Tark's Big Holy Book of Clerical Optimization


Advice

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The Exchange

STR Ranger wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:


The full BAB, Stigmata, Vindicator's Shield and me maximised self healing screams Battle Cleric.
Wearing a shield screams battle cleric to you? You should try a real battle cleric with a two-handed sword and see what you're missing!

Ahh, but I do 2hand a Falcata. To me the extra AC from the buckler is to protect you while you- swift aura of heroism, standard aura of menace (you just party buffed +2 to hit, save and -2 enemy AC), move to close (sucking AOO')

RD:2 swift divine power and proceed to kick a$$.

That's an interesting take. A buckler isn't a bad way to take advantage of the class bonuses, but I'd still personally rather have the extra attack (from not using the buckler) and the extra damage (from using a greatsword or falchion over a falcata).


TarkXT wrote:
And now the Gods portion is done. Will be working on the Multiclassing/PRC section until I get my copy of UM to peruse.

Again thank you for your work and i am looking forward to more of it (and i am eager to read a necromancy guide from you).

Just a minor thing though, the section about the gods is still an untitled document.


Tark very good job, hell I think you made a GREAT guide.

So I composed a cleric for PFS and thought I would summit my build.

Not 100% min/max but pretty fun so far.

Name: Negative Potential

5th level cleric

Contributed By: Red-Assassin

Category: Lord of Undeath60%-Bad Touch20% Battle Control 20%

Description: Rocking PFS legal brutal cleric.

Race: Human (feat,skill point,language)

Ability Scores:

Str 10
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 15
Cha 17 + 1 18 at 4th

Zon-Kuthion

Domains: Darkness/Death(Undead-Subdomain)

Alignment: LN

Traits: PFS allows 2
Tombraider (Ossirion)gives +1 to Perception and makes it a class skill, total +4 perception.
Sacred Conduit(Faith) +1 on Channel Dc's

Feat Additional Traits

Dangerously Curious (Magic)+1 to UMD and makes it a class skill, total +4 for UMD.
Deft Dodger (Combat)+1 reflex save
Feats: Selective Channel, Command Undead, Improved Channel, Additional Traits. (Blid-fight free Domain)

Equipment: Rod Lesser Metamagic Reach, Rod of Lesser Metamagic Persistant. Handy Haversack ... Scrolls Scroll's Scroll's.

First reach allows the use of touch spells at a distance. Should be one of the first items for a negative channeling cleric.

Second persistant so a low wisdom is bad for a save and suck character, force a target roll 2x, try to find out its weak save first. See second level spell list.

Spells: D domain
1st Obscurring Mist D, Sanctuary.
2nd Blindness D ,(Rod Persitant), Ghoul Touch D Fort (rod reach), hold person Will (Rod Persitant) Sound Burst (Rod Persistant (also good for swarms)). Both Domain Spells are Fantastic at this level. I think Blindness is better of the 2.
3rd Deeper Darknes(Reach) D, Bestow curse (reach)
Tactics:

So Channel negative at 5th level DC is 19, for 3d6 damage, without a stat item 7x a day. Death Kiss allowing healing an ally while damaging enemies, Perfect, Death Kiss will get better with levels.

Sit back and casually cast debuff's, combat control with obsuring mist. Deeper darkness, usually I would warn about this spell, but against some creatures it is still a great tactic 3x larger than obscuring mist. Sant up tell ally's to wait stay outside mist, move forward drop obscurring mist. Channel, mix with death's kiss.

Secondary tactic's UMD is 12 with should be 15 at level six with a stat belt and max skill ranks . Wisdom is not great for DC's but Charisma works well with UMD as well as Sorceror based Scrolls, or any Charisma Based Casters spell list, not sure about getting Skill Focus Use Magic Device at level 7. That would be +20 with 4 points stat item.

Burn scrolls when needed. Anything that isn't dependant on save, glitter dust ETC... Wand of True Strike can come in handy if you want to disgrace an enemy with a trip with a chain. Need to boost your save drink or cast owls wisdom.


Alrighty thank you for your contributions both of you.


TarkXT wrote:
Alrighty thank you for your contributions both of you.

