You may have seen my post asking for recommendations on metamagic feats for my Sorcerer. I thank those who posted, many of you gave very helpful suggestions.
I am now asking for recommendations on what item creation feats you recommend.
Just a very short synopsis of the situation in our campaign. Our party members are all monsters (mostly hobgoblins), so therefore it is very difficult for us to go out and purchase supplies in general, but especially magic items. We really don’t have the means to buy magic items anyways as of yet, because we are pretty poor, but it would be an eventual problem.
However, we are pretty self sufficient for this reason. We pretty much have most of the crafting skills taken care of and I am taking item creation feats to cover (most of) our magical needs (when we have the funds for it, our DM is pretty stringent on money, which I kind of like).
Craft Wonderous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor are definite. And I actually have already chosen Craft Wonderous Item as we just reached 3rd level.
I was debating on Forge Ring as well, but after looking at the list of rings, where there are a handful of ones that are great, I don’t know if there are enough where I want to take a feat for it.
At first I was not going to take Brew Potion as I was under the impression it worked the same as spell completion/trigger items in that you could only brew potions that you actually knew/had prepared. However, after being pointed out in another thread that is not the case, in that you can take a +5 DC modifier for spells you don’t know, Brew Potion is one I am thinking about as well, as it can be very useful.
Another one I am debating on is Craft Rod. At first it wasn’t on my radar, as again, I was mistaken that you needed to know the spell (if the rod requires one) to craft it. But again, you can take a +5 DC. The only problem with a rod, is even though anyone can use one, a large majority of them are beneficial only to casters, referring to the metamagic rods. Great for me and our Fighter/Wizard, but the rods with metamagic abilities are useless to the rest of our party members.
Finally, where I would like to be able to take Craft Wand (love wands), it really is not worth it as I am a Sorcerer and I can only craft wands for spells I know. Same reason Scribe Scroll and Craft Staff are out.
So it really comes down to choosing Forge Ring, Craft Rod or Brew Potion. Some may say “Take all”. But where I do want to be a magic item crafter, I do want to be useful in combat as well, and therefore not pour all my feats into item creation feats. So I am putting the limit of three item creation feats.
Any suggestions are much appreciated.
If your DM is open to custom wondrous items,there is very little you can craft into a ring that you can't craft into, say, a belt.
If your campaign goes high enough, craft rod can save you tens of thousands of GP on a Greater Quicken Metamagic rod.
Even brewing your own, potions are not cost effective for spells you'll want to use every day. Compare brewing potions of haste for 325gp a pop and crafting Boots of Speed for 6,000 gp. After 18 potions, the boots are cheaper. And since the boots last twice as long, and recharge every day, that's only 9 days of adventuring. Potions are best for spells that don't rely heavily on caster level, that are very situational in use. So while they're still useful, you save much less money brewing your own potions than other crafting feats, and saving money is half the point of the feat in the first place. Only if I thought my DM would limit my access to potions (they're only 1st-3rd level spells) would I consider taking Brew Potion.
If your DM is open to custom wondrous items,there is very little you can craft into a ring that you can't craft into, say, a belt.
Yeah, well I’m not sure if he is, to be honest. There has been times he has said he will only ever allow items out of the book, but then there are times he has allowed a custom item. That’s why I am going by what I see already listed in the book already as I know that would be allowed.
If your campaign goes high enough, craft rod can save you tens of thousands of GP on a Greater Quicken Metamagic rod.
Yes, that’s true. However again, those metamagic rods don’t do a lot of good for most of the remaining party members (who can't cast spells).
Even brewing your own, potions are not cost effective for spells you'll want to use every day. Compare brewing potions of haste for 325gp a pop and crafting Boots of Speed for 6,000 gp. After 18 potions, the boots are cheaper. And since the boots last twice as long, and recharge every day, that's only 9 days of adventuring. Potions are best for spells that don't rely heavily on caster level, that are very situational in use. So while they're still useful, you save much less money brewing your own potions than other crafting feats, and saving money is half the point of the feat in the first place. Only if I thought my DM would limit my access to potions (they're only 1st-3rd level spells) would I consider taking Brew Potion.
