The Lawful Good Paladin with two levels of rogue for evasion


Advice


I was thinking by the rules i would like to make a Law full Good Human paladin/rouge for evasion and the saves and take the feat: Sacred Strike d6 turn into d8's for sneak attacks from book of Exalted Deeds, and be a scout dps for the party and still playing by the paladin code of Conduct..

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Dark Archive

Trying to understand if this is a question of whether it would work, or if you're just looking for someone to give you a 'Go Ahead'. I'm sure a lot of us have the Paladin code down. I don't like the concept, personally, but more power to you. Enjoy!


Multiclassing with Rogue is not a problem. A rogue is not required to be chaotic (like a Barbarian), but instead tends to be chaotic. Lawful rogue types might include undercover agents, military scouts, and diplomats.

The Exchange

Joe to the C wrote:
Trying to understand if this is a question of whether it would work, or if you're just looking for someone to give you a 'Go Ahead'. I'm sure a lot of us have the Paladin code down. I don't like the concept, personally, but more power to you. Enjoy!

Since this is the Pathfinder Society forum you could point out that Book of Exalted Deeds is not legal for society play regardless of question or statement! You could also point out that spending a feat on one average damage per round (situational, even) is bad form too, but that would be a different forum also, so I won't bother. :)

Paizo Employee Developer

Demoyn wrote:


Since this is the Pathfinder Society forum you could point out that Book of Exalted Deeds is not legal for society play regardless of question or statement

He's right. This cannot work in PFS play because of the feat.

Apart from excluding the feat, though, you're fine. A paladin can be a rogue, too, without any violation of their code.

Rogue does not have to mean thief or assassin, just look at all the archetypes - they span many different concepts, many of which can easily be LG.


Tanner Nielsen wrote:
Multiclassing with Rogue is not a problem. A rogue is not required to be chaotic (like a Barbarian), but instead tends to be chaotic. Lawful rogue types might include undercover agents, military scouts, and diplomats.

i would like to go 6 paladin / 3 rogue two weapon fighting i know it a lot feats but im trying something new just asking info on it we have 90 build points to start max 18 to a stat at lvl 1 so my stats at start would be like this:

str:16
dex:18
con:14
int:14
wis:12
cha:16
I will not be casting spells im going to be takeing Warrior of the Holy light core class Archetypes in the pathfinder core book.. and Yes was going for Military scouts role playing

Dark Archive

Demoyn wrote:


Since this is the Pathfinder Society forum you could point out that Book of Exalted Deeds is not legal for society play regardless of question or statement! You could also point out that spending a feat on one average damage per round (situational, even) is bad form too, but that would be a different forum also, so I won't bother. :)

I was approaching it more from a character concept idea, as I'd find it hard to justify a Paladin who has taken the time to learn to be sneaky. I think this is a case of trying to compensate for class weaknesses that just doesn't make sense, in the long run. No class is flawless, and to try to patch the holes with other classes feels too meta to me. But, as others have said, in a non-PFS environment (as this obviously would be for) no one is stopping you from doing this.

Shadow Lodge

sgt.pendragon wrote:
i would like to go 6 paladin / 3 rogue two weapon fighting i know it a lot feats but im trying something new just asking info on it we have 90 build points to start max 18 to a stat at lvl 1 so my stats at start would be like this:

As has been pointed out, the Book of Exhaled Deeds is not a Pathfinder Society compatible product. Your 90 point build would also indicate that this question is in relation to a home game. You will have better luck asking this question over on the advice boards. I've flagged the thread to have it moved for you.


Don't have the APG in front of me, but there are a lot of rogue Archtypes in there, that show there's more to being a rogue then chaotic, sneaky backstabbing...

The Investigator for one... A paladin/investigator should pair up nicely.

Or he was a thief who 'Saw the light' and redeemed himself to become a paladin.

A LG rogue wouldn't so much be a 'ROGUE' As he would be a cop or detective who knows all the crooks moves.

