Rogue, Wizard, or Arcane Trickster?


Advice


I am trying to cook up a character concept for an upcoming pathfinder game. An AP, but I won't say which one. There may be jungle involved, but I'm not telling. (No spoilers, please)

The party is looking like a cleric, a bard, and a ranger, my character would be the fourth slot. An urban ranger is probably unlikely (see above about jungle).

None of the three options would be the party face - the bard is covering that. Any of the three might be the party scout and/or trap disabler - sort of an all around problem-solver.

My first thought was an Arcane Trickster, and so far this is the only backstory that is finished (but others won't be a big deal - they are fun in and of themselves). I am trying to think about it mechanically in a "fits best with party" way.

The party is missing an arcanist, a rogue, and possibly a frontline fighter-type.

The wizard would be a pretty bog-standard teleporter or fire mage with a few ranks of stealth. Your usual batman with fireballs type. Probably stocking up on dispels to deal with the odd magical trap here and there.

The rogue would be a rambo-type - high dex, lots of sneak attack dice, and beelining for two weapon fighting, befuddling strike, finesse, and crippling strike at level 10. Probably dispelling strike around level 12. A very in-the-thick of it front line rogue - going for the feint line, too (there is a house rule to make imp feint a swift action and i think greater a free action, so a feint and full attack is possible in the same round).

Human, so probably favored class points to hp, as well as toughness and some con, so probably on-par hp to the ranger.

The Trickster would be your standard vanishing/invisible sneak attacker with rays and touch attacks, but fragile. Probably more of a ranged character relying on things like acid splash in combat, going for an invisible sniper later. I've been offered the most in house rules here to try to make it work, including practiced spellcaster (+4 caster levels up to current hit die) and the allowance to allow wizard school powers to progress along *caster levels* not wizard levels. So, the AT would cast at-level, and have school powers (probably teleportation) as a same level wizard would.

Seems to me that the AT still feels a bit weak - the BaB hurts.

My biggest worry is not being a dead weight in combat. Well, and feeling like an especially big drag between say levels 4 and 8.

25 point buy, 2 traits allowed:

Human rogue starting stats:
STR: 10 DEX: 20 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
Target Feats: full TWF and feint trees, toughness
Talents: Befuddling Strike, Crippling Strike, finesse, minor/major magic and dispelling strike.
Skills: acrobatics, bluff, disable device, perception, stealth, Escape artist, sense motive, sleight of hand - possibly survival through a trait.
Favored class into hp

Elf Arcane Trickster stats:
STR: 8 DEX: 18 CON: 10 INT: 18 WIS: 14 CHA: 10
Target feats: point blank shot, precise shot, skill focus stealth, perception practiced spellcaster, toughness

Talents: probably fast stealth, or a combat feat.
Skills: acrobatics, bluff, disable device, knowledge arcana, perception, spellcraft, stealth.
Half ranks (roughly): Escape artist, sense motive, sleight of hand

Human Wizard:
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 8

Feats: your usual metamagic, toughness. Possibly some crafting feats.
Favored class into HP
Skills - spellcraft, knowledge arcana, stealth, perception, disable device. (but no trapfinding), with some leftover points I'll sort out later.

As you can see the bog-standard wizard is probably the least thought-out. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.


Arcane trickster is a prestige class. You'd have to spend your first six levels as a 3/3 rog/wiz.


Yes, sorry that wasn't clear - hence the worry about weakness between levels 4 and 8. You'll have to forgive me for thinking of him as a trickster from the get-go, though. Taking AT at level 7 and sticking with it to 16.

Final target for the AT would be rog 3/wiz 3/AT 10 at level 16.

Assume anything else not mentioned as a house rule are rules-as-written.


ph0rk wrote:


The party is looking like a cleric, a bard, and a ranger, my character would be the fourth slot.

Many of these don't tell enough of the story.

The cleric. Heavy armor melee?

Ranger. TWF or archery?

Bard. Any focus?

Rather than the classes involved, why don't we see what roles that they figure are covered.

