So a man walks into a bar and there are 8 Troglodytes ...

[Alan Sinclair]

Does he have to make a save against the stench ability for each one? (And therefore does the DM have to keep track of which trogs he has saved against?)

OR

Does he save once, but against a higher DC? (Which is far more DM friendly)

I am hoping that somewhere I have missed something that makes the latter case valid.

Cheers

Alan

[Talonne Hauk]

As a GM, I would have the player roll one save, with the DC adjusted +2 for every trog beyond the first, so a +14. Good luck passing the save, and better luck to you in reviving the waitstaff to retrieve your drink!

[Alan Sinclair]

Talonne

The +2 adjustment you quote, is that a standard pathfinder adjustment to deal with multiple exposures to the same ability.

In other words, if am hit with 4 identical poison arrows, is it +6 to the save DC but only ever one application of damage, rather than save four times and apply damage for each failure?

I seem to have missed this reference in the rules.

Cheers

Alan

[Phage]

Using the aid rule generally works out decently well, though usually need to apply a limit to how many times it can be applied.

Because the troglodytes are a CR 1 with a base DC 13 it seems really unlikely to turn that into a 27.

Making it a DC 15 (maybe 17~19 if you're feeling cruel) is still pretty hard to beat, but still appropriate for the predicted CR level.

[Kaiyanwang]

You have to consider that the 8 Trogs have another offensive advantage: the area of effect. There are few safe places in the bar.

With this in mind, just apply a -2, -4 max circumstance penalty to the saving throw.

[Tarantula]

By RAW, he'd save 8 times, and the GM would have to track which ones he'd been successful to.

While adding +2 per dose as the poison rules indicate works, it leads to the situation where if theres enough troglodytes, no one could make the save.

Honestly, telling them to roll 8 fort saves isn't that terrible. Then again, I'm a big fan of the GM having a dry-erase board to just mark combat stuff on. Keeps it easy and simple that way.

[LazarX]

The trog aura inflicts a condition, but not damage in and of itself. While the DM may hate making the extra rolls, upping the DC would make the encounter effectively a higher CR than it should be. You roll once for each trog that's in his range, once the character is sickened, no further rolls need be made.

If the character surives the encounter hopefully he'll pay more attention to his city map or hire a guide. :)

[Skeld]

A barroom filled with 8 trogs is going to stink. It's going to stink really bad. As a DM, and to keep my sanity, I'd probably just require 1 save. I don't think I'd add +2 for each trog beyond the first, but I might add +2 for each trog beyond the first for 4 or 5 of them (for a total of +8 or +10).

There's only so much stank you should be able to pack into one room.

-Skeld

[Asphesteros]

I can't find in the rules where it says auras don't stack, but I'm sure they don't. There's lots of auras with penalties, damage, and untyped bonuses which could make for absurd effects otherwise. RAI I'm pretty sure the idea is multiple sources of the same aura extend the area of effect of the aura, but save vs. trog stench once, you've saved vs. trog stench.

[Greg Wasson]

Tarantula wrote:

By RAW, he'd save 8 times, and the GM would have to track which ones he'd been successful to.

While adding +2 per dose as the poison rules indicate works, it leads to the situation where if theres enough troglodytes, no one could make the save.

Honestly, telling them to roll 8 fort saves isn't that terrible. Then again, I'm a big fan of the GM having a dry-erase board to just mark combat stuff on. Keeps it easy and simple that way.

This is a rules section, and by the rules...Tarantula is correct.

Character tries to succeed on eight saving throw rolls.

Now many DM's would adjudicate it differently with house rules to speed up play. Scaling DC or others. These are great ideas.

Greg

[Phage]

Wouldn't there only be one save per troglodyte regardless of how long the fight would go on though?

Also if they fail at least one roll wouldn't it be a max of 10 rounds of being sickened regardless of how many other rolls were left?

So at best you pass all eight, and then at worst you just fail at least one and are sickened for 10 rounds?

[Happler]

I agree on the 8 rolls, only need to fail one.

But I would also give the character the stench ability for 1/2 the rounds they spent in this bar. That stink must permeate everything in there, and the longer you stay in, the longer it takes to get the smell out of your armor.

[Asphesteros]

So say it's 8 Mummies in Tut's bar instead -

Whole party has to make 8 saves, miss one then paralized, open for coup de gras. With this interpretation it becomes statistically impossible after a while, even if your saves are good - 10 mummies 10 saves, 20 mummies 20 saves.

That's too overpowered IMO - I believe RAI has to be contemplating one save for the effect for that encounter, other trogs/mummies could impose another save in a later encoutners.

[kenmckinney]

I agree that making them save 8 times is broken.

I'd suggest the following, add +2 to the DC for each doubling of creatures.

So 2 Trogs = +2, 4 Trogs = +4, 8 Trogs = +6 to the DC.

Ken

[Tarantula]

8 mummies is CR + 6 or a CR of 11.

An 11th level cleric can put out up to 3 Freedom of Movements if he knows whats coming up, and probably has at least one ready at any time. Not to mention remove paralysis which is a second level spell, and can either negate the paralysis on one person, or grant bonuses on the saves for up to 4.