Paizo Employee Developer

sgt.pendragon wrote:

we have 90 build points to start max 18 to a stat at lvl 1 so my stats at start would be like this:

str:16
dex:18
con:14
int:14
wis:12
cha:16

I'm guessing this is for a home game. Probably belongs in the advice section. No worries. I'll treat it as if it were there with one caveat - if you're indeed planning society play, and not just a pathfinder home game, you use the 20 point buy as described in the book, making this stat array impossible.

This sounds like a home game, though, so let's go forward with that assumption. I would suggest Ninja to get some charisma synergy, but you want evasion. Ninja loses that. So Rogue... (I'm going to min/max, so if you oppose that, ignore me)

With those stats...

Switch Your Physical Stats, dump Wisdom to 8 (or 7)
18/16/16/14/08/18.

You don't need DEX. You don't need to finesse. And every point of CHA is eventually a point to saves, so the wisdom dump hardly hurts. Make sure you get to 2 pally before you multiclass.

You're looking at 2d6 sneak attack for the cost of 1 BAB, that's a fair trade, I think. Paladin, though, can be pretty level-dependent: your lay on hands, divine bond, and smite will fall behind. That being said, the best part of smite (in my mind), ignoring all DR, is always there. You should probably use your rogue talent to grab a combat feat to make up for the loss in straight pally ability. It'll also help your two weapon build.

Up STR as you level. Use belts to get DEX where you need it to qualify for better iterations of TWF. 6 Pally is a decent call. Get ahold of Silver Smiting Bracers. They let you smite as if you were 4 levels higher. Smite/day is a level dependent variable, and Pally 10 is one of those levels with 2 more smites than one 4 below it (7, 10).

Wear at least +2 Mithril Full Plate, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a ring of protection +1. This is the most cost effective AC build (as mithril ends up costing 4.5k per point of boosted AC). You want more AC, it's 5k for a dusty rose prism ioun stone, which ups touch as well, then 5k again to take your armor to +3. You are not a pure rogue, you can encase yourself in metal and go toe to toe with foes. Do so.

The Exchange

Alorha wrote:
Wear at least +2 Mithril Full Plate, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a ring of protection +1. This is the most cost effective AC build (as mithril ends up costing 4.5k per point of boosted AC). You want more AC,...

You run into a bit of a problem here, since part of the reason for the addition of the Rogue levels was access to the Evasion ability.

"Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor."

I'd suggest a mithral breastplate.

Paizo Employee Developer

Omega Man wrote:
Alorha wrote:
Wear at least +2 Mithril Full Plate, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a ring of protection +1. This is the most cost effective AC build (as mithril ends up costing 4.5k per point of boosted AC). You want more AC,...

You run into a bit of a problem here, since part of the reason for the addition of the Rogue levels was access to the Evasion ability.

"Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor."

I'd suggest a mithral breastplate.

You're right. Good catch. That'll teach me to min/max on 2 hours of sleep.


Alorha wrote:
Omega Man wrote:
Alorha wrote:
Wear at least +2 Mithril Full Plate, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a ring of protection +1. This is the most cost effective AC build (as mithril ends up costing 4.5k per point of boosted AC). You want more AC,...

You run into a bit of a problem here, since part of the reason for the addition of the Rogue levels was access to the Evasion ability.

"Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor."

I'd suggest a mithral breastplate.

You're right. Good catch. That'll teach me to min/max on 2 hours of sleep.

nice thanks for the info AND yes it a home game build but could you point out what book the Sliver Smiting Bracers come from they sound cool..

Paizo Employee Developer

sgt.pendragon wrote:


nice thanks for the info AND yes it a home game build but could you point out what book the Sliver Smiting Bracers come from they sound cool..

They're from the Advanced Player's Guide. Page 309

The Exchange

sgt.pendragon wrote:
Alorha wrote:
Omega Man wrote:
Alorha wrote:
Wear at least +2 Mithril Full Plate, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a ring of protection +1. This is the most cost effective AC build (as mithril ends up costing 4.5k per point of boosted AC). You want more AC,...

You run into a bit of a problem here, since part of the reason for the addition of the Rogue levels was access to the Evasion ability.

"Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor."

I'd suggest a mithral breastplate.

