Guide to the Class Guides


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

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Broken Zenith wrote:

Great, added.

Comprehensive Guide to the Guides

This is post 751. I figured I'd make sure this was on the top of the current page of the thread.


Rogue Eidolon's guide to fighters link no longer works, either at Zenith or in this Guide to the guides. It something about google drive removing the entire document and Rogue Eidolon doesn't have the document backed up anywhere else. I found it in PDF format in another place and here is the link: Rogue Eidolon's guide to fighters


There are some serious issues with vandalism in a number of the guides that have been posted, esp. the ones that are hosted on Googledocs and are comment-able.

I mention this so that the authors can do some double-checking if necessary.


Can you name specific guides, please?


Bodhizen wrote:
Can you name specific guides, please?

* Professor Q's Guide to the Core+ Wizard

* The Complete Professor Q's Guide to the Wizard
* The Inner Power: A Guide for Sorcerers

are the ones I noticed offhand.

Shadow Lodge

@ Kerney: Good idea, thanks for that.

@ Lifat: Interesting, I wonder why that is happening. I've edited the link, thanks for that. I'll go through and pdf the documents for backups in the future I suppose.

@ Orfamay: Huh, I've never noticed that before. Something people can do is change "suggesting" to "viewing" in the tool bar when looking at these documents. That will remove all the comments.


Broken Zenith wrote:


@ Orfamay: Huh, I've never noticed that before. Something people can do is change "suggesting" to "viewing" in the tool bar when looking at these documents. That will remove all the comments.

Yeah, I finally figured that out myself. But in the interests of as much readership as possible, I still figured the guide authors would want to take a hand.


Mystic Theurge:

I have been play testing Mystic Theurge builds for about a year. There are in essence two decent/good builds.

1) focus on cleric spells
2) focus on wizard spells

The best class build I have found is:

Mystic Theurges always fight defensively and only cast attack spells that do not require attack rolls, such as (acid) burning hands / (acid) fireball, (acid) flaming sphere, magic missile, etc.

1 level dip spire defender (magus): +int to concentration (this is why magus: if you think your GM will not target you - the caster - then don't bother with magus) + dodge feat (+1 AC) + combat expertise (+1 AC +1 additional AC/4 BAB when fighting defensively) + exotic weapon focus (nine section whip: +1 AC when fighting defensively) + (always chose feather fall as one of the magus' spells)

1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer (orc / dragon (acid)) +2 damage per dice rolled when casting acid spells

1 level dip into cleric (trickery / travel) (+10 movement)

1 level dip into admixture wizard (able to change normal spells into acid spells, +1 damage when casting acid spells)

Mystic Theurge 1-10

Then more of either wizard or cleric until Level 20.

I know the build above looks dumb, but in my current L11 group, my MT has the 2nd highest AC (before combat buffs) and does the most DPR... by a lot.

*** I am currently exploring the ?maybe? brokenness of Aasimar: Oracle 3, Cleric 1, Inquisitor 1, Hellknight Enforcer 1 (Warrior Priest feat: cleric, oracle, inquisitor), Evangelist 10 (Hellknight Enforcer), then more Oracle build.


Mapleswitch wrote:

Mystic Theurge:

I have been play testing Mystic Theurge builds for about a year. There are in essence two decent/good builds.

1) focus on cleric spells
2) focus on wizard spells

The best class build I have found is:

Mystic Theurges always fight defensively and only cast attack spells that do not require attack rolls, such as (acid) burning hands / (acid) fireball, (acid) flaming sphere, magic missile, etc.

1 level dip spire defender (magus): +int to concentration (this is why magus: if you think your GM will not target you - the caster - then don't bother with magus) + dodge feat (+1 AC) + combat expertise (+1 AC +1 additional AC/4 BAB when fighting defensively) + exotic weapon focus (nine section whip: +1 AC when fighting defensively) + (always chose feather fall as one of the magus' spells)

1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer (orc / dragon (acid)) +2 damage per dice rolled when casting acid spells

1 level dip into cleric (trickery / travel) (+10 movement)

1 level dip into admixture wizard (able to change normal spells into acid spells, +1 damage when casting acid spells)

Mystic Theurge 1-10

Then more of either wizard or cleric until Level 20.

