Tark's Big Holy Book of Clerical Optimization


Advice

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Blave wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
As long as you carry a non-heavy and non-tower shield you can cast just fine.

/fixed

:P

Oh god, everything is so clear now. I've been wondering for ages how clerics used non-bucklers. If only I had read light-shield's text!


Blave wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
As long as you carry a non-heavy and non-tower shield you can cast just fine.

/fixed

:P

Thanks.


I have no idea I click the link and it says website unavailable, worked fine earlier today(clicking the forward link and all)
As it turns out all google docs are unavailable to me right now... grr


Choant wrote:
I have no idea I click the link and it says website unavailable, worked fine earlier today(clicking the forward link and all)

It works fine for me.

I run win7 64bit and using firefox.


Cheapy wrote:


Honestly, I'm not sure about that one. The main draw (to me at least) of it are Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Greater Weapon Spec. But those can only be done with your deity's weapon. The rest are shield feats and proficiencies, which may be of limited use. You might get better mileage out of a second domain.

Legion's Blessing could be pretty useful for casting buffs, especially with Reach Spell.

WTF! Details man, some of us live outside the US and don't have our books yet. We need Details!

What does he give up for this?


A domain and diminished spellcasting.

In fact, that's generally how the cleric archetypes are. All give up one domain, and gain other things. Some give up spellcasting, some armor proficiencies.


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I think a summoning cleric is now highly effective.

Be an Evangelist Cleric. domain doesn't matter too much. Heroism never hurts. Make sure you're Neutral Good though

Take the Augment Summons feat chain. That includes Superior Summons. Also take Sacred Summons.

Keep Perform(Oratory) up, and at level 11, take Discordant Voices.

Now, you can summon all the animals as a standard action. If you can find a way to get Summon Nature's Ally to your list, that's probably best.

Once you get to high enough level, here's what you do in most combats:
Standard Action: Cast Summoning spell to get a ton of allies. 1d4+2 Celestial Dire Tigers? Yes please.
Move Action: Inspire Courage. Now your summons are buffed up.
Swift Action: Quickened (from a rod) Blessing of Fervor.

Oh, and since you have Discordant Voice (from UC), everyone that's being Inspired by you will be doing 1d6 extra sonic damage per attack. You'll get an average of 4 lions when cast. They'll get 5 attacks on a pounce, meaning you'll be doing 5d6 extra sonic damage per lion, or 20d6 extra over the course of your round.

Due to the feat-heaviness of this build, Archer cleric probably isn't a good bet. You need 5 feats to pull that off, so it'll take a while.


Cheapy wrote:
Also take Sacred Summons.

I'm still not convinced, that Sacred Summons is worth a feat. By RAW, it only applies to a handful of summoned monsters. See my post HERE.


I admit I really really like some of the cleric archetypes. They're several notches above the UM archetypes.

My one grip is that the divine crusader only seems to work for a certain combat style, and it's one clerics aren't really good for. It can be worked around, certainly but I would have liked a larger variety of bonus feats to choose from.


Blave: Hence why I suggested being Neutral Good so you can summon all those celestial animals :)

Actually, this sentence:

Summon Monster wrote:
Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.

means Sacred Summons will work on any creature.

Unless you wish to argue that that doesn't mean they have the subtype, even though it's strongly implied. But that's similar to the whole "can you sneak attack after a Stealth check" thing. The rules don't actually say you can, but it's 'clear' that you can.


Cheapy wrote:

Blave: Hence why I suggested being Neutral Good so you can summon all those celestial animals :)

Actually, this sentence:

Summon Monster wrote:
Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.

means Sacred Summons will work on any creature.

Unless you wish to argue that that doesn't mean they have the subtype, even though it's strongly implied. But that's similar to the whole "can you sneak attack after a Stealth check" thing. The rules don't actually say you can, but it's 'clear' that you can.

Although i agree with you Cheapy but Blave has a valid and legal case, i think that a FAQ should be put up in order to make things clearer because i can see a lot of DMs not agreeing with us and it can be become a problem for PFS games.


leo1925 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Blave: Hence why I suggested being Neutral Good so you can summon all those celestial animals :)

Actually, this sentence:

Summon Monster wrote:
Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.

means Sacred Summons will work on any creature.

Unless you wish to argue that that doesn't mean they have the subtype, even though it's strongly implied. But that's similar to the whole "can you sneak attack after a Stealth check" thing. The rules don't actually say you can, but it's 'clear' that you can.

Although i agree with you Cheapy but Blave has a valid and legal case, i think that a FAQ should be put up in order to make things clearer because i can see a lot of DMs not agreeing with us and it can be become a problem for PFS games.

