(Almost) Never Played D&D 3+; Just Got Pathfinder Core Rulebook


Advice

Liberty's Edge

I've wanted to get the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for quite some time, but couldn't manage the $50 price tag. Then, yesterday, Borders had a going out of business sale and had it for 40% off, so I picked it up.

I'm 30 years old. I barely got started in the OD&D days during the switch to 2nd Edition. I played (DM'ed) a lot of 2nd Edition until I found GURPS Third Edition Revised. We started playing that about half way through high school and never quit until we got to the age where guys tend to quit playing.

The weekend when D&D 3e came out, when the stores could show it off and test it out but weren't suppose to sell it, I played a few sessions. It was okay, but I found that I liked the way GURPS did things a lot more than the "pencil-and-paper video game" systems.

When GURPS Fourth Edition came out, we got into that pretty heavy as often as adults can find time to role play. We've been off and on with it for years now.

I still like GURPS Fourth Edition best and will continue to I'm sure, but I really, really like the way Pathfinder looks and would like to do some old-school type dungeon delving with classes and experience points and level raising and all that jazz (though we'll still remain heavy on the in-character role playing and problem solving).

When I played AD&D 2nd Ed., I primarily used the the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's guide and the Monstrous Manual. Since this was well before the Internet, I didn't know about the Tome of Magic, or I would probably had that too. We didn't use any campagin setting because I made all that up as I went and drew maps with colored pencil on typewriter paper (my mom had a, gasp, "word processor").

In edition to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (OGL) that I have, these are the books that, to my uneducated and ignorant eye, seem pretty vital:

* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary (OGL)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: GameMastery Guide (OGL)

As for the campaign setting, which I am interested in using, I think these products look the most appealing:

* Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Poster Map Folio
* Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide (PFRPG) Hardcover

With the core book, would those four products be a good start to playing Pathfinder? Are there better choices for a guy wanting to get started? All of it looks cool, but I can't drop several $100 for a couple months of four-hour sessions. ;)

All helpful suggestions and comments are appreciated! Thanks! :)

Liberty's Edge

Short version, may come back for full version later.

That said if you can stand PDFs purchase the Bestiary, ISWG, and if you want to get a little funky the GMG. Much less expensive overall, and a computer can be a great aid to gaming if the DM is the *only* one with a computer (laptop/tablet only, desktops are too klunky and phones too small).

I know several people who while they have access to the PDF version still buy the physical version, and that's a good deal when you've got a few people around the table that need to look up stuff while leveling/during downtime/their character's missing/etc...


The Advanced Players Guide is more essential than the GameMastery Guide. It has new classes, archtypes(variations of core classes), a ton of feats and spells, magic items, options for races, prestige classes, character traits(option to flesh out character backround with a couple bonuses), and a few other things. GameMastery Guide is nice to have for advice, pre made NPCs, world building, charts, etc. but if your on a tight budget the APG is probley the single most useful supplement ever created for any D&D or d20 book for character expansion.


Bestiary: Yes, quite vital, as that's the primary monster book. Unless you want to stick to NPC-type enemies, or use the PRD for monsters (I prefer to have actual monster books even though I can look up their stats on-line)

Gamemastery Guide: Not essential. The Core Rulebook has most of the basic information for Gamemasters in addition to the stuff for players. The Gamemastery Guide is more a DMG2 than a DMG, since the Core Rulebook is more or less PHB+DMG.

Inner Sea Poster Map Folio: I'd call that optional, too. If you get the Inner Sea World Guide, you already get a map. The map from the Folio is the same, only 4 times as big (the ISWG version is 8 panels while the ISPMF version is 4 x 8 panels)

Inner Sea World Guide: Not essential, but highly recommended if you want to play in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. You don't have to, you can come up with your own world with its own gods and nations and organisations and all that. However, the Pathfinder Setting really is great and the World Guide is a great campaign setting kind of book.

Liberty's Edge

The GameMastery Guide has some great stuff in it, but is more important if you've never GM'd before. If you're experienced in running games (regardless of the system used) I'd put it much lower on the list. The best thing it's got in it (for experienced GMs) is a huge section with pre-statted NPCs of just about every role imaginable. Great resource.

