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Pathfinder in Italy


Paizo Licensed Products General Discussion


Dear Paizo,

I am an Italian and a happy consumer of your player board game Pathfinder.

Unfortunately I have a complaint, certainly not with regard to your work, but to those who have to distribute the product in my country.

The Wyrd is a company that does not keep its promises and she did not publish your materials by the dates announced.

In Italy we have not the APG.

What we have to wait for ultimate Magic and combat?

I hope that my comments will help customers to have an Italian best that you can solicit feedback and outputs or to find a publisher in a better position.

Best regards!

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You are interested only in a Italian version?

If not you can order it to at least one store that deliver in all italy or you can order directly through Paizo.
Ordering directly from Paizo will have you pay a bit less than from a Italian store for the books but you probably will have to pay custom.
The 4% tax is nothing, but they add a repackage and post fee of about 9 €.
My first order wasn't a problem as there were several numbers of the Pathfinder Companions and several modules, but I am waiting to see what will be the surcharge for Faith of purity.
If it will be in the same range (so almost doubling the module cost) I will see if Paizo can make a bulk expedition twice year instead of the current by-monthly delivery.


The problem is the Italian distribution. Language: Italian.

www.e-wyrd.com

e-wyrd's style example:
http://www.5clone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=19256

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I can only tell you something about the German version of the Advanced Player's Guide, but perhaps this will give you some insight into why this book is not available in an Italian version.

In Germany the Advanced Player's Guide will be available on the 5th of May. You heard that correctly, it is also not available yet. And we started with the translation at the end of June last year. So why did it take us so long to bring this book into print?

336 pages of condensed rules.

Rule texts are the most difficult to translate and edit, because you have to be especially conscious about the exact meaning of the sentences you transfer into your language.

336 pages of rules = more than 1800 new rules terms. Each of these terms has to be checked, if it is not already used in another context and if it really describes what it means to say.

Example: Summoner

To summon in German is translated with herbeizaubern. Herbeizauberer as a class name sounds atrocious, so it is out of the question. "Beschwörer" sounds good, but it is already used for the Conjurer specialty school of the Wizard. After a long long discussion we decided to use Paktmagier (i.e. Pact Mage) as the German translation for Summoner as it describes the pact the spellcaster forges with his eidolon.

336 pages means more than triple (or even more than 10 times) than your usual book size. Editing, layout preparation, layout, and copy editing take much much longer than for other books. If you want to bring out the book at an earlier point of time you have to a) use a horde of people which leads to exponentially higher coordination efforts or b) let your quality level slide which leads to disgusted customers and damages your reputation as a publisher in the long term.

If I were you, I'd ask the guys from Wyrd Edizioni, if they plan to offer an Italian Advanced Player's Guide and if yes, when that mighty feat might be accomplished.

Hope I could help.

Member of the German Pathfinder Translation Team


I'm Italian player, and I can confirm that Wyrd's delays caused that more players that, like me, don't speak english very well, take another RPG instead of waiting something like APG for five months after the first date announced by Wyrd, and still waiting.
Comunication between Wyrd and customers are pratically avoided by Wyrd, and more italian players comunities are exaggerated, leaving Pathfinder game.

(ps-sorry for my english)

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I can only repeat myself, that I can only speak for the German translation.

Our translation team has a very active presence on the German boards and we try to have a dialogue with our customer base. We regularly give hints as to what books are currently in translation, or how far we are in other projects (Secret Easter Egg: a certain module from an open designing author just left copy editing).

We admired what Paizo does on their board and try to adopt the openness and presence of their team for our efforts, because we have seen what kind of loyalty it inspires (just look at my avatar, Paizo Charter Superscriber, that kind of loyalty). If Wyrd Edizioni chooses another modus operandi I am sad to hear this, but it is their decision (and their consequences, too, as far as I can read that from your post).

(PS - no need to be sorry, I was perfectly able to understand what you are hoping for you local Pathfinder licensee)


Oliver Von Spreckelsen wrote:

..In Germany the Advanced Player's Guide will be available on the 5th of May. You heard that correctly, it is also not available yet. And we started with the translation at the end of June last year. So why did it take us so long to bring this book into print?

336 pages of condensed rules. ecc..

We can understand that the translation is a long process, but the Wyrd already has the translation of APG (probably because it was made by the users of Official Italian Forum of Pathfinders that collaborate with Wyrd)..and since more months!

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Translation is only the first step. Editing, layout, copy editing takes homungous amounts of time for such a huge book.

