AlanM |
So, one of my PCs kinda made a bit of a... stupid mistake which resulted in her subsequent arrest, and once they get out of their current bind (Carnival of Tears is fun to run in Kingmaker) she is going to be put on trial for 1 count of 1st-degree murder, 2 counts of 3rd-degree murder and 3 counts of attempted murder. So I was wondering if there were any rules out there involving courtroom trials and the like for either Pathfinder or 3.5?
MendedWall12 |
So, one of my PCs kinda made a bit of a... stupid mistake which resulted in her subsequent arrest, and once they get out of their current bind (Carnival of Tears is fun to run in Kingmaker) she is going to be put on trial for 1 count of 1st-degree murder, 2 counts of 3rd-degree murder and 3 counts of attempted murder. So I was wondering if there were any rules out there involving courtroom trials and the like for either Pathfinder or 3.5?
Meaning you're quite literally going to roleplay through the courtroom drama? Does that mean you are GMing all of the important people? I.e. Judge, jury, both attorneys, any witnesses outside of the PCs? If so that sounds like a nightmare, not only for you but maybe for the PCs, since they will be a doing a lot of sitting and watching you play a bunch of different characters, except when it's their turn on the stand I suppose... Can you provide a bit more clarification?
Mr. Damage |
The judicial system of justice you are describing is a product of the 19th century and would be like using lasers and computers in your game. You would have a feudal lord or magistrate who would basically hear the charges behind closed doors, then either a combination show trial/public corporal punishment or just straight to punishment.
A good example would be the pontious pilate trial of Christ to give you some pointers. Even the Salem witch trials would be too advanced form of judical system for the D&D world. Also, you might look to Trojan, Spartan, Mongol, Goth, Egyptian and Roman forms of justice.
MendedWall12 |
The judicial system of justice you are describing is a product of the 19th century and would be like using lasers and computers in your game. You would have a feudal lord or magistrate who would basically hear the charges behind closed doors, then either a combination show trial/public corporal punishment or just straight to punishment.
A good example would be the pontious pilate trial of Christ to give you some pointers. Even the Salem witch trials would be too advanced form of judical system for the D&D world. Also, you might look to Trojan, Spartan, Mongol, Goth, Egyptian and Roman forms of justice.
I partially agree, but partially not. I understand that historically this is accurate, but as Voska pointed out, there's nothing limiting this game to historical accuracy. In fact to do so would be a bit ludicrous considering all the other things that are not historically accurate. I believe, though I don't have any at my fingertips, that there are intimations in various campaign setting books to some of the "kingdoms" having somewhat organized systems of justice. I certainly wouldn't try and create a justice system that mirrors any modern day democratic system, but even during medieval times there were sheriffs, and such. There are certainly various valid ways to create a legitimate court within the system.
My problem, again depending on how the OP plans to do it, is that much of that type of situation forces the GM to play multiple NPCs at once, and that can get hella boring for a group of antsy PCs.
David Schwartz Contributor |
Meaning you're quite literally going to roleplay through the courtroom drama? Does that mean you are GMing all of the important people? I.e. Judge, jury, both attorneys, any witnesses outside of the PCs? If so that sounds like a nightmare, not only for you but maybe for the PCs, since they will be a doing a lot of sitting and watching you play a bunch of different characters, except when it's their turn on the stand I suppose... Can you provide a bit more clarification?
I did just that in a Planescape game and it was one of the best sessions I ever ran.
A few pointers:
If you're using the trial to punish the player, don't do it. Show her that actions have consequences, but don't hand her character an (effective) death sentence.
This is an adventure. It may be skill-based rather than combat, but it's still a story with challenges.
Make it a kangaroo court, it's just more fun that way.
Charge the other PCs as co-conspirators, so they have a reason to be involved. Alternatively, have the other players play court officials (but not the judge, that's your job).
Make the PCs defend themselves. If they have a lawyer, he's incompetent; if they want to win the case, they'll have to take it into their own hands.
You'll likely have a lot of characters: have a prop for each (a picture, hat, signature object, etc.). Hold the appropriate prop when talking, so the players know who's speaking.