If you're going to be the one running the game, the Bestiary is a must. Otherwise don't bother.

I'll echo the other comments about the APG - while not "essential" to enjoy or play the game, there's so much new content in there that it's one of the best values Paizo has to offer.

Again, if you're the one running the show, you may also want to look at grabbing the first book to one of the Adventure Paths. They're really Paizo's bread and butter and are the reason I first fell in love with the company. They make running a campaign so much easier for the GM and richer for the players.

If you decide to go with the adventure paths for your games, then you might want to pick up the Inner Sea World Guide, which fleshes out the world in which they take place and gives you much more background to work with.

Hope that helps!

Sovereign Court

My story is very similar to yours. I too spend most of my D&D days in 2e AD&D...and had many hours of fun. I also moved on to play old Runequest and GURPS. I missed most of the 3e days, and after a decades hiatus, I returned to check out D&D with 4e. I played it a few times and had a great time, but it felt different from the D&D days that I once knew. I checked out Pathfinder, convinced myself to buy the core book...and fell in love!

I currently own all of the hardback books...and enjoy them all. But I have to say that, to get started, you would be fine with just the Core Rules and one Bestiary book. The Advanced Players Guide has great classes and extra stuff in it as well. But, at a bare minimum, you need the Core Rules and at least one of the Bestiary books to get going. I am currently waiting for my Campaign Setting book to arrive in the mail...can't wait!

Now...if I could only find a group to play with...

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the replies, support, comments and advice!

As for answers to questions:

* I will be the only DM as always, and no one I'll be playing with will have any D&D 3+ experience either. Other than some questions and light perusing of these forums, we'll be playing in a vacuum.

* I do want to use the campaign setting.

* I do want hard covers, though I like PDF's a lot too.

So, the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide (PFRPG) Hardcover is the "main" campaign setting book, then? Good. That's what I'll consider the most then. I love the look of the city supplements too; we play a lot in cities. Of course, they all look great, though!

I figured the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player's Guide (OGL) was pretty essential for those who are really into the game, but we'll probably not get past, what, level 10 or so in a couple months of once a week, four- or five-hour sessions? Even that?

Make sure to get it anyway?

It looks like Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary (OGL) and Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide (PFRPG) Hardcover are my next two purchases then.

Thanks again! :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

First off: Welcome to Pathfinder! :-)

As for the bare essentials for running a game set in our campaign setting of Golarion, the only "essentials" would probably be:

Core Rulebook
Bestiary
Inner Sea World Guide

I'd actually probably rank Bestiary 2 higher than the Advanced Player's Guide as "essential" spot #4. If you're planning on running a lot of our published adventures, especially the newer ones, then Bestiary 2 is absolutely the 4th place essential book, with Advanced Player's Guide coming in at #5.

GameMastery Guide is handy, but not really essential. The more experience you have at being a GM, the less essential the GameMastery Guide is... but I like to think there's a lot of handy stuff in there even for the most experienced GMs. I know I get a heck of a lot of use out of it in games I run.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks a lot, James! I certainly do plan on using your published adventures! :)

This is where being a part of the mainstream is great. GURPS is all about hard rules and has no "fluff" like the incredibly rich "adventure paths" you offer, for just one example. If SJ Games followed Paizo's business model, you'd have competition from them. But, they just don't have anything like Pathfinder and other D&D-based settings offer.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Contrary to a couple pieces of advice above, I am going to come in and say my 2 cents: DON'T get the Advanced Player's Guide... yet.

If you are really new to the system, you particularly need to pay attention to the "ADVANCED" part of the title of the book---the APG is an excellent supplement, but is lots and lots of extra complex rules to learn. I love it but I see it as overwhelmingly full of material, and I am experienced 3.x and Pathfinder player/GM. And while it's full of many fascinating rules, not a single one of them are necessary for play.

My advice (of course to take or leave, like all advice) is to focus on learning and playing with the core rules first, and then when you're comfortable with that, pick up the APG (the APG rules are also included in the free PRD if you want to take a glance at them anyway).