I know the build above looks dumb, but in my current L11 group, my MT has the 2nd highest AC (before combat buffs) and does the most DPR... by a lot.

*** I am currently exploring the ?maybe? brokenness of Aasimar: Oracle 3, Cleric 1, Inquisitor 1, Hellknight Enforcer 1 (Warrior Priest feat: cleric, oracle, inquisitor), Evangelist 10 (Hellknight Enforcer), then more Oracle build.

What the heck are the other people in your group doing if the Mystic Theurge has the second highest unbuffed AC?


What the heck are they doing if the Mystic Theurge has the highest DPR? By that point in the game, level 11, I'd expect a martial to be swinging for something like +25 per hit at the very least. I mean, Power Attack alone will account for +6-+9 damage, and ability scores should be between a 22 and 26 for a +6 up to a +12 damage modifier (depending on 2-hand). I mean, with the 22 strength and 2-handing, you're looking at +9 from strength, +9 from power attack for a +18 damage in that alone. With a +2 - +3 weapon and a +3 damage bonus from class features (on the low side), you're looking at a guy doing +23 at a kind of bare minimum. Higher optimization, or better classes (Barbarian, Paladin, I'm looking at you) will push this damage per hit up into the 30s, sometimes even the 40s. That's not even taking into account critical hits.

On the caster side, at 11th level with 3 level dips, you're looking at a Wizard caster level of 8, 10 with a trait and 11 with an ioun stone. But using the CL 8, you're looking at a a Fireball of 8d6+17 points of damage, for an average of 45 in a single blast. Even if you had the trait, so you deal 10d6+21 for an average of 56 points of damage, you're only slightly better on a single hit.

The Martial, at this point, should have a DPR of around 60 per round, factoring in criticals. Why? Because he has 3 attacks each round and 2 of them should hit, DPR goes up if he is hasted to around 90ish (all just guestimates). With just two hits and no crit, yes, the caster does more damage on average, but the caster isn't capable of tossing pumped up acid balls each round either.

It doesn't matter if the enemy has 1 HP or 3,000, he's a threat until he's dead or disabled. As long as he can take actions, he's a threat. So spreading 250 points of damage amongst 7 guys with 100 HP each means you've only singed them a little.

It's also worth noting, the more buffs you add to the martial, the more his damage increases, where as your acid ball doesn't.

Sounds to me like you've optimized the Mystic Theurge for blasting as best you can, and are playing in a party of people who don't know how to play competent (note, I didn't say optimized), martials.


Tels wrote:

What the heck are they doing if the Mystic Theurge has the highest DPR? By that point in the game, level 11, I'd expect a martial to be swinging for something like +25 per hit at the very least. I mean, Power Attack alone will account for +6-+9 damage, and ability scores should be between a 22 and 26 for a +6 up to a +12 damage modifier (depending on 2-hand). I mean, with the 22 strength and 2-handing, you're looking at +9 from strength, +9 from power attack for a +18 damage in that alone. With a +2 - +3 weapon and a +3 damage bonus from class features (on the low side), you're looking at a guy doing +23 at a kind of bare minimum. Higher optimization, or better classes (Barbarian, Paladin, I'm looking at you) will push this damage per hit up into the 30s, sometimes even the 40s. That's not even taking into account critical hits.

On the caster side, at 11th level with 3 level dips, you're looking at a Wizard caster level of 8, 10 with a trait and 11 with an ioun stone. But using the CL 8, you're looking at a a Fireball of 8d6+17 points of damage, for an average of 45 in a single blast. Even if you had the trait, so you deal 10d6+21 for an average of 56 points of damage, you're only slightly better on a single hit.

The Martial, at this point, should have a DPR of around 60 per round, factoring in criticals. Why? Because he has 3 attacks each round and 2 of them should hit, DPR goes up if he is hasted to around 90ish (all just guestimates). With just two hits and no crit, yes, the caster does more damage on average, but the caster isn't capable of tossing pumped up acid balls each round either.

It doesn't matter if the enemy has 1 HP or 3,000, he's a threat until he's dead or disabled. As long as he can take actions, he's a threat. So spreading 250 points of damage amongst 7 guys with 100 HP each means you've only singed them a little.

