paizo.com Recent Posts in Touchy Subject on Paladinspaizo.com Recent Posts in Touchy Subject on Paladins2011-04-11T14:35:40Z2011-04-11T14:35:40ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsCoriathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#412011-04-11T20:17:08Z2011-04-11T20:17:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fatespinner wrote:</div><blockquote> A double-heal would go a long way towards Diehard being something useful instead of an express train to New Characterville. </blockquote><p>She can't Lay On Hands herself twice, but she could Lay on Hands herself once, and then channel energy to heal herself + allies. The latter takes two uses of LOH (and Selective Channeling if you don't want to be resurrecting fallen enemies and healing still standing ones left and right) though.Fatespinner wrote:A double-heal would go a long way towards Diehard being something useful instead of an express train to New Characterville.
She can't Lay On Hands herself twice, but she could Lay on Hands herself once, and then channel energy to heal herself + allies. The latter takes two uses of LOH (and Selective Channeling if you don't want to be resurrecting fallen enemies and healing still standing ones left and right) though.Coriat2011-04-11T20:17:08ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsArehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#402011-04-11T19:02:07Z2011-04-11T19:02:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">mdt wrote:</div><blockquote> Lay-on-Hands is not a spell. </blockquote><p>Right; I was just trying to be as complete as possible concerning all the various things that were thrown about in this discussion. Someone did mention swift action spells as a reason to disallow this :)
<p>I agree that you can use lay-on-hands, then ready an action to use it again on someone else's turn.</p>mdt wrote:Lay-on-Hands is not a spell.
Right; I was just trying to be as complete as possible concerning all the various things that were thrown about in this discussion. Someone did mention swift action spells as a reason to disallow this :) I agree that you can use lay-on-hands, then ready an action to use it again on someone else's turn.Are2011-04-11T19:02:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on Paladinsmdthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#392011-04-11T18:59:14Z2011-04-11T18:59:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Are wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I'm going to change my position to partially agree with Mojorat here.</p>
<p>The rules specifically state that you can use a 5-foot-step during a readied action, but goes on to say that you can't if you have moved any distance during the <b>round</b>. So, taking a 5-foot-step on your turn and then readying to take a 5-foot-step wouldn't work.</p>
<p>The rules on swift actions state that you can only use one swift action each <b>turn</b>, so you could (IMO) ready an action to perform a swift action on someone else's turn. However, you could not use such a readied action to cast a swift action spell if you had already cast one such spell, since the rules for spell casting times specifically say you can only cast one swift action spell each <b>round</b>.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Lay-on-Hands is not a spell.Are wrote:I'm going to change my position to partially agree with Mojorat here.
The rules specifically state that you can use a 5-foot-step during a readied action, but goes on to say that you can't if you have moved any distance during the round. So, taking a 5-foot-step on your turn and then readying to take a 5-foot-step wouldn't work.
The rules on swift actions state that you can only use one swift action each turn, so you could (IMO) ready an action to perform a swift action on someone...mdt2011-04-11T18:59:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsArehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#382011-04-11T18:47:57Z2011-04-11T18:47:57Z<p>I'm going to change my position to partially agree with Mojorat here.</p>
<p>The rules specifically state that you can use a 5-foot-step during a readied action, but goes on to say that you can't if you have moved any distance during the <b>round</b>. So, taking a 5-foot-step on your turn and then readying to take a 5-foot-step wouldn't work.</p>
<p>The rules on swift actions state that you can only use one swift action each <b>turn</b>, so you could (IMO) ready an action to perform a swift action on someone else's turn. However, you could not use such a readied action to cast a swift action spell if you had already cast one such spell, since the rules for spell casting times specifically say you can only cast one swift action spell each <b>round</b>.</p>I'm going to change my position to partially agree with Mojorat here.
The rules specifically state that you can use a 5-foot-step during a readied action, but goes on to say that you can't if you have moved any distance during the round. So, taking a 5-foot-step on your turn and then readying to take a 5-foot-step wouldn't work.
