The Chort |
What is a Signature Spell? Its my nickname for when you have Magical Lineage (x) Preferred Spell (x) and Spell Perfection (x), where x is your Signature Spell. If you think you have a better spell than fireball, let me know.
Before I get into the build, I’d just like to explain a few things. First, that everything about this build is centered around making Fireball effective; however, since I’m going to be using Preferred Spell (Fireball), I never actually prepare my blast spells. While he is amazing at fireball, he should still be plenty effective as a Wizard, casting Black Tentacles, Haste, Wall of Force, or whatever else when that seems more prudent. I’ll also have the liberty to prepare spells I’m not quite sure how many I will need, (Teleport or Dimension Door?) but will likely convert into fireballs. If I need them that day, I’ll use them. Otherwise, he’ll blast with those slots.
The Build:
Wizard - Evoker (Admixture Subschool)
Elf (Spell Penetration built in!)
Favored Class Bonus (Probably all going to HP; however, the elven favored class bonus for wizards allows me to gain additional usage of my Admixture ability. It’s an excellent ability that frees up the need to take Elemental Spell, but will I need to use it more than 10 times a day? Probably not.)
Stats: (A little too good?)
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 21
Wis 14
Cha 6
Traits:
Magical Lineage (Fireball)
Lore Seeker (Fireball and 2 other spells… Which ones, though?)
Magical Lineage treats a spell as 1 level lower when metamagic is applied, and lore seeker adds +1 to the DC and caster level of 3 spells. …and a bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) for good measure.
Leveling Feats:
1 Spell Focus (Evoc)
3 Greater Spell Focus (Evoc)
5 Preferred Spell (Fireball)
7 Lingering Spell
9 Dazing Spell
11 Quicken Spell
13 Intensified Spell
15 Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17 Widen Spell
19 Empower Spell
Wizard Feats:
5 Heighten Spell
10 Selective Spell
15 Persistent Spell
20 Still Spell
This build is incredibly feat intensive, and thus I made some tough decisions, and perhaps some bad decisions, but I decided to focus on one thing: making fireball a combat viable option, even in the face of evasion, fire immunity and whatever else makes fireball tend to suck.
Considerations:
Which metamagic can I get away with having only as a rod?
Can I get by with just my “Elven Spell Penetration” or do I need the feat? (My capstone lets my roll twice on spell penetration checks. …but that’s my capstone.)
Persistent Spell is amazing. Should I take it earlier, or attempt to rely on Lore Seeker, my Spell Focuses and my great Int score? Can I get by with it as a rod?
Is Elemental Focus worth it? Or should I avoid it, since I may need to “admixture” and I already have enough focuses? (Is there such a thing as “enough” when it comes to boosting DCs?)
Can I squeeze in feats like Improved Initiative, Toughness, and Combat Casting?
Anyway, this build is rather strained, and I’d love some suggestions. I’m also hopeful that something in Ultimate Magic may make my plight easier. …and feel free to tell me how my blasty wizard is completely inferior to your caster. ;)
BEGS |
i would take spell penetration and greater spell penetration and scrap 2 meta magic feats.
Though meta magic is useful there is also higher level spells that will be better to use then just meta magic spells.
For my wizards i tend to memorize fewer meta spells then actual high level spells.
My current Necromancer in Kingmaker really only uses quicken spells in addition to normal spells.
He also has spell perfection with the Boneshatter spell.
The Chort |
i would take spell penetration and greater spell penetration and scrap 2 meta magic feats.
Though meta magic is useful there is also higher level spells that will be better to use then just meta magic spells.
For my wizards i tend to memorize fewer meta spells then actual high level spells.
My current Necromancer in Kingmaker really only uses quicken spells in addition to normal spells.
He also has spell perfection with the Boneshatter spell.