Believe me, I agree with you, potions don’t give you a good money return if you have alternate means. However, it does give you flexibility. Where you could get Boots of Speed for a cheaper price in the long run, you are then forced to abide by the abilities those boots give you. Where with a potion, you can drink that Potion of Speed for that combat and can still put something else on your feet.
If I had my choice, I would much prefer wands, as they truly are much more worthwhile than brewing potions. However, I run into the issue I brought up in my first post that I am only limited to spells that I know for wands, and that is just not worth it with my limited spell selection. Nevermind I couldn’t make any curing wands, which is what I would be doing with potions. And healing potions is something we do use a lot, never mind the fact they can be handed out to all.
Hmm, was hoping for a little more input by now. lol
But if it disappears again, then I won't bump it back up.
Forget about brew potion, it is just not worth it.
Craft ring probalby has more utility then craft rod. Craft rod quicken is a wonderful item however craft ring is more useful to due the enhanced variety.
Ok, besides the cost ratio, can anyone tell me why Brew Potion is not worth it? I agree, the cost is pretty bad comparatively to wands or even a wonderous that shares the same spell ability. However, I do know potions is something we (players at our table) have used a LOT over the years and since I am not limited to only the spells I know, you have the combined spell lists (up to 3rd level) with that +5 DC modifier.
It just seems brewing potions is more flexible than other items. Not only in the spell selection, but that anyone can use them.
But then I could be wrong and get better suggestions, that's why I am throwing my original question(s) out there.
I knew this would come up again. Actually, strictly by RAW, you are not limited. That statement you bolded is under crafting all magic items, including wonderous items and armor and weapons. And we know you can take a +5 DC when you don’t know the spell for those.
But yes, you bring up good points in the level limitation and no personal spells. Although even still, our group has used potions often over the years.
I knew this would come up again. Actually, strictly by RAW, you are not limited. That statement you bolded is under crafting all magic items, including wonderous items and armor and weapons. And we know you can take a +5 DC when you don’t know the spell for those.
Actually nowhere in RAW does it say that. Under magic item creation it says for each type of item you need to have prepared the spell (prepared casters) or have access to it (spontaneous casters)and the required item creation feat.
If your DM allows it then great for you.
If your DM does not allow it than I agree with their decision.
I am not letting arcane casters creating divine items in my game nor divine casters creating arcane items.
Thanx!
Hawk
I knew this would come up again. Actually, strictly by RAW, you are not limited. That statement you bolded is under crafting all magic items, including wonderous items and armor and weapons. And we know you can take a +5 DC when you don’t know the spell for those.
Actually nowhere in RAW does it say that. Under magic item creation it says for each type of item you need to have prepared the spell (prepared casters) or have access to it (spontaneous casters)and the required item creation feat.
If your DM allows it then great for you.
If your DM does not allow it than I agree with their decision.
I am not letting arcane casters creating divine items in my game nor divine casters creating arcane items.
Thanx!
Hawk
Actually, it does say that.
I cannot supply the quote as it is out of the book and I am at work. For some reason, the PRD does not quote it the same. But it says something along the lines of the creator can take a +5 DC modifier in case he cannot meet a prerequisite and uses spells as an example.
So if you don’t want to allow arcane casters to use the +5 DC for divine spells, that is your right and choice. But by RAW, it is allowed. With anything besides spell completion/trigger items, which a potion is neither.
I will supply the quote when I get home this evening, unless someone else can do so until then. Another way to look at it is if the creator was not able to use the +5 DC to supplement spells not known, how could a non-spellcasting character take Master Craftsman?
Ok, besides the cost ratio, can anyone tell me why Brew Potion is not worth it? I agree, the cost is pretty bad comparatively to wands or even a wonderous that shares the same spell ability. However, I do know potions is something we (players at our table) have used a LOT over the years and since I am not limited to only the spells I know, you have the combined spell lists (up to 3rd level) with that +5 DC modifier.
It just seems brewing potions is more flexible than other items. Not only in the spell selection, but that anyone can use them.
But then I could be wrong and get better suggestions, that's why I am throwing my original question(s) out there.
If potions were free, then they would absolutely be worth it. But, they're not free. Drinking potions is like destroying GP. You now have less GP worth of gear than you did a moment ago. Brew and drink enough potions and you could fall thousands of GP below WBL. If your handing them out for free, then you end up way behind the rest of the party.