I have a lot of other build ideas but pretty busy lately between work/wife/DM'ing Carrion Crown. I wanted to be sure I got the debuff/support build in because its a fun and effective build for support. A lot of the other builds are intuitively fun, having fun with support takes some work. :P


Lathiira wrote:

2) Undeath to death. This spell has 2 things you didn't note. First, it requires 500 gp of gem dust to work. Not much compared to a high-level PC's wealth, but still a factor. Second, it works like circle of death...which is limited to critters less than 9 hit dice in strength. By the time you get this, it'll blast your fodder undead...which you could do with channel energy, a mass cure spell, flamestrike, etc. I've generally called it a necromantic fireball for good reason. Even if you get use out of it when you get the spell, you won't see much in the way of 8 hd undead for long as you continue to gain levels. All in all, not a very useful spell, again IMO.

I think you're wrong with the gem dust, as clerics use their holy focus instead.

PFSRD:
"Undeath to death (...) Components: V, S, M/DF (diamond powder worth 500 gp) (...)"

"Divine Focus (DF)

(...) The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. (...)

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash)."


Turgan wrote:
Lathiira wrote:

2) Undeath to death. This spell has 2 things you didn't note. First, it requires 500 gp of gem dust to work. Not much compared to a high-level PC's wealth, but still a factor. Second, it works like circle of death...which is limited to critters less than 9 hit dice in strength. By the time you get this, it'll blast your fodder undead...which you could do with channel energy, a mass cure spell, flamestrike, etc. I've generally called it a necromantic fireball for good reason. Even if you get use out of it when you get the spell, you won't see much in the way of 8 hd undead for long as you continue to gain levels. All in all, not a very useful spell, again IMO.

I think you're wrong with the gem dust, as clerics use their holy focus instead.

PFSRD:
"Undeath to death (...) Components: V, S, M/DF (diamond powder worth 500 gp) (...)"

"Divine Focus (DF)

(...) The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. (...)

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash)."

You're correct,it's a slash not a comma. Objection number one withdrawn.


Just a few comments on the Greotus support/debuff build I posted earlier. This can easily be modified to a battle/debuff build, change the domain choices to Demon and Madness and allocate stats and feats for a battle cleric accordingly. If you wanted to go even more of a controller route, one could substitue the chaos for void domain, which adds a confusion debuff onto hostile spells, or even the darkness domain perhaps.
There's literally no limit to the potential for debuff/support, debuff/battle, or even all out bad touch builds with this deity.

Shadow Lodge

(Pulling the book off the library shelf for someone. Well done, by the way, I like this.)


Since this is near the top I'll give a brief update here on how I see some of the stuff in UM before I finish the doc.

Alternate channeling: Soem pretty good stuff in here Bad Touch Clerics and support clerics are really going to like what they find.

Archetypes: Really only the Theologian has me excited.

Feats: Versatile channeling and quickened channeling actually has me considering a channeling focused build. Seriously.

Spells: Lots and lots of nice stuff here.


Cleric guide wrote:


Spellcraft: Keep maxed for all the obvious reasons.

Probably a very dumb question but: What are those reasons? Can't think of many obvious ones. I mean, I know what Spellcraft does. You'll definiely need it if you want to do any crafting. But other than that? Scrolls can be identified with a cantrip. Identifying enemy spells can be done by the party wizard. And unlike said wizard, a cleric doesn't need spellcrat to learn spells.

While Spellcraft is certainly handy, with a skill starved class like the cleric I'm not sure I want to spare the ranks.

I'd also like to know if you have any plans on covering all feats. You mentioned the "essentials" for all archetypes, but that still leaves a whole bunch of other feats that might be pretty useful. I'm thinking about stuff like Steel Soul, that'll keep your cleric (and thus the party) going.

That being said: The guide is great nonetheless! Thank you for your work!

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Hmmm. I knew I like being a Cleric of Desna for a reason.

I'll have you know thanks to you I'm going to be calling that whole line of spells "Cheeky Bastard" from now on.


I remember being a Summoning Cleric once, summoned lost of help. I told the meat-shield in the party..."you want to be healed, buy a wand I can use on you..."


Blave wrote:
Cleric guide wrote:


Spellcraft: Keep maxed for all the obvious reasons.

Probably a very dumb question but: What are those reasons? Can't think of many obvious ones. I mean, I know what Spellcraft does. You'll definiely need it if you want to do any crafting. But other than that? Scrolls can be identified with a cantrip. Identifying enemy spells can be done by the party wizard. And unlike said wizard, a cleric doesn't need spellcrat to learn spells.