Yea, I FAQ'd the post when it was first made. But that's my stance, and that seems to be the intent.


Cheapy wrote:


Yea, I FAQ'd the post when it was first made. But that's my stance, and that seems to be the intent.

Can you give a link?

I don't remember if i have FAQ'd that or not.


leo1925 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


Yea, I FAQ'd the post when it was first made. But that's my stance, and that seems to be the intent.

Can you give a link?

I don't remember if i have FAQ'd that or not.

Blave linked to it above, end of his post.


Ok, so first impressions from the book.

Archetypes:

Divine Crusader: You lose soem spellcasting and a domain to gain plenty bonus feats. I'm abit wary about the loss of spellcasting particularly about since the only other ability they get is essentially a metamagic feat that burns the spell and another spell three levels higher to do touch spells to multiple targets at once. Trouble I have with this is a lot of these spells will also be Communal spells so this effect is rather meaning less. I'd call it a green if you feel like trying out a sword/board cleric and value the feats over the second domain and spells.

Divine Strategist: No sir I don't like it. There's just nothing compelling. It's high level ability relies on a score that clerics aren;t going to ahve much of to begin with. Call this one an orange to red.

Evangelist: Loses domain, medium armor proficiency and shield proficiency alon with some of their channel energy efectiveness to gain spontaneous casting of some mind affecting spells (not bad) the perform skill (meh)and bardic performance. Wait what? Yup, you get inspire courage now. Congratulations. My next character is going to be along the lines of what cheapy wants but it'll be a Gorum lord of the battling dead with Destruction domain. I will be so 'effin metal peoples faces will melt.

Feats: Guided Hand is Zen Archery for your deity's favored weapon. Dimensional Agility feats make the travel domain that much more insane. Performance feats actually become relevant to the evangelist.

I'll work on a more detailed thingy later got a game to run now.


I was thinking that summoning may be the best bet for evangelists. Having to take medium armor prof would suck. A full casting,no martial cleric is a weird thought, but some of their spontaneous spells are decent for combat.

Still need to think that through more.


I am with you on the divine strategist but what about the big boost to iniative?


leo1925 wrote:
I am with you on the divine strategist but what about the big boost to iniative?

What about it? You gave up channel energy to do that. Getting a high initiative is really easy getting stupidly high initiatives don't make you go two or three turns ahead of them it just means you go first. You can get a high initiative without giving up channel energy or your second domain. Luck domain for example can give you a reroll on initiative.


TarkXT wrote:

Ok, so first impressions from the book.

Divine Crusader: You lose soem spellcasting and a domain to gain plenty bonus feats. I'm a bit wary about the loss of spellcasting particularly about since the only other ability they get is essentially a metamagic feat that burns the spell and another spell three levels higher to do touch spells to multiple targets at once. Trouble I have with this is a lot of these spells will also be Communal spells so this effect is rather meaning less. I'd call it a green if you feel like trying out a sword/board cleric and value the feats over the second domain and spells.

I've got my PDF and sadly, despite wanting to like the archetype, I'm finding it hard. The feats encourage Sword/Board TWF which sucks on a 3/4 class even with divine power on. If you 1hand fight and keep the shield,.. well 1 handed damage sucks too.

I thought perhaps a Cleric/HV would be nice, but the already diminished casting and losing another 3 for the PRC is not good.

I can only think a Cleric or Gorum or Ragathiel or Imodae would like it.
1-Wpn Fcs: Greatsword or Bastard Sword or Longsword
5- Heavy Armor Prof
10- Wpn Spl
15- Gtr Wpn Fcs
20- Gtr Wpn Spl
(note: the book says 6feats at 20th level but I believe it's a typo)


STR Ranger wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Ok, so first impressions from the book.

Divine Crusader: You lose soem spellcasting and a domain to gain plenty bonus feats. I'm a bit wary about the loss of spellcasting particularly about since the only other ability they get is essentially a metamagic feat that burns the spell and another spell three levels higher to do touch spells to multiple targets at once. Trouble I have with this is a lot of these spells will also be Communal spells so this effect is rather meaning less. I'd call it a green if you feel like trying out a sword/board cleric and value the feats over the second domain and spells.

I've got my PDF and sadly, despite wanting to like the archetype, I'm finding it hard. The feats encourage Sword/Board TWF which sucks on a 3/4 class even with divine power on. If you 1hand fight and keep the shield,.. well 1 handed damage sucks too.

I thought perhaps a Cleric/HV would be nice, but the already diminished casting and losing another 3 for the PRC is not good.