The rules on swift actions state that you can only use one swift action each turn, so you could (IMO) ready an action to perform a swift action on someone else's...Are2011-04-11T18:47:57ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsTarantulahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#372011-04-11T18:41:59Z2011-04-11T18:41:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote><p>you can ready and 5foot tsp as part of the ready. </p>
<p>example. fighter readies to hit a wizard when he cast spells. wizard 5 foot steps back. the fighters ready goes off. he f foot steps I'n and hits the wizard.</p>
<p>what doesn't work is if the fighter had to 5 foot step next to the wizard then readied. because he would have already used his 5 foot step.</p>
<p>you can only use 1 swift action per turn if you have already used it you cannot ready to use it. </blockquote><p>Err, somehow I missed that you said you can't do multiple 5 foot steps. I thought you were saying you could 5 foot, then ready to take another 5 foot. My bad.Mojorat wrote:you can ready and 5foot tsp as part of the ready.
example. fighter readies to hit a wizard when he cast spells. wizard 5 foot steps back. the fighters ready goes off. he f foot steps I'n and hits the wizard.
what doesn't work is if the fighter had to 5 foot step next to the wizard then readied. because he would have already used his 5 foot step.
you can only use 1 swift action per turn if you have already used it you cannot ready to use it.
Err, somehow I missed that you...Tarantula2011-04-11T18:41:59ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsMojorat (alias of Brett Hodge)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#362011-04-11T18:32:01Z2011-04-11T18:32:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tarantula wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Are wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote>if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions. </blockquote>I don't see what the problem with that would be. If a player of mine wishes to use his standard action for the round to ready a 5-foot-step, then I'd gladly let him do so (even if he had already used a 5-foot-step in the current round).</blockquote><p>The biggest problem I can see is "I ready to 5' step away when something attacks me."
<p>Fighter comes in, rolls his first attack, your ready goes off, you make a free 5' step away, he can't follow. AC is now worthless, yay! </blockquote><p>you can ready and 5foot tsp as part of the ready.
<p>example. fighter readies to hit a wizard when he cast spells. wizard 5 foot steps back. the fighters ready goes off. he f foot steps I'n and hits the wizard.</p>
<p>what doesn't work is if the fighter had to 5 foot step next to the wizard then readied. because he would have already used his 5 foot step.</p>
<p>you can only use 1 swift action per turn if you have already used it you cannot ready to use it.</p>Tarantula wrote:Are wrote: Mojorat wrote:if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions.
I don't see what the problem with that would be. If a player of mine wishes to use his standard action for the round to ready a 5-foot-step, then I'd gladly let him do so (even if he had already used a 5-foot-step in the current round).The biggest problem I can see is "I ready to 5'...Mojorat (alias of Brett Hodge)2011-04-11T18:32:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsMojorat (alias of Brett Hodge)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#352011-04-11T18:26:12Z2011-04-11T18:26:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fatespinner wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote>he cannot swift lay on himself then ready to use it on the wizard .</blockquote>Actually, yes he can. Using it on SOMEONE ELSE is a standard action. Using it on yourself is a swift. You most certainly CAN take a swift and a standard action in a round. That point is not in debate here. </blockquote><p>your right I was thinking I'n terms of the swift becoming a standard.
<p>meh.. I screwed up my own example.</p>Fatespinner wrote:Mojorat wrote:he cannot swift lay on himself then ready to use it on the wizard .
Actually, yes he can. Using it on SOMEONE ELSE is a standard action. Using it on yourself is a swift. You most certainly CAN take a swift and a standard action in a round. That point is not in debate here. your right I was thinking I'n terms of the swift becoming a standard. meh.. I screwed up my own example.Mojorat (alias of Brett Hodge)2011-04-11T18:26:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsTarantulahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#342011-04-11T18:25:35Z2011-04-11T18:25:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Are wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote>if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions. </blockquote>I don't see what the problem with that would be. If a player of mine wishes to use his standard action for the round to ready a 5-foot-step, then I'd gladly let him do so (even if he had already used a 5-foot-step in the current round).</blockquote><p>The biggest problem I can see is "I ready to 5' step away when something attacks me."
