My crazy mind is hard at work yet again. Please confirm or deny the validity of my latest cheese:
Craft a staff of limited wish (inclusion of other spells is optional).
Done.
You can now cast limited wish once per day without paying the 1500gp material component. If you don't have the 93,200gp it would take to craft such a staff, increase the charge cost in order to lower the creation cost (so a staff that lets you get a free limited wish every 5 days would only cost 18,640gp). Furthermore, you can add a second equal or higher level spell that uses all ten charges to reduce the overall cost of the staff.
LOGIC: Like with wands and other spell trigger items, you don't need to pay for the material component, because it was already paid for during the staff's creation. This is all fine and well for things like wands, but with rechargeable staves, you can keep them going forever (albeit, only once per day--less often if you're a cheap bastard).
My crazy mind is hard at work yet again. Please confirm or deny the validity of my latest cheese:
Craft a staff of limited wish (inclusion of other spells is optional).
Done.
You can now cast limited wish once per day without paying the 1500gp material component. If you don't have the 93,200gp it would take to craft such a staff, increase the charge cost in order to lower the creation cost (so a staff that lets you get a free limited wish every 5 days would only cost 18,640gp). Furthermore, you can add a second equal or higher level spell that uses all ten charges to reduce the overall cost of the staff.
LOGIC: Like with wands and other spell trigger items, you don't need to pay for the material component, because it was already paid for during the staff's creation. This is all fine and well for things like wands, but with rechargeable staves, you can keep them going forever (albeit, only once per day--less often if you're a cheap bastard).
Using "all ten charges" to reduce the cost of the staff has been pointed out by the developers as cheese. Not technically illegal I think, but they said custom staves should be limited to a 3 charge use to keep with the spirit of the rules.
Other than that, I think it works. Cheesy, but works.
Man these item rules need to be rewritten.
Until you've cast it 50 times, you're losing out on the deal.
Until you've cast it 50 times, you're losing out on the deal.
Still extremely worthwile to many adventurers in need of trump cards. It's just do damn versatile: kinda like having a second arcane bonded item, except it's even more versatile than that!
The only balancing factor I see is the recharge fee (one 7th-level spell per day).
Still gets you past the expensive material component cost.
Imagine if a really high level character did this with wish. Free wishes every day. Tell me that's not cheese.
Imagine if a really high level character did this with wish. Free wishes every day. Tell me that's not cheese.
What would that cost?
edit:
1.25 million just in mat components for the wish alone, not including the base cost of the 9th level staff.
So for the same cost, you could make 9 +6 tomes. But then again, you could hand out an infinite number of +6 tomes with your staff. So if you've got the money, it's a good investment. It's also clearly overpoweringly gross and might piss some gods off or something.
Imagine if a really high level character did this with wish. Free wishes every day. Tell me that's not cheese.What would that cost?
edit:
1.25 million just in mat components for the wish alone, not including the base cost of the 9th level staff.
So for the same cost, you could make 9 +6 tomes. But then again, you could hand out an infinite number of +6 tomes with your staff. So if you've got the money, it's a good investment. It's also clearly overpoweringly gross and might piss some gods off or something.
If you have it cost 10 charges, then it will cost you 128,060gp to craft. So, after that initial creation fee, and one of your 9th-level spell slots every day of your life, you get one free wish spell every 10 days.
Some players might not go for it. Some definitely will.
EDIT: It's well worth mentioning that you can do this to skip the expensive material component cost on ANY spell, not just wish/limited wish.
Thanks RD. I now have my next house rule.
Thanks RD. I now have my next house rule.
It's what I'm here for: to close the gaps!
EDIT: What precisely is your house rule going to be? That spell trigger items still require expensive components?
Thanks RD. I now have my next house rule.It's what I'm here for: to close the gaps!
EDIT: What precisely is your house rule going to be? That spell trigger items still require expensive components?
At first I was going to do a ban of such items, but I will just make the cost of the material component inversely proportional to the amount of charges needed for the staff.
Hopefully I stated that correctly.