If your DM will consistently drop more treasure to make up for the GP you're burning, potions become more worth it. If you can get away with pre-drinking dozens of long duration potions before each battle, knowing your DM will drop extra loot afterwards so you can replace them before the next adventure, potions are definitely worth it.
One exception is healing potions. These are almost never worth the action it takes to drink them. At the level you can afford them, healing potions heal less Hp than you're likely taking in a round. Drinking one in a life or death situation is OK, but if you need to drink more than one, you've likely already lost and should be using your actions to run away. Conventional wisdom dictates that healing should be done after combat, and the cheapest way to do out of combat healing is with wands (even if you have to pay full price).
The cost ratio is pretty much the main reason why potions are not worth it. That's a big reason that shouldn't be discounted lightly. If you were equipping a Fighter, would you pay 100,000 GP for a belt of STR? Of course not! Belts of STR are great, and if it wasn't for the cost, you'd buy it, but you could get lots of other items that would give more benefit than a single belt of STR for 100,000 GP.
Another disadvantage of potions is it takes a move to draw one and a standard (which provokes) to drink it. (My favorite thing to do with that AoO is sunder or disarm the potion.) Most magic items take only a standard to activate, and usually don't provoke. Many of the better items are either always on or may even activate as a swift or free action like Boots of Speed
Hawk, here is the quote out of the book I was referring to. It is on page 549, at the top:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
It's worded a bit unusually, but it says the creator can take +5 to his/her roll if they do not know the spell. And follows with the exception of spell-trigger/spell-completion items, which potions are not.
If potions were free, then they would absolutely be worth it. But, they're not free. Drinking potions is like destroying GP. You now have less GP worth of gear than you did a moment ago. Brew and drink enough potions and you could fall thousands of GP below WBL. If your handing them out for free, then you end up way behind the rest of the party.If your DM will consistently drop more treasure to make up for the GP you're burning, potions become more worth it. If you can get away with pre-drinking dozens of long duration potions before each battle, knowing your DM will drop extra loot afterwards so you can replace them before the next adventure, potions are definitely worth it.
One exception is healing potions. These are almost never worth the action it takes to drink them. At the level you can afford them, healing potions heal less Hp than you're likely taking in a round. Drinking one in a life or death situation is OK, but if you need to drink more than one, you've likely already lost and should be using your actions to run away. Conventional wisdom dictates that healing should be done after combat, and the cheapest way to do out of combat healing is with wands (even if you have to pay full price).
The cost ratio is pretty much the main reason why potions are not worth it. That's a big reason that shouldn't be discounted lightly. If you were equipping a Fighter, would you pay 100,000 GP for a belt of STR? Of course not! Belts of STR are great, and if it wasn't for the cost, you'd buy it, but you could get lots of other items that would give more benefit than a single belt of STR for 100,000 GP.
Another disadvantage of potions is it takes a move to draw one and a standard (which provokes) to drink it. (My favorite thing to do with that AoO is sunder or disarm the potion.) Most magic items take only a standard to activate, and usually don't provoke. Many of the better items are either always on or may even activate as a swift or free action like Boots of Speed.
You bring up very good points. The thing with my GM is he doesn't follow the WBL that closely where temporary items (ones we use quickly, like potions) do not limit us getting new magic items. And we definitely don't 'lose' out on our WBL when we drink those potions.
That being said, he does a good job monitoring us and keeping us from becoming too powerful (with magic items).
To be honest, since your post, I have been thinking more about going with Craft Wand, even though I can only use spells that I actually know. The spells I plan on picking for my Sorcerer are going to be very useful ones and we will have a Wizard in our group, even if only for a short time (he is going down the Eldritch Knight route). Also, we do have a 5th level Druid NPC that could assist if we wanted to make a wand with a healing spell.
I know there is a quick blurb about other spellcasters assisting you crafting the item (as I quoted it above), but I thought there was a more detailed explanation somewhere on other spellcasters assisting, but I can't find it in the book. I wanted to show it to my GM when we game next.
Actually, it does say that.
I cannot supply the quote as it is out of the book and I am at work. For some reason, the PRD does not quote it the same. But it says something along the lines of the creator can take a +5 DC modifier in case he cannot meet a prerequisite and uses spells as an example.
