"Stop stealing my kills!"


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2

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KaeYoss wrote:


There is no "kill assist" score giving him back his crit, there are no team skillshots. He has to be the one to deal the damage that reduces the guy to negative HP.

Actually, adding something like that in has been suggested in this thread.


DeathQuaker wrote:

I agree. It also makes the grit mechanic consistent with other point/use based class ability mechanics--Barbarians don't regenerate Rage, Monks don't regenerate ki, Bards don't regenerate Performance.

Perhaps they are trying new mechanics on this line. See the samurai "regenerating" resolve winning challenge.

Why should this never exist?


Freesword wrote:
Khuldar wrote:
Both the HP and initiative systems are abstractions. Rules like this bring the mechanics to the fore, rather then running in the background

And an arbitrary n times per day is less of an abstraction?

Does tracking an arbitrary number of uses of an ability per day bring the mechanics less to the fore?

How is using one purely artificial construct of the game mechanics any less meta than using another?

That's a fair question. I guess the concept of "I've got X amount of Y for the day" is more core to the system, and seen in pretty much every class. The idea of "doing Z trick to get more Y" is a lot more rare. One is a familiar mechanic, so it bothers me less. Both are arbitrary. Personal preference.

From a complication standpoint, having a set number of uses per day is easier to keep track of. I have some absentminded people in my group. They would never be able to play a gunslinger without the rest of the group prompting them. We also have some munchin powergamers. They would meta the system with every trick they could think of. Now this is not a class from the basic rulebook, so I'll accept a little more complexity. But the way it's set up now prompts people to use metagame knowledge and mechanical tricks to get the most out of the system. That bothers me.

The idea of kill shots detracts from working as a team. The party is working together to accomplish their goals. It should not matter who put in the last hit. OK, maybe if you are sucking the life out of them, but for the rest of the time it shouldn't. If the class is based on personal glory (order of the cockatrice cavaliers come to mind) I could also see it, but that's not the image I have of gunslingers.

Your image may vary.

<shrug>


Kaiyanwang wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

I agree. It also makes the grit mechanic consistent with other point/use based class ability mechanics--Barbarians don't regenerate Rage, Monks don't regenerate ki, Bards don't regenerate Performance.

Perhaps they are trying new mechanics on this line. See the samurai "regenerating" resolve winning challenge.

Why should this never exist?

This. The more gunslinger plays like other classes, the less sense there is in introducing him at all.


Familiarity and personal preference are understandable.

Concerns over adding complication and potential to "game" the system are valid and I actually share them.

Since the gunslinger is thematically weapon focused I don't see as much of a problem with kills as trigger for recharge. It's not ideal and I am open to suggestions such as the intimidate check earlier in the thread.

I even appreciate that position that it detracts from teamwork and have offered up a suggestion to ameliorate this.

I consider per kill recharge no worse than arbitrary per day mechanics, and perhaps slightly better. Per crit is better still since it is a random chance, but only due to the fact that firearms lack a variety of crit ranges (special abilities excluded).


My dislike of recharging grit:
Not just because grit is low, though I feel it is.
Not just the way you recharge it, which is some else I do not like.

I don't like recharging grit because you cannot accurately, or even arbitrarily, gauge it in context as an expenditure of resources. Meaning, you have no idea how spending grit plays out in the long run.

A wizard knows how many spells a day he has. A paladin knows his amount of smites. A barbarian knows rounds of rage. They know how much they get to spend a day because it is a static amount. A gunslinger knows his minimum amount, which also may be his max. But, because of the limited amount and the difficulty to regain grit, he has no idea what its 'worth' will be.

All other classes with limited daily resources can much more easily gauge how it will affect their overall power within the game. A cleric knows that channeling energy results in one less usage. A sorcerer casting knows he gets one less spell of that level. A monk expends ki as he sees fit. But a 'slinger has a severely limited amount of expendable resources. The answer is he is supposed to be able to refill this amount. This isn't a problem in concept, but:

1 - It does not grow in availability as you gain levels. Every other class does.

2 - It is required to activate every class feature. You need to take feats or reach level 20 to use class features for free which are equivalent, at best, to feats. Feats tend to be usable all day long for free or usable as long as circumstances are right.

3 - Regaining grit through critical hits, statistically, is worse than 5% chance, since the hit must be confirmed. That means, on average, a gunslinger gets back 1 grit every 20+ rounds of combat.

4 - Regaining grit through killing blows, mechanically, requires you to do sufficient damage to a creature. Since monsters do not have life bars above their head, it is actually impossible to tell how wounded a creature is w/o meta-gaming or having the GM comment on it's status. This feature also points towards the gunslinger making less-than-optimal attacks. They will pick off stragglers or weaker creatures first, instead of dealing with the deadlier threats, to refill grit. This can lead to situations which turn the 'slinger into a solo player, divorcing him from team tactics.

This all adds up to one fact: you have no idea how much grit you will have, every point is extremely precious. This means the vast majority of grit points will be spent on very few of the deeds. Even if the situational applications of certain deeds does come up, I, personally, would not use them. Period. Because I have no idea if the 1 grit I am using to shoot off a lock is going to be the 1 grit I needed to reload quicker and save my life. I have no idea if I will have opportunity to gain more later.

In other words, a gunslinger has no way to allocate his grit resource.


Thank you for illustrating a point of mine WarColonel.

What you described is pure and unadulterated metagaming. Every one of those resources you mentioned is an artificial construct of the game mechanics.

I do however appreciate that there is a certain appeal to having a predictable resource pool.

I also feel that the limit to the gunslinger's pool size as a balance to offset recharge may be a bit too low.

I feel expanding the recharge mechanic can fix these issues.


Freesword wrote:

Thank you for illustrating a point of mine WarColonel.

What you described is pure and unadulterated metagaming. Every one of those resources you mentioned is an artificial construct of the game mechanics.

I do however appreciate that there is a certain appeal to having a predictable resource pool.

I also feel that the limit to the gunslinger's pool size as a balance to offset recharge may be a bit too low.

I feel expanding the recharge mechanic can fix these issues.

I don't really mind meta-gaming parts of the game. Knowing your HP, AC, or attack bonuses is a part of the meta-game in D&D. There has to be some in the game, otherwise it's just a bunch of geeks yelling random make-believe words at each other. :)

But I find other renewable resources have a meta-game aspect that ties to role-play directly. A sorcerer or wizard in-game has limited magical abilities without resting for fatigue. Out of game they have a limited spells per day. A monk's ki can represent their mental discipline, which is worn down as they fight but, after a good's night rest, their mind is refreshed. A barbarian without rage may still be mad, but they just don't have it in them to channel that anger to it's full potential.

The gunslinger, though, is supposed to be a 'tough'. Hence, grit. What is so tough about finishing off an enemy that has already been beaten? What is 'gritty' about killing a few mooks while your party is beating on the BBEG? Why should you be rewarded for placing extremely accurate shots (critical hits); your job is to shoot, and shoot well at that.

I just don't know how grit as written is going to work for me. Fluff and crunch wise it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


I just wonder, this might have been mentioned in other posts but not to my knowledge. What does a gunslinger do in a major bossfight? If there is only one huge creature and no mini's around, will he then rely on his critical hits and trying to kill himself now and then just to be able to use his class abilities?

And I do understand the breatdown on whining when it comes to kill stealing, but on the other hand this is fueling his class abilities (not that whining is good anyway). When he is denied to use his class abilities because other players use sound tactical moves, you know it's a flaw in the system.

This is the reason I like the ki pool idea instead.

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