Speaking as a GM, if you are a GM, I agree with Mr. Jacobs that the Bestiary II should be a priority over the APG--more monsters are good, and it helps vary up challenges tremendously. And the GMG as noted is NOT necessary but the treasure generation tables and the NPC galleries can be extremely useful in particular, IMO (worth at least the $10 .pdf if not the hardcover). If you're a player, all you need is the core rules and you're good to go (maybe Bestiary only if you need stats for animal companions/familiars/summoned creatures).


While I think the Inner Sea World Guide is excellent and that you should get it, if budgetary issues arise I'd actually feel fine postponing that and picking up one of the APs. You're not really going to suffer if you run an AP without the context of the whole world - each one contains all the background info and source material you need, in my view.

I'd prioritise as follows:

Core Rulebook
Whichever AP you plan on running
Bestiary One and Two
Inner Sea World Guide
...
Etcetera

Of course if money isn't an issue then the world guide, Player's guide and Gamemaster's guide are all fantastic too, imo. Depending on what else you plan to do with the setting, some of the sourcebooks would bound to be of value - it's hard to find someone who doesn't like City of Strangers (for example).

Liberty's Edge

Hmmm... That's an interesting proposal. Wouldn't I need the Bestiary to run the monsters in the AP?

I've been looking at the Council of Thieves AP. It seems to be the most popular and have the largest support.

If I bought The Bastards of Erebus (1 of 6), I'd be able to run it just fine with only the core rulebook?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Stripe wrote:

Hmmm... That's an interesting proposal. Wouldn't I need the Bestiary to run the monsters in the AP?

I've been looking at the Council of Thieves AP. It seems to be the most popular and have the largest support.

If I bought The Bastards of Erebus (1 of 6), I'd be able to run it just fine with only the core rulebook?

You're right, you do need the Bestiary to run an AP, but you can get away with just a PDF or a laptop/netbook/tablet with net access to the PRD for the monster stats.

What makes you think Council of Thieves is the most popular? If anything I think it's one of the least successful APs. Kingmaker is probably #1, at least in terms of the Pathfinder rules ones. (Rise of the Rune Lords has been out longer so more support material has been developed for it, but it was written in the weird transition period when D&D 3.5 was ending, but before Pathfinder RPG came out, so it takes some conversion work.) Plus Kingmaker is more of the sandbox-y, loose general ideas but no hardset, direct sequence of events style of adventures that were more popular in the 1e days.

Liberty's Edge

Kvantum wrote:
Stripe wrote:

Hmmm... That's an interesting proposal. Wouldn't I need the Bestiary to run the monsters in the AP?

I've been looking at the Council of Thieves AP. It seems to be the most popular and have the largest support.

If I bought The Bastards of Erebus (1 of 6), I'd be able to run it just fine with only the core rulebook?

You're right, you do need the Bestiary to run an AP, but you can get away with just a PDF or a laptop/netbook/tablet with net access to the PRD for the monster stats.

What makes you think Council of Thieves is the most popular? If anything I think it's one of the least successful APs. Kingmaker is probably #1, at least in terms of the Pathfinder rules ones. (Rise of the Rune Lords has been out longer so more support material has been developed for it, but it was written in the weird transition period when D&D 3.5 was ending, but before Pathfinder RPG came out, so it takes some conversion work.) Plus Kingmaker is more of the sandbox-y, loose general ideas but no hardset, direct sequence of events style of adventures that were more popular in the 1e days.

I dunno; it just kinda seemed that way looking through everything.

So, Kingmaker is the flagship AP, if there is one? It sounds really fun.

I didn't know what "PRD" stood for so I Googled it and found a link to Paizo's Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document. I think I'll go ahead and get the Bestiary and Inner Sea World Guide before selecting an AP.

Liberty's Edge

Of the three APs published using the PFRPG rules so far, I think that Council of Thieves might be the easiest for a group who are new to the rules to run and play. It is also very self contained and doesn’t really draw on any material from the APG or Bestiary 2 (as they were not published at the time) and you could very much get away without owning the Inner Sea campaign book (the whole campaign being set in or very close to the one city).