You're right. Good catch. That'll teach me to min/max on 2 hours of sleep.
nice thanks for the info AND yes it a home game build but could you point out what book the Sliver Smiting Bracers come from they sound cool..

If this is for a home game with open 3.5 access then you should check out the complete divine book. There's actually a paladin/rogue prestige class in it.

Contributor

Moved thread.

The Exchange

Any GMs out there have no probs with a Palidin using sneak attack? If so give me your reason (other than its in the rules) A Palidan player has a certain amount of roleplaying restriction as such I have having a hard time seeing someone who should act Honourable using viltal strikes (throat punch, gouging groins etc)?


Nerfherder wrote:
Any GMs out there have no probs with a Palidin using sneak attack? If so give me your reason (other than its in the rules) A Palidan player has a certain amount of roleplaying restriction as such I have having a hard time seeing someone who should act Honourable using viltal strikes (throat punch, gouging groins etc)?

lol it not like a paladin/rogue killing people in there sleep, if you in a war you don't cry what the enemy is use against you and how he target spot that r open in a suit of full plate it not "called shots" if it was a paladin would call shot on any evil any time to "smite" it viltal spots

You can role play that build if you smart i see it as a scout for law that IS to report and kill evil . sounds honourbale to me But it not like it sneaking the streets roof tops in the shadows detect Evil at will looking for evil don't put a class in a "BOX"....


Nerfherder wrote:
Any GMs out there have no probs with a Palidin using sneak attack? If so give me your reason (other than its in the rules) A Palidan player has a certain amount of roleplaying restriction as such I have having a hard time seeing someone who should act Honourable using viltal strikes (throat punch, gouging groins etc)?

If you're going to kill someone, doing so in the most efficient, least painful way possible seems like a kindness. I've always wondered why Paladins aren't required to try and use knockout poisons whenever possible to try and subdue opponents rather than kill them, honestly. But no, no poisons at all, even when the intention is to end the fight before things get more lethal, rather than to coup-de-grace the enemy.

I wondered this when I played an Alchemist traveling with a Paladin... Paladin left the game before my poison-making could really become an issue, but my ability-sapping and knockout toxins have helped me keep my Chaotic Good alignment in the face of the party's "practicality."

Edit: I can see why a Paladin cannot Coup-De-Grace an enemy. If they are essentially helpless, presumably you have other means by which you can deal with them that don't involve killing them. I just don't see why you can't make them helpless via knockout toxin.


I have no problem with a Paladin using Sneak Attack. They're not Cavaliers and some enemies don't deserve a chance to surrender. They're probably never going to Coup de Grace someone or learn the Assassinate attack, but exploiting a flanking ally or stabbing an evil cultist in the back-- disrupting his diabolical ritual-- both seem like perfectly legitimate actions for a somewhat atypical Paladin.

Dark Archive

The 90 point appear to be 90 ability points? If so, Str, Dex, Con, and Chr should all be 18, Int 8 and Wis 10. Those stats favor high abilities, and Int/Wis have little bearing on a pally. You'll haven plenty of skill points from rogue.

There is some feat from PH II that let's you keep some rogue and pally features even while in the other class. If you guys are using exalted deeds surely that less-powerful book is legal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Omega Man wrote:
Alorha wrote:
Wear at least +2 Mithril Full Plate, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a ring of protection +1. This is the most cost effective AC build (as mithril ends up costing 4.5k per point of boosted AC). You want more AC,...

You run into a bit of a problem here, since part of the reason for the addition of the Rogue levels was access to the Evasion ability.

"Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor."

I'd suggest a mithral breastplate.

Mithral breastplates are medium armor in form despite the weight, so no go on evasion with them.


LazarX wrote:


Mithral breastplates are medium armor in form despite the weight, so no go on evasion with them.

It require medium proficiency, but it's considered light for "movement and other limitations." I'd think evasion falls under the other limitations.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:

Mithral breastplates are medium armor in form despite the weight, so no go on evasion with them.

This is incorrect.

The Exchange

Demoyn wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Mithral breastplates are medium armor in form despite the weight, so no go on evasion with them.

This is incorrect.

Proof....?


