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Magic Item Calculation and "continuous" items


Rules Questions


Recently in my regular game, I lost a player who was the group healer. Usually, I like to add accommodations to compensate for this so no one has to feel they "have to" play a healer to support other players.

One of my players decided he wanted to create a gem with a command word, which casts Cure moderate wounds with unlimited charges. Looking at the rules, I don't see where an item could not be made on the cheap but my GM "spidy-sense" is going off. It doesn't seem balanced.

It would translate into a instant heal the entire group item at downtimes (when the PCs are not in combat)and a dam good 2d8+3 healing for standard action while in combat. If i let them create one, they will create one for each person in the group (command word activated).

So, am I looking at this wrong or should I make a judgment call like

"any item with a Duration: "instantaneous" effect is not eligible for unlimited charge items."

thanks in advance!


Basically the Magic item creation rules are guidelines. In many cases they work in othrs its useful to compare your item. in yet other cases there is no item to Compare it to.

In regards to an infinate heal Gem the problem isnt an issue in Combat. In which case it is probably Okay. The problem is out of combat. Your whole party will be healed 100% after every fight.

I cannot say wether this is good or bad but It does change the Encounter Dynamic quite a Bit. I wouldnt allow it int he Game i Dm.

You could Price out a Gem shaped Staff item though that only has 1 spell and follows the staff rules otherwise.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Well, assuming you use the general magic rules -

2 * 3 * 1,800 * 2 = 21,600 gp
2 level spell * 3rd level caster * command word * no space limitation

Then I would add the caveat that you need to have the stone in your possession for 24-hr (or 1 week like ring of sustenance) so that they would need one for each person.

Which means that by the character wealth by level, the earliest a character should have such a gem is 9th level (for a PC).

I don't know if I would allow it, but it's not horrible. (For reference, it puts it around a pearly white ioun stone - which regenerates 1 hp per 10 minutes). So you might what to bump it up to 25,000 gp - probably not more than that because it does require you to use an action.

I'm not great at figuring out balance.

Sovereign Court

Hi, devious player here :P

So a few more details about the particular situation, we're a 5th level party, we have around 11th level character wealth (but we do go up against CR 11 encounters at 5th lvl, (2d6+6 stats - re-roll 1's, half or better hp, +6 hp at first lvl),

The party's main fighter already has a ring of vampirisim that returns half the damage she deals as hp so their never hurting for hp, (has some drawbacks though, our GM loves items with drawbacks - similar to a certain healing staff that existed in the party before we had the healer that corrupted us when we used it :P )

Also, we've made it into an amulet instead of just a stone, so that it does take a body slot

We've got as large of a party as 10 (plus DM) if everyone were to show up at once, (which hasn't happened yet (8's been max so far)), but we more typically have about 4 at a time. A witch with the healing hex and cure light wounds is the only source of healing spells from the party.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
DM Nickademus wrote:

So, am I looking at this wrong or should I make a judgment call like

"any item with a Duration: "instantaneous" effect is not eligible for unlimited charge items."

thanks in advance!

On this table "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values", there's a footnote for increasing magic item costs based on spell duration. The factor for a spell whose duration is rounds/level is x4, but nothing is listed for an instantaneous effect.

Given this, I would go with the listing under 'Special' - 'Charges per day' and assume the base price at 5 uses per day. The example from the chart for this method is the Boots of Teleportation which seems to fit for an instantaneous spell such as a healing spell.

So 2nd level spell, 3rd caster level, command word activated, and using up a body slot would cost: 2*3*1800 = 10,800gp and could be used 5 times per day.

I wouldn't allow a healing item to be used an unlimited amount of times per day (and no such item exists in the current rules). I think this is a pretty good compromise and seems to follow the magic item creation rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber
Eric Tillemans wrote:


On this table "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values", there's a footnote for increasing magic item costs based on spell duration. The factor for a spell whose duration is rounds/level is x4, but nothing is listed for an instantaneous effect.