German Translation for the APG was finished (more or less) in September, 2 editing passes were finished at the end of November, the book went into layout around Christmas, Copy editing started at the end of January, 2 passes up to mid March and off to the printer.

The amount of work necessary to finish this book pushed several other books way back, but we still managed to nearly maintain our schedule of 2 books per month (just the April entry for the Adventure Path has been pushed to 5th May, because the copy editing of the APG benched the completed layout for the AP book for more than 2 weeks).

Nevertheless the lack of communications from Wyrd Edizioni about the status of their Project Numero Uno for Pathfinder does not inspire customer confidence....

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Maps, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:

Translation is only the first step. Editing, layout, copy editing takes homungous amounts of time for such a huge book.

German Translation for the APG was finished (more or less) in September, 2 editing passes were finished at the end of November, the book went into layout around Christmas, Copy editing started at the end of January, 2 passes up to mid March and off to the printer.

The amount of work necessary to finish this book pushed several other books way back, but we still managed to nearly maintain our schedule of 2 books per month (just the April entry for the Adventure Path has been pushed to 5th May, because the copy editing of the APG benched the completed layout for the AP book for more than 2 weeks).

Nevertheless the lack of communications from Wyrd Edizioni about the status of their Project Numero Uno for Pathfinder does not inspire customer confidence....

I'm Massimo Cranchi, manager of Wyrd Edizioni and of Pathfinder Italian lines. I respect all the customer positions and other international reality, but when someone post something like that, it's a matter of customer position. It's quite more.

In any case, Europe found the same problems. As in Germany, Italy will see the APG for the end of April and the beginning of May. It's not a big work it's a huge work. Translation it's a big part of the work, but there are a lot of other steps that needs a lot of time, from layout to prood reading, to corrections and revisions, to printing. And, the process is the quite the same as for germany.

And it's really fun found someone that said the same fake thing that we don't talk with our customers! you talk nonsense. We have a direct line of a forum, and we have an email impressive work everyday.

We have published three books in the last months, in pdf, that for us is the same as the printing process. So if someone said we are here to do nothing, is simply a liar, or he's not informed. I hope that it's only a matter of lack of information.

Follow us on our and keep patience, as you have seen, we are working in the same way as all internation partners. We have 15 pathfinder books published, the last book printed is already from yesterday in distribution, and others are coming, so there are no reason to write something like that again.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
massimo cranchi wrote:
omitted....

I'm an italian Paizo lover and even if I mainly buy everything I need in English (usually by Amazon) I'm however very happy with the work Wyrd is doing and, of the three books I bought in italian, I cannot complain of anything at all. The quality of these manuals is very good, perhaps not as wonderful as Paizo's one but have you ever seen a company better than Paizo around?

So I hope Wyrd will continue doing what they started and I'm sure that things will go to improve when people like me will also buy complete APs, when they will need those (starting a new campaign) or when the translation will reach the final volume for collection (as it's happening with Second Darkness).
For what regards me I'll continue to support you Wyrd and I thank you for the not easy task you embraced.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Dear Massimo,

my sincere apologies if I made a wrongful deduction from the above posts.

I do not speak Italian, I was only able to use hearsay i.e. the expressed opinions of above customers and directed them first to try to contact your company.

I have tried to give insight into the process and gave them lots of arguments and information about the translation process in order to inpire patience.

I welcome you also here on these Paizo boards and hope that you will keep a continuing presence here internationally.

PS: Kudos for the Italian PRD (I know that this is a HUGE amount of work)


I'm also a Italian Pathfinder GM. The only problem with wyrd edizioni was the first printing of the Core Rulebook that was HORRIBLE and full of errors, typos etc.. The Bestiary was near a perfect book. Ok there have been some problems with Wyrd's promises(the GMG was scheduled for December, never came out and was skipped for the Advanced Player's Guide, I hope we will see it in italian too)

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Our first printing of the Core Rulebook was also prone with errors. We managed to offer it one month after the original Core Rulebook was on the market, but the price for that was visible. The second printing is way better in that regard.

Since then we have installed a rigorous quality control for our books. Bestiary, GameMastery Guide and the Campaign Setting book where much much better in that regard, none really free of errors, but this aim is not really achievable.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Maps, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:

Dear Massimo,

my sincere apologies if I made a wrongful deduction from the above posts.

I do not speak Italian, I was only able to use hearsay i.e. the expressed opinions of above customers and directed them first to try to contact your company.

I have tried to give insight into the process and gave them lots of arguments and information about the translation process in order to inpire patience.

I welcome you also here on these Paizo boards and hope that you will keep a continuing presence here internationally.