Thanks RD. I now have my next house rule.It's what I'm here for: to close the gaps!
EDIT: What precisely is your house rule going to be? That spell trigger items still require expensive components?
At first I was going to do a ban of such items, but I will just make the cost of the material component inversely proportional to the amount of charges needed for the staff.
Hopefully I stated that correctly.
So, when creating a staff whose spell requires 10 charges, an expensive material component would cost 10 times as much rather than a tenth?
Currently when you create a staff you must expend expensive components as if you had cast the spell 50 times in addition to the cost of the staff itself. In addition you must cast the spell in question 50 times (as it is eaten out of your memory for the day for each casting) spend all the time it takes to make the staff, just so you can use a seventh level spell slot to cast a seventh level spell 1 time per day without paying for the cost of the material components for the seventh level spell like you normally would?
Currently when you create a staff you must expend expensive components as if you had cast the spell 50 times in addition to the cost of the staff itself. In addition you must cast the spell in question 50 times (as it is eaten out of your memory for the day for each casting) spend all the time it takes to make the staff, just so you can use a seventh level spell slot to cast a seventh level spell 1 time per day without paying for the cost of the material components for the seventh level spell like you normally would?
Yep. This kinda cheese isn't meant for everybody.
However, if you are going to prepare limited wish every day anyway, you might as well get yourself one of the above staves and save yourself some money (and maybe your character's/a party member's life) in the long run.
Heck, you might save your party thousands of gold in resurrection costs just for having such a trump card each day.
The one every 10 days sounds like a cheap item, but honestly you are giving up 10 spells slots over 10 days to cast that one spell without a spell component.
I'd probably allow it, and if it got to the point of ridiculousness (harmful to gameplay), I'd start sending an Inevitable to "iron out the wrinkle".
So, when creating a staff whose spell requires 10 charges, an expensive material component would cost 10 times as much rather than a tenth?Thanks RD. I now have my next house rule.It's what I'm here for: to close the gaps!
EDIT: What precisely is your house rule going to be? That spell trigger items still require expensive components?
At first I was going to do a ban of such items, but I will just make the cost of the material component inversely proportional to the amount of charges needed for the staff.
Hopefully I stated that correctly.
They have to have a material component for each charge, so yes. If each casting is taking 3 charges then the cost will be multiplied by 10/3 instead of 10.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Man these item rules need to be rewritten.
No, not really. The DM is the gatekeeper to use of these item creation rules and the DM is suggested to follow the "similar item" and "similar power" checks before going to the creation rules.
So if the DM thinks a 10 charge staff with daily free limited wish effect is priced to something else of "similar power" then it is his game afterall.
Yep. This kinda cheese isn't meant for everybody.
However, if you are going to prepare limited wish every day anyway, you might as well get yourself one of the above staves and save yourself some money (and maybe your character's/a party member's life) in the long run.
Heck, you might save your party thousands of gold in resurrection costs just for having such a trump card each day.
Oh no, I wasn't calling it cheese -- I was simply amused at the amount of loops and hoops you'll jump through for something that will have no benefit for the first 51 castings of the spell in question after you are done.
Man these item rules need to be rewritten.No, not really. The DM is the gatekeeper to use of these item creation rules and the DM is suggested to follow the "similar item" and "similar power" checks before going to the creation rules.
So if the DM thinks a 10 charge staff with daily free limited wish effect is priced to something else of "similar power" then it is his game afterall.
Meh.
If broken rules didn't need to be rewritten then we'd all still be playing 1st edition DND, back when the GM basically had to invent/change/houserule everything. The more complete a system is, the fewer houserules are necessary to run it without the game getting out of whack. That's a pretty universal truth I'd think, across any tabletop gaming framework.
RD - yeah, I think the 'fix' is to just assign the mat component cost at the end, after the charge reduction instead of before it. At least that way it'll cost the right amount.
Also, fwiw, I would never want a full blown Wish Staff that cost more than 2 charges to activate, because then you could't +5tome someone with it. Consecutive stat bump wishes have to be done in short succession, one after another, not tacked on weeks later. At least that's how Wish reads to me.