Since everyone has already made their checks, once its removed, no more need to worry.

[markofbane]

The rules do seem to support the idea of one save, higher DC. It looks like Stench is to be treated as a poison:
Stench

Spoiler:

(Ex) A creature with the stench special ability secretes an oily chemical that nearly every other creature finds offensive. All living creatures (except those with the stench special ability) within 30 feet must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 stench creature's racial HD + stench creature's Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text) or be sickened. The duration of the sickened condition is given in the creature's descriptive text. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same creature's stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

Format: stench (DC 15, 10 rounds); Location: Aura.

The references to poison pretty clearly show the intent to treat Stench as a poison. The poison rules go on:

Spoiler:

Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.

So the designers' breakdown of how Stench should work is pretty much in line with how most of the posters here intuitively think it should work. The only element I didn't see mentioned (sorry if I missed it) is that the duration of the effect should also increase if the save is failed.

[Happler]

kenmckinney wrote:

I agree that making them save 8 times is broken.

I'd suggest the following, add +2 to the DC for each doubling of creatures.

So 2 Trogs = +2, 4 Trogs = +4, 8 Trogs = +6 to the DC.

Ken

8 Trogs would be about a CR 7 encounter (if I remember right). Using that as a balance, the DC for a single CR 7 should be around 17. Making it a 20 (base of 14 +6 for the 8) is a little strong in my opinion.

The other answer (from a balance point of view) would be to set it based on the custom monster chart. Rather than working out a +x/y thing, just say that for 8 trogs, make one DC 17 or so Fort save to represent the saturated stench in the room. I could see it going as high as 20 in "worse case" scenarios. For example, they are packed into a small windowless room (say max of 20' x 20') where it is concentrated and only can move one way, out once the door opens!

But making it just a DC 20, it almost the same as the "making 8 saves" for success. Not many level 5-7 characters are going to pass a DC 20 fort save. A high for save class (without taking con mod into play), would have about a 25% chance to make the save, for the low fort save classes that is a 10% chance to make it. Dropping that to a DC 14 save gives the high save people a 55% chance to succeed and the low save people a 40% chance to succeed.

[markofbane]

Regarding the mummies...

As Tarantula noted, that would be a CR 11. At 11th level, a cleric probably has a will save of 14 or so (fast progression +7, wisdom +5, +2 resistance item). Eight saves wouldn't be too bad for him, or a monk. A wizard is probably around +10 and a slow progression class around +5 or so. Once they are affected for 1d4 rounds, they would be immune for the rest of the encounter. So if the cleric doesn't roll a 1 or 2, they would just have to buy enough time for the effect to wear off. The wizard might make it too, and have a chance to fend off the assault briefly. And that is assuming there is no paladin aura or other mitigating factors.

[Happler]

markofbane wrote:

The rules do seem to support the idea of one save, higher DC. It looks like Stench is to be treated as a poison:

Stench ** spoiler omitted **

The references to poison pretty clearly show the intent to treat Stench as a poison. The poison rules go on: ** spoiler omitted **...

But even with that, you end up making 8 saves.

Per the FAQ:

Quote:

How exactly does poison stack with itself (pg 558 of the Core Rulebook? How and when are the saves made? How do you determine the DC for the save when the target is exposed to more than one dose of the poison?

A character receives a saving throw against poison whenever he is exposed to the poison (such as when he is hit by an attack that uses poison). The DC of the save of that poison is listed in the poison's description, but is increased by +2 for every dose of the poison currently affecting the target (not counting the new dose that is being saved against). Poisons that have been cured or have ended do not count. In addition, a poisoned creature must save against poison once on his turn, but this can be at any point during the poisoned creature's turn. It cannot be delayed through readying or delaying action. For more information on poison and how it stacks, see the Poison FAQ blog post. (JMB, 3/22/11)

–Jason Bulmahn (03/22/11)

So, the first saves would be at 14 until one was failed, then all saves after that would be a 16 until the second failed, then 18, etc... This is because you are only affected by a poison that you have failed a save for.

So, per the rules, even taking it as a poison, it points to making 8 separate saves.

[Greg Wasson]

Happler wrote:

(lots of good stuff)

If people want to suggest other ways to make it quicker or less "broken", all is good. Repost it in advice or houserules. Pretty clear it is eight saves.

Just like sneaking into a barroom filled with 25 baddies. Twentyfive perception checks.

Walking into a bar with twentyfive archers w/readied actions to shoot the next person walking into the bar.

Bad things happen :(

Dems da breaks.

Greg

[BigNorseWolf]

I think the +2 for each poison only comes into effect once you've failed a saving throw. If you get hit with 13 poisoned arrows, and make the first 12 saves, the last one is still at the base DC

[Alan Sinclair]

Thanks for all the answers.

I think I understand the RAW situation now (loads of rolls) with a possible increased to the DC of the save after a failure.

However, I liked the doubling suggestion of kenmckinney, and shall be invoking Rule 0 to use that. It seems more straight forward to me.

Now I need to go and apologise to all my players for getting poison so badly wrong and applying the damage for each failed save. (No wonder they now fear giant vermin).