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While I know the rules support this, I wanted to get some opinions. A player asked me if it was ok to go natural weapon combat style from the APG. I thought this was a bit strange as he was using bow and daggers. I asked him about this and his plan was to take natural weapon style but use it to take weapon focus bow, and vital strike and improved vital strike that he was going to use for his bow also. He wanted to create a one shot one kill type character.
The part that bugged me is that he was taking that combat style just for the feats and ignoring the whole natural weapon theme. I told him no I didn't like it. If he wanted to take natural weapon style he had to intend to use natural weapons.
Would anyone else have done he same. How important is the spirit behind a option or feat etc.
While I can't speak for others on the board, I think you have a valid point and I would also try to persuade the player to select a different combat style.
The player is really losing out if they are taking the Natural Weapon style for these feats. Weapon Focus and the vital Strike tree, none of those carry any hefy restrictions and could easily be acquired during the level up process.
The Archery Combat style allows the Ranger to get around some of the tight attribute restrictions of the Ranged Combat feats, which could be very good for them. They might have been misinformed about "what they would gain" by selecting the Natural Combat Style?
All and all, you're running the game and as long as you are actively trying to find a solution that makes you comfortable and the player content, I don't see the problem.
I'm pretty sure the intent of that combat style is that you have to use Weapon Focus on one of your natural weapons.
A player asked me if it was ok to go natural weapon combat style from the APG. I thought this was a bit strange as he was using bow and daggers. I asked him about this and his plan was to take natural weapon style but use it to take weapon focus bow, and vital strike and improved vital strike that he was going to use for his bow also.
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I told him no I didn't like it. If he wanted to take natural weapon style he had to intend to use natural weapons.
I would have made a similar call in my game.
Specifically, if he wanted to use the prerequisite shortcuts from natural weapon style, any feats so chosen must be applied to a natural weapon (where applicable).
He'd still be welcome to also take weapon focus and vital strike for the bow, simply by meeting the normal prerequisites to do so.
The spirit of the rules is more important than the letter.
Going beyond saying as a GM I'd make the same call you did, hell, as a player I'd be embarassed to even TRY that stunt with my GM. He'd bust my balls for it, even if he is my best friend.
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It's been said before, but it seems pretty obvious that the feats are intended to be used with the ranger's natural weapons, thus the combat style.
You made the right call. If he wants these feats for his bow, let him take them as they become available that way. But the Natural Weapon path just doesn't mesh with the way he intends to do it.
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There is a third option here. Basically reskin the Natural Weapon path by calling it something else.
Say "you're not taking the natural weapon path, you are taking the 'one shot, one kill' arrow style handed down in your family for generation. Your family believed that the normal archery style of firing as many arrows as possible was foolish and wasteful. Instead they focused on making each arrow count with precision and focus. By coincidence your family's traditionaly archery style has exactly the same feat list as the natural weapon path, althougth designed to work with the bow."
This way he gets what he wants (the feats) and you get what you want (for it to make some d@mn sense) and both are happy. You could even look at it and after discussing it with him trade out a feat or two for more archery related feats.
Actually at that point just take the regular archery style and replace Rapid Shot with Wepon Focus, Manyshot with Vital Strike and Shot on the Run with Improved Vital Strike. That sounds like a really neat (and really nasty) archery style.
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There is a third option here. Basically reskin the Natural Weapon path by calling it something else.
Say "you're not taking the natural weapon path, you are taking the 'one shot, one kill' arrow style handed down in your family for generation. Your family believed that the normal archery style of firing as many arrows as possible was foolish and wasteful. Instead they focused on making each arrow count with precision and focus. By coincidence your family's traditionaly archery style has exactly the same feat list as the natural weapon path, althougth designed to work with the bow."
This way he gets what he wants (the feats) and you get what you want (for it to make some d@mn sense) and both are happy. You could even look at it and after discussing it with him trade out a feat or two for more archery related feats.
Actually at that point just take the regular archery style and replace Rapid Shot with Wepon Focus, Manyshot with Vital Strike and Shot on the Run with Improved Vital Strike. That sounds like a really neat (and really nasty) archery style.