Compared to an efreeti bottle, its not too bad. You can buy efreeti bottles for 145,000 GP. Hope you get the wishes, spend 2 of them on more efreeti bottles, and the last one on whatever, repeat. You have 1/10 chance every day to get wishes, or to get attacked by an efreet, and 8/10 that you get an efreet who will listen to you for 10 minutes/day.
I agree with beej67, in that the solution is simply in assigning the material component cost at the end. This still makes a staff of limited wish viable but puts your staff of wish way outside the bounds with material costs alone of 1.25 million gp.
I don't see the freak out over limited wish in this situation, since it would cost upwards of 80,000gp, and at the level where you can start to afford to shell out that kind of money, it isn't particularly amazing.
I agree with beej67, in that the solution is simply in assigning the material component cost at the end. This still makes a staff of limited wish viable but puts your staff of wish way outside the bounds with material costs alone of 1.25 million gp.
Hehe, yeah. In some game worlds you'd have to leverage entire economies to come up with that sort of cash.
Creative Director
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The magic item creation guidelines (note I did not use the word "rules" there) work fine, because they have a guardian. Your GM.
If you want to build a staff of limited wishes, you need your GM's permission, since something like that doesn't yet exist in the rules. Heck, even if it did, you'd still need permission, because the GM is the one who decides what items exist in the game world your character is in.
In any case, if a GM is cool with allowing you to build an item like this, there ya go. But don't be surprised if he upcharges you for the creation, or charges gp to recharge the item!
Heck as a GM if you managed to make it I wouldn't charge you a dime on recharging -- you've suffered enough just getting it!
The magic item creation guidelines (note I did not use the word "rules" there) work fine, because they have a guardian. Your GM.
If you want to build a staff of limited wishes, you need your GM's permission, since something like that doesn't yet exist in the rules. Heck, even if it did, you'd still need permission, because the GM is the one who decides what items exist in the game world your character is in.
In any case, if a GM is cool with allowing you to build an item like this, there ya go. But don't be surprised if he upcharges you for the creation, or charges gp to recharge the item!
Are staves not like potions, scrolls, and wands in that the very idea of them is that they aren't typically found in the rules? After all, they ARE based on spells and so it would be impractical to stat out every possible potion, scroll, staff or wand when you could just condense it to a couple of pages of "this is how you make them" and "this is what they do" (as the v3.5 developers did).
If you were talking about rings, rods, unique weapons and armor, or wondrous items than I'd agree with you. Spell based items are an entirely different matter, however.
Duh. If there would be an assumption of "any spell goes" for staves like there is for potions/wands/scrolls, there would be no staves in the book, just guidelines for making them.
Or is it yet another "I don't quite get the idea of rule 0" aaand "there must be rules for everything" thread?
I'm just saying Craft Staff is a crap feat if you can only make the ones in the book. You can only really use one staff already. If you can't make your own, why ever even take the feat? Just buy one from some other wizard and be done with it!
Also, no need to be so terse.
The magic item creation guidelines (note I did not use the word "rules" there) work fine, because they have a guardian. Your GM.
If you want to build a staff of limited wishes, you need your GM's permission, since something like that doesn't yet exist in the rules. Heck, even if it did, you'd still need permission, because the GM is the one who decides what items exist in the game world your character is in.
In any case, if a GM is cool with allowing you to build an item like this, there ya go. But don't be surprised if he upcharges you for the creation, or charges gp to recharge the item!
Are staves not like potions, scrolls, and wands in that the very idea of them is that they aren't typically found in the rules? After all, they ARE based on spells and so it would be impractical to stat out every possible potion, scroll, staff or wand when you could just condense it to a couple of pages of "this is how you make them" and "this is what they do" (as the v3.5 developers did).
If you were talking about rings, rods, unique weapons and armor, or wondrous items than I'd agree with you. Spell based items are an entirely different matter, however.