Hmm... But which ones? I feel like I picked all of my metamagic for a purpose... Well, the 17, 19, and 20 feats were just to round out my options (you can't get still and widen as rods; I can't empower AND maximize with just rods) and I'm completely open to changing those, but I have a feeling I'm going to need Spell Penetration sooner. ;)
Maybe I should get the Robe of the Archmagi for the bonus? ...or talk to my GM if I can isolate the Spell Penetration that comes from it and take only that bonus on an item. Hrmm. D:
BEGS |
i would drop heighten spell and still spell for a blaster
1 Spell focus
3 Greater spell focus
5 Preferred spell
7 empower spell
9 persistent spell
11 spell penetration
13 greater spell penetration
15 spell perfection
17 Elemental spell
19 selective spell
Wiz bonus 5th dazing spell
10th quicken spell(maybe to early)
15th Intensified Spell(not worth taking before now)
20th Maximize spell
The Chort |
i would drop heighten spell and still spell for a blaster
1 Spell focus
3 Greater spell focus
5 Preferred spell
7 empower spell
9 persistent spell
11 spell penetration
13 greater spell penetration
15 spell perfection
17 Elemental spell
19 selective spellWiz bonus 5th dazing spell
10th quicken spell(maybe to early)
15th Intensified Spell(not worth taking before now)
20th Maximize spell
Unfortunately, Heighten Spell is a prerequisite for Preferred Spell, so my hands are tied there. Also, Elemental Spell isn't worth it because of my subschool ability:
...and if I really need to use the Elemental Ability more, I can just use my favored class bonus.
As for the other suggestions... I'm not sure. I'm hoping to use Lingering Spell as a form of battlefield control, but perhaps its best to just use a separate spell for that? Hrmm. Intensified Spell is certainly worth it by level 13. It only increases the spell level by 1, and don't forget that I have the Lore Seeker trait, meaning my caster level for Fireball is actually 14 at level 13.
I'm also a little partial to Selective Spell, as friendly fire is definitely a concern. Especially if its Dazing. Maybe I can just use a rod? But there's only so many I can use...
Lingering is probably my best bet, but I'm partial to it because its another cool thing I can do with fireball that most can't. *le sigh*
BenignFacist |
Wilhem |
Base on experience, I would pick Improved Initiative as soon as possible. Spells with a decent dmg radius (and control spells too) work better when you go FIRST instead of later, when the baddies moved into melee range with your party. Therefore, I would pick up great spell focus later.
I also think that since you're an elf, you don't need to pick up greater spell penetration. Spell penetration by itself should be enough.
I would drop Still Spell and Lingering Spell. They just don't seem like metamagic feats that work very well with fireball.
Lastly, I know you're married to Fireball, but you should consider having Freezing Sphere as your concubine. She's just like fireball, except she caps at 15d6 and doubles the radius. Sure it's a higher level spell so you won't be able to fit as many metamagic feats on it vs. Fireball, but I think you'll be surprised at how infrequent you'll be casting your widened dazed quickened selective fireball. I think selective freezing sphere will get the job done most of the time.
Good luck!
james maissen |
What is a Signature Spell? Its my nickname for when you have Magical Lineage (x) Preferred Spell (x) and Spell Perfection (x), where x is your Signature Spell. If you think you have a better spell than fireball, let me know.
What party are you looking to place the character within?
There's a teamwork feat that would work well for you if you would have someone else with the same spell and the teamwork feat.
Likewise if you are going to go with an SR yes spell then you need a better penetration roll than what you have.
Consider for a given level what you would be casting your fireball as.. then you'll see which metamagics you would better place into rods.
-James
The Chort |
Base on experience, I would pick Improved Initiative as soon as possible. Spells with a decent dmg radius (and control spells too) work better when you go FIRST instead of later, when the baddies moved into melee range with your party. Therefore, I would pick up great spell focus later.
I also think that since you're an elf, you don't need to pick up greater spell penetration. Spell penetration by itself should be enough.
I would drop Still Spell and Lingering Spell. They just don't seem like metamagic feats that work very well with fireball.
