Hardness Question


Rules Questions


My party in a recent campaign seems to be in need of the 1000gp of diamond dust material component of the restoration spell quite frequently. So frequently that the party wizard is tired of paying the money changer to get said components.

What is the hardness of Diamonds in the game? Could one fashion a mortar and pestle from adamantine and use that to grind their own diamond dust? What would be the price of such an object? 1,500gp plus base, maybe? (half that of a weapon).

This would be a great help as the party tends to carry wealth in un-typed 100gp gems which the GM has agreed to convert to whatever gem type we choose (including diamond).

Thanks for input!


.

1) A web sit that list Mortar and Pestle's. Look for the Granite ones, as that will be the closest in weight to Stone or Metal.

Is were i got the list below

6" = about 1 cup = Weight 7 pounds
7.5" = about 2 cups = Weight 16 pounds
8" = about 3 cups = Weight 18 pounds
9" = about 5-6 cups = Weight 24 pounds

2) Adamantine (page 154 phb) =Adamantine does not list by pound, but Mithral does. So if a Mithral light armor is 1000 gold, and it list Other items as +500 gold/lb. Then i would assume that Adamatine light armor of 5000 gold, would be listed as Other items at +2,500 gold/lb. (note that this price already include the Masterwork cost in it).

3) Combine 1 and 2 =

6" = holds about 1 cup = Weight 7 pounds = 17,500 gold.
7.5" = holds about 2 cup = Weight 16 pounds = 40,000 gold.
8" = holds about 3 cup = Weight 18 pounds = 45,000 gold.
9" = holds about 5-6 cups = Weight 24 pounds = 60,000 gold.

Lastly, remember you are not really paying for the item in question, but for the Ultra-Rare Metal of Adamantine, which really drives up the price.

.............
Now that being said =

If i was DM'ing this, i would allow a 1/2 cup Adamantine Mortal and Pestle to be bought for 10,000 gold and weight 4 pounds.

Anyway that would be my reasoning.


Hardness of diamond are not listed in the PHB.

The Hardness of Adamantine is listed as 20.

Diamonds are one of the Real Worlds Hardest items.
Adamantine is one of the Fantasy Worlds Hardest items.

If i were to guess = I would place Diamonds Hardness around 18 or 19.

But a Adamantine Mortal and Pestle should be able to ignore any item with a Hardness of 19 or less, that would fit inside it.

...........

A mean DM, might require the person using it to have a Strength of 20+, but i think that is overkill for game physic's, and think anyone with Strength 10+ should be able to use it just fine (fantasy easy :).

...........

Hope this helps


If an adamantine mortar is required, then we could not have diamond dust in our "real" world, as we do not have adamantine.

Jewelers were cutting diamonds long before we had industrial tools. It just comes down to patience and enough force.

I am pretty sure that placing a normal diamond on a normal metal anvil and then going to town on it with a mallet will shatter the diamond.

To contain such a mess, I'd make a kind of piston, or butter churn, with the diamond in the botton and the piston being hammered on with mallets.

The diamond will die.


Diamonds are typically cut and ground using other diamonds. If you tried to grind a diamond with a mortar and pestle, you'd end up grinding your tools away after many hours. If you hit diamonds with mallets, you'd shatter the diamond along it's natural cleavage lines, but you'd be left with diamond shards that would shred your mallets long before they were pulverized.
You'd need to secure the diamond somehow then grind it with another diamond mounted to a rod or something. (That's actually how it's still done sometimes)

However, the simplistic nature of hardness makes such measures unnecessary. To overcome hardness you merely have to deal more damage than the hardness number. Thus, with a high enough strength modifier one could grind diamonds with their face. You could also use your axe and the diamond wouldn't chip or scratch the blade.


Quantum Steve wrote:

Diamonds are typically cut and ground using other diamonds. If you tried to grind a diamond with a mortar and pestle, you'd end up grinding your tools away after many hours. If you hit diamonds with mallets, you'd shatter the diamond along it's natural cleavage lines, but you'd be left with diamond shards that would shred your mallets long before they were pulverized.