Give the appearance that the PC actions are swaying the court (one way or the other), but the end result should be this: Guilty, but with extenuating circumstances. The sentence: We'll let you go free, IF you perform this task for us. Thus this odd sorts of adventure easily leads into a conventional sort of adventure.
Tarantula |
Do they have a wizard? Does that wizard have dimension door? "Prison" is pretty pathetic with magic involved. If its the fighter, he can probably punch his way out of the cell. Unless someone is lawful in the party, shouldn't be too big of an issue. Alternately, give the "injured" parties some piles of gold to buy their forgiveness. I think PCs are kind of like celebrities, and tend to buy/save(do favors) their way out of any troubles with the law.
Loztastic |
Work on a magistrate-type system, ie, someone who is both judge and jury. then, have the PC either represent him/herself, or a high charisma character act as advocate (time for the bard to shine)
you then either NPC the prosecutor, or if you want real fun, have a player who can be trusted to do it seriously and will get into the role, guest NPC the prosecutor.
if you want to bring dice into the case, have each advocate "attack" using various "social" skills, with a DC based on the counter-arguments of the other side, ie, opposed social-skill rolls, assign bonusses and penaltyies for fun arguments and cunning legal tricks.
also bring magic into it - it's likley the "judge" would be a cleric of a justice-type god, a bard, a wizard with skill at divination, or a paladin
similarly, both the trial and the punishment are likley to involve magic in some way. detect lies, mind-reading, even speak with the dead (picture a ghost giving evidence at their own trial) and the like. with cells in anti-magic fields to imprison wizards, or magically re-inforced for super-strong characters
then, punishments, in the tech level we are discussing are likley to be, even for murder not custody. execution could be an option (bad for a PC). a wiergild is likeley (ie, you pay a significant sum of money to the victims family) or how about a Gesa to do some service for them and the state - some noble quest. and also pay for the rezzing of the victims. remmber, murder is likley to be seen differently when premature death is only a temportary problem
Kain Darkwind |
This happened in my game as well. I assigned the other PCs the roles of defense and witnesses, but ultimately no one really gave it much effort and it was just a huge drag. Here's a link to the log of the session if anyone is interested in reading it. PCs are Kiera, Kyle, Einar and Buxtu, the rest are NPCs.
I had it go on a Diplomacy check modified by the evidence they brought up. She was clearly guilty of the action but through ignorance rather than malice, so it wasn't very easy to defend her. Also, the player had spent the character's entire existence being a pain in the ass annoyance, so the DM (myself) wasn't too happy with the situation either. It is bad to DM while angry.
F. Wesley Schneider Contributor |
So it doesn't sound like it will work great for the specifics of the situation you're in, but we just had to ask ourselves a similar question: How do you make a courtroom drama a PF adventure?
If you can hold out for a few weeks, you might find some useful ideas in Pathfinder #44: Trial of the Beast.
Geistlinger |
You could pick up a copy of Crime and Punishment. It's for 3.5, but should still have some usable advice.
MendedWall12 |
You could pick up a copy of Crime and Punishment. It's for 3.5, but should still have some usable advice.
Interesting that the PDF is more expensive than the hardcover...
Dreaming Psion |
Geistlinger wrote:You could pick up a copy of Crime and Punishment. It's for 3.5, but should still have some usable advice.Interesting that the PDF is more expensive than the hardcover...
To go with Crime and Punishment, there is also Dynasties and Demagogues by the same company, lots of political stuff in there, and a neat (if a bit overly complicated) system for debates/political combat that might be used for a trial. The Maze of Bureaucracy is a fun touch too, makes for a neat "trap".
Sizik |
Do they have a wizard? Does that wizard have dimension door? "Prison" is pretty pathetic with magic involved. If its the fighter, he can probably punch his way out of the cell. Unless someone is lawful in the party, shouldn't be too big of an issue. Alternately, give the "injured" parties some piles of gold to buy their forgiveness. I think PCs are kind of like celebrities, and tend to buy/save(do favors) their way out of any troubles with the law.
Problem with that is, since this is Kingmaker, the government consists primarily of the PCs.
Tarantula |
Problem with that is, since this is Kingmaker, the government consists primarily of the PCs.