PS: Kudos for the Italian PRD (I know that this is a HUGE amount of work)

Dear Oliver, you have nothing to apologize. You reply with the same thing I have in mind. Sincerely when you work on similar projects, you share the same conduct lines. I would be glad to be more present here, and I'll do my best to share with you all our great time in doing business with Paizo and the Pathfinder lines.

Thanks also for the PRD. It's a great work done in cooperation with 5° Clone, an online associations of rpg that loves Pathfinder ..., and with them we are working on a lot of new things.

* Omega999 is a post as the first one. Strangely, you dont' talk of the best selling Second Edition of the Corebook (and that we have corrected all the errata of the first editions, why not?). So why you are talking about something that it's not on the market since June 2010 because it was sold out in about 6 months?? The rest is correct. We are willing as you to publish more than now, but sometimes you'll have to consider the market and how it replies to your new products.

* Sneaky: Thanks. We are working hard to do our best, and you represent one of the reasons to do it. One thing: I don't understand your opinion about the manuals that are not as wonderful as paizo ones. Why, they have the same features, images, layout ... the only difference is the language ... :)


APG: 340 pages in 365 days.

A page a day for each book, compliments to the translator.

I would like to apply for work as a translator from you!

It's a business for me!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
massimo cranchi wrote:
One thing: I don't understand your opinion about the manuals that are not as wonderful as paizo ones. Why, they have the same features, images, layout ... the only difference is the language ... :)

yes of course probable my not perfect English didn't allow me to express myself in a better way... I was just trying to say that if I mainly have never been able to find mistakes in Paizo english books I found some minor typos in your releases... but I have to admit that for me find errors in italian language is simpler than in English and this could be the reason after this... For what regards used paper, colors, layout and so on the quality it's exactly the same, I was not referring to that.


@Pad Shiro: The english version of Advanced Player's Guide was available in October 2011.If the italian version will be available between the end of April and the beginning of May, that means that it was already translated a few months after german version was. So, where did you see the 365 days?


massimo cranchi wrote:
* Omega999 is a post as the first one. Strangely, you dont' talk of the best selling Second Edition of the Corebook (and that we have corrected all the errata of the first editions, why not?). So why you are talking about something that it's not on the market since June 2010 because it was sold out in about 6 months?? The rest is correct. We are willing as you to publish more than now, but sometimes you'll have to consider the market and how it replies to your new products.

I'm talking about it it because I WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO PREORDERED IT and received a book full of errors(50€ are money!!). And I also bought the second edition of the book to support your work!

and i just told the truth. I never said that your work isn't well done or just insulting you for nothing. Just said the truth in my point of view.


I have a preference for english books for a number of reasons (one of them is the SRD) so I just order them from Amazon UK.

A player of mine does the same. Other players are less good with the english language so they prefer the italian version. Some of them is still waiting for the APG.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I removed a post. Personal attacks and insults are not welcome on the Paizo boards. (I realize that many posters here aren't native English speakers, and may not realize they've chosen words and phrases that come across as aggressive, but the post I removed is pretty clearly over the line.)


Vic Wertz wrote:
I removed a post. Personal attacks and insults are not welcome on the Paizo boards. (I realize that many posters here aren't native English speakers, and may not realize they've chosen words and phrases that come across as aggressive, but the post I removed is pretty clearly over the line.)

I apologize for the outburst. Unfortunately there are some people on italian forum that try to denigrate the work done by Wyrd for no reason.

They can't continue with this game on that forum and try to do the same here.

So... sorry again, but it's really important that Paizo know how Wyrd really works: there was some delay with some manuals, but nothing bad like those people try to make believe.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Graziano "firwood" Girelli wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I removed a post. Personal attacks and insults are not welcome on the Paizo boards. (I realize that many posters here aren't native English speakers, and may not realize they've chosen words and phrases that come across as aggressive, but the post I removed is pretty clearly over the line.)

I apologize for the outburst. Unfortunately there are some people on italian forum that try to denigrate the work done by Wyrd for no reason.

They can't continue with this game on that forum and try to do the same here.

So... sorry again, but it's really important that Paizo know how Wyrd really works: there was some delay with some manuals, but nothing bad like those people try to make believe.

Don't worry—we understand all about unanticipated delays in publishing schedules!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Maps, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Graziano "firwood" Girelli wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I removed a post. Personal attacks and insults are not welcome on the Paizo boards. (I realize that many posters here aren't native English speakers, and may not realize they've chosen words and phrases that come across as aggressive, but the post I removed is pretty clearly over the line.)