Given this, I would go with the listing under 'Special' - 'Charges per day' and assume the base price at 5 uses per day. The example from the chart for this method is the Boots of Teleportation which seems to fit for an instantaneous spell such as a healing spell.

So 2nd level spell, 3rd caster level, command word activated, and using up a body slot would cost: 2*3*1800 = 10,800gp and could be used 5 times per day.

I wouldn't allow a healing item to be used an unlimited amount of times per day (and no such item exists in the current rules). I think this is a pretty good compromise and seems to follow the magic item creation rules.

Except that there are unlimited healing items in the game - I just was looking at the wrong one.

Or you assume that 'unlimited' times per day is 50 (or 100).

(2nd level spell * 3rd level caster * command activated) / (5/50 or 100)

(2 * 3 * 1800) / (5/50) = 10800 / 0.1 = 108,000 gp

(2 * 3 * 1800) / (5/100) = 10800 / .05 = 216,000 gp

Which does seem more in line with existing 'unlimited' healing - such as the ring of regeneration which is 90,000 gp (and gives back 1 hp per round).

Sorry about the earlier calculation - needed a shower to make brain function after work.


chavamana

+1

216,000 gold would be the cost for that item.

Liberty's Edge

I recommend saying 'no' to any unlimited-use healing items.

That being said, if you want to do this, it looks like you're a DM who likes items with down sides. Possible down sides for this item include:

- It is a beacon to any creature that has lifesight (undead). They can see you from far away and can feel your presence when you use it.

- It doesn't actually "heal" anything, but rather stores wounds. The wounds still have to be healed later. If the stone is forced to hold more than X HP (perhaps 100, or even more), then it explodes and deals all the damage it holds to its wearer.

- The Gods regulate its use.

- The Gods require service of its user.

- Servants of the God of Death recognize it on sight and hate its bearer with an incredible, fiery passion.

- Etc.

You get the idea.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Hasn´t anyone UMD? A wand of Heal Wounds X and a Handy Wand Case do a great deal in combat.

Besides, there are several items in game that provide healing, like the ring of regeneration, said Iounstone or Dawnflower Sash, but they work a littel different. Take a look at them as guideline.

For level 5, both market price and item creation cost are a little high though.


Lyrax wrote:
I recommend saying 'no' to any unlimited-use healing items.

+1

Lyrax wrote:

That being said, if you want to do this, it looks like you're a DM who likes items with down sides. Possible down sides for this item include:

- It is a beacon to any creature that has lifesight (undead). They can see you from far away and can feel your presence when you use it.

- It doesn't actually "heal" anything, but rather stores wounds. The wounds still have to be healed later. If the stone is forced to hold more than X HP (perhaps 100, or even more), then it explodes and deals all the damage it holds to its wearer.

Also +1 - I would apply both of these as drawbacks.

For what it's worth, I had a 3.5 party of 9th level characters regularly engaging in CR 13 encounters, and one of them wanted to make a set of gloves of Cure Minor Wounds. That costed out to (0.5 x 1 x 2000)/(5/100) = (1000)/(1/20) = (1000)(20) = 20,000 gp. They put the money together and took the time, and it totally wrecked the daily encounter progression to the point where I eventually gave up, apologized, and worked with them to figure out something slightly less game-breaking - we settled on gloves that used Mass Cure Serious Wounds 3/day. This was less game-breaking. Yes. (Honestly, I was prepared to let them have Heal 3/day - I think that this would also have been *less* game-breaking - if they had been grouchy, but they were good sports.)

Liberty's Edge

Why not combine a semi-unlimited use factor with something more controllable? A modified intelligent staff? Could be lugged around, may not be great conversational ability but give it a set of spells similar to what the healer had packing and bam. Recharges each night, can talk through telepathy or vocal to the characters so it can cast as the party asks.

Just something to contemplate.


Mojorat wrote:
You could Price out a Gem shaped Staff item though that only has 1 spell and follows the staff rules otherwise.