This is a really good idea. The player usually comes to me with ideas like this too and we work em out. I guess this one just got to me that I didn't think of this right away.
This is a really good idea. The player usually comes to me with ideas like this too and we work em out. I guess this one just got to me that I didn't think of this right away.There is a third option here. Basically reskin the Natural Weapon path by calling it something else.
Say "you're not taking the natural weapon path, you are taking the 'one shot, one kill' arrow style handed down in your family for generation. Your family believed that the normal archery style of firing as many arrows as possible was foolish and wasteful. Instead they focused on making each arrow count with precision and focus. By coincidence your family's traditionaly archery style has exactly the same feat list as the natural weapon path, althougth designed to work with the bow."
This way he gets what he wants (the feats) and you get what you want (for it to make some d@mn sense) and both are happy. You could even look at it and after discussing it with him trade out a feat or two for more archery related feats.
Actually at that point just take the regular archery style and replace Rapid Shot with Wepon Focus, Manyshot with Vital Strike and Shot on the Run with Improved Vital Strike. That sounds like a really neat (and really nasty) archery style.
Happens to the best of us. :)
I think I may want to make this archer to use in a game now.
This is a really good idea. The player usually comes to me with ideas like this too and we work em out. I guess this one just got to me that I didn't think of this right away.
Actually I would be wary on this. The Natural style is an assumed melee style. Natural weapons are basicaly (with very rare exeptions) malee attacks. As such you may want to be careful allowing the style to affect ranged attacks. Look over the whole tree and see how it affects combat when combined with ranged attacks. It could be a bit off balanced.
Frankly Pathfinder, and most RPG's frankly, do NOT simulate and are not friendly to, one shot one kill playstyles. The whole HP system is there to PREVENT just such a thing so that the game is playable, heroic and fun and not a miniatures game. Allowing any character an actual ability to do 'one shot, one kill' is probably overpowered on any but the most low level monsters.
This is a really good idea. The player usually comes to me with ideas like this too and we work em out. I guess this one just got to me that I didn't think of this right away.
My only beef with this (and with the idea of more combat styles for rangers) is that it makes the fighter look like a chump.
The ranger gets 5 bonus feats in his career that he doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for, and this is on top of everything else he gets.
The fighter gets 11 bonus feats that he has to meet the prerequisites for, and doesn't get nearly as much other stuff on top of it.
This is a really good idea. The player usually comes to me with ideas like this too and we work em out. I guess this one just got to me that I didn't think of this right away.My only beef with this (and with the idea of more combat styles for rangers) is that it makes the fighter look like a chump.
The ranger gets 5 bonus feats in his career that he doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for, and this is on top of everything else he gets.
The fighter gets 11 bonus feats that he has to meet the prerequisites for, and doesn't get nearly as much other stuff on top of it.
+1 to this, I hate squeezing the fighter out (which has been done in all previous version of the game eventually), although thematically I can see the natural weapon fighting style as being a niche that needed to be filled.
I wouldnt let a ranger take a different fighting style than the one presented already for them, for fear of introducing more power creep.
If he wants vital strike etc etc in an archer there is the Fighter.
With respect, Ive never seen a +5 shock burst vorple keen bane Composite longbow of doom (I think Im forgetting a few enhancements) before.
of course not -- vorpal is a melee only enhancement.
Actually the only serious benefit of allowing such combination and renaming (Marksman Combat Style perhaps?) is getting Improved Vital Strike one level earlier than anyone else. Of course he will also save two more regular feat slots by taking bonus Weapon Focus and bonus Vital Strike instead of archery feats (which he probably get for regular slots) and will gain access to Aspect Of The Beast which is hard to get otherwise but remaining feats will be of rather little use to him, meaning that he will fill 18th level bonus slot with weak pick.
That was actually kinda my point; when figuring balance, dont forget the huge difference between melee enhancements and ranged enhancements.With respect, Ive never seen a +5 shock burst vorple keen bane Composite longbow of doom (I think Im forgetting a few enhancements) before.of course not -- vorpal is a melee only enhancement.
Yeah ranged enhancements are much better I agree.