While Spellcraft is certainly handy, with a skill starved class like the cleric I'm not sure I want to spare the ranks.

I'd also like to know if you have any plans on covering all feats. You mentioned the "essentials" for all archetypes, but that still leaves a whole bunch of other feats that might be pretty useful. I'm thinking about stuff like Steel Soul, that'll keep your cleric (and thus the party) going.

That being said: The guide is great nonetheless! Thank you for your work!

You'll need it to identify magic items as I said, and to make them as well. Identifying spells is REALLY important since you're the one that will ultimately cure the effect it causes.

Plus, GM's like to use this skill to cover magic stuff that doesn't get covered under arcana questions like "Why did my spell fail?" or "What's the funky blue aura around the gem mean?"

Being a full spellcaster without spellcraft is a lot like being a weapon crafter with no knowledge about the particulars of the craft beyond sharp edges and comfortable handles..

As to feats, if I covered everything including the essentials the guide would be ridiculously huge plus each archetype can be done dozens of different ways. IF you feel there's feats that would work under a certain build feel free to contribute a build featuring that feat.


TarkXT wrote:

You'll need it to identify magic items as I said, and to make them as well. Identifying spells is REALLY important since you're the one that will ultimately cure the effect it causes.

Plus, GM's like to use this skill to cover magic stuff that doesn't get covered under arcana questions like "Why did my spell fail?" or "What's the funky blue aura around the gem mean?"

Being a full spellcaster without spellcraft is a lot like being a weapon crafter with no knowledge about the particulars of the craft beyond sharp edges and comfortable handles..

Ok, that's convincing. Our GM always tells us what magic items do and the result of knowlede and spellcraft checks are considered knowlede of the whole group. So I guess spellcraft being not all that useful for a divine caster is more of a subjective feeling born from our groups playstyle.

Quote:
As to feats, if I covered everything including the essentials the guide would be ridiculously huge plus each archetype can be done dozens of different ways. IF you feel there's feats that would work under a certain build feel free to contribute a build featuring that feat.

Don't really have a build, more like an idea. A dwarven cleric of Milani with the Protection and Liberation Domains. Take the Steel Soul feat at level 1 and you are VERY resistent to all kinds of incapacitating effects (like +10 will save against seplls at level 1). It's basically a support cleric built to be the unstoppable backbone of the party.

Anyway, thanks for the response!


I see that you say in your guide that you can create variant zobies, such as fast zobies, but i can't find where in the rules that is said. Can you point me to the right book and page?

Just for the record IMO you should be able to create variant zobies (just as you can create variant skeletons), but i can't find it and the undead lord's (UM archetype) doesn't help when it says that you can create skeleton variants but it doesn't say anything about zobie variants.

Edit: Nevermind i found it, it's just in a very weird place.


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Hoping to convince a few that channel Focused Clerics are worth it.

Channel Focused Clerics-
Can a channel focused cleric be good? Yes, but the effect needs to be worth the action cost. Quick channeling makes it a move action if you spend 2 uses, which as a channel focused cleric you should have plenty of.

What’s the most effective channel- Definitely offensive. Healing allies is nice but is still best done OUTSIDE combat via wands and spells. Offensive channeling vs a single target is also sub-par. 12d6 (phalactary of channeling) with a will for ½, when you should have access to 9th level spells sux, even if it IS a free resource. However that same 12d6
As an area affect which won’t hit allies as a move action is decent (and you could drop a spell in the same round!!)

Consider a cleric could in a single round: Cast a Quickened Divine Power (swift), Offensively, selective channel 12d6 (move) and cast implosion (standard) all in one round. Pretty nice being able to buff, blast all at once.

Now if you’re a positive energy cleric, channel is not as good for you (since your offensive channel only affects undead), so you should take alignment channel which lets you affect evil outsiders. Between both those enemies you should have plenty of targets depending on campaign type/location. Adventuring around the worldwound would work well for example.

Negative clerics need only selective channel so as to not hit allies. Other than that it’s all good.

Domain/Deity Selection:
Glory is almost a necessity for the free +2 to channel, that stacks with improved channel
The Sacred Conduit Trait adds another +1 for a Total of +5 to the DC.