Nerfherder wrote:
Any GMs out there have no probs with a Palidin using sneak attack? If so give me your reason (other than its in the rules) A Palidan player has a certain amount of roleplaying restriction as such I have having a hard time seeing someone who should act Honourable using viltal strikes (throat punch, gouging groins etc)?

A paladin swinging a magical two handed sword is always going for the kill shot.

Unlike 2nd edition's 'Backstab' ability, I've always seen Sneak attack as finding the unprotected spot and going for it.

Paladin's are also trying to end the fight fast, and with a little rogue training, they see gaps in the defense that normal fighters don't.

That would be my justification.

Add in the fact that these openings appear whenever your flanking someone, or catch them off guard and it makes plenty sense.

Sneak attack doesn't have to just be backstabs and groin kicks...


I don't see a problem with sacrificing two levels for evasion and sneak attack. Rogues dont HAVE to be the cliche 'sneaky thief backstabbing liar guy'. Think of it as an archetype for a dextrous melee combatant who can take advantage of openings in an opponents defenses, in your characters case.

Paizo Employee Developer

Nerfherder wrote:


Proof....?

PRD wrote:


Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.

Aside from the DEX, that's the whole point of Mithral armor.

As long as you've got the prof (and a Pally does) you treat it as light armor.

Even if you don't have the prof, you treat it as light armor you're not proficient in.


Legally it works. The rogue class does not have an alignment requirement.

The Exchange

Alorha wrote:


Even if you don't have the prof, you treat it as light armor you're not proficient in.

I was looking for proof that this was incorrect but yes thx for backing up what I knew was the correct interpretation. Mithral Breastplate = light armour for evasion.

Not sure I agree with the whole pally using sneak attack sounds kinda twinky, but alot of PF seems twinky to me : /

Silver Crusade

Sneak attacking a distressed individual who is a danger to himself and others with a merciful weapon can be plenty paladiny.


sounds like a fun build and good DPS with the right feats and loot...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You can even use all those rogue skill points for social and Charisma based skills: (maybe not) Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device!!!!!

Actually, my next character concept is a half-elf paladin with Skill Focus Use Magic Device. Half-elf might work well for a multi-class paladin/rogue, since they can have 2 favored classes.


yep umd, diplo and sense motive are real nice skills to have for a paladin/rogue

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jormungandr wrote:
I don't see a problem with sacrificing two levels for evasion and sneak attack. Rogues dont HAVE to be the cliche 'sneaky thief backstabbing liar guy'. Think of it as an archetype for a dextrous melee combatant who can take advantage of openings in an opponents defenses, in your characters case.

I miss the days when making such a choice meant that you were never advancing in Paladinhood again.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Personally, I am glad that some people have moved past the idea of 'your class determines your in character status'.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Personally, I am glad that some people have moved past the idea of 'your class determines your in character status'.

I'm still waiting for the day when people dont think +2d6 is twinky, and instead welcome complex, organic character. Sigh.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

We're out here, at least a few of us. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Varthanna wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Personally, I am glad that some people have moved past the idea of 'your class determines your in character status'.
I'm still waiting for the day when people dont think +2d6 is twinky, and instead welcome complex, organic character. Sigh.

The main motivation in the original post is "to get evasion". If that's not a statement of Intent to Twink, I don't know what is.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Considering his other statement of 'take a feat to turn SA from d6 to d8', when he only has 1d6 of sneak attack, he's not a very good twink.


I have a guy in one of my games doing the Paladin/Rogue thing. Seems perfectly legit to me. It's just someone who has a fighting style focused around catching opponents off guard in a fight and hitting them in the soft spots to end the fight quickly.

My guy even took Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. The downside is he doesn't hit nearly as often as he should (especially when power attacking). When he does hit (Power Attack + Vital Strike + Improved Feint), he's rolling 7d6+12 damage, I think (2d6 greatsword + 2d6 vital strike + 2d6 sneak attack +1d6 electricity).


Well if your main intent is to get evasion....
Monk/Paladin combo (admitedly rougher on stats but you get good stats to play with on 90 points).

Consider ascetic knight feat which allows some monk and paladin abilities to stack.

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