So if you don’t want to allow arcane casters to use the +5 DC for divine spells, that is your right and choice. But by RAW, it is allowed. With anything besides spell completion/trigger items, which a potion is neither.
I am familiar with the sentence that you are refering to. It is also contridictary to what is listed under each magic item. Also Paizo has made it quite clear (in another thread of yours) that it is up to the GM to decide. So techincally your read of it is RAW as is mine.
I will supply the quote when I get home this evening, unless someone else can do so until then.
Another way to look at it is if the creator was not able to use the +5 DC to supplement spells not known, how could a non-spellcasting character take Master Craftsman?
Very interesting. I overlooked this. However the description of the feat states simple magic items.
So I would allow a +1 weapon or +1 armor or Boots of Elvinkind
or Bracers of Archery, Lesser or similar items all day long.
Anything beyond that is not simple.
It all depends on how the GM interprets the RAW. I place the emphasis on the creation per the items. You clearly default to the +5 DC sentance.
I am guessing your DM does not allow you to do it the way you want, hence all your consternation over this rule. :)
Thanx!
Hawk
I am familiar with the sentence that you are refering to. It is also contridictary to what is listed under each magic item. Also Paizo has made it quite clear (in another thread of yours) that it is up to the GM to decide. So techincally your read of it is RAW as is mine.
Well of course it is always up to the GM. If the GM wishes, he could throw away the item creation rules completely and use his own. However, that would not be RAW, it would be a house rule.
As Paizo used the line of: Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. that alone indicates that by RAW you can take that +5 for spells you do not know.
In the end though, I agree the creation rules can be confusing, are worded poorly in some instances as well as contradictory. Even though this area is understandable enough in being able to take a +5 DC for spells not known, it could still have been worded better.
Very interesting. I overlooked this. However the description of the feat states simple magic items.
So I would allow a +1 weapon or +1 armor or Boots of Elvinkind
or Bracers of Archery, Lesser all day long.Anything beyond that is not simple.
It all depends on how the GM interprets the RAW. I place the emphasis on the creation per the items. You clearly default to the +5 DC sentance.
Well, that is an interesting take on the rules. So you are saying you would not allow someone who took the Master Craftsman feat to make anything more than a +1 armor/weapon or Wonderous Item? I can tell you that is certainly not what the developers intended and really makes the feat not worthwhile to take at all.
I place the emphasis on the +5 DC as that is what is RAW. You are welcome to make whatever changes you want to your campaign as you are the DM, but please don't try to argue what you are doing is RAW.
I am guessing your DM does not allow you to do it the way you want, hence all your consternation over this rule. :)
Thanx!
Hawk
Not at all. And no consternation on the rule. Just pointing out what is RAW. :)
I haven't actually even talked to my GM about this yet. With the exception of letting him know I wish to take some item creation feats. No, I am trying to get this worked out in my head, first. As I have said, and I know others agree, the creation rules could have been written a little clearer, so just trying to hammer out what is RAW and what isn't, so my GM can decide what he does want and doesn't want to use.
Brew Potion isn't worth it because you are limiting yourself to 3rd level spells and its a standard action to use each one.
You are far better off waiting until you find a few potions through your adventures than to blow gold on them.
Scribe Scroll is a far better option. It has no level limit and anything you'd want to give to a buddy as a potion you can cast on them with a scroll anyway. The sole thing Potions bring is action economy and that's only if the spell is 3rd level or lower.
Scrolls and wondrous items should be your main selections with arms/armor to help the rest of the group. If you really want to expand beyond that I'd go with Ring so you can make rings of protection and sustenance for the party. (sustenance or whatever it is your team wants. I'm partial to sustenance myself :) )
Wands would be next. Get yourself a high UMD for CLW wands to heal the group up after battle. Other wands can be useful too, in some circumstances. Depends on just how much cash you want to blow on items that turn to dust after awhile.
-S
Well of course it is always up to the GM. If the GM wishes, he could throw away the item creation rules completely and use his own. However, that would not be RAW, it would be a house rule.
Agreed 100%.
As Paizo used the line of: Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. that alone indicates that by RAW you can take that +5 for spells you do not know.
Read it again.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).Bolding mine.