You'd need to secure the diamond somehow then grind it with another diamond mounted to a rod or something. (That's actually how it's still done sometimes)

However, the simplistic nature of hardness makes such measures unnecessary. To overcome hardness you merely have to deal more damage than the hardness number. Thus, with a high enough strength modifier one could grind diamonds with their face. You could also use your axe and the diamond wouldn't chip or scratch the blade.

+1 what you said about real world diamonds.

Since Adamantine in the Fantasy world can ignore anything with a Hardness of 20 or less, one should be able to grind diamonds with it, if enough force is applied in a Fantasy world.


Can't you use a +1 weapon? Technically a magic weapon is immune to damage from weapons with a lower enhancement bonus, which might apply here - the diamond couldn't wear away tool since it wasn't a magic +1 diamond. That would be a cheaper option than adamantine. Even casting magic weapon on the tools might work.


bittergeek wrote:
Can't you use a +1 weapon? Technically a magic weapon is immune to damage from weapons with a lower enhancement bonus, which might apply here - the diamond couldn't wear away tool since it wasn't a magic +1 diamond. That would be a cheaper option than adamantine. Even casting magic weapon on the tools might work.

I'm pretty sure that rule isn't in Pathfinder. Magic weapons get bonus hardness and hp, but I didn't see anything about immunity.


The rule is in Pathfinder, specifically under Magic Weapons:

Quote:
Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.

Silver Crusade

How much is that money changer making them pay? The better solution would be for them to go directly to a jeweler who would have diamond dust laying around and sell it for a more reasonable price (maybe exactly 1000gp). Diamond dust is essentially useless except for spells.


AvalonXQ wrote:

The rule is in Pathfinder, specifically under Magic Weapons:

Quote:
Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.

Thank you - I went looking for it before, but I couldn't find it. Am I right in thinking that that means a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon can't even sunder a +1 dagger (barring use of magic fang)?


Bobson wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:

The rule is in Pathfinder, specifically under Magic Weapons:

Quote:
Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
Thank you - I went looking for it before, but I couldn't find it. Am I right in thinking that that means a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon can't even sunder a +1 dagger (barring use of magic fang)?

I believe this would apply to a natural claw attack against the weapon, yes. On the other hand, an unattended +1 dagger would take damage against the Wyrm's breath weapon as normal (assuming it failed its save). So magic weapons won't usually get broken in battle, but it's easy enough to destroy one by other means if you get your hands on it.


1) The important part about the material cost is the cost itself so the characters don´t run around reviving whole cemetries. I see no problem with a houserule that allows other materials of the same price.

2) Creating diamond dust is quite easy. Take a diamond and a stone and smash it. Being hard doesn´t mean being stable - well, the game term "hardness" means it... point is, if you take a diamond and smash it on the floor, it breaks. Surprised a some people who wanted to "test" if the wedding ring the jeweler wanted to sell them bore a real diamond and ended up in destroying a thousand bucks in one blow.

Sovereign Court

Bobson wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:

The rule is in Pathfinder, specifically under Magic Weapons:

Quote:
Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
Thank you - I went looking for it before, but I couldn't find it. Am I right in thinking that that means a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon can't even sunder a +1 dagger (barring use of magic fang)?

Creatures with DR/Magic should count as a +x weapon depending on their CR...

--ShamVrock


Hardness for gemstones in the real world is not comparable to hardness in Pathfinder. Hardness in the real world has to do with what objects can scratch other objects. In Pathfinder it is a resistance to an actual beating.

Diamonds are actually brittle. They can easily be smashed with a hammer. Diamond dust is actually black (it's just carbon). Diamonds can only be scratched by other diamonds. The easiest way to smash a diamond is to put it in a a handkerchief with no holes in it and smash away.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2253940_destroy-a-diamond.html

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