All magic item creation is up the DM, at least for custom stuff anyway. This is nothing new, and it is done that way because I am pretty sure there are more loopholes that can be abused, and a custom item may be worthless in one person's game, but be worth a lot in another and the GM is normally the best person to determine how good a custom item will be in his game, hence the world guidelines. As someone who was on WoTC's boards I am surprised this is not known to you. This is not just a pathfinder understanding.
edit:Generally speaking potions and scrolls are going to be exact.
The magic item creation guidelines (note I did not use the word "rules" there) work fine, because they have a guardian. Your GM.
If you want to build a staff of limited wishes, you need your GM's permission, since something like that doesn't yet exist in the rules. Heck, even if it did, you'd still need permission, because the GM is the one who decides what items exist in the game world your character is in.
In any case, if a GM is cool with allowing you to build an item like this, there ya go. But don't be surprised if he upcharges you for the creation, or charges gp to recharge the item!
Are staves not like potions, scrolls, and wands in that the very idea of them is that they aren't typically found in the rules? After all, they ARE based on spells and so it would be impractical to stat out every possible potion, scroll, staff or wand when you could just condense it to a couple of pages of "this is how you make them" and "this is what they do" (as the v3.5 developers did).
If you were talking about rings, rods, unique weapons and armor, or wondrous items than I'd agree with you. Spell based items are an entirely different matter, however.
All magic item creation is up the DM, at least for custom stuff anyway. This is nothing new, and it is done that way because I am pretty sure there are more loopholes that can be abused, and a custom item may be worthless in one person's game, but be worth a lot in another and the GM is normally the best person to determine how good a custom item will be in his game, hence the world guidelines. As someone who was on WoTC's boards I am surprised this is not known to you. This is not just a pathfinder understanding.
edit:Generally speaking potions and scrolls are going to be exact.
It IS known to me, I just didn't think it really applied to spell items such as potions, scrolls, staves, and wands (for the reasons described above).
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Duh. If there would be an assumption of "any spell goes" for staves like there is for potions/wands/scrolls, there would be no staves in the book, just guidelines for making them.
Or is it yet another "I don't quite get the idea of rule 0" aaand "there must be rules for everything" thread?
I'm just saying Craft Staff is a crap feat if you can only make the ones in the book. You can only really use one staff already. If you can't make your own, why ever even take the feat? Just buy one from some other wizard and be done with it!
Also, no need to be so terse.
I'm not exactly sure, but having a 50% discount on something that's rather expensive to begin with is rather a good reason to take the feat.
Any non-standard crafting ideas fall into "DM's discretion" category. Unless you want crown of at-will heal around.
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Creative Director
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Staves require a bit more creativity on the creator's part than scrolls, wands, or potions. Those three not only are one use or unrechargable, but they're also a lot more limited than are staves in a lot of ways. They've got a lot of built-in limitations that prevent silly abuse from happening.
Staves are a different matter. They're a lot more expensive, first of all. But more to the point, they're NOT just random lists of spells thrown together. They have themes, and new staves should have themes as well. A staff that simply does one spell is, frankly, boring. It breaks the idea that a staff contains multiple spells and effectively just turns the staff into a rechargeable wand, which is not what staves are supposed to be.
As a result, you can think of staves as something more unique and flavorful than wands, scrolls, and potions. That's why, after all, we don't just list combination formulas for them but actually DO bother to list specific staves—those represent the most common staves out there, after all.
Of course, if you as a GM aren't bothered by one-spell staves or don't care about the flavor text involving spell combination in a staff, that's fine... But you should keep in mind that staff design philosophy is not the Paizo staff design philosophy.
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Creative Director
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Duh. If there would be an assumption of "any spell goes" for staves like there is for potions/wands/scrolls, there would be no staves in the book, just guidelines for making them.
Or is it yet another "I don't quite get the idea of rule 0" aaand "there must be rules for everything" thread?
Correct... but you could have made your point without using words like "Duh" and the like. Please try to treat other posters with the respect you hope to be treated with.
AKA: Don't be a jerk.