I apologize for the outburst. Unfortunately there are some people on italian forum that try to denigrate the work done by Wyrd for no reason.

They can't continue with this game on that forum and try to do the same here.

So... sorry again, but it's really important that Paizo know how Wyrd really works: there was some delay with some manuals, but nothing bad like those people try to make believe.

Don't worry—we understand all about unanticipated delays in publishing schedules!

Omega999. What about Germany first edition?? It's normal routine in this kind of works have errata or some typo mistakes. We didn't have reference or other things, like an english version could have, of phrases, terms, glossary or simply entire paragraphes. So consider that 616 pages are not one and that we have translated it about six months. A simply pre-order is not enough to give us so hardly expressions. It is for this reasons that we have an updated pdf version, free for you ... and for all those buyers of the first book, ... and you not mentioned it at all.

Graziano. Sustain us everywhere, but don't be aggressive. Sometimes people needs only a clarify or tell us an opinion or an evaluation. But sometimes they don't have the patience of listening others or understand when something is clarified. Thanks Vic.

At last, Pad, we didn't work in six months only on the APG! We have translated maybe other six or seven books, and the GMG is one of these. So, magically, we translated about 700 pages in about six months for only two books... Gather Information skill check ... failed


the german edition came out, as Oliver said, just a month after the english release. Not in February after many delays! There can have been errors and typos, it's normal. But, the amount of these in the first print was HUGE! Btw i don't wanna argue with you. I still want to support your work and buy your books.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Maps, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Omega9999 wrote:
the german edition came out, as Oliver said, just a month after the english release. Not in February after many delays! There can have been errors and typos, it's normal. But, the amount of these in the first print was HUGE! Btw i don't wanna argue with you. I still want to support your work and buy your books.

Just do it, but sincerely it's not time for these past arguments, not anymore. We have managed and resolved it last year! So you had the time and space to argue with us about it, but it's not a matter to discuss now and in the next future, anymore.

Try to keep us informed of your evaluations, but take care to not reiterate the same thing when it is fixed. So use your keen senses for the new books. We'll appreciate your efforts. Thanks.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kaiyanwang wrote:

I have a preference for english books for a number of reasons (one of them is the SRD) so I just order them from Amazon UK.

A player of mine does the same. Other players are less good with the english language so they prefer the italian version. Some of them is still waiting for the APG.

As a old player I have been trained in preferring the English editions.

I still recall some of Ingellis translations. [shudder]

The work in producing local translated version of the games is very important and indispensable to get new players but when the material you own is in English purchasing a local version of a manual or module force you to translate back some term as you don't know at a glance what is the English version of a spell, feat or skill when you see the Italian name.

Keeping all your material to one language help getting faster references.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

...The work in producing local translated version of the games is very important and indispensable to get new players but when the material you own is in English purchasing a local version of a manual or module force you to translate back some term as you don't know at a glance what is the English version of a spell, feat or skill when you see the Italian name.

Keeping all your material to one language help getting faster references.

That's true but especially when you have the role of GM and your game is played in italian, or you have previously traslated everything or it's difficult to have a good translation when talking to your players (at least for me it's sometimes complex to remember italian terms for english words even if I know perfectly what they mean).

So expecially for the adventures I play to have also the italian version it's very useful.

Taldor

I'd like to say something : in France, PFRPG is translated by Black Books.

I do not buy their books, because I am fluent enough to use the English version, however, some of my friends have expressed disgust for the translation.

Having heard them, I do not share their views on this : sometimes expectations are unrealistic. While they may have defects, BB is way better than was say .... Transecom ? The Horror ! The Horror !

Translation is a subjective thing. If you have doubts, there was someting IIRC, in the Book, about the Tower of Babel.


6 months a translation of 340 pages (badly translated).

Some say it is a normal time.

That's all folks!!


To be honest I do not understand the reason of this topic in the first place, besides, I do not share the same view of the OP.

Wyrd Edizioni has an Official Italian forum and an Official contact e-mail address where complains, if any, can be, and sometimes are, posted (and native language speaking is the optimal choice, imho, if you want to express your point of view or point out remarks on Italian PF products).

I'm also an Italian PF fan (started my 3rd Adventure Path few months ago) who usually buys Paizo products from this website (I've no prob with English), mostly, even if I've got several Italian ones (from Wyrd Edizioni in fact).