Interesting you mention that. Originally, I wrote in a staff of healing at the beginning of the adventure(Rise of the Runelords), called a Bloodstaff(clear crystal staff with blood in the center that would rise and fall like a thermometer as charges were used) connected with seven rune rings(1 for each sin and would limit the healing in the party to 7 people) the healing was a cure light wounds for 1 charge but it allowed the group to go cleric free. Recharging the staff required a the staff be dipped into an active runewell. As more healers joined the group, the staff was removed for being obsolete. The runes were unknown at the time and i wanted to give a stronger tie to the Thassalonian mystery in the beginning module.


chavamana wrote:

Well, assuming you use the general magic rules -

2 * 3 * 1,800 * 2 = 21,600 gp
2 level spell * 3rd level caster * command word * no space limitation

The players in the end decided to give it a slot "amulet" to save costs.

chavamana wrote:


Then I would add the caveat that you need to have the stone in your possession for 24-hr (or 1 week like ring of sustenance) so that they would need one for each person.

That would definately keep the item from being used by more than one person at a time. But what if the item is cast on their friends while they wear it?

chavamana wrote:


Which means that by the character wealth by level, the earliest a character should have such a gem is 9th level (for a PC).

Wealth level doesnt bother me as much.The players do not use there characters in others games so I am loose on those rules of wealth.

chavamana wrote:


I don't know if I would allow it, but it's not horrible. (For reference, it puts it around a pearly white ioun stone - which regenerates 1 hp per 10 minutes). So you might what to bump it up to 25,000 gp - probably not more than that because it does require you to use an action.

Interesting, but 1hp per 10 min vs AVG(2D8+3 or 10pts per round) 10*6(action takes 6 seconds)*10(actions per minute)*10 = on average 6000Hp in that same 10 minute interval.


Anewor7 wrote:

Hi, devious player here :P

What?!? How did you get in here? Yes, Anewor is my player in question. He is not devious or should I say overly devious, but he does push the rules at times. Well, at least this keeps me from using in-game time to talk about the ruling on this item.

Anewor7 wrote:


So a few more details about the particular situation, we're a 5th level party, we have around 11th level character wealth (but we do go up against CR 11 encounters at 5th lvl, (2d6+6 stats - re-roll 1's, half or better hp, +6 hp at first lvl),

Xanesha, in Skinsaw Murders was CR10, not 11, and besides... you had Justice Ironbriar backing you up.What else could you have asked for?

Anewor7 wrote:


The party's main fighter already has a ring of vampirisim that returns half the damage she deals as hp so their never hurting for hp, (has some drawbacks though, our GM loves items with drawbacks - similar to a certain healing staff that existed in the party before we had the healer that corrupted us when we used it :P )

She, the barbarian fighter is a really green player (maybe 4 months of expierience) and her ring of vampiric regen affords her some slack and lets her learn the game. You were not complaining about the rings existance during the Xanesha fight :)The drawback of her item makes her appear "detect" as an undead. There are other roleplaying advantages, she senses what a vampire senses. She is a twilight fan and I thought it would help her understand the game easier.

Anewor7 wrote:


We've got as large of a party as 10 (plus DM) if everyone were to show up at once, (which hasn't happened yet (8's been max so far)), but we more typically have about 4 at a time. A witch with the healing hex and cure light wounds is the only source of healing spells from the party.

Yep, I agree. You guys need more healing. Unlimited charged items are not the answer though.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

An unlimited use cure item is not a good thing to introduce. If they can do a cure mod why not a cure light? 1*1*1800=1,800gp for 1d8+1 healing amulet that you wear during downtimes to heal yourself up!?!?!

The one you are currently looking at a cure moderate is 2*3*1800= 10,800 gp RAW.

For that they could buy 14 wands of cure light wounds (700 charges total) or 2.4 cure moderate wounds wands (~125 charges)

If they choose to adventure without a healer type, then that is something the party needs to manage. Don't just give them a healer on a stick. It is their choice and there are plenty of ways to deal with it the lack of a healer.