My crazy mind is hard at work yet again. Please confirm or deny the validity of my latest cheese:
Craft a staff of limited wish (inclusion of other spells is optional).
Done.
You can now cast limited wish once per day without paying the 1500gp material component. If you don't have the 93,200gp it would take to craft such a staff, increase the charge cost in order to lower the creation cost (so a staff that lets you get a free limited wish every 5 days would only cost 18,640gp). Furthermore, you can add a second equal or higher level spell that uses all ten charges to reduce the overall cost of the staff.
LOGIC: Like with wands and other spell trigger items, you don't need to pay for the material component, because it was already paid for during the staff's creation. This is all fine and well for things like wands, but with rechargeable staves, you can keep them going forever (albeit, only once per day--less often if you're a cheap bastard).
Put this in the hands of a level 20 arcane sorceror. Now your GM hates you.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Are staves not like potions, scrolls, and wands in that the very idea of them is that they aren't typically found in the rules? Spell based items are an entirely different matter, however.
You may be alone with that line of thinking. You can't make an item without DM approval and the DM (not the player) sets the price.
Are staves not like potions, scrolls, and wands in that the very idea of them is that they aren't typically found in the rules? Spell based items are an entirely different matter, however.You may be alone with that line of thinking. You can't make an item without DM approval and the DM (not the player) sets the price.
I suppose I can understand that being the case with staves, but surely GMs generally allow their players to craft potions, scrolls, and wands without much fuss, right?
The idea of a GM not allowing those items to be crafted without express approval for each one makes me think said GM is more than a little pretentious.
After all, the formulas for those items are set in stone and the items themselves never vary. There's no GM adjudication to be had. Short of house ruling item creation out of the game altogether, a player should be able to make those items provided their character has the resources and time to do so.
I as a PC find a staff in a chest full of loot. Somewhere, some NPC long ago made that staff. Now why would he craft stuff into that staff he wasn't going to use regularly, and why would he be honor bound to stick to a "theme" or whatever?
I recently issued a Staff of Weather as loot in my game. The Staff was a stick that had been woven into the nest of a Thunderbird, and had gathered magic through basically "osmosis" from the magical beast, and became imbued with magic. Yes, great staff, great reason why it's got all Weatherey stuff in it.
But if NPCs are bound to only crafting staves within themes useful to them, then the random charts need to be 30% Staff of Evoc, 30% Staff of Power, 30% Staff of healing, and 10% The Rest. And PCs would probably never take the feat at all, because there's very little you can do with it besides craft your Staff of Evoc you could have bought at the store.
What would be ideal, if staves are presumed to have this sort of theming as an unspoken unwritten prerequisite, is for that prerequisite to be written down somewhere, and rules to be cast for it. And truth be told, if someone wrote such rules down in a supplement, along with truly ironing out and clarifying and rewriting and spackling together all the other rules, that supplement would sell like hotcakes.
Are staves not like potions, scrolls, and wands in that the very idea of them is that they aren't typically found in the rules? Spell based items are an entirely different matter, however.You may be alone with that line of thinking. You can't make an item without DM approval and the DM (not the player) sets the price.I suppose I can understand that being the case with staves, but surely GMs generally allow their players to craft potions, scrolls, and wands without much fuss, right?
The idea of a GM not allowing those items to be crafted without express approval for each one makes me think said GM is more than a little pretentious.
After all, the formulas for those items are set in stone and the items themselves never vary. There's no GM adjudication to be had. Short of house ruling item creation out of the game altogether, a player should be able to make those items provided their character has the resources and time to do so.
Not if a loophole can be used to abuse the item. Nothing that is player created(as in a custom item) should have auto-approval. Your example proves that. I am not thinking that every player will game the system, but every DM knows his group and it up to that DM to determine how much monitoring to do when players go shopping or make things.
I do think a player should be able to make items given the time and resources, but that is not a blank check to make what you want. No item belongs in the game until it is approved.
Though I don't believe there is (or should be) a rule that states staves must have themes, I nevertheless always endeavor to have a theme in my custom staves. It just makes my character that much cooler.