Lastly, I know you're married to Fireball, but you should consider having Freezing Sphere as your concubine. She's just like fireball, except she caps at 15d6 and doubles the radius. Sure it's a higher level spell so you won't be able to fit as many metamagic feats on it vs. Fireball, but I think you'll be surprised at how infrequent you'll be casting your widened dazed quickened selective fireball. I think selective freezing sphere will get the job done most of the time.
Good luck!
I think I'll definitely take you up on dropping Widen Spell and preparing a Freezing Sphere. It's like an Intensified Widened Fireball with some other interesting combat uses. If it turns out a quickened or dazing fireball works better in the situation, then I can sacrifice it. (Maybe I'll take Freezing Sphere and Flaming Sphere as my other 2 Lore Seeker spells?)
I love Improved Initiative. A lot. In fact, an earlier version of this character was a Diviner (Foresight), primarily for the extra initiative. (And since divination spells are not helpful in all situations, converting my extra spell slots into fireballs could be a great option) However, I think Evoker (Admixture) makes more sense, so I can skip dealing with Elemental Spell altogether, have a wider toolbox of evocation spells ready, and make my spells a little more blasty. ;)
...but what to drop... I really like the idea of using Lingering Spell, but maybe that extra initiative is going to be much more helpful. *le sigh*
Leveling Feats:
1 Improved Initiative
3 Spell Focus (Evoc)
5 Preferred Spell (Fireball)
7 Spell Penetration
9 Dazing Spell
11 Quicken Spell
13 Greater Spell Focus (Evoc)
15 Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17 Persistent Spell
19 Lingering Spell
Wizard Feats:
5 Heighten Spell
10 Selective Spell
15 Intensified Spell
20 Empower Spell
Better? I delayed Lingering to 19, Persistent Spell to 17, Intensified to 15, and... yeah. Dropped Widen and Still.
The Chort |
The Chort wrote:What is a Signature Spell? Its my nickname for when you have Magical Lineage (x) Preferred Spell (x) and Spell Perfection (x), where x is your Signature Spell. If you think you have a better spell than fireball, let me know.
What party are you looking to place the character within?
There's a teamwork feat that would work well for you if you would have someone else with the same spell and the teamwork feat.
Likewise if you are going to go with an SR yes spell then you need a better penetration roll than what you have.
Consider for a given level what you would be casting your fireball as.. then you'll see which metamagics you would better place into rods.
-James
I'm pretty feat strapped as is, but perhaps if someone else in my party will take it along with me, I'll consider it. I don't really like teamwork feats because they're somewhat constraining (you have to be adjacent) but it might be an improvement in such a case.
The Chort |
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.....Hail!
I worked something similar while ago - might be some use:
*shakes fist*
Did you ever end up playing that character? I'm just curious as to how much success you had with Lingering Spell. I love the idea of it, but would love some feedback on how it works in practice. Should I take it as a feat early on? ...or make do with the rod for 3k?
Ravingdork |
BenignFacist wrote:Did you ever end up playing that character? I'm just curious as to how much success you had with Lingering Spell. I love the idea of it, but would love some feedback on how it works in practice. Should I take it as a feat early on? ...or make do with the rod for 3k?.
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.....Hail!
I worked something similar while ago - might be some use:
*shakes fist*
I've used lingering spell with NPCs to great effect. One of my NPC sorcerers laid down a wall of fire around the party, and then hit the center with a lingering fireball. They took 10d6 right away, andother 1d6+10 when they leapt through the opaque wall of fire to escape, and were terribly surprised when they encountered the sorcerer's minions with prepared actions to push them back into the "oven" where they once again took 11d6+10 damage. Everytime they tried to escape they would just get pushed back in. Every round when one lingering fireball would end, they would get pelted by another. Tore them up something fierce.
If you don't have that kind of teamwork, however, it is probably of limited use. I recommend the rod in most cases.