Of the three I think Kingmaker is the most exciting. But it does contain a lot of additional rules subsets to do with large scale exploration, town building, kingdom administration, mass combat etc. I have seen some posts indicating that some groups are struggling with the free-form nature of the campaign. It also looks like it would take a lot longer to play through from start to finish than Council of Thieves.

In my opinion, based on the information available so far, the new Carrion Crown adventure path is going to be very, very good ...

Liberty's Edge

Carrion Crown is new? It looked the most appealing to me when I first browsed them. But, for some reason, it seemed as though Council of Thieves was the one people are playing most and had the most tie-ins with supplements and other products. We play a lot of urban games and Council of Thieves would fit in well with my group. But, I've ran games like Kingmaker in GURPS before and they went well. I like sandbox games better than railroad plots.

I dunno. I'll figure it out after I get Bestiary and the Inner Sea World Guide, which will take time to build up the funds to buy. These books are freaking expensive! But, they are fantastic, beautiful pieces of art well worth the price, it seems. Hope they hold up well to table-top abuse. I'm confidently betting they will; my core rulebook looks and feels like a tank!

I'm trying to self-teach myself the system right now and made it through the Combat section. It's clear as mud, but after a couple more readings I'll be at the "intelligent questions" stage, which is better than the "overwhelmed" stage I'm in at the moment. ;)

Might look for someone to run a Skype or other real-time Internet session for me and teach me the basics.


Stripe wrote:


The weekend when D&D 3e came out, when the stores could show it off and test it out but weren't suppose to sell it, I played a few sessions. It was okay, but I found that I liked the way GURPS did things a lot more than the "pencil-and-paper video game" systems.

??? I've never heard 3.x described as being similar to a video game. That was what, 2000? What video game could it possibly have been compared to then? Diablo? Actually, they did a Diablo II tie-in if I remember, but we were still in the stages of recognizing how much video games borrowed from tabletop. Nobody was accusing tabletop of emulating video games yet.

What I did yell about way back then, was that 3.x with its rule for every last thing, was a wrongheaded nod to the rules lawyers who reveled in ruining every session, giving them pretty much free reign to act as terribly as they wanted to (a claim I stand by even though I grew to love the system and love Pathfinder even more). Sort of the opposite of a "pencil-and-paper video game." I dare somebody to name the game system that could run back then bogged down by that much software.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just sayin'. We all get our eras crossed once in awhile, I guess.

Grand Lodge

Stripe wrote:
Carrion Crown is new? It looked the most appealing to me when I first browsed them.

I think that you may be confusing Carrion Crown with one of the earlier Adventure Paths (either Curse of the Crimson Throne or Legacy of Fire (with Carrion King)?). Carrion Crown just started, and only the first volume has been released.

Grand Lodge

Scribbling Rambler wrote:
I think that you may be confusing Carrion Crown with one of the earlier Adventure Paths (either Curse of the Crimson Throne or Legacy of Fire (with Carrion King)?). Carrion Crown just started, and only the first volume has been released.

But they can be "browsed" non-the-less... See Here

Liberty's Edge

The first volume in the Carrion Crown adventure path was released this month.

I think Council of Thieves is a pretty solid adventure path, and a good urban campaign. It just didn’t excite me quite as much as some of the others have. Part of this is probably because I am GMing or playing in two other somewhat urban campaigns currently (Shackled City and Curse of the Crimson Throne), and part of it is because the faux Italian feel to a lot of the names in the path don’t gel with the impression I had formed of Cheliax, and it kind of turned me off. That’s probably just me.

Combat is fairly intuitive once you’ve played a few sessions. It might be worth rolling up some characters (or using pre-gens) and staging a few mock combats to get your head around the rules. Another idea might be to read one of the play by post games on these boards (using the PFRPG rules) where you can kind of follow a blow by blow demonstration of combat.


Bruunwald wrote:
??? I've never heard 3.x described as being similar to a video game. That was what, 2000? What video game could it possibly have been compared to then? Diablo?