I can only think a Cleric or Gorum or Ragathiel or Imodae would like it.
1-Wpn Fcs: Greatsword or Bastard Sword or Longsword
5- Heavy Armor Prof
10- Wpn Spl
15- Gtr Wpn Fcs
20- Gtr Wpn Spl
(note: the book says 6feats at 20th level but I believe it's a typo)

I think you picked your gods poorly then sir!

Cleric Build: Cayden's Dancer

Domain: Travel

Traits:

1:Twf
B:Improved Shield Bash
B:Heighten Spell
3:Weapon Finnesse
5:Pirahana Strike
B: Weapon Focus (Rapier)
7:Preferred Spell (Dimension Door)
9: IMP TWF
10B:Shield Slam
11:Dimensional Agility
13:Dimensional Assault
15:Dimensional Dervish
15B:Improved Critical
17:Shield Master
19: Bashing Strike

Me adn cheapy were chatting about this a bit ago. What you end up with is a cleric that can full attack on what's essentially a charge. :)

It's not amazing but I imagine it's a lot of fun to slap yourself with a couple of buffs and then suddenly D.Door full attack your chosen victim.


I'm starting to think more and more that Scribe Scroll is a Blue rating for Evangelists. You're going to need a few powerful scrolls of healing for when emergencies happen.

Or a Staff of Healing. I'm probably just going to buy one of those.


TarkXT wrote:


I think you picked your gods poorly then sir!

Cleric Build: Cayden's Dancer

Domain: Travel

Traits:

1:Twf
B:Improved Shield Bash
B:Heighten Spell
3:Weapon Finnesse
5:Pirahana Strike
B: Weapon Focus (Rapier)
7:Preferred Spell (Dimension Door)
9: IMP TWF
10B:Shield Slam
11:Dimensional Agility
13:Dimensional Assault
15:Dimensional Dervish
15B:Improved Critical
17:Shield Master
19: Bashing Strike

Me adn cheapy were chatting about this a bit ago. What you end up with is a cleric that can full attack on what's essentially a charge. :)

It's not amazing but I imagine it's a lot of fun to slap yourself with a couple of buffs and then suddenly D.Door full attack your chosen...

No. Not chosen poorly. Merely posted before reading the whole book :)

I'm only up to the Fighter Archetypes, but your build looks very nice.

I've gotta fully read this thing...


Sorry to break it but the rapier can't be used with piranha strike because piranha strike can be use only with light weapons and although the rapier is finessable and can't be used two handed for extra STR damage it is not a light weapon.


Bleh. Just power attack then. Another error is that its not bashing strike but bashing finish. Makes little different though.


TarkXT- Have you had a look at Gtr Channel Smite yet?

This feat looks crap to me, but I may be reading it wrong.

It seems to let you spread your channel smite damage over a full attack?
Why the hell would you blow a feat on that? I'd rather keep my regular channel smite and poor all the damage into my best (first) attack?
Is this better than I think?


STR Ranger wrote:

TarkXT- Have you had a look at Gtr Channel Smite yet?

This feat looks crap to me, but I may be reading it wrong.

It seems to let you spread your channel smite damage over a full attack?
Why the hell would you blow a feat on that? I'd rather keep my regular channel smite and poor all the damage into my best (first) attack?
Is this better than I think?

Better than you think.

Re: If you miss, the extra damage dice remain in
your pool, but any dice left unexpended at the end of your
turn are wasted.

I still don't like channel smite. But this makes it somewhat better. You can pour all the damage into one attack, miss, shrug, take second attack with all that damage in it again.


Plus, if you split up your dice and use Variant Channeling, you should be able to affect multiple enemies with your channeling effects.

For example, an Archer could shoot 5 arrows, each at different enemies. With Greater channel smite and the Freedom (harm) variant channel, you would deal some damage, and also Slow them all.

Not bad.


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Here's a loose Thaumaturgist build. Perhaps not as effective at lower levels than a martial cleric, but I think it may even surpass them at later levels. Has quite a few problems with healing / removing afflictions from the party, since they can't spontaneously cast Healing spells.

Race: Human is best, since otherwise your only feat for a few levels will be Spell Focus (Conjuration), which isn't super helpful by itself.

Half-Elf works if you want to go the Eldritch Heritage route. This'll really play up the "get outsiders to help you out" aspect if you go Arcane to get a familiar, then eventually Improved Familiar.

Classes: Evangelist cleric archetype. This is necessary. A one level dip into a class that gives Heavy Armor proficiency is a much better idea for this character type than for normal clerics, since it'll let you bypass needing to spend a feat on Medium Armor Proficiency. However, as primarily a caster, this'll hurt a lot more than it would to a more martially inclined cleric.