It's also worth noting, the more buffs you add to the martial, the more his damage increases, where as your acid ball doesn't.

Sounds to me like you've optimized the...

Some groups play differently. Some groups have mechanics mastered, group tactics flow, and everyone's characters are built to be good at their job.

However some groups also have to look up every rule every game, just hit things with a stick or boom spell, and have very poorly made characters.

In 3.5 we had a player who played a sorcerer who wielded a ork double waraxe, and charged into combat with two weapon fighting, who was not even specialized in transmutation... needless to say it was not very effective


If I was considering creating a guide what medium would be the best to do so?


Undone wrote:
If I was considering creating a guide what medium would be the best to do so?

Which ever is easier for you to work in.

Google docs(drive) is stanadard and available to everyone.

I've swtched to Word2007 saved into PDF's which make it easier to download.

You can also just make your own website or blog entry which some people have take to use as well.

The idea is just to make the information easy to view and digest. If it's a lot of information than a reference system is necessary as well.


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Here it is a new guide for Warpriest! http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri77?Warpriest-guide-Fight-for-your-god
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fAITTzF0hu2mCB-_5vSJGw697JGdSXIOWy9VMp5 wyzY/pub

Shadow Lodge

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Nymor wrote:

Here it is a new guide for Warpriest! http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri77?Warpriest-guide-Fight-for-your-god

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fAITTzF0hu2mCB-_5vSJGw697JGdSXIOWy9VMp5 wyzY/pub

Added! Our first war priest guide, and it looks good!

Guide to the Guides


I made a half silly/half serious optimization guide to Commoners 'You're Gonna Die Screaming' - it's pay what you want (including free) http://www.rpgnow.com/product/137721?affiliate_id=34429&src=PAIZO I would love to get it added to your pretty awesome list - thanks for doing all this curatorial work on this.


I remember some months ago a guide to Deific Obedience and the prestige classes of Inner Sea Gods, but can't find it.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alaryth wrote:
I remember some months ago a guide to Deific Obedience and the prestige classes of Inner Sea Gods, but can't find it.

What you're looking for is: Walter's Guide to Deific Obediences.

Meanwhile, I have a question. We've got a guide for animal companions in PFS called Druid's Log: Animal Companions but the very active discussion thread for this is in the Pathfinder Society General Discussion forum. Will this discussion thread do for the purposes of getting the guide listed?

Hmm

Shadow Lodge

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Certainly Hmm, added.

Guide to the Guides


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Wrote up a guide to the Swashbuckler, which I feel is worth posting now:

The Dashing Daring Dandy's Dragoman

Discussion thread is here.


Not by me, but the Arcanist Guide:

Discussion: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rk8j?Arcanist-Optimization-Guide

Guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19eADtzhxjNq8n8esfos6gnmotwPAIFot-ouLztu QtqA/pub

Shadow Lodge

Added both. We are looking nice and rounded out now!

Guide to the Guides


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I have written guides about Teamwork Feats and Pets as well as Lighting, Stealth, and the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Also, my essay about Poisons is both a guide and an interpolation for house rules.

Shadow Lodge

davidvs wrote:

I have written guides about Teamwork Feats and Pets as well as Lighting, Stealth, and the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Also, my essay about Poisons is both a guide and an interpolation for house rules.

Looks interesting. Do you have a discussion page for the Teamwork/Stealth guides?


Yes. Each guide has a link to its own discussion page, at the conclusion of the introductory blockquote box.

Shadow Lodge

Great! Added! The Poisons article is interesting, but it is more house rules than guide.

Guide to the Guides


Broken Zenith wrote:

Great! Added! The Poisons article is interesting, but it is more house rules than guide.

Guide to the Guides

Agreed. That essay was written after the APG was published, and now only describes "traditional and obvious" choices.

I am busy working on my two-player, diceless rpg and do not have time now to update it to incorporate the newer options for poison-using characters. Nor have I ever seen a poison-using Pathfinder PC at the table. Hopefully others will help, in its discussion thread.