I would also never create a staff with a single spell. That would be a waste. Staves are supposed to make you versatile!
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Themes:
Staff of the Cautious Explorer - feather fall, detect snares and pits, knock
Staff of the Absent-Minded Wizard - mind buffs, mind blank, locate object
Staff of the Cunning Linguist - detect, read, tongues, share language
Staff of Endless Repast - create food and water, heroes feast, purify
Staff of Endless Adventure - Magic Missile, Fireball, Fly, Invis, Dispel
Staff of Endless Argument - Simulacrum, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Phantom Terrain
Campers Staff - Mage Mansion, Create Food, Endure Elements, Move Earth
Staff of Greater Deific Annoyance - Scry, Passwall, Speak With Dead, Teleport
Themes are very versatile things...
Themes:
Staff of the Cautious Explorer - feather fall, detect snares and pits, knock
Staff of the Absent-Minded Wizard - mind buffs, mind blank, locate object
Staff of the Cunning Linguist - detect, read, tongues, share language
Staff of Endless Repast - create food and water, heroes feast, purify
Staff of Endless Adventure - Magic Missile, Fireball, Fly, Invis, Dispel
Staff of Endless Argument - Simulacrum, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Phantom Terrain
Campers Staff - Mage Mansion, Create Food, Endure Elements, Move Earth
Staff of Greater Deific Annoyance - Scry, Passwall, Speak With Dead, TeleportThemes are very versatile things...
They really are...
Staff of the Eclecticist - Any mish mash of weird spells you may want.
I vote we start a competition. Post ANY list of spells you want in a staff (5 or less please) and we will give it a theme based on the chosen spells. The person who can trick us up wins.
I vote we start a competition. Post ANY list of spells you want in a staff (5 or less please) and we will give it a theme based on the chosen spells. The person who can trick us up wins.
Ok, first shot:
Spells in staff:
- Read magic
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Heck, you might save your party thousands of gold in resurrection costs just for having such a trump card each day.
Like a staff of life. Casts raise dead, but is charged with heal.
I'm with Abraham Spalding on this one. By the time you've used this staff 50 times to start 'getting ahead', you are probably at a level where that's perfectly ok.
The material component of a spell doesn't get reduced in price for using more charges in any reading of the rules of which I'm aware.
Even moreso with wish. At the level where you have over a million gp to provide for it, a wish every 10 days and 1 less 9th level spell a day is going to seem like a handicap and waste of cash rather than boon.
Staff of the Eclecticist - Any mish mash of weird spells you may want.I vote we start a competition. Post ANY list of spells you want in a staff (5 or less please) and we will give it a theme based on the chosen spells. The person who can trick us up wins.
Sweet.
Bouncing Baleful Polymorph
Dispel Magic Greater
Wall of Stone
I was considering calling it the "staff of obvious things for druids to have in staves" but it really doesn't pop. I could use some creative input on the name.
Then there's the "greater staff of more powerful obvious things for druids to have in staves:"
Bouncing Baleful Polymorph
Dispel Magic Greater
Wall of Stone
Heal
Empowered Firestorm
Reverse Gravity
Earthquake
I mean I guess technically you could make the "Staff of Nature's Wrath" and just throw anything in the Druid list into it, since the Druid list is so narrow anyway.
its been my experience that there is a lot you "can" do with magic, but the cost/benefit ratio doesnt always work out. If you want to spend ridiculous amounts of money for a very minor benefit I say go for it.
I learned this when trying to make a flying rowboat at a relatively low level.
I'm with Abraham Spalding on this one. By the time you've used this staff 50 times to start 'getting ahead', you are probably at a level where that's perfectly ok.
The material component of a spell doesn't get reduced in price for using more charges in any reading of the rules of which I'm aware.
Even moreso with wish. At the level where you have over a million gp to provide for it, a wish every 10 days and 1 less 9th level spell a day is going to seem like a handicap and waste of cash rather than boon.
Right here Kain
"The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends)."
Like I said, I'd ignore that bolded portion though.