In combat use potions, out of combat wands of cure light wounds.

The witch could have picked up craft wand at 5th level and could be cranking them out for 375gp each. Buying the healing item in question for 10,800 the witch could may almost 29 wands of cure light wounds. So the ability to do this is already possible without making taboo items.

Also when the party hits 7th level their lack of healer issue can be over. One or two pick up leadership feat and they attract a healing domain cleric with a high charisma for channel energy. They cohort just stays way back and when the party needs healing they go to him.

Your party sizes is HUGE 10 players!?!?!?! Since you have no healers I assume your damage output is insane. Well just spend some of the money you guys have (you said as if you were 11th level guys) on potions, wands and scrolls of curing.

Or heck you have that much money go hire a healing cleric to travel with you and heal you up. "Stay with the horses brother Healer Guy we will be back in a minute with a lot of wounds and a lot of treasure (which you get a very small portion)".


Eric Tillemans wrote:

On this table "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values", there's a footnote for increasing magic item costs based on spell duration. The factor for a spell whose duration is rounds/level is x4, but nothing is listed for an instantaneous effect.

Given this, I would go with the listing under 'Special' - 'Charges per day' and assume the base price at 5 uses per day. The example from the chart for this method is the Boots of Teleportation which seems to fit for an instantaneous spell such as a healing spell.
So 2nd level spell, 3rd caster level, command word activated, and using up a body slot would cost: 2*3*1800 = 10,800gp and could be used 5 times per day.
I wouldn't allow a healing item to be used an unlimited amount of times per day (and no such item exists in the current rules). I think this is a pretty good compromise and seems to follow the magic item creation rules.

I am really getting the impression I am not in the wrong for thinking the unlimited item is out of balance. Eric,this is really balanced and I may just go with this as a ruling. Well done sir! Thank you for your effort.


Actually it says

4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

at 100 charges the item would cost 216,000 gold, way out of line for a 5th lvl party


Lyrax wrote:

-It is a beacon to any creature that has lifesight (undead). They can see you from far away and can feel your presence when you use it.

- It doesn't actually "heal" anything, but rather stores wounds. The wounds still have to be healed later. If the stone is forced to hold more than X HP (perhaps 100, or even more), then it explodes and deals all the damage it holds to its wearer.
- The Gods regulate its use.
- The Gods require service of its user.
- Servants of the God of Death recognize it on sight and hate its bearer with an incredible, fiery passion.You get the idea.

Great ideas! I do like my powerful items balanced but in this case, I dont think even with a horrible side effect the item would be reasonable. When players need healing, its not generally good to throw in catches. Especially one the party would need to depend on a lot. That being said,the thought of a servitude item of Asmodeus for healing benefits makes me smile.

Sovereign Court

I wasn't referring to Xanesha as the CR 11 - I meant the advanced giant dread ghoul frog god you threw at us - there's also always that time with the Balor :P


Anewor7 wrote:
I wasn't referring to Xanesha as the CR 11 - I meant the advanced giant dread ghoul frog god you threw at us - there's also always that time with the Balor :P

Advanced giant dread ghoul frog - CR6... The Balor on the other hand was released by your companion, at a time of his choosing, I cant help it if he did not say the command word to put the balor(genie) back into the bottle once he was done killing his enemy.


Did anyone else think 'Claw of the Confessor' when they read this? Of course, that went by apparent will of the Gods (or something; those books are still unclear to me)


This is why I think mic is silly. Either such a gem stone has been made many times and is in every town and city, or it will become the focus of the game because an army with just one, if there is only one, would conquer the world.


Buy a couple wands of cure light wounds. Cheap as hell. Buy more when you need.

Problem solved, no broken item needed.

Grand Lodge

Rule 1 for new item cost: See if another item does something similar and use that as a base.

Rule 2: Price according to the power of the effect (unlimited healing is epic items FYI).

Rule 3: Use the formula when all else fails.

Best bet is to let them make items of healing spell X use-able x/day. You can use the formula for those just fine.

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