In that case, where's the bard/rogue running their PR? Give the people a story "it had to be done" or pay off the family, "It was unavoidable, will this 5,000GP suffice?" and continue on your way.
brassbaboon |
1. leave the room.
2. storm in again (preferrably unexpected)
3. point with a finger towards your intended victim
4. yell (at the top of your lungs) "CONFESS"
I've found the best way to get confessions is with the comfy chair and soft pillows. Well, in theory anyway.... But then again... that usually only works when...
.
.
.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!
AlanM |
Well, for the circumstances:
Yes it is Kingmaker, so the PCs make a sizable portion of the government, but she kinda killed a drunk guy in cold blood, in front of witnesses, with no real provocation other than verbal insults about her weight (in the player's defense, I might have been a bit harsh with my IC/OOC rules. If you don't have your hand on your head, anything you say can, and most likely will, be taken as your character doing or saying what you are saying; a rule like is kinda necessary for my group because otherwise NOTHING gets done. And it can have hilarious consequences during conversations with NPCs.); the 3rd degree murder is for the NPCs that she mind-controlled into acting as bodyguards, and then commanded them to attack the Guard that was trying to arrest her. And the attempted murder was the attempted slaying of the Guardsman (not just with her orders either; full out spellcasting and physically assualting them) and a witness.
And while she is the High Priestess of the nation, it is a LG nation with a LG baron, a NG general, and a LN Warden; just because she is a major player she's not getting off (the other PCs even have said that they would be charging her) without some sort of trial. And even the player of the character has agreed that she probably ought to be charged, as she did break the law several times over.
I was kinda going with the modern door courtroom idea initially, though now I think I am going to either have the player play his defendant (either herself or some sort of advocate), the player of the baron will be the judge (who will also act as the jury), and there will be some sort of prosecutor NPC which I will play, along with any witnesses that may be called upon. I had not thought about using magic that much, so I may look into that to maybe get some more ideas (Kingmaker is the first campaign that I have run that wasn't "go to point A, kill creatures I-X, go to point B, kill creature XI, repeat") for what to do.
Though, she could go for an insanity defense; she definitely has "erratic" behavior at the best of times.
karkon |
It sounds like your players is not meshing with the group dynamics. I think you might be better off not doing a trial. If you let her character off then that "outrageous" behavior becomes ok. If you don't then the typical result in these cases would be to put the character to death. Anything less than death becomes a defacto endorsement of her actions because keeping her confined (mind controlling spell caster) will be exceedingly difficult. Insanity as a defense is a very very modern idea and in a world of magic is actually prejudicial. A manwoman spell caster is bad news for anyone much less a LG/NG nation.
So the questions becomes: What to do with your murderous mind controlling priestess?
Are you really willing to execute her character? If not then there is no real penalty for her character. Imprisonment is an unworkable solution as being able to mind control means she can just walk out of prison. Other more creative penalties might work but you need to have those options worked out before you decide on a trial. If you plan to let her live and continue to work with the rest of the party then you probably don't need to do a trial.
If you plan to execute her and replace her character then you should just handwave that and get it done with.
Iron-Dice |
I ran a trial not very long ago. PC killed a 14 year old local boy(under a spell to attack PC's), while all the other PC rendered their attackers unconscious. There's a bit more too it, but you get the idea. Everyone agreed that it was a bad move and against the party dynamic.
There was a council of twelve that ruled the court.
1 was against the PC's.
1 was a major patron.
The rest were divided between neutral, pro or con.
A dc of 1-10 was guilty. 11-20 not.
I applied a slight modifier to those that were pro or con.
Now, I created a detailed list of everything that PC had done to date that was questionable, plus a list of good deeds. This gave me a list of witnesses for and against.
I let the PC's be the defense. They could question the witneses. I applied a modifier for each item they brought up that helped.
Each council member asked a question. Nature of question depended on his/her pre- disposition.
All this was a lot of Fun for everyone. Sort of a flash back episode vibe.
To conclude. Each elder placed a red or white stone in a bowl. Red for guilty, white for not.
I used a sliding scale. Complete innocence is all white, complete guilt is all red.
I revealed each one at a time, rolling dice and adding modifiers. Good suspense.
The end was two thirds guilty. So the pc helped with the sentence. He ended up being banished under pain of death. Now that PC is an NPC, and can return later as a villain out for revenge, or a reformed hero trying to restore his good name.