Domains:] Since you'll be in Light Armor, domains that give Aura abilities aren't all that great, since you won't want to be within 30' of your allies, much less your enemies!

Believe it or not, Restoration subdomain is a really good choice for this character, slightly better than the base Healing Domain, on account that Rebuke Death is lame. This will ensure you have some way of handling afflictions and damage your party takes.

War domain is a decent choice, especially Tactics subdomain. Going first will let you drop your summons before others, and they have decent support spells. Unfortunately, the 8th level ability is mostly wasted on you.

The Feather Domain is quite good for this too. Being able to Fly will get you out of danger, which is good due to the Light Armor. Perhaps more importantly, it gives you Summon Nature's Ally. This opens up Moonlight Summons, Sunlight Summons, and Starlight Summons. Starlight summons in particular have Blind-Fight, meaning they can fight in any Obscuring Mists / darknesses you drop.

Abilities: High Wisdom is necessary. It'll give you more spells to summon with, and since you're a non-martial class, high DCs will be helpful, especially with the modified spontaneous casting list you have. Con is probably the next most important ability, followed by Int or Dex. You'll be in light armor, so having a decent Dex will be helpful.

Skills: Handle Animal and Perform (Oratory) are your most important. Make sure to have at least one rank in Knowledge (Religion) so you know what your god is about. Also so you can play up the Evangelist part!

Feat Choices:
1: Spell Focus(Conjuration)
3: Augment Summons
5: Sacred Summons
7: Superior Summons
9: <free slot. Ideas for good feats include a crafting feat such as Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item, Medium Armor Proficiency, or Eldritch Heritage if you go that route>
11: Discordant Voice
13+: Whatever.

Humans can bump the feats down a level in that list, since they'll get Augment Summons at level 1.

Gear to look out for: Staff of Healing will be big, helping you shore up your support issues. Anything that can help augment your summons will be as well. Rods of Quicken will be quite good.

Golarion Deities: Clerics of Iomedae can cast Good Hope as a 4th level spell. This and Inspire Courage will be a great boon to your summons. Especially since at the level you'll get it (7th), you'll be able to do Inspire Courage as a Move Action. You could summon 1d4+2 Celestial Wolves (or 1d3+1 beasts from SMIII) as a standard action, and then Inspire Courage in them as a move action. Next round, you could use Good Hope or Blessing of Fervor on them to further buff them.

The build becomes really powerful at level 11. You'll be summoning 1d4+2 Celestial Lions (or 1d3+1 Celestial Dire Lions!), which do +1d6 sonic damage per attack (due to Discordant Voices), have +4 Str / Con from Augment Summons, +3 to hit / damage from Inspire Courage. If you have an arcanist in your party, have him delay Haste until you get to summon your creatures!


TarkXT wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I am with you on the divine strategist but what about the big boost to iniative?
What about it? You gave up channel energy to do that. Getting a high initiative is really easy getting stupidly high initiatives don't make you go two or three turns ahead of them it just means you go first. You can get a high initiative without giving up channel energy or your second domain. Luck domain for example can give you a reroll on initiative.

I am surprised that you think that 1 domain and channel energy is worth more than always going first, always being able to act in surprise rounds, and giving an initiative buff to your party. So if you always go first and always go in the surprise round, then you are almost getting 1 or so rounds out of this ability. Just that ability alone is enough to cover the losses and then later you get the ability to use aid another for caster lvl checks. Which wouldn't be bad in certain situations.

I am not sure how channeling is terribly great after the first 4 or 5 lvls once you can afford wands of clw. Personally the domain loss is a bigger deal for me but I find that the first 2 abilities of the archetype pretty much cover that loss.


thepuregamer wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I am with you on the divine strategist but what about the big boost to iniative?
What about it? You gave up channel energy to do that. Getting a high initiative is really easy getting stupidly high initiatives don't make you go two or three turns ahead of them it just means you go first. You can get a high initiative without giving up channel energy or your second domain. Luck domain for example can give you a reroll on initiative.

I am surprised that you think that 1 domain and channel energy is worth more than always going first, always being able to act in surprise rounds, and giving an initiative buff to your party. So if you always go first and always go in the surprise round, then you are almost getting 1 or so rounds out of this ability. Just that ability alone is enough to cover the losses and then later you get the ability to use aid another for caster lvl checks. Which wouldn't be bad in certain situations.

I am not sure how channeling is terribly great after the first 4 or 5 lvls once you can afford wands of clw. Personally the domain loss is a bigger deal for me but I find that the first 2 abilities of the archetype pretty much cover that loss.