The Chort |
The Chort wrote:BenignFacist wrote:Did you ever end up playing that character? I'm just curious as to how much success you had with Lingering Spell. I love the idea of it, but would love some feedback on how it works in practice. Should I take it as a feat early on? ...or make do with the rod for 3k?.
..
...
....
.....Hail!
I worked something similar while ago - might be some use:
*shakes fist*
I've used lingering spell with NPCs to great effect. One of my NPC sorcerers laid down a wall of fire around the party, and then hit the center with a lingering fireball. They took 10d6 right away, andother 1d6+10 when they leapt through the opaque wall of fire to escape, and were terribly surprised when they encountered the sorcerer's minions with prepared actions to push them back into the "oven" where they once again took 11d6+10 damage. Everytime they tried to escape they would just get pushed back in. Every round when one lingering fireball would end, they would get pelted by another. Tore them up something fierce.
If you don't have that kind of teamwork, however, it is probably of limited use. I recommend the rod in most cases.
Wow. That sounds like a pretty nasty combo. But yeah, probably not something I could set up on a regular basis with my party. Hrmm... Maybe I will skip it. D: I just wish I had something other than Heighten Spell for my first 8 levels. (And I guess Heighten disqualifies Fireball from being affected by lesser rods, too.)
stringburka |
One thing to note is that metamagic rods work based on spell level, not level of slot in which it is prepared. Thus, for fireball you only ever need lesser wands (unless you want to heighten the spell).
A lesser lingering metamagic rod is 3000 gp. Don't take the feat, by a rod, then two rods, then three rods and you'll never need the feat.
The same is true for other metamagic feats too, though they'll be used more frequently and thus you might still need the feats. It's a great way to save spell slots though. You MIGHT even consider using rods for quicken - they're more expensive, but by the level you start tossing out quickened fireballs on a regular basis you might very well have those 35k to spare.
BenignFacist |
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Did you ever end up playing that character? I'm just curious as to how much success you had with Lingering Spell.
Didn't get a chance to level him past 3rd in PFS -- I'm making him again for our CoT game tho.
I had a whale/misc. large mammal of a time just RP'ing the rotund snob, so later level goodies are just icing.
He's a wizard after all, so he is going to be 'effective' if played relatively smartly. Lingering Spell is fine tuning an all ready finely equipped tool box.
*shakes fist*
Wilhem |
It's interesting that Lingering Spell does NOT affect creatures already in the spell's radius, but those who enter its area of effect on the 2nd round. If it had been the other way around, I would have recommended you to take it. Nothing like a spell that traps the enemies in an area (such as wall of force) combo with a fireball that does dmg for 2 rounds.
james maissen |
One thing to note is that metamagic rods work based on spell level, not level of slot in which it is prepared. Thus, for fireball you only ever need lesser wands (unless you want to heighten the spell).
Incorrect, an intensified maximized fireball counts as a 7th level spell for purposes of metamagic rods, even if you have say a trait that lets you only take a 6th level slot to cast this.
-James
The Chort |
stringburka wrote:One thing to note is that metamagic rods work based on spell level, not level of slot in which it is prepared. Thus, for fireball you only ever need lesser wands (unless you want to heighten the spell).
Incorrect, an intensified maximized fireball counts as a 7th level spell for purposes of metamagic rods, even if you have say a trait that lets you only take a 6th level slot to cast this.
-James
Eh, I'm not so sure about that.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
james maissen |
Eh, I'm not so sure about that.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
So a quickened magic missile can be recalled by a level 1 pearl of power?
Certainly the 3.5 FAQ said no on this, but you're always free to allow what you wish in your own home games.
-James
stringburka |
The Chort wrote:Eh, I'm not so sure about that.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
So a quickened magic missile can be recalled by a level 1 pearl of power?
Certainly the 3.5 FAQ said no on this, but you're always free to allow what you wish in your own home games.