<p>Fighter comes in, rolls his first attack, your ready goes off, you make a free 5' step away, he can't follow. AC is now worthless, yay!</p>Are wrote:Mojorat wrote:if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions.
I don't see what the problem with that would be. If a player of mine wishes to use his standard action for the round to ready a 5-foot-step, then I'd gladly let him do so (even if he had already used a 5-foot-step in the current round).The biggest problem I can see is "I ready to 5' step away when...Tarantula2011-04-11T18:25:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsRoryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#332011-04-11T18:25:15Z2011-04-11T18:25:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote> if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions. </blockquote><p>The point of difference in "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take" is not taking more than one swift action in a turn. The second action would not be a swift action, but instead it would be a standard (full round or readied) action.
<p>The second Quickened Magic Missile would be cast as a standard action and it would provoke AOOs because it was cast as a standard action. The "quickened", swift action part of the spell would just be wasted.</p>
<p>In Your Example: You can take a 5 foot step, and you can walk another 5 ft in a Standard Action with all the penalties (AOOs) associated with walking another 5 ft as a Standard Action.</p>Mojorat wrote:if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions.
The point of difference in "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take" is not taking more than one swift action in a turn. The second action would not be a swift action, but instead it would be a standard (full round or readied) action. The second...Rory2011-04-11T18:25:15ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsKlebert L. Hall (alias of Klebert Hall 486)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#322011-04-11T18:23:23Z2011-04-11T18:23:23Z<p>Here's why you can't use a Standard action to perform a Swift action - because you are trying to substitute logic and common sense for the rules.</p>
<p>If you go down that road, all sorts of bad things happen. For example, it is obvious that a Swift action also takes less time and effort than a Move action. If you can use a Standard action to perform a Swift action, then why not a Move action? So, you go from two spells per turn to three... making sure you can only cast two spells per turn is the <i><b>whole point</i></b> of the Swift action. </p>
<p>When Paizo made "lay hands on self" a Swift action, you can bet they did it on purpose, so as not to allow multiple self-lay-on-hands per turn. Otherwise they would have written "a Paladin may use Lay On Hands on themself as a Swift or Standard action.", or something of that nature.</p>
<p>YMMV of course, but that's a Home Rule, then.
<br />
-Kle.</p>Here's why you can't use a Standard action to perform a Swift action - because you are trying to substitute logic and common sense for the rules.
If you go down that road, all sorts of bad things happen. For example, it is obvious that a Swift action also takes less time and effort than a Move action. If you can use a Standard action to perform a Swift action, then why not a Move action? So, you go from two spells per turn to three... making sure you can only cast two spells per turn is the...Klebert L. Hall (alias of Klebert Hall 486)2011-04-11T18:23:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsArehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#312011-04-11T18:22:30Z2011-04-11T18:22:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote>if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions. </blockquote><p>I don't see what the problem with that would be. If a player of mine wishes to use his standard action for the round to ready a 5-foot-step, then I'd gladly let him do so (even if he had already used a 5-foot-step in the current round).Mojorat wrote:if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions.
I don't see what the problem with that would be. If a player of mine wishes to use his standard action for the round to ready a 5-foot-step, then I'd gladly let him do so (even if he had already used a 5-foot-step in the current round).Are2011-04-11T18:22:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsFatespinner (RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#302011-04-11T18:21:52Z2011-04-11T18:21:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mojorat wrote:</div><blockquote>he cannot swift lay on himself then ready to use it on the wizard .</blockquote><p>Actually, yes he can. Using it on SOMEONE ELSE is a standard action. Using it on yourself is a swift. You most certainly CAN take a swift and a standard action in a round. That point is not in debate here.Mojorat wrote:he cannot swift lay on himself then ready to use it on the wizard .