Thing is you can get these things anyway without losing anything. Need higher initiative? There's feats adn traits that both boost it, even a simple Dex buff can do it. Need to boost your allies initiative? Take the Tactics domain adn do it from level 1. Losing channel energy hurts a lot depending on what you want to do with your build. No alternate channeling, you dont get certain feats, forget commanding or turning undead. Yeah, you go first and so do your allies, but you're not going to be blowing through spells until the gorup gets its act together and gets that wand. Plus you gave up your domain spells, so that shrinks your list down some. And adi another on caster level checks? Honestly if is was just straight caster level I'd agree but if someoen is making those somehthing bad has happened and you probably have better uses for your action. So no, still don't like it, leave the initiative monkeying to the bards and wizards, they're straight up better at it.


TarkXT wrote:


Thing is you can get these things anyway without losing anything. Need higher initiative? There's feats adn traits that both boost it, even a simple Dex buff can do it. Need to boost your allies initiative? Take the Tactics domain adn do it from level 1. Losing channel energy hurts a lot depending on what you want to do with your build. No alternate channeling, you dont get certain feats, forget commanding or turning undead. Yeah, you go first and so do your allies, but you're not going to be blowing through spells until the gorup gets its act together and gets that wand. Plus you gave up your domain spells, so that shrinks your list down some. And adi another on caster level checks? Honestly if is was just straight caster level I'd agree but if someoen is making those somehthing bad has happened and you probably have better uses for your action. So no, still don't like it, leave the initiative monkeying to the bards and wizards, they're straight up better at it.

out of combat healing is replaceable and turning/commanding undead is pretty situational. Obviously a channeling build would not take this archetype but channeling builds are hardly the most powerful or effective builds to begin with. why should that discourage one from aiming for a constant tactical advantage that partially extends to your party members.

The loss of some spells known is the only real loss going on here and I can umd the 4 or 5 spells I lose.

Also the wizard does not do this better than the cleric now. The divination spec wizard gets this ability without it buffing his entire party's initiative and he has to sacrifice 2 schools of magic to get it. Much more than the 9 spells known a cleric loses by dropping a domain.

I am not sure what ability bards have for boosting initiative yet so I cannot comment( I have looked alittle bit).


Some points.

1. Uses for channel energy are far less situational then times where you need to act in a surprise round. Besides 9 times out of 10 the one enacting the surprise round is the party anyway.

2. That tactical advantage doesn't come until level 20. So after your gruelingly go through 19 levels of non channeling to auto win a roll that should be decent for you anyway.

3. Wizard still does it better. They don't permanently lose those spells it's simply tougher to cast them. And while he does not in fact buff the entire party, by that point he probably won't need the buff anyway. Plus you can just be Foresight school and even get some buffs out of it. He didn't sacrifice anything he wasn't going to sacrifice anyway, that's all schools.

As to bards I might have spoken a bit out there. There are classes that still do it better.

Now if you want a stupid high initiative be a halfling cleric of Erastil and take improved initiative and reactionary trait.

+2 trait +4 initiative +1 Craven racial trait +2 racial from feather domain. Without factoring in Dex you have +9 intiative. That's higher then nearly everything you're going to face for a long long time. And you don't really give up anythign to do it with either.

Don't get me wrong if having stupidly high initiative is your thing and you don't mind the grimaces you get from your player's at your +0 bonus to initiative adn no channel energy at lvl1 then go for it. :P

I for one will be too busy rocking out with my Ulfen Evangelist of Gorum.


TarkXT wrote:

Some points.

1. Uses for channel energy are far less situational then times where you need to act in a surprise round. Besides 9 times out of 10 the one enacting the surprise round is the party anyway.

wow your party must be pretty impressive if they are only getting caught off guard 1 out of every 10 encounters. uses for channel are out of combat healing, the channel smite ability, or messing with undead. out of combat healing is easily replicated. I played tons of dnd 3.5 without the need for the channel healing ability. Lvl 1 without channel will not be too rough.

Quote:


2. That tactical advantage doesn't come until level 20. So after your gruelingly go through 19 levels of non channeling to auto win a roll that should be decent for you anyway.

well your iniative doesn't count as a nat 20 until lvl 20 but you get 1/2 your lvl and your party gets 1/4 your lvl before that.

Quote:


3. Wizard still does it better. They don't permanently lose those spells it's simply tougher to cast them. And while he does not in fact buff the entire party, by that point he probably won't need the buff anyway. Plus you can just be Foresight school and even get some buffs out of it. He didn't sacrifice anything he wasn't going to sacrifice anyway, that's all schools.

well they can't really cast 2 schools anymore since casting those spells eats up twice as many slots. So they will likely be using scrolls, wands, and staves to cast those spells. Just like a cleric would for the up to 9 spells they lose for dropping a domain.