I tend to like the following human rogue, and perhaps you might as well. I've only used 1 trait and only 15pt buy, so you can increase both of these.

Human Rogue(master trapsmith)9/ShadowDancer3

STR 10 (0pts)
INT 07 (-4pts)
WIS 14 (5pts)
DEX 19 (13pts, +2 racial then all stat bumps)
CON 14 (5pts)
CHA 07 (-4pts)

That's only 15pts, so you can expand from there. From your post you'd have 10pts more, so if a stat is too low you have plenty of room to increase it...

Favored class: rogue (6 into an extra talent, other 3 into skills as the build 'caps' at rogue 9)
Traits: Heirloom weapon (flying talon)
Feats (including bonus via talents): Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Mobility, Skill Focus: Stealth, Hellcat Stealth, Combat Patrol, EWP: Flying Talon, Look out.
Talents: Finesse Rogue (weapon finesse), trap spotter, fast stealth, slow reactions, combat trick (EWP: flying talon), quick disable (or stand up, or offensive defense)

Skills: (max) Stealth, Perception, Disable Device, Acrobatics, Slieght of Hand. Other two+ skills/level salt to taste (UMD, 2ranks dance for PrC, etc).

The cornerstone here is being unseen with combat patrol wielding a finessible reach weapon.

Shadowdancer picks up uncanny dodge for you, while the rogue variant traded in the rogue versions for better disarming and bypassing of traps.

This should handle a reasonable melee fighter that can handle traps. When the enemy closes on another you'll likely get to smack them so that they could walk away (no AOO from slow reactions) and throw a spell, etc.

-James


My vote would be for the Arcane Trickster, but with some changes to the stats. STR 14, DEX 18, CON 10, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 8. You are an Elf so you can use a long bow for combat even though none of your classes give martial weapon proficiency, so use it. Take Deadly Aim which should also be able to be used with ranged touch attack spells. Take the Talent Magical Knack to boost your caster level instead of Practiced Spell caster. You will lose one level of a caster level, but it will save a feat.

As long as you are playing a Wizard for the arcane spell casting an Arcane Trickster will not be that far behind power. The house rules you are playing under make it even better. Don't compare the Arcane Trickster to a Fighter or even a Rogue, compare him to the spell caster.

Silver Crusade

Wizard with two levels of rogue is your best if your going to be a primary caster. AT is a ok, but you don't realy get any thing that realy helps your spell casting. The only thing I can suggest to you is.
Starting with a Dex12 and Con16 will help you alot more. Unless your going AT and will have a lower Int.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

My vote would be for the Arcane Trickster, but with some changes to the stats. STR 14, DEX 18, CON 10, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 8. You are an Elf so you can use a long bow for combat even though none of your classes give martial weapon proficiency, so use it. Take Deadly Aim which should also be able to be used with ranged touch attack spells. Take the Talent Magical Knack to boost your caster level instead of Practiced Spell caster. You will lose one level of a caster level, but it will save a feat.

As long as you are playing a Wizard for the arcane spell casting an Arcane Trickster will not be that far behind power. The house rules you are playing under make it even better. Don't compare the Arcane Trickster to a Fighter or even a Rogue, compare him to the spell caster.

Why the strength, just for bow damage, or to carry loot? (hah). So not having weapon finesse doesn't hurt?

Feat-wise, I'm not really certain why I'd need to conserve them, as at level 10 there would be five (plus one from the rogue talent, if need be). Of course, I don't have much of a plan for feats beyond point blank, precise shot, practiced spellcaster, and toughness. Some metamagic to help with the lack of ray spells might help. I've already checked and sniper goggles are o.k. when the character could normally afford them, so rays will be big fun. Arcane blast will probably be a must, too.

My understanding is the AP goes to level 18, so there are potentially 4 levels of rogue to be taken, hence practiced spellcaster over magical knack, though who knows what I'll think about those last couple levels at 16-18.

@Calagnar: I suppose 2 levels of rogue would get the same thing done more or less, though with the houserules offered I'd have a reduced spell slot progression without the compensation of sneak attack dice.