Actually, yes he can. Using it on SOMEONE ELSE is a standard action. Using it on yourself is a swift. You most certainly CAN take a swift and a standard action in a round. That point is not in debate here.Fatespinner (RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32)2011-04-11T18:21:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsMojorat (alias of Brett Hodge)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#292011-04-11T18:10:11Z2011-04-11T18:10:11Z<p>the reason you can ready a swift action is if you haven't used it yet.</p>
<p>example paladin is I'n a bear trap and cannot move. but aside from his leg being caught is okay. the party wizards is badly ended.</p>
<p>the paladin readies his swift action to heal the wizard when he is I'n rang.</p>
<p>he cannot swift lay on himself then ready to use it on the wizard .</p>
<p>if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do this or swift actions.</p>the reason you can ready a swift action is if you haven't used it yet.
example paladin is I'n a bear trap and cannot move. but aside from his leg being caught is okay. the party wizards is badly ended.
the paladin readies his swift action to heal the wizard when he is I'n rang.
he cannot swift lay on himself then ready to use it on the wizard .
if you argue you can the same logic would allow for multiple 5 foot steps via 5 foot tsp then ready action to take a 5 foot step. you can not do...Mojorat (alias of Brett Hodge)2011-04-11T18:10:11ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsHowie23https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#282011-04-11T18:06:40Z2011-04-11T18:06:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tarantula wrote:</div><blockquote>Core, 188, "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take." </blockquote><p>Excellent Rules Fu.
<p>I, for one, am retracting my concerns about swift not being fully implemented. It is implemented. It just isn't how some would like to see it.</p>
<p>•••••••••••••••••••••••
<br />
Side note on readying actions: Personally, I see ready action triggers being something that happens in the game world and can be responded to. Never something that is merely a matter of game mechanics, such as when someone's turn to act comes up. Never as the result of something you trigger yourself, such as the cheap ride-by attack concepts. The first is on much firmer ground than the latter from a written rules perspective. I think both are on firm ground regarding game design and the game concepts involved.</p>Tarantula wrote:Core, 188, "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."
Excellent Rules Fu. I, for one, am retracting my concerns about swift not being fully implemented. It is implemented. It just isn't how some would like to see it.
***********************
Side note on readying actions: Personally, I see ready action triggers being something that happens in the game world and can be responded to. Never something that is...Howie232011-04-11T18:06:40ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsTarantulahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#272011-04-11T17:52:53Z2011-04-11T17:52:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fatespinner wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Actually, you can ready a swift action.</p>
<p>Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." </blockquote>Okay, so, why couldn't the character use a swift action to heal themselves, and then use their standard action to "ready" a swift action to heal themselves again, with the condition of "as soon as <whoever is next in initiative order> begins to act"? At this point, aren't you really just mincing words? </blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">"Rory wrote:</div><blockquote><p>The second one is not cast as a swift action, so RAW is not violated.</p>
<p>Swift Action: cast Quicken Magic Missile</p>
<p>Full Round Action: Ready an action to cast Quicken Magic Missile as soon as your readying action is complete.</blockquote><p>Same problem with both of these. You only get one per turn, period.
<p>Core, 188, "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."</p>Fatespinner wrote:Actually, you can ready a swift action.
Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action."
Okay, so, why couldn't the character use a swift action to heal themselves, and then use their standard action to "ready" a swift action to heal themselves again, with the condition of "as soon as begins to act"? At this point, aren't you really just mincing words? "Rory wrote:The second one is not cast as a swift...Tarantula2011-04-11T17:52:53ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsRoryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#262011-04-11T17:45:28Z2011-04-11T17:45:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tarantula wrote:</div><blockquote> Unfortunately common sense in this case is wrong. The wizard could not cast both spells, as the time required is a swift action for both, and you can only perform 1 swift action/turn. </blockquote><p>The second one is not cast as a swift action, so RAW is not violated.
<p>Swift Action: cast Quicken Magic Missile</p>
<p>Full Round Action: Ready an action to cast Quicken Magic Missile as soon as your readying action is complete.</p>Tarantula wrote:Unfortunately common sense in this case is wrong. The wizard could not cast both spells, as the time required is a swift action for both, and you can only perform 1 swift action/turn.