Quote:


Now if you want a stupid high initiative be a halfling cleric of Erastil and take improved initiative and reactionary trait.

+2 trait +4 initiative +1 Craven racial trait +2 racial from feather domain. Without factoring in Dex you have +9 intiative. That's higher then nearly everything you're going to face for a long long time. And you don't really give up anythign to do it with either.

its not free, you lost bonuses to saves, spent a feat, and had to be a race that doesn't even boost your casting stat in order to do it. And the other guy is still giving out a constant buff to ally initiative starting 4th lvl.

Quote:


Don't get me wrong if having stupidly high initiative is your thing and you don't mind the grimaces you get from your player's at your +0 bonus to initiative adn no channel energy at lvl1 then go for it. :P

I for one will be too busy rocking out with my Ulfen Evangelist of Gorum.

sure lvl 1 might be a wash but lvl 1 doesn't last long. And I have played dnd 3.5 for a long time without channel for out of combat healing. Many a 3.5 druid dropped their physical stats because starting lvl 5 they would be wildshaping all the time.

For a support cleric, buffing and crowd control spells matter alot. But they matter most if you can get them out before the enemy is acting. that is all I am saying. I do not see how this archetype is any worse than a divination specialized wizard(which is according to a thread, is one of the better schools to spec in).


Why do I keep repeating myself? Maybe it's better if you jsut read the ability.

Forbidden Schools for wizardsA wizard that chooses to specialize in one school of
magic must select two other schools as his opposition
schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area
of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who
prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two
spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. For example,
a wizard with evocation as an opposition school must
expend two of his available 3rd-level spell slots to prepare
a fireball. In addition, a specialist takes a –4 penalty on any
skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a
spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite.
A universalist wizard can prepare spells from any school
without restriction.

See he didn't lose anything. At most he gave up a spell slot for that spell he absolutely has to have.

As to the other bit.

If you think all channel energy is good for is out of combat healing then you haven't been paying attention. You can channel buffs into people now with Alternate Channeling. And you can do it right out of the box.

What's even better? Now channel energy is required for things like Guided Hand which is zen archery+ with the right deity

And yes my halfling gave up a feat, a trait he'd probably take anyway, and a bonus to saves he might live without but in the end he didnt give up half his class for no visible gains until lvl 5+. By the time you catch up with this half ling he's already got his 8th level powers, an animal companion and everything his 2nd domain gave him. If I felt like say, being human I'd lose 1 point of intiative and have that feat for free. :P

And no it doesn't take an impressive party to avoid surprise rounds. It takes high perception checks, which consequently thanks to the Feather domain the halfling has as well. :)


yeah each time he wants a spell out of 2 of 9 schools of magic(a large group of spells), he has to spend 2 slots instead of 1. In comparison, the cleric gives up 9 spells known. Your feather domain cleric for example is getting about 4 or 5 worthwhile spells out of his domain. I am personally not going to be sad if I don't have calm animal, featherfall, or even minutes a day of beast shape 3 for example.

I am just unsure why you are dismissing an archetype with the reason that it won't work with specific builds. If you are aiming for something that needs channeling, by all means, keep channeling. But not all clerics are controlling undead or going for wisdom to attack builds. I have not thoroughly looked over alternate channeling yet. but it seems to be a bunch of very short duration buffs and debuffs. I currently am not decided on whether it is a big loss or not. It does seem to be piece for piece exchange though considering divine strategist also gives a buff to the party.


thepuregamer wrote:

yeah each time he wants a spell out of 2 of 9 schools of magic(a large group of spells), he has to spend 2 slots instead of 1. In comparison, the cleric gives up 9 spells known. Your feather domain cleric for example is getting about 4 or 5 worthwhile spells out of his domain. I am personally not going to be sad if I don't have calm animal, featherfall, or even minutes a day of beast shape 3 for example.

I am just unsure why you are dismissing an archetype with the reason that it won't work with specific builds. If you are aiming for something that needs channeling, by all means, keep channeling. But not all clerics are controlling undead or going for wisdom to attack builds. I have not thoroughly looked over alternate channeling yet. but it seems to be a bunch of very short duration buffs and debuffs. I currently am not decided on whether it is a big loss or not. It does seem to be piece for piece exchange though considering divine strategist also gives a buff to the party.