Not many deities offer this domain. If you’re a Good/Positive Cleric then I recommend Iomodae (Glory-Heroism and either War-Tactics or Good-Archon for a party buffer/Battle cleric type) or Sarenrae (Glory-Heroism and Good for a party buffer/Battle cleric type or Glory/Fire for a party buffer/blaster type)

If you Negatively Channel then Gorum is a Standout since he is Chaotic Neutral. This lets you take the Versatile Channel Feat. Allowing you to spontaneously channel Positive Energy (to affect Undead or Heal Allies) or Negative (to affect living enemies). Tip: Be a Positive Channeler in ‘normal’ mode, since you’ll get more use out of the spont Cure spells. Go with the Glory Domain and Either Destruction (Destructive Smite is awesome, and either the Destructive Aura is awesome for Single Big Enemies or Rage subdomain for Melee awesomeness. Blood or Tactics subdomains also rock melee but are not as good as destruction)

Prcs: As a Channel Focused Cleric you consider HV since it adds effects (Sickened and Bleed) to your channel smite, then to channel for free.

Vindicators Shield grants the bonus to AC when ‘worn’ not wielded. A very loose interpretation says having it worn across your back should work. Cheesy. We interpret that the shield should be worn on the arm. If you rule like wise then you get the bonus when you stand around or cast but not when you attack (since you’ll be two handing your Falcata)

By 20 your channel damage is worth 13d6 (with a Phalactary and Bloodrain ability)

They can free cast doom or bestow curse when they crit (at increased DC if the wpn had a higher crit mod- hence the Falcata)

12d6 damage (phalactery) at +5 to the save (glory domain, trait, improved channel) with a free sicken and bleed as a move action is decent (probably combine a channel, with a cast in the same round)

Sample Builds:

Glory/Good domain Holy Vindicator

Touch of Good, Touch of Glory, +2 DC to Offensively Channel, Channel Energy 1d6, Selective Channel, Alignment Channel

Channel Energy 2d6, Wpn Prof: Falcata

Channel Energy 3d6, Power Attack

Channel Energy 4d6, Craft Wand
Holy Lance, Aura of Heroism
Vindicator’s Shield, Channel Energy 5d6, Quick Channel
Stigmata
Faith Healing (empower), Channel Energy 6d6, Improved Critical
Divine Wrath
Bloodfire, Channel Smite, Channel Energy 7d6, Dazing Assault
Versatile Channel
Divine Judgement, Channel Energy 8d6, Quickened Spell
Faith Healing (maximize)
Bloodrain, Channel Energy 9d6, Improved Channel
Divine Retribution
Channel Energy 10d6, Extra Channel

Glory/Destruction (Rage)Cleric 20
Destructive Smite, Battle Rage, Channel Energy 1d6, Selective Channel, Versatile Channeler

Channel Energy 2d6, Power Attack

Channel Energy 3d6, Quick Channel

Channel Energy 4d6, Extra Channel
Rage, Wounding Blade
Channel Energy 5d6, Raging Vitality

Channel Energy 6d6, Improved Critical
Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
Channel Energy 7d6, Extra Rage Power: Moment of Clarity

Channel Energy 8d6, Dazing Assault
Rage Power: Superstition
Channel Energy 9d6, Quicken Spell

Channel Energy 10d6, Extra Rage Power: Roused anger

Alternative Channeling: This is a double edged sword since you ½ the damage/healing on Channels if you use it. This is ok for positive channeling (since you shouldn’t use it to heal in combat anyway) but bad for negative channeling (since your damage now blows hard, BUT some effects are worth it) UM doesn’t tie alternative channels to deities but RAI they should at least relate to the deities portfolio. Cities for example is a great one, but you’ll struggle to convince a DM to allow a cleric of Gorum to take it.

Good Alternatives:

Battle/Wrath- This is a decent buff on allies (if you are a melee focused group) and an ok debuff on enemies. Thematically goes with Gorum/Iomodae.

Bravery/Valor- This is a good one. The positive effect grants new saves vs fear or ups AC to allies (including you) until the end of your NEXT turn. You channel negative normally so go for Versatile Channelers or Good Clerics who took Alignment channel.

Freedom- This is nice. Mainly because of the scaling SLOW effect when you offensively channel.

Luck- This is OK, mainly because of the untyped penalty to all enemy rolls until the end of your next turn.

Weapons- This is a nice one. If allies carry your deities favored weapon. Imodae- Longsword or Gorum Greatsword they get attack bonuses until the end of your next turn and enemies take a penalty to attack rolls no matter what weapon they wield.