The second one is not cast as a swift action, so RAW is not violated. Swift Action: cast Quicken Magic Missile
Full Round Action: Ready an action to cast Quicken Magic Missile as soon as your readying action is complete.Rory2011-04-11T17:45:28ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsFatespinner (RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#252011-04-11T17:40:09Z2011-04-11T17:40:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tarantula wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Howie23 wrote:</div><blockquote> Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.</blockquote><p>Actually, you can ready a swift action.
<p>Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." </blockquote><p>Okay, so, why couldn't the character use a swift action to heal themselves, and then use their standard action to "ready" a swift action to heal themselves again, with the condition of "as soon as <whoever is next in initiative order> begins to act"? At this point, aren't you really just mincing words?Tarantula wrote:Howie23 wrote: Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.
Actually, you can ready a swift action. Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." Okay, so, why couldn't the character use a swift action...Fatespinner (RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32)2011-04-11T17:40:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsHowie23https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#242011-04-11T17:32:23Z2011-04-11T17:32:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tarantula wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Howie23 wrote:</div><blockquote> Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.</blockquote><p>Actually, you can ready a swift action.
<p>Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." </blockquote><p>Thanks for the correction. I've edited my failed post.Tarantula wrote:Howie23 wrote: Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.
Actually, you can ready a swift action. Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." Thanks for the correction. I've edited my failed post.Howie232011-04-11T17:32:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsTarantulahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#232011-04-11T17:27:42Z2011-04-11T17:27:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Howie23 wrote:</div><blockquote> Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.</blockquote><p>Actually, you can ready a swift action.
<p>Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action."</p>Howie23 wrote:Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.
Actually, you can ready a swift action. Core, 203, "Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action."Tarantula2011-04-11T17:27:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsHowie23https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#222011-04-11T17:25:33Z2011-04-11T17:25:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">mdt wrote:</div><blockquote><p>I disagree, the addition of the swift action (and immediate action) was poorly thought out. This could have been adressed easily when adding the new action thusly : </p>
<p>"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move <b>or swift</b> action in place of a standard action." </blockquote><p>I'm describing the history and what it lead to. I'm not justifying the lack of consistency, I'm merely explaining it. I think it should have been modified for over all consistency.
<p>While you can't substitute free actions for std actions, either, free actions are only limited by the GM, so I'm not sure this does much in the discussion. (free actions brought up by another poster)</p>
<p>Edit: Ignore this paragraph, I intended to double check before posting it and failed my memory check... Note, that you can ready an action (in itself a standard action) that later results in the performance of a free, move, or standard action. But not swift. This is another example in the same theme; swift actions are tacked on and not fully incorporated.</p>
<p>MDT, I don't disagree with your basic premise.</p>mdt wrote:I disagree, the addition of the swift action (and immediate action) was poorly thought out. This could have been adressed easily when adding the new action thusly :
"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move or swift action in place of a standard action."
I'm describing the history and what it lead to. I'm not...Howie232011-04-11T17:25:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsRoryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#212011-04-11T16:59:35Z2011-04-11T16:59:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Howie23 wrote:</div><blockquote> In other words, it isn't poorly thought out, it just isn't fully incorporated. </blockquote><p>I think it is just a common sense rule and it is fully incorporated.
<p>For example...</p>
<p>"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."</p>
<p>...you can't use a standard action to perform a free action either by the same strict RAW interpretation.</p>
<p>However, you can drop an item to the ground as a standard action even though dropping an item is a free action. In the case of doing it as a standard action, fragile items won't break as you are taking time to set it down a lot more carefully.</p>
<p>Speaking is also a free action. With a standard action, I can speak longer, but I definitely can still speak.</p>Howie23 wrote:In other words, it isn't poorly thought out, it just isn't fully incorporated.
I think it is just a common sense rule and it is fully incorporated. For example...
"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."