I think his beef is that you lose channel energy, which is very useful, for stuff that's only tangentially useful. Caster Support can be written off as not very useful, and highly circumstantial at best. Tactical Expertise means they need to invest into another attribute just to get some minor bonus. They're probably not going to have higher than a 14 intelligence (5 points that could've gone elsewhere), so while a +2 to hit while flanking or +2 to rolls a handful of times per day is OK, you lose a lot of versatility. You also lose access to quite a few nice feats (the one that lets you use Wisdom as to-hit with favored weapon), as well as the Holy Vindicator PrC.

Master Tactician is decent since it gives buffs to Init, but in my experience, Init is only super duper important for rogues (to get some SA in) and controlling casters. For others, it's just kinda important.

Giving up channeling also means you need to use your spell slots to heal people, so you effectively have less spells per day than a cleric of equivalent level.

If you have another cleric in the party, this archetype is pretty good. Otherwise, there are better ones.


thepuregamer wrote:


I am just unsure why you are dismissing an archetype with the reason that it won't work with specific builds.

Specific? You end up killing off half your class for an ability that doesn't start to really kick in until sometime after 8th. Every build benefits from that second domain, every group benefits from channel energy even a bad one, and if you really want to support people theres three archetypes other then Divine Strategist that simply do it better. (Well Merciful Healer is arguable)

But, that's merely my opinion. I already catch crap for how I feel about channel energy from the regular PFS players. I'm surprised one of em isn't in here bashing heads in for suggesting that not having channel energy at all is a good thing.

Anyvay. I'm going to get the builds people posted here up on the guide. Sadly there's not as many as I'd hoped so I won't bother giving them separate category links.


TarkXT wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:


I am just unsure why you are dismissing an archetype with the reason that it won't work with specific builds.

Specific? You end up killing off half your class...

ok clearly I am not reading the same cleric class you are. channeling isn't half of the cleric. Channeling is 5% of the clerics power. It is decoration that sits there so clerics feel like they have something other than just armor, 3/4 bab, 2 good saves, and divine spellcasting going on. Channeling only ever does much of anything during the lvls before you get a wand of clw. At which point, whether you have it or not is no longer a big deal. For the alternate version of channeling, you get 1 ability that either cures a condition, does a minute long buff, or a 1 round buff or a debuff. All of these things are less than pretty much any spell being cast. All channeling ever does is give you an option that does not use up a spell slot. So early on these things are great but by lvl 5 when you could be casting something from a scroll or wand, channeling is a waste of your standard or move action.

Anyway, rate the archetype however you want. I was just surprised that people could think that ability x on a wizard is amazing while ability x(with an extra bit) on a cleric is bad when all the cleric is trading away is a domain and channeling. The domain is the real loss and the archetype basically mimics the bonuses you get from domains except for some spells known.


Channeling to heal is better than using a wand of CLW, since it doesn't use up monetary resources. Plus, using a wand of CLW takes forever to top people off :p


Cheapy wrote:


Domains:] Since you'll be in Light Armor, domains that give Aura abilities aren't all that great, since you won't want to be within 30' of your allies, much less your enemies!

Void has a sub-domain that gives you a free Advanced Creature Template to one of your summons.


Jeranimus Rex wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


Domains:] Since you'll be in Light Armor, domains that give Aura abilities aren't all that great, since you won't want to be within 30' of your allies, much less your enemies!

Void has a sub-domain that gives you a free Advanced Creature Template to one of your summons.

I actually really really like this idea.

BE an evangelist of Groetus with Dark Tapestry domain and you can be a good summoner, dominate the minds of the weak spontaneously, and be the ebst damn doomsayer ever.

THE MOON IS COMING TO CRUSH US ALL!


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TarkXT wrote:
Jeranimus Rex wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


Domains:] Since you'll be in Light Armor, domains that give Aura abilities aren't all that great, since you won't want to be within 30' of your allies, much less your enemies!

Void has a sub-domain that gives you a free Advanced Creature Template to one of your summons.

I actually really really like this idea.

BE an evangelist of Groetus with Dark Tapestry domain and you can be a good summoner, dominate the minds of the weak spontaneously, and be the ebst damn doomsayer ever.

THE MOON IS COMING TO CRUSH US ALL!

Only problem is that it's one creature summoned per day, hence why I didn't recommend it.


Also, Goblins of Golarion add 4 subdomains to the mix. Arson (fire), Flotsam (Water), Slavery (law), and Torture (Destruction).

Flotsam is useful for the resourceful cleric, letting you reach into water and get an item worth 50 * cleric level. It's broken and only lasts for 24 hours, but useful nonetheless.

Slavery has a variant of Dominate Monster at level 8. The creature can decide not to do the order, but they take 1 con damage and are staggered if they do that.


hmmm Didn't see the once per day part, I still think it's a good Idea. Make one of those Celestial T-Rex's an Eldritch horror too, could be fun.