The other big question is with any multiclass scenario what order to take levels in - rogue first and get magicky later? This makes sense from a purely capable-in-combat perspective, but I hate the idea of not having access to spells. Perhaps some reworking of the backstory could cover that, maybe the arcane is something he'll discover along the way.

james maissen wrote:
ph0rk wrote:


The party is looking like a cleric, a bard, and a ranger, my character would be the fourth slot.

Many of these don't tell enough of the story.

The cleric. Heavy armor melee?

Ranger. TWF or archery?

Bard. Any focus?

Rather than the classes involved, why don't we see what roles that they figure are covered.

As I understand it the others are as up in the air as my concept is. Both the Cleric and Ranger are "I've never played a...", but I expect both may be melee.

Silver Crusade

The only reason for two levels of rogue is to get evasion. Other then that one level of rogue will get you every thing you need. If you are going with a caster base sneak attack damage is useless to you. I can tell you from past exp. that wizards with two levels of rogue make realy good skill base class. That only loses a little spell casting power.

Elf Wizard(Enchantment School, Manipulator School, or Universalist School)/Rogue
Casting focused with skills
level class
1 Wizard
2 Rogue
3-6 Wizard
7 Rogue
8+ Wizard
Str8 Dex16(14+2) Con14(16-2) Int19(17+2) Wis10 Cha9
Feet:
1: Spell Focus: Enchantment
3: Spell Focus: Transmutation
5: Greater Spell Focuse: Enchantment
7: Intensified Spell
9: Persistent Spell
11: Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation
Skills:
Acrobatics(a few points wont hurt),Disable Device(keap maxed out), Linguistics (Very usefull skill to have.), Perception(Keap maxed out), Spellcraft(Keap maxed out.), Stealth(Keap maxed out.)
There are only 4 skills you have to keap maxed. And you have 5 skill points a level as a wizard and meny more as a rogue. Just rember there is a bard in the party so. I wold lean more to the rogue skills then the knowlage skills. And let the bard do his thing.


ph0rk wrote:
The party is looking like a cleric, a bard, and a ranger, my character would be the fourth slot.

PF requirements for trap finding are pretty low. You only need to be a rogue to *disable* magic traps. You can still find magic traps without any special abilities. There's also a lot of ways to push your perception to insane levels. Consider suggesting to the ranger to optimize perception (with feats, items, etc). Rangers also make fine sneaky scouts and fine supporting melee/ranged attackers.

The bard makes a fine arcanist substitute. He would have to design his character around the concept of being the primary arcane caster, but it's very possible and doable. They get AoE damage spells and strong enchantment spells.

Your party really needs a front line melee character. I'd heavily suggest fighter, barbarian, paladin, or cavalier. If you don't get one, expect to have quite a few issues. . .


I have played "In a jungle". My wife plays/played a tiefling AT, and does quite well. Might be spoilerish, but after my experience, I DO NO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE RECOMMEND OR APPROVE OF A MARTIAL ROGUE IN "IN A JUNGLE".

That said, you want a caster more than a rogue, but a rogue have several uses, and you want awesome perception, so it is not a bad choice. Just ditch your Cha to get Con. You want Con "in a jungle", trust me. Trap Spotting can be very useful early on and late.

Also, calagnar's build is not very good "in a jungle"... as the player's guide states, enchantment is kinda weak "in a jungle".


I'm playing an AT in training (rog2/wiz1) at the moment. I figure I'll take a level of wiz at second level then rog up to rog3/wiz1 then finish off the necessary wiz levels. Rogue types have a lot more survivability at lower levels. Then you can gear toward caster as you level up.


Kamelguru wrote:
as the player's guide states, enchantment is kinda weak "in a jungle".