-James
The 3.5 FAQ didn't rule on metamagic rods, which is what is being discussed here. As such, PF RAW stands - and it's not really open for interpretation as written either, it's in plain letters. That's the way it works. Of course the dev's might change it, but that'd be errata, not a rules clarification.
I haven't read the 3.5 FAQ on pearls of power, but that would stand for itself. The language on PoP haven't changed, so I agree that if the 3.5 FAQ says you can't, it's a fair interpretation. Whether to use 3.5 FAQ on the RAW is more a case of personal interpretation though; I don't know the society rules are in the matter.
The Chort |
The Chort wrote:Eh, I'm not so sure about that.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
So a quickened magic missile can be recalled by a level 1 pearl of power?
Certainly the 3.5 FAQ said no on this, but you're always free to allow what you wish in your own home games.
-James
You may have a point. xP I'm just hoping that one more thing doesn't go wrong with this already suboptimal build. :|
...I head somewhere else that the lesser metamagic rods still work on metamagic'd spells, but I'll have to check that again to see if the person saying it had anything to support that claim. (or to see if that person just so happened a designer)
TwoWolves |
I'd actually consider Dragon Breath instead of Fireball as your spell du jour. It's got the variable damage type built in, and it scales up to 12d6 (17 with Intensify Spell). It's 4th level and the AoE is different, but it covers a lot of ground, and works well for sorcerers to try this built instead of admixture subschool wizards.
james maissen |
The 3.5 FAQ didn't rule on metamagic rods, which is what is being discussed here.
Ah, it must have been Jason or David in LG then, sorry.
Still it seems a very reasonable ruling, as it should also extend to pricing of items and the like.
Basically it all falls into this nebulous place because they use the word level for too many things.
-James
stringburka |
stringburka wrote:
The 3.5 FAQ didn't rule on metamagic rods, which is what is being discussed here.Ah, it must have been Jason or David in LG then, sorry.
Still it seems a very reasonable ruling, as it should also extend to pricing of items and the like.
Basically it all falls into this nebulous place because they use the word level for too many things.
-James
Oh, I agree it's a fair house rule. And yes, the whole spell level vs. spell slot level is reaaaally retarded. I don't have a big issue with character level vs. spell level vs. class level and so on (though character level vs. class level can be confusing for new players when only "level" is referred), but spell slot level... Well, that's just beyond stupid design. It's too bad PF didn't get rid of it, but it would have been quite a large change and would cause issues with backward compatibility so I can understand why they did not.
It's weird though, that in the whole magic item chapter, the only place where I find metamagic mentioned other than in the metamagic rods, is this quote:
"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."
And that's a really weird piece of text right there. Higher what? Higher spell level? Higher caster level? Since the sentence before talks about caster level, it seems as though it would refer to that. However, metamagic feats never affect caster level (AFAIK) so it's just weird. If it's higher spell level, it's also weird because the only metamagic to alter spell level is heighten spell - so why not mention it by name?
And why is metamagic never mentioned anywhere else? Neither the text on scrolls, wands or staves include it.
Can you at all create a magic item that casts a metamagicked spell? I've always assumed that you could and priced it based on spell slot, but on the other hand, I'm usually not a very "by raw" guy and houserule a lot so I haven't really cared what's there until now.
Ravingdork |
It's interesting that Lingering Spell does NOT affect creatures already in the spell's radius, but those who enter its area of effect on the 2nd round. If it had been the other way around, I would have recommended you to take it. Nothing like a spell that traps the enemies in an area (such as wall of force) combo with a fireball that does dmg for 2 rounds.
Yep, you hit somebody with lingering fireball and, assuming they stay put, they only take damage once. In order to take it twice, they have to leave and then go back in.
You could potentially damage a target multiple times in the one round with a spell like telekinesis or enemy hammer. Simply move the target in and out, in and out, in and out until the spell won't let you move them anymore that round.
In general though, lingering spell is mostly good for battlefield control. It sets up zones of "don't go in/through there!" It also blocks line of sight which can allow you to conceal your movements or actions from the enemy.