Arson sounds cute for a domain.


Right so I opened up the build page to editing for everyone. IF you ahve builds to add, feel free to add them. I only ask that you follow the rules I laid out and be civil, don't be deleting other peoples crap.


Question about the level dips: What do you think about a 1 or 2 level dip in Inquisitor?

My situation is I'm a 60% battler 40% bandaid (my party makes me do it, and yes the mage is a blaster evoker) who is level 6 half-orc desna cleric about to take level 7 and then go into vindicator. I get 1 skill point per level without favored class (which I need for HP as my rolls have been AWFUL). My first 7 skill points will have gone for 5 ranks in K(R) for the PrC and then 1 in heal and 1 in perception. My domains are Travel (exploration) and Luck. After my HV level to get martial and heavy armor proficiency, I was planning on taking another level in cleric to get dimension door domain power.

If I instead dip it into Inquisitor, I still get the domain power, the save benefits, and 4 extra skill points which would go into Perception, K(P), Sense Motive, Intimidate, and Climb (the last one just because I'm tired of not even being able to climb a ladder). It will amount to a +4 bonus to perception, climb, and knowledge planes, plus an extra +4 to religion and planes when identifying creatures, +5 to sense motive and intimidate (which synergizes well with half-orc). Of course also judgement 1/day. And I guess you could count repeating crossbow proficiency as a benefit, I'd probably use one.

I lose a point of BAB and a cleric caster level, but basically gain 4 more orisons so I can pretty much use any useful cantrip at will. My first level Inquisitor spells will give me a little flexibility since they're spontaneous.

If I do the second level dip, I lose another cleric caster level, but gain +4 to initiative and basically detect alignment as a 0-level spell. Plus +1 to survival which I'd never use.


Interesting thank you for reminding me those levels stack. Though honestly I don't think at this level it'd be worth it. Keep in mind HV does not progress either your domains or your spellcasting so you will actually need 2 levels of inquisitor dip or 2 levels cleric to get that domain power.

I would honestly delay the prestige class 2 levels and go from there you're looking at 4th level spells and your domain powers getting there peak powers. Nevermind dimension hop you're jsut about to get dimension door which opens up some interesting possibilities. Plus how can you delay gettign Blessing of Fervor? That's like the best 4th level spell you have.

After that you can delay for a bit 3 levels worth of waiting for 5th level spells is painful but the sorcerer had it harder much earlier and in the meantime you'll come into fruition as a true battle cleric with your new found proficiencies.


Actually I was going to go Cleric7/HV1/Inquisitor1 so I'd have 4th level spells and then HV then instead of back to cleric for the domain power going Inquisitor gets it for me.

So thinking Cleric7/HV1/Inq1/HV again (not sure if I want to take it all the way or not) I'd be losing the caster level and the BAB but BAB is partially offset by the judgement (for 1 fight per day only). Like you said 4th level is the kicka$$ buffs so with the proficiencies I'm good for battle clericking and the spellcasting can somewhat wait.


Have you looked at the Divine Scion PrC from Inner Sea Magic?

The prereqs are Iron Will and Weapon Focus in your deities favored weapon, and 5 ranks in Knowledge (Religion and Planes) and 5 ranks in Spellcraft.

You gain: Bonuses to spell penetration and damage against an opposed alignment, full spellcasting progression, a domain specialization (you heal spell level x2, later x4, when you cast a domain spell, as well as some domain-related skill bonuses and SLA's), alignment-based DR, and the ability to stagger enemies of the opposed alignment who fail saves against your spells. You also gain the ability to take the Weapon Focus/Specialization line with your deities favored weapon.

You lose: Channel energy progression, lower Fort saves. That's pretty much it.

Overall I think it's an extremely strong PrC, particularly for damage-oriented clerics. A Cleric 5/Divine Scion 10 could drop a Flame Strike hitting for 15d6+30 against evil enemies, staggering those who fail their saves. And if it's a domain spell, they healed themselves for 20 HP doing it.


If pure power is what you are after, screw the skill points.

Go Cleric 8 for the domain power and HV 4 (Only loses 1CL) then you need to either commit to HV all the way (for Divine Wrath/Retribution) or strait cleric for more domain goodness.

Really it depends on your previous feat selection.
HV make AWESOME Channelers. (If you are positive then Valor alt channel is an awesome buff and if you take alignment/quicken channel then you can channel blast in burst/cone/line vs Undead/evil outsiders for 20d6 without harming allies)

They also make freakin wicked fighty clerics from stigmata (which has similar value to judgement) and their AC can actually mean something.

If.you Love your domains more stay cleric

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