That's odd, most of the creatures in the Jungle (Warm Forest) encounter table can be affected by compulsion enchantment spells. . . certainly not all of them, but at least the majority can. . .


meabolex wrote:
Kamelguru wrote:
as the player's guide states, enchantment is kinda weak "in a jungle".
That's odd, most of the creatures in the Jungle (Warm Forest) encounter table can be affected by compulsion enchantment spells. . . certainly not all of them, but at least the majority can. . .

I'd prefer not to get into an in-depth discussion of the AP, but the players guide specifically states not a lot of enemies around susceptible to mind-affecting spells.

The PG mentions giant vermin and plants, but I'm guessing there will be a fair share of undead and the like, too.

Not a big worry, I have to pick two schools as opposition anyway, and enchantment would be high on the list, possibly followed by necromancy (despite losing a few nice touch spells).


D: All of the above


Still think you should do a front-line melee, but we'll see (:


I say summoner. You gets lots of wizard utility type spells and buffs with a pet to act as a tank.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Take Deadly Aim which should also be able to be used with ranged touch attack spells.

Deadly Aim specifically doesn't work with touch attacks.

I personally like AT, but it takes a long time to pay off. The capstone ability is pretty good though, at level 16 you can actually do respectable direct damage by adding 7d6 to everything while invisible.

Example: intensified empowered fireball will do either 15d6*1.5 + 7d6 (average 103.25) or 22d6*1.5 (average 115.5) depending on how your GM rules the sneak attack damage to work with Empower Spell. Most APs have many fights against hordes of lesser foes where direct damage is very effective.

The tricky part is getting there, levels 4-8 will be a pain. Also, 4 skill points a level hurts if the party expects you to be the skill monkey. I recommend for "in a jungle" you go rogue for levels 1-3, the do your three levels of wizard second. trying to split early is a recipe for disaster.

Until you get the capstone ability expect scorching ray to be your bread and butter go-to spell. Maybe Ultimate Magic will have some more ranged touch type spells.

Silver Crusade

All of the arcane schools should be equally useful throughout the Serpent’s Skull Adventure Path, with the possible exception of enchanters, who may be periodically frustrated at the number of creatures like giant vermin or plants who are immune to mind-affecting magic.
So it will work most of the time. Just there will be some times when it dose not work. Enchantment is a very powerfull when it works. Well worth it not working some of the time.

I will never recomend any arcane caster to be foced on damage spells. You are much better off focusing on crowed control and party buffing.
The spell I use most as a caster is only level 2. I start 70% of all fights with it. Web is the great equlizer. It can stop them from advancing or runing depending on where you place it. In a jungle seting with all the trees around that means it can go up any where. Other then that most spells should focuse on controling the flow of battle web just hapens to be low level so its cheap to cast. Higher level spells like charm monster not only remove them but turn them to your side. And spells like Baleful Polymroph and Flesh to Stone do the same thing remove targets with low level spell slots. At higher level taking highten is not a bad idea but over all being able to use lower level spell slots with good control spells is a good plan.

Looked up some traits:
Two-World Magic: (Sargava,The Lost Colony) Select one 0 level spell from a class spell list other then your own. This spell is a 0 level spell on your class spell list. (Stabilize, or Know Direction)
Mwangi Scholar: You gain Polyglot as a bonus language and receive a +1 trait bonus on all Knowledge (history) checks regarding the Mwangi Expanse.

Liberty's Edge

Personally, if you're going arcane trickster consider wiz 4, rogue 1, assassin 1. It saves you a caster level (costs you BAB, but oh well.)


With those feinting rules in play, it sounds like even if your party lacks a consistent flanking buddy, your Rogue could do a solid job, and it's always fun to have a Bard buffing you.

I'm inclined toward AT, and it sounds like a fairly solid party that could get you over the multiclassing hump.


I'm good with arcane trickster myself -- for lower levels chill touch can give you a good set up for decent damage and nice secondary effects.

Vanish is a good spell to take.

I like:

wizard 6, rogue 1, master spy 1

or

wizard 4, rogue 1, assassin 1

for lead in.

Skill choice and the first rogue level really make up the feel of an arcane trickster -- as does spell selection -- as such getting into the prestige class is nice, but not immediately mandatory.