Editing error.
The Build Cleric of Gorum 20 has the glory and Rage domains.
At 1st level he'd get +2 channel and Touch of Glory
NOT Battle Rage.

At 8thlevel he'd get the 8th level glory power not wounding blade.

Liberty's Edge

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This is a good guide, very comprehensive. Would like to see the spell ratings updated to include the Ultimate Magic spells.

I do disagree on one point about the implications against combat healing. There are situations where it is unavoidable for combat healing to not be done. In an ideal world, a group is well balanced and actions are well thought out before they are taken. But sometimes the DM is rolling hot or the Barbarian is foolhardy and kicks the door down before any preparations can be made for combat. Or the group really need to get a specific character back up. In these cases combat healing is unavoidable, and as such the Cleric is easily one of the best classes for combat healing.

I would agree building an entire character around solely healing is not optimal and is kind of silly in practice since wands can be used for out of combat healing. My Cleric's build is meant to have survivability through high AC and saves, effective healing and some combat ability through. My feats are Extra Channel, Selective Channeling, Tower Shield Proficiency, Alignment Channel and Quick Channel. I dropped one level in Holy Vindicator reluctantly, figuring their 1st level ability scales well with Clerics that are interested in high armor class. Phylactery of Channel Positive Energy works well with one level in Holy Vindicator PrC.

I find it's a good setup for Pathfinder Society because of the frequency with which evil outsiders appear and it's sometimes (admittedly, not that often) necessary to engage in combat healing when you're mixing it up with different party compositions every week. The consequences of death in PFS can be a bit greater than in a home campaign, because the party can't just drag you back to town and have you resurrected as easily, since it often comes down to costing you irreplaceable PA or gold which is considerably harder to come by in PFS.

While I wouldn't center a build around channel healing in a home campaign, I would stand by feats such as Extra Channel and Selective Channel, and the situational usefulness of Alignment Channel.

The real challenge of PFS has always been one of limited gold and other resources and the challenge that comes with not knowing what party members you'll be playing with this week or what monsters you'll be fighting around the next corner. That's why I like to be more safe than sorry, and have a character that can pull out 12D6 healing in a round with quick channel, and take some punishment with 38 armor class.

Liberty's Edge

Red-Assassin wrote:

Tark very good job, hell I think you made a GREAT guide.

So I composed a cleric for PFS and thought I would summit my build.

Not 100% min/max but pretty fun so far.

Name: Negative Potential

5th level cleric

Contributed By: Red-Assassin

Category: Lord of Undeath60%-Bad Touch20% Battle Control 20%

Description: Rocking PFS legal brutal cleric.

Race: Human (feat,skill point,language)

I like this build as a base for a necromancer build. I would personally consider using that UMD you're running to cast arcane spell buffs on Zombies such as Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Remove Paralysis (for fast zombies, functions as haste) and at later levels Blessing of Fervor. I think Augment Summoning might work for that kind of build if you reanimated a lot of the trash mobs in a dungeon and turned them in to suicide bomber Plague Zombies to kill your enemies with sheer con damage from their death effect and other Con damaging spells.

Augment Summoning would be a good feat for your build maybe. In a home campaign I'd get a few levels in Agent of The Grave PrC but I dont think its PFS legal sadly.

Liberty's Edge

My build

Name: Channel Positive
7 Cleric / 1 Holy Vindicator
Contributed By: LordZod
Category: Support Cleric 80%, "Offensive Caster" 20%
Description: PFS legal support cleric
Race: Human (for extra feat and skill points)
Ability Scores:
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 20 (+2 ability point adds at 4th and 8th)
Cha 16 (+2 from ioun stone)

Saves: Good Fort, Good Will, terrible reflex

Deity: Sarenrae

Domains: Healing, Fire

Alignment: CG

Traits: Reactionary, Birthmark (If I had it do over again, I would have taken Dangerously Curious)

Feats: Extra Channel, Selective Channel, Alignment Channel,Tower Shield Proficiency,Quick Channel
Skills: For PFS, you can't go wrong with the Knowledge or Spellcraft skills. Craft, Heal, Sense Motive and Diplomacy are probably better choices for a home campaign.
(Granted from Holy Vindicator) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Armor Class: 37 (10 + 12 Full Plate + 6 Tower Shield + 6 Holy Vindicator + 1 Dex + 1 natural + 1 deflection)
Special Abilities: Channel Energy, Fire Resist 10 (Fire Domain), Healer's Blessing

Equipment: Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection,+3Full Plate, +2 Tower Shield, Rod Lesser Metamagic Reach, Phylactery (of Positive Energy), , scrolls for utility spells such as Lesser Restoration, Remove [Afflication], Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge and so forth. Wands of CLW cannot be stressed enough for out of combat healing.