Although I didn't compare it to some specific game, I had the exact same feeling when I tried 3.5 (I hadn't played D&D since the mid eighties, just before 2nd edition - then came back to it just after 4th edition was released).

The focus on miniatures and hardcore calculation behind just about everything was what made it reminiscent of an attempt to replicate a computer game experience, to me. (Not that I didn't enjoy it).


DeathQuaker wrote:

Contrary to a couple pieces of advice above, I am going to come in and say my 2 cents: DON'T get the Advanced Player's Guide... yet.

+1. Paizo is nothing if not honest. "Advanced" in this case doesn't mean, "stuff we couldn't fit into the first book." It really does add a new level of complexity to the game.

Shadow Lodge

Here's how I would rank the books in order of importance to running a game (in Golarion):

1. Core Rules (tie)
1. Bestiary (tie)
3. Whatever AP/module you want to run (assuming you want to use pre-published)
4. Bestiary 2
5. Inner Sea Guide (assuming you use Golarion)
6. Advanced Player's Guide
7. GameMastery Guide

But really, you can get by with just the Core Rules and Bestiary. Which only cost $9.99 as PDFs.

EDIT: The fact that you never really played 3.X can actually be seen as good. Pathfinder has a lot of little differences from 3.5, which means that people who did play that version for several years often find themselves playing using what they know instead of what the Pathfinder book actually says.


I haven't read it all, so maybe this has come up before, but I'll say it nonetheless:

The "Advanced" in Advanced Player's Guide isn't really meant as "advanced in levels". It's more that the stuff is for players (and GMs) who want some more advanced concepts.

The book does contain stuff that is useful for all levels. Main parts are 6 new base classes (i.e. those classes you can start out with and that go all the way to level 20) and modifications to the core races and classes. Races get to switch some racial traits for different ones (for example, elves can trade in elven magic for silent stalker), and the class modifications (called Archetypes) modify the 11 core classes from the core rules. Example, a Scout Rogue trades in his uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge and instead gets the ability to sneak attack when he's charging and later whenever he moves 10 feet or more in a round.

Then there's feats, spells, PrCs, and so on.

Those 6 new base classes are more focused than the 11 core classes and can be a bit more difficult in playing.

When you're new to the game/system, you'll get by just fine with the core rules and the stuff you'll find in there. If you want more variety, you can always get the APG for the second campaign or something.

Liberty's Edge

Digitalelf wrote:
Scribbling Rambler wrote:
I think that you may be confusing Carrion Crown with one of the earlier Adventure Paths (either Curse of the Crimson Throne or Legacy of Fire (with Carrion King)?). Carrion Crown just started, and only the first volume has been released.
But they can be "browsed" non-the-less... See Here

Ah. I see that all but the first are only available as pre-orders. I thought you could download them all.

It looks like a great campaign in the works.

/All/ this stuff looks delicious.

Mothman wrote:

Combat is fairly intuitive once you’ve played a few sessions. It might be worth rolling up some characters (or using pre-gens) and staging a few mock combats to get your head around the rules. Another idea might be to read one of the play by post games on these boards (using the PFRPG rules) where you can kind of follow a blow by blow demonstration of combat.

Oh, definitely. Once I get to that level, I'm sure I will. There's also RPoL.net and Myth-Weavers.com for some play-by-post goodness. I'm sure someone would love to help me out there. :)

Mynameisjake wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

Contrary to a couple pieces of advice above, I am going to come in and say my 2 cents: DON'T get the Advanced Player's Guide... yet.

+1. Paizo is nothing if not honest. "Advanced" in this case doesn't mean, "stuff we couldn't fit into the first book." It really does add a new level of complexity to the game.

Yeah, I get that. There's no way I should get the APG yet. Going from overwhelmed to "Oh, now a lot of stuff is different or expanded, and there's a whole lot more stuff too" would be a bad thing. :)

Thanks, everyone, for all the help!

Liberty's Edge

Picked up Bestiary today at my local hobby shop. Haven't even perused it yet, though I did browse a number of Pathfinder products and must say they look awesome!

Also, I ordered the first Council of Thieves and am looking forward to its arrival.

I'll let you all know how it goes if I enter a game. :)

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