If you have a choice the aberrant sorcerer does make a solid arcane trickster due to your ability to flank from farther out -- combined with gang up and lunge you could be flanking from 20 feet away. Doing so as a human will help make up for a few spells -- but not many.


The reason I suggested the higher STR is it is overall more useful. You already have a party face so you can skip the social skills. STR will give you more damage both with a bow and in Melee, Improve your chance to Hit, allow you to carry more loot, and give a bonus on both climb and swim.

As for the feats I have never had a problem finding useful feats to pick up. Most of the times I am always wanting a few more. A couple I would recommend would be Extra Rogue Talents, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus just to name a few.

Always go for the class that gives you the most combat abilities first. This will keep you alive long enough to get to where you need to be. Also remember that even before you are an Arcane Trickster you can still cast spells. You can also still sneak attack with them.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The reason I suggested the higher STR is it is overall more useful. You already have a party face so you can skip the social skills. STR will give you more damage both with a bow and in Melee, Improve your chance to Hit, allow you to carry more loot, and give a bonus on both climb and swim.

As for the feats I have never had a problem finding useful feats to pick up. Most of the times I am always wanting a few more. A couple I would recommend would be Extra Rogue Talents, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus just to name a few.

Always go for the class that gives you the most combat abilities first. This will keep you alive long enough to get to where you need to be. Also remember that even before you are an Arcane Trickster you can still cast spells. You can also still sneak attack with them.

Better to get weapon finesse, as 2 points of damage whenever he uses a physical attack (which should not be often for an AT beyond low level) is rather paltry. Con is more important.

@Calagnar: I have played through parts 1-3, and started on 4. Enchantment is useful at times, but through part 3, and from what I understand about 4-6, it is less and less useful. The standard enemy race after level 8 is immune to mind-affecting. Great to have on the first half, completely useless on second. For an AT, I would take it as an opposition school, probably alongside abjuration (since there is a cleric that can cover it) and get color spray for low levels instead of sleep.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
Personally, if you're going arcane trickster consider wiz 4, rogue 1, assassin 1. It saves you a caster level (costs you BAB, but oh well.)

Some folks might balk at the evil requirement though.


LazarX wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Personally, if you're going arcane trickster consider wiz 4, rogue 1, assassin 1. It saves you a caster level (costs you BAB, but oh well.)
Some folks might balk at the evil requirement though.

My DM certainly will. He knows I tend to ride the CN line as it is anyway.

OTOH, I think I can talk him into letting me use some of Ultimate Magic when it is out, I don't think we'll be starting for a couple weeks.


Abraham spalding wrote:

...

If you have a choice the aberrant sorcerer does make a solid arcane trickster due to your ability to flank from farther out -- combined with gang up and lunge you could be flanking from 20 feet away. Doing so as a human will help make up for a few spells -- but not many.

"Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area."

"Flanking: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
...
...
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus."

I had been all excited for the idea of flanking from outside melee, but then I actually read it. As it reads, it only applies to melee touch attacks, and it does not increase your threatened area. Without the increased threatened area, you cannot provide flanking.

Grand Lodge

Why not Vivisectionist Alchemist, instead of Rogue?

The synergy is good, and you won't have the crippling drawback of being a Rogue.


The benefit of Arcane Trickster is disarming traps at a distance. That can be extremely handy. If you choose Offensive Defense and go with Improved Feint then you also get an armor class bonus every time you sneak attack... and could feint every round. At 16th level that'd be 7d6 sneak attack damage, so a +7 to your armor.

Alternatively, you could go for the ranged attacks and could even use the level 2 Rogue Talent to get a Combat Feat and build toward an archer rogue.


Regarding the arcane trickster build, this thread might help:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n7bi?Whats-the-least-painful-path-towards-Arca ne

Particularly, as I suspect you will be playing in Golarion, thus potentially putting Inner Sea Magic into "play", look at post 85 ...

Silver Crusade

OK I did not even look at comments, only at you title. I vote Wizard

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