Tactics:
Wands for healing out of combat, scrolls for utility spells and for prepared spells opt for offensive spells such as Spiritual Weapon, Sound Burst, Searing Light, Burning Hands, Fireball and so forth. Good utility scrolls to have for PFS are (Lesser) Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Daylight and possibly Bless.

If your party is fighting the big bad, it might be a good idea to drop some buffs such as prot evil, bless, the animal buffs or perhaps a Blessing of Fervor at higher levels. This character can do 12d6 burst healing in a single round if its required through Quick Channel.
For matters of Armor Class, I personally prefer having high AC on a support cleric. Scrolls (or wand) of Ant Haul so you can legally walk around with 8 Strength and 90 lbs of armor, until you can get an Adventurer's Backpack. You could just as easily start with higher strength or forego Heavy Armor and a Tower Shield altogether. The Phylactery is for efficient channel healing and also because it stacks nicely with Vindicator's Shield (su) from the Holy Vindicator PrC. At low level PFS modules, the spell Sanctuary can be just as effective or more effective than high armor class.

Weaknesses: Slow movement speed, this build could be more effective with Desna and Travel domain, possibly. Armor check penalty can be painful. Low strength and low dex means susceptible to Combat Maneuvers Few melee capabilities outside spiritual weapon (and later spiritual ally). Reflex save is bad, like most Clerics.

Shadow Lodge

Reading this guide was pretty interesting, and got me really interested in running a Necromancer type character at some point. How does the Undead Lord archetype hold up, in the community's humble opinion? Giving up a second domain or ANY domain choice worth the skele pet and free feats and bonus to healing your minions? Seems like a pretty sweet deal in my eyes, though limited to certain portfolios/ideals due to the domain requirement.


Channel Smite and channeling negative energy could work really well now, due to the variant channeling. Take Freedom for instance. You hit someone, and they are slowed for a round.


Tark,

Thoughts on channel focused clerics and alternative channeling.

You can now do stuff like Heal allies for 1/2 12d6 + 5AC for two rounds (bravery/valour) as a move action.

or Bust out a 12d6 Quick channel and a 12d6 regular negative channel to harm in one round. 24d6ain't bad since it didn't cost a single spell....


So I have had the privilege to gm lord zods pc for pfs. I would recommend his build. I think quick channel should be almost mandatory. I was hesitant about it at the beginning. Locally for pfs, we have seen lord zods build my build cleric as well as a third positive channeling cleric, in the same party. Alignment channel has been very successful... five channels in a round kills.. Personally if you play a positively channeling cleric I would use these feats. I also like the negative channeling ability.

To address lord zod and undead. I am totally in agree ment except when it come s to adding templates to undead, for pfs. The resource cost is about doubled great for a home campaign not worth it for pfs play . I have used undead in pfs to good effect. The cost of a desecrate and some onyx is cheap considering the resource of burning a scroll to remove disease etc.


One build I haven't seen at all yet, I may make on later if I'm not to lazy, is the item creator cleric, Some items can't be created by wizards. Also, for the guide you could expand on the mention of using items to say that it's best to use scrolls/wand for spells which have non level dependent, effects. As in unless you need bless to last the extra amount of time just get a wand and cast the stuff that permit saves or better better effects with higher caster level yourself.


Last, Item creation builds rarely make it into guides. Mainly due to the feat cost, versus gold cost. Generally thought is it cost 50% less with the feats that you could do for something else, though custom made magic item creation is great for a home game.


Red-Assassin wrote:
Last, Item creation builds rarely make it into guides. Mainly due to the feat cost, versus gold cost. Generally thought is it cost 50% less with the feats that you could do for something else, though custom made magic item creation is great for a home game.

I just wanted to throw it out there as this guide seems to going for a more comprehensive view of the class.


Last_Rites wrote:
Red-Assassin wrote:
Last, Item creation builds rarely make it into guides. Mainly due to the feat cost, versus gold cost. Generally thought is it cost 50% less with the feats that you could do for something else, though custom made magic item creation is great for a home game.
I just wanted to throw it out there as this guide seems to going for a more comprehensive view of the class.