The player in question created a new PC that fits the party dynamic better. Lesson learned, and everyone had fun.
Kain Darkwind |
There are other means of dealing with this than execution or allowing her to walk scott free, Karkon.
I fined my player. Can't remember how much, but it was either 100K or 1 million gp. Put a mark of justice on them. Allowed the player to work off the fines by doing grunt work for my game (formatting my logs online, writing up statblocks, etc) and IC by doing quests. But then, my trial was as much dealing with a bad player as it was dealing with a murderous character.
karkon |
There are other means of dealing with this than execution or allowing her to walk scott free, Karkon.
I fined my player. Can't remember how much, but it was either 100K or 1 million gp. Put a mark of justice on them. Allowed the player to work off the fines by doing grunt work for my game (formatting my logs online, writing up statblocks, etc) and IC by doing quests. But then, my trial was as much dealing with a bad player as it was dealing with a murderous character.
Yes there may be other methods: exile, planar exile, soul trapping, slavery, etc, etc, etc...I mentioned more creative solutions in my original post.
My point is that for his game the solutions are effectively limited. The player will either need a new character or she will not. Some solutions are effectively execution as far as the player and the game is concerned and the rest are not. The DM needs to decide beforehand what the options are and plan for the consequences to his game.
If the end result effectively takes the character out of the game then is it really necessary to force the player to play through the trial? If the end result does not take the character out of the game then some consequences must occur or the trial is still a waste of time.
Kain Darkwind |
If the end result effectively takes the character out of the game then is it really necessary to force the player to play through the trial? If the end result does not take the character out of the game then some consequences must occur or the trial is still a waste of time.
Apply that same reasoning to a combat.
If the combat effectively takes the character out of the game, is it really necessary to force the player to play through it? If it does not, then some consequences must occur or the combat is still a waste of time.
Now, for every reason you come up with for why 'combat is different than a trial', apply that same reason to the trial and you will have an effective 'adventure'. I'll give you a few to start.
1. Combat involves all the players - involve all the players in the trial.
2. Combat doesn't have a predetermined outcome, but is influenced by the choices and rolls made by the players - don't have a predetermined outcome, but one influenced by choices and rolls.
3. Combat potentially has rewards to offset its potential consequences - develop obtainable rewards from the trial.
karkon |
karkon wrote:If the end result effectively takes the character out of the game then is it really necessary to force the player to play through the trial? If the end result does not take the character out of the game then some consequences must occur or the trial is still a waste of time.Apply that same reasoning to a combat.
If the combat effectively takes the character out of the game, is it really necessary to force the player to play through it? If it does not, then some consequences must occur or the combat is still a waste of time.
...etc...
If all or most of the characters are on trial then your argument is great. Some of the trial ideas in this thread have been great. In this case only one character is on trial and only one character will suffer the consequences. Sure he can make it a great trial and give XP but is that what is best for his game? I think not. He has a character (and maybe a player) who seems to have gone seriously over the line. Fighting at every point to avoid responsibility for her actions. The character seems to be a cleric and will be hard to punish effectively. if the other players are trying to punish your character is that really the best use of game time?
My point here is that the trial of one character does not really advance the game. If their game time is limited then using that time to do a trial will be a bit of a waste. Then even if they hold the trial the outcomes are to a certain extent limited and that those results will not result in anything useful for the players for the time spent.
My alternate suggestions:
Have a trial held by representatives of her deity. Held in a dreamscape where all the players contribute. The punishment and atonement will be decided upon by her god. This is great for good gods as her atonement can lead to great story hooks and the deity can hold access to her powers as a sanction. This opens up the options in terms of results as a literal deus ex machina can make almost any judgement stick.
Talk to the player directly and see if she will have her character reach the conclusion that she needs to atone for her crimes. She can pay wergeld for those whose deaths she caused and atone with other actions.
Tell the player that her in game actions were unsuitable and that her character will be found guilty and removed as a PC. Let her make a new character, more suitable to the game, and carry on. Let the old PC be a future adventure hook.
Tell the player that her in game actions were unsuitable and that her character must accept a punishment that does not remove her from game.