...you can't use a standard action to perform a free action either by...Rory2011-04-11T16:59:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on Paladinsmdthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#202011-04-11T16:56:18Z2011-04-11T16:56:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Howie23 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">mdt wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Huh,
</p>
Never noticed that. Seems rather poorly thought out. The definition of a swift action is that it takes less effort than a standard action, but more than a free action. It seems reasonable then that you could use a standard action to perform a swift action, but strict RAW say otherwise.</p>
<p>•le sigh• yet another house rule. </blockquote><p>Unfortunately, the rules have the burden of history that follows them around. The rule about replacing a std action with a move action is part of the original rules. The addition of swift actions and the other almost free variants followed later; editing a ruleset so that additional rules filter everywhere they should takes an incredible effort to insure it filters into all nooks and crannies. In other words, it isn't poorly thought out, it just isn't fully incorporated.
<p></blockquote><p>I disagree, the addition of the swift action (and immediate action) was poorly thought out. This could have been adressed easily when adding the new action thusly :
<p>"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move <b>or swift</b> action in place of a standard action."</p>Howie23 wrote:mdt wrote:Huh,
Never noticed that. Seems rather poorly thought out. The definition of a swift action is that it takes less effort than a standard action, but more than a free action. It seems reasonable then that you could use a standard action to perform a swift action, but strict RAW say otherwise.*le sigh* yet another house rule.
Unfortunately, the rules have the burden of history that follows them around. The rule about replacing a std action with a move action is part of...mdt2011-04-11T16:56:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsTarantulahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#192011-04-11T16:54:42Z2011-04-11T16:54:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote><p>I don't see a problem with it.</p>
<p>If a wizard only had two Quickened Magic Missiles left to cast for the day, it is common sense that the wizard could cast both in the same round (one swift, one standard) instead of requiring one of the spells to take longer to cast (= not quickened) to be able to cast them both. </blockquote><p>Unfortunately common sense in this case is wrong. The wizard could not cast both spells, as the time required is a swift action for both, and you can only perform 1 swift action/turn.Rory wrote:I don't see a problem with it.
If a wizard only had two Quickened Magic Missiles left to cast for the day, it is common sense that the wizard could cast both in the same round (one swift, one standard) instead of requiring one of the spells to take longer to cast (= not quickened) to be able to cast them both.
Unfortunately common sense in this case is wrong. The wizard could not cast both spells, as the time required is a swift action for both, and you can only perform 1 swift...Tarantula2011-04-11T16:54:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on PaladinsHowie23https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#182011-04-11T16:50:27Z2011-04-11T16:50:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">mdt wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Huh,
</p>
Never noticed that. Seems rather poorly thought out. The definition of a swift action is that it takes less effort than a standard action, but more than a free action. It seems reasonable then that you could use a standard action to perform a swift action, but strict RAW say otherwise.</p>
<p>•le sigh• yet another house rule. </blockquote><p>Unfortunately, the rules have the burden of history that follows them around. The rule about replacing a std action with a move action is part of the original rules. The addition of swift actions and the other almost free variants followed later; editing a ruleset so that additional rules filter everywhere they should takes an incredible effort to insure it filters into all nooks and crannies. In other words, it isn't poorly thought out, it just isn't fully incorporated.mdt wrote:Huh,
Never noticed that. Seems rather poorly thought out. The definition of a swift action is that it takes less effort than a standard action, but more than a free action. It seems reasonable then that you could use a standard action to perform a swift action, but strict RAW say otherwise.*le sigh* yet another house rule.
Unfortunately, the rules have the burden of history that follows them around. The rule about replacing a std action with a move action is part of the original...Howie232011-04-11T16:50:27ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Touchy Subject on Paladinsmdthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m477?Touchy-Subject-on-Paladins#172011-04-11T16:37:38Z2011-04-11T16:37:38Z<p>Huh,
<br />
Never noticed that. Seems rather poorly thought out. The definition of a swift action is that it takes less effort than a standard action, but more than a free action. It seems reasonable then that you could use a standard action to perform a swift action, but strict RAW say otherwise.</p>
<p>•le sigh• yet another house rule.</p>Huh,
Never noticed that. Seems rather poorly thought out. The definition of a swift action is that it takes less effort than a standard action, but more than a free action. It seems reasonable then that you could use a standard action to perform a swift action, but strict RAW say otherwise.
*le sigh* yet another house rule.mdt2011-04-11T16:37:38Z