But the reason behind this choice is not tied to the Italian products' lack of something; it's just I can't wait playing new products as soon as they are available at the Paizo Store (Adventure Path in primis) and, luckyly, I don't need to ;)
Instead, personally speaking, I'm very grateful towards Wyrd Edizioni and Massimo who, quite bravely, took up the risk to invest on a RPG product on which very few, if any (in Italy), would have bet a single cent (we're talking the period before the huge success in US).

I'm not sure we'd have an Italian PF products line, today, if were not for that choice, and for this I owe Wyrd Edizioni a big "thanks".

I perfectly understand the difficulties in managing a project of this size (the translation and pubblication of the PF products line) from a company that is not so big (like almost all the Italian realities, to be honest) and also the frustration of the Italian customers who see and experience delays in the pubblication of that-so-much-desired manual or even the possibility that some products will be never translated/pubblished.

But, according to my opinion, something is always better than nothing, expecially if that "something", in my experience, it's a very good product (for translation - yes, I'm not talking about Core 1st print - and quality of materials).

Everything just IMHO (and sorry for my not perfect English ;)

Silver Crusade

I think Massimo, Nadir_Sharpblade and all the others already said everithing that should be said.

Pad Shiro wrote:

6 months a translation of 340 pages (badly translated).

Some say it is a normal time.

That's all folks!!

Pad Shiro, it seems your're just being quite uncooperative: you never answered any of the subsequent posts, posts that were making good points. Bursting in a thread ignoring what everyone is saying is... I think the best word is "rude". :-/


I'm an italian Pathfinder fan as well, and i'm also buying paizo books from here directly. Now i received my copy of the Inner sea world guide a few days ago,which contains the stats of Treerazer. Today i buy the 5th books of the Second Darkness AP in its italian edition.

I have only one question: why Treerazer has become Fitanatos ?????????????

Cheliax

Does not sound like a bad translation to me.

Treerazer would be literally translated as "schianta-alberi" or something similar. A demon which is pretty much anathema to woods.
Combining the "fito-" prefix (plant) and tanatos (from Thanatos, the god of death in greek mythology) you have a "plantbane" name which fits both the original and the more "mediterranean" sounding name of an italian translation.


Yes, ok, i knew the origin of the word Fitanatos meant more or less the same as Treerazer.....but i'm generally against translating names.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Yes, translation of names is a pain, especially for those mixed groups. Even though we play in german, I still use all the english names and terms and I have gotten everyone to buy the english edition of the books because it is much easier.

That said I must say that the german translation of Pathfinder maintains a very high standard (something that could not be said with previous editions of D&D, 3.x was simply horrible) and if I wasn't using english books for 20 years now, I would gladly change to the german version.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I'm an Italian Pathfinder player too.. Love all paizo works~

Yeah, translations are always a pain. As soon as i found pathfinder, i bought the books in english. I realized much later that those books existed in Italian o.o But I'm really worried about translation errors. My players can read english as well, so we'll continue with english books. However I know that not everyone -sigh- know the language. That's a problem. Huge problem. Some of my occasional players don't know it. So I hope for the Italian version of these books to be well translated.

..aw, I know It will be a pain.
English +1~

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

As you can see from my status I also order my stuff from Paizo directly...

BUT I have come to appreciate the ability to have the read aloud texts already translated without having to translate them on the fly while I read them to my group. This will always have some awkward moments and any atmosphere will be gone, if you make an error that calls for laughs from the group.

Paizo Employee Global Organized Play Coordinator

All you Italian players need to get together for some Pathfinder Society. I am still looking for an Italian Venture-Captain. The closest I currently have is one in Croatia. Anyone interested, please review the application process at LINK. Just scroll below the list of current Venture-Captains.

That goes for you fine German folks as well. I would love to get more European Venture-Captains.

Osirion

It looks like it's the same problem with every language.

I'm a French Pathfinder Player, and we also have to wait quite long to get products. It looks like we are luckier, because our APG was released earlier than in Germany or Italy. But Black Book Editions put all of their effort on rulebooks, and there is not much effort left on the other supplements.
Right now, I'm waiting for "L'Héritage de Feu" which is the translation of Legacy of Fire AP. I've ordered it (and paid around 140 €) in October 2011, and I'm still waiting for the Player's Guide PDF.

But as a German player told before, the translation of rule books is a very complicated manner, the French APG is full of mistakes.
For example, The Summoner class has been translated with exactly the same word as the Invoker specialist wizard. This causes great confusion.

If you are posting here it means you can read an write english correctly, so I suggest that you do it this way :

Buy the rulebooks in English, and only the fluff (Setting and Adventure Path) in your local language. These books are not so sensitive about precise words, and it is far much easier to read a boxed text aloud to the players if it's in your own language.

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