Nowhere in this sentance does it say that you can take a +5 to overcome the lack of having the spell. It also states that under each specific magic item.
The two things you must have per the RAW are the item creation feat and the spell. The +5 DC is applied to things like: not having 5 ranks in climb, not being an elf, not being proficient with a longbow....etc
In the end though, I agree the creation rules can be confusing, are worded poorly in some instances as well as contradictory. Even though this area is understandable enough in being able to take a +5 DC for spells not known, it could still have been worded better.
Agreed 100%
Well, that is an interesting take on the rules. So you are saying you would not allow someone who took the Master Craftsman feat to make anything more than a +1 armor/weapon or Wonderous Item?
It is not a take at all. The RAW clearly states simple magic items. What is missing is the definition of simple.
I can tell you that is certainly not what the developers intended and really makes the feat not worthwhile to take at all.
I am not sure how you can make that statement. Did they tell you this?
I place the emphasis on the +5 DC as that is what is RAW. You are welcome to make whatever changes you want to your campaign as you are the DM, but please don't try to argue what you are doing is RAW.
You you are emphasizing is not RAW, per what you posted above.
I am not arguing with you at all. I am pointing out RAW as I read it.
Not at all. And no consternation on the rule. Just pointing out what is RAW. :)
I haven't actually even talked to my GM about this yet. With the exception of letting him know I wish to take some item creation feats. No, I am trying to get this worked out in my head, first. As I have said, and I know others agree, the creation rules could have been written a little clearer, so just trying to hammer out what is RAW and what isn't, so my GM can decide what he does want and doesn't want to use.
No what I see you trying to do is get the delvelopers or the community to agree with you so that you can tell your GM such.
Since you are convinced you are right I will leave you be.
Thanx!
Hawk
Brew Potion isn't worth it because you are limiting yourself to 3rd level spells and its a standard action to use each one.
Move and standard, unless you already have the potion in hand (or are wearing a beer hat full of potion).
Read it again.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).Bolding mine.
Nowhere in this sentance does it say that you can take a +5 to overcome the lack of having the spell. It also states that under each specific magic item.
The two things you must have per the RAW are the item creation feat and the spell. The +5 DC is applied to things like: not having 5 ranks in climb, not being an elf, not being proficient with a longbow....etc
Incorrect.
Read it the whole passage again:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The only truly mandatory thing is the item creation feat. As it indicates, spells are a prerequisite. And then it follows to say you can take a +5 DC for each prerequsite (i.e. spells) the creator does not meet.
It is also why the passage says in the end that spell-trigger and spell-trigger items cannot be created without meeting their spell prerequisites. Why would it make that distinction if all magic items were that way? That's because with any non-spell trigger/completion item, you can take that +5 DC to use spells you do not know.
It is not a take at all. The RAW clearly states simple magic items. What is missing is the definition of simple.
Fair enough. That is a bit ambiguous and does not help simple is not defined.
You you are emphasizing is not RAW, per what you posted above.
I am not arguing with you at all. I am pointing out RAW as I read it.
Actually, what I emphasized was RAW. The rules probably could word it a little better, but it is still clear enough where spells are a prerequisite for the item and prerequisites can be bypassed by adding a +5 to the DC.
No what I see you trying to do is get the delvelopers or the community to agree with you so that you can tell your GM such.
Since you are convinced you are right I will leave you be.
Thanx!
Hawk
Not at all. I don't need to try to convince the community to agree with me, as it has been mentioned by many others that an unknown spell can be bypassed with a +5 DC (again, besides spell trigger/completion items). Please do a search, you will see many threads on it.
But as for a developer, is this good enough?
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
(SKR, 8/18/10)
This can be accessed here: Link
Now granted, this specifically deals with 'being able to cast 3rd level spells' requirement, not putting in a specific spell. But logical thinking is if you can make an item (with the +5) that gives the allowance for a 3rd level spell (which is above your level), then you should be able to add +5 to use a spell above your level (unknown to you), as well. Nevermind the fact, once again, it is actually stated in RAW that you can do so.
Brew Potion. The ability to craft cure potions, remove [nasty condition] potions, and have several handy buffs available for you and your allies can be quite useful. The fact that you can craft one in only 2 hours is even cooler.