Comprehensive yes. But I don't want to suggest that people should make clerics based entirely on spending all day everyday building thigns for the party. Wizards are better at it anyway.

A channeling build is much more viable after UM. I still wouldn't make it the main focus though. Going NOVA on people has never been considered a fantastic build and you still don't get bonus feats to make it worthwhile distraction from others.

In anycase I updated the guide with what I had done for ultimate magic before I stopped working on the guide to do work that actually gets me money.


Hmm, I was looking to build out a 1/2 orc battle cleric of Gorum. I already have him built out to 4th level as a replacement in case my 5th level fighter dies in our Council of Thieves campaign.

Maybe I'll try out a Human channel focus cleric. My main concern is clerics are feat starved and with having to commit to a number of feats around channel energy, how is the overall effectiveness outside of scenarios where channel isn't the ideal choice?

Has anyone actually played this type of build out?


I've played kinds. Channel focused battle clerics of Imodae and Gorum.
The Imodaen cleric goes HV. and uses alt channel to buff allies and harm Undead/Evil outsiders.He took Glory (Heroism) and Good (archon)

The Gorum cleric is a versatile channeler so he heals/harms pretty much who he likes. He is a selfish cleric build who took Glory/Rage.

Both rock if you've got the right expectations.
Your spells/domains are all you need to kick a$$ in melee. The only metamagic feat they took was quicken spell.

Pumping a couple of feats at channel is fine, so long as you treat is for what it is- a blast ability that won't hit your allies. Doing it twice in a round works well (at 20th- it's a 20d6 that doesn't cost a spell slot)

Both builds are up thread.


STR Ranger wrote:

I've played kinds. Channel focused battle clerics of Imodae and Gorum.

The Imodaen cleric goes HV. and uses alt channel to buff allies and harm Undead/Evil outsiders.He took Glory (Heroism) and Good (archon)

The Gorum cleric is a versatile channeler so he heals/harms pretty much who he likes. He is a selfish cleric build who took Glory/Rage.

Both rock if you've got the right expectations.
Your spells/domains are all you need to kick a$$ in melee. The only metamagic feat they took was quicken spell.

Pumping a couple of feats at channel is fine, so long as you treat is for what it is- a blast ability that won't hit your allies. Doing it twice in a round works well (at 20th- it's a 20d6 that doesn't cost a spell slot)

Both builds are up thread.

Thanks. I definitely want to try a channel variant with Gorum since you can use versatile channel. What sort of stat priority did you put since Cha now becomes more important than it does for a pure battle cleric.


It's difficult without a 25 point buy.

If your prepared to dump Int
to the floor, getting 3skills per level (1minimum, 1human, 1favored)
That 25points is 29.

So.
STR 15 (17 for human, bump to 18 with level increase)
Dex 12
CON 14
WIS 16 (bump to 20 with level increase)
Int 7
CHA 14

By taking glory domain and a trait you add +3 to your turn DC. Improved Channel if you have room in your build.


Going to try and get the Ultimate magic portion and the rest done before Ultimate Combat since previews are coming out and I ahve some time.

One thign I can't really do right now however is a good run down of the Words of Power for clerics. If someone would like to write that section whose much more proficient in that area I would greatly appreciate it.

As for the channeling builds, I'm closer to admitting they're a viable build. outside of going holy vindicator. But not by much. Alternate channeling certainly has me leaning in that direction. Versatile Channelr esepcially has me leaning in that direction. Personally I love that feat and am itching to give it a shot at some point.


TarkXT wrote:

Going to try and get the Ultimate magic portion and the rest done before Ultimate Combat since previews are coming out and I ahve some time.

One thign I can't really do right now however is a good run down of the Words of Power for clerics. If someone would like to write that section whose much more proficient in that area I would greatly appreciate it.

As for the channeling builds, I'm closer to admitting they're a viable build. outside of going holy vindicator. But not by much. Alternate channeling certainly has me leaning in that direction. Versatile Channelr esepcially has me leaning in that direction. Personally I love that feat and am itching to give it a shot at some point.

GREAT.


Hmm, the Conductive weapon ability (APG) lets you use up two uses of your (Su) or (Sp) touch attack abilities to channel it through your weapon.

Could this be effectively used on some builds? Say Darkness. You can hit someone with your sword, and then give them a 20% miss chance.