DMDM has been busy with discussions:

And Hell Followed With Him: DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist
Part 1 Building a Diabolist
Part 2 Tips on playing a Diabolist
Part 3 Lesser Planar Binding
Part 4 Planar Binding
Part 5 Greater Planar Binding
Part 6 Schools and Spells
Part 7 Good magic items for Diabolists
Part 8 Races, Class Attributes, and Why Planar Ally isn't very good
Part 9 Introduction to conjuring for diabolists

And a spinoff from the above:
DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding

/cevah

Shadow Lodge

Woah - any idea if DMDM has edited these and put them in a single google Doc somewhere?


I think I read somewhere that he planed to make a googledoc next weekend. But that was back in April. Best ask direct, and until then, perhaps list is as "DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)".

List the planar guide on another line, perhaps with "DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding (general LPB PB GPB)"

/cevah

Shadow Lodge

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PM'ed Doug, he'll have it together as one document within the next few days. I'll put it on the Guide to the Guides then.


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Here it is a new one about the Investigator, just found on the forum:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rl8v?Being-Sherlock-Holmes-A-Gentlemans-Guide- to
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7qOxrojdxI9WjdWZDJlRHBRdlU/view

Shadow Lodge

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Great, got both the Diabolist guide up and the Investigator Guide up.

Guide to the Guides


The Guide to the Diabolist is up. In a little while I'll post a revised version, incorporating comments and fixing the little issue with the block text. The comments thread can be found here.

The Guide to Planar Binding should be up next week -- it's quite large, as it includes about 20 pages of things you can call up and bind.

Many thanks to Broken Zenith for posting and linking!

Doug M.

Sovereign Court

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I've got one for the Shaman: The Seer's Catalog. It's a list of all the spirits, including spirit spells, spirit hexes, and regular and greater spirit abilities. Should be handy for anyone who wants to get good use out of Wandering Spirit. Printable!

Also includes a list of the feats available to Shamans that boost hexes, the list of standard Shaman hexes, and links to/names of the standard Witch hexes. Had to cut out some of the Spirit Animal abilities and whatnot to save space, though.

Shadow Lodge

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Great, I've added the Seer's Catalog. Can you also make a discussion page on the forums to get feedback?

On a side note, we only need these to complete the new classes: Brawler, Hunter, Skald, and Slayer

Guide to the Guides

Sovereign Court

Sure, sure. Here's a discussion thread for the Catalog.


Is it just me or is the complete wizard by professor Q all messed up?

The whole thing reads as a strike through and all the formatting is messed up for me...

Shadow Lodge

klevis69 wrote:

Is it just me or is the complete wizard by professor Q all messed up?

The whole thing reads as a strike through and all the formatting is messed up for me...

Yeah, somebody is vandalizing it. Right below "Share" you should see a green box. Click it then choose "Viewing." That should fix the issues.


Is there a Slayer guide in progress anywhere?


Broken Zenith wrote:
klevis69 wrote:

Is it just me or is the complete wizard by professor Q all messed up?

The whole thing reads as a strike through and all the formatting is messed up for me...

Yeah, somebody is vandalizing it. Right below "Share" you should see a green box. Click it then choose "Viewing." That should fix the issues.

There's aso a working link to the pdf version in the first post of the discussion thread. Might want to add that to the guid to the guides until the google version is fixed.


Oterisk's guide to the Dragon Disciple now includes AGC.


Brawler Guide, work in progress.

Lantern Lodge

Poison guide started, though far from finished, will continue to work on it :).

Going in Against a Sicilian When Death is on the Line: A Guide to Poisons
Google Docs Format
Thread


Okay, the revised 2.0 version of the Guide to the Diabolist is up. This is getting really long, so I don't think I'll be doing a 3.0 any time soon. Many thanks to everyone who commented!

DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist, Revised Version 2.0

Thread on the Advice forum

Doug M.

Shadow Lodge

All added!

Guide to the Guides


Secret Wizard wrote:
Brawler Guide, work in progress.

Is there a discussion thread?


Backlash3906 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Brawler Guide, work in progress.
Is there a discussion thread?

Yeah, I linked it in the guide! The thread is around here somewhere too.


Any guides out there for the new hybrid classes?


Ooops! My bad! Looks like some guides on the new hybrid classes have already been put out over yonder: Zenith Games

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