You'll probably have at least a 20 Wisdom at level 20, so you can use that 4 times per day, which isn't bad.

Also, Grayflame is a great enchantment. +1 enhancement as well as extra damage makes it fairly nice. Plus, it looks cool. If you have a lot of channels, I'd say this is better than just a +1 enhancement bonus, since you get extra (unresistable) damage on top.


New combination from UC:

Darkness domain, Improved Unarmed Strike, Nightmare Fist, Nightmare Weaver. With this combination, you can cast Darkness as a full-round action to get +4 damage verse enemies in the darkness, as well as have them shaken. With Shatter Defenses, which you qualify for with Nightmare Weaver, you'll be hitting flat-footed too on your attacks that aren't likely to hit. By focusing on unarmed strikes, you an also gain benefits from the Style line of feats.


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More UC stuff:

The Evangelist Cleric could make a very good summoner, since they can Inspire Courage. An archer cleric with that could do a lot of damage, from their summons, Inspire Courage, and Archery. It'll take two rounds to get going (one round to summon, then next to self-buff with Divine Power, Inspire Courage, and maybe some other spell with a rod of quicken), but after that they'll be pumping out obscene damage all while helping the party out a ton.


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Cheapy wrote:

More UC stuff:

The Evangelist Cleric could make a very good summoner, since they can Inspire Courage. An archer cleric with that could do a lot of damage, from their summons, Inspire Courage, and Archery. It'll take two rounds to get going (one round to summon, then next to self-buff with Divine Power, Inspire Courage, and maybe some other spell with a rod of quicken), but after that they'll be pumping out obscene damage all while helping the party out a ton.

This could be sped up by taking Sacred Summons, allowing you to cast a self buff (swift action), starting Inspire Courage (move) and Summon some nasty things (standard action).


Aaanddd updated with UM stuff.

Looking forward to UC. The evangelist certainly sounds like the go to cleric for support archers.


TarkXT wrote:

Aaanddd updated with UM stuff.

Looking forward to UC. The evangelist certainly sounds like the go to cleric for support archers.

And the cruseder for battle clerics?


This is truly an excellent piece of work. Very detailed and enlightening.

Be sure I'll be referring to this whenever I talk Cleric builds.


It seems the guide is down, are you updating or moving it?


Seems fine on my end. Keep in mind the first link at the top post has a link to the newest one.


leo1925 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Aaanddd updated with UM stuff.

Looking forward to UC. The evangelist certainly sounds like the go to cleric for support archers.

And the cruseder for battle clerics?

Honestly, I'm not sure about that one. The main draw (to me at least) of it are Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Greater Weapon Spec. But those can only be done with your deity's weapon. The rest are shield feats and proficiencies, which may be of limited use. You might get better mileage out of a second domain.

Legion's Blessing could be pretty useful for casting buffs, especially with Reach Spell.


I don't have UC *yet* so i can't really offer an opinion, all i know is what i have heard from you.


leo1925 wrote:
I don't have UC *yet* so i can't really offer an opinion, all i know is what i have heard from you.

Oh, heh.

The bonus feat list is mostly stuff related to proficiency (heavy, martial, exotic), and shields.

Although my iconic visualization of a crusader is with a shield and sword, I haven't figured out how to actually cast spells like that. Very strange that so many of the feats (shield bash, shield slam, etc) on the list are about shields.


Cheapy wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I don't have UC *yet* so i can't really offer an opinion, all i know is what i have heard from you.

Oh, heh.

The bonus feat list is mostly stuff related to proficiency (heavy, martial, exotic), and shields.

Although my iconic visualization of a crusader is with a shield and sword, I haven't figured out how to actually cast spells like that. Very strange that so many of the feats (shield bash, shield slam, etc) on the list are about shields.

As long as you carry a non-heavy shield you can cast just fine.


leo1925 wrote:
As long as you carry a non-heavy and non-tower shield you can cast just fine.

/fixed

:P


Cheapy wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I don't have UC *yet* so i can't really offer an opinion, all i know is what i have heard from you.

Oh, heh.

The bonus feat list is mostly stuff related to proficiency (heavy, martial, exotic), and shields.

Although my iconic visualization of a crusader is with a shield and sword, I haven't figured out how to actually cast spells like that. Very strange that so many of the feats (shield bash, shield slam, etc) on the list are about shields.

Free action shift to off hand.

Standard action cast.
Free action shift to main hand.

Done.

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