An Open Letter to Paizo: Thank You


Product Discussion

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Jon Brazer Enterprises

hunter1828 wrote:


Thanks for that, Lisa. While our book did release that day, we were, unfortunately, not at GenCon. One of these days we'll get there...

Interested in sharing a boothin 2012? Not looking for an answer now, just something to think about.


Brekkil wrote:

I wasn't going for endearing, I was simply voicing a concern of mine. If that gives me one less customer... well, so be it.

- Axel

Two...

Three...

Four...

Five.

Paizo Employee CEO

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
hunter1828 wrote:


Thanks for that, Lisa. While our book did release that day, we were, unfortunately, not at GenCon. One of these days we'll get there...
Interested in sharing a boothin 2012? Not looking for an answer now, just something to think about.

You should email Jeff Alvarez about that. In the past, we have had a rack for 3 party publishers to see their print products at the booth at the same rates that we use to sell them through paizo.com. Jeff decides what goes into the booth and what doesn't, so he would be the guy to hit up about this.

-Lisa


Lisa Stevens wrote:

You should email Jeff Alvarez about that. In the past, we have had a rack for 3 party publishers to see their print products at the booth at the same rates that we use to sell them through paizo.com. Jeff decides what goes into the booth and what doesn't, so he would be the guy to hit up about this.

-Lisa

Once again proving, they know how to support 3PP. Thanks Lisa!

Jon Brazer Enterprises

LMPjr007 wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

You should email Jeff Alvarez about that. In the past, we have had a rack for 3 party publishers to see their print products at the booth at the same rates that we use to sell them through paizo.com. Jeff decides what goes into the booth and what doesn't, so he would be the guy to hit up about this.

-Lisa

Once again proving, they know how to support 3PP. Thanks Lisa!

What Louis said. Thanks Lisa.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
hunter1828 wrote:


Thanks for that, Lisa. While our book did release that day, we were, unfortunately, not at GenCon. One of these days we'll get there...
Interested in sharing a boothin 2012? Not looking for an answer now, just something to think about.

That is definitely something I will put serious consideration to.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
hunter1828 wrote:


Thanks for that, Lisa. While our book did release that day, we were, unfortunately, not at GenCon. One of these days we'll get there...
Interested in sharing a boothin 2012? Not looking for an answer now, just something to think about.

You should email Jeff Alvarez about that. In the past, we have had a rack for 3 party publishers to see their print products at the booth at the same rates that we use to sell them through paizo.com. Jeff decides what goes into the booth and what doesn't, so he would be the guy to hit up about this.

-Lisa

I know Paizo had some 4WFG books at their booth last year, as several folks sent me photos of them. That made me very happy, and is another reason I'm very happy to be supporting the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and Paizo - because we get supported right back. :D


LMPjr007 wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

You should email Jeff Alvarez about that. In the past, we have had a rack for 3 party publishers to see their print products at the booth at the same rates that we use to sell them through paizo.com. Jeff decides what goes into the booth and what doesn't, so he would be the guy to hit up about this.

-Lisa

Once again proving, they know how to support 3PP. Thanks Lisa!

+1


dmchucky69 wrote:
JollyRoger wrote:
Brekkil wrote:

I wasn't going for endearing, I was simply voicing a concern of mine. If that gives me one less customer... well, so be it.

- Axel

Two

Make that Three. This was a great feel-good thread until your post. Nothing wrong with not feeling the buzz that the other 3rd party companies are feeling; but you are totally missing the point. Paizo doesn't carry itself like a typical corporation PRECISELY because they treat their customers (and 3rd party companies) with respect.

Your post came across as angry, and extremely unprofessional. Why would I want to purchase a product from such a company? Attitude is everything in this day and age where folks have become much more careful about where they spend their hard-earned money. You should think about apologizing rather than defending an unprofessional remark. It might save any more hemorrhaging of potential customers.

Add another to that. You have to promote yourself. I have to admit, I'd never heard of your company until this thread. Whining and griping isn't the way to win customers - making good product and making people aware of it is.


they say there's no such thing as bad publicity. and I kinda have to agree. I am now going to be buying Eldritch Secrets, due to this thread pointing it out.

While many see Axel's comments as rude and in poor taste, i see them differently. I see them as coming from a creator who is passionate about his work, and who desires it to be showcased. Could he have gone about it in a far better manner? Of course, and I am not saying he was right in what he said. BUT, I also see that Headless Hydra has made at least 1 book I want to buy and don't care that Axel said some naughty words.

also this is truly interesting:
Save 3PPs for D&D


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Jon Brazer Enterprises would like to sign this statement and give a whole hearted "Thank You!" to Paizo as well.

I'll add my thanks to those of the other 3PPs. I'm thrilled to be able to produce Pathfinder compatible gaming materials under such a flexible and friendly license agreement. It's a great buzz to produce stuff that other people like and enjoy and I'm pretty sure without Pathfinder this would be much harder to accomplish.


Monkeygod wrote:


also this is truly interesting:
Save 3PPs for D&D

You do realize that was the motivation for Rite Publishing's Open Letter to thank Paizo, right? This very thread is because of that?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Monkeygod wrote:

they say there's no such thing as bad publicity. and I kinda have to agree. I am now going to be buying Eldritch Secrets, due to this thread pointing it out.

While many see Axel's comments as rude and in poor taste, i see them differently. I see them as coming from a creator who is passionate about his work, and who desires it to be showcased. Could he have gone about it in a far better manner? Of course, and I am not saying he was right in what he said. BUT, I also see that Headless Hydra has made at least 1 book I want to buy and don't care that Axel said some naughty words.

also this is truly interesting:
Save 3PPs for D&D

While I see your point, I disagree. Anytime a merchant publicly proclaims that "if he loses a customer, so be it;" that merchant has lost the game. Your customer's are your lifeblood; you can't afford to be seen as petty and immature. What you see as passion, I see as a childish temper-tantrum.

You want to buy his product in spite of his attitude? Good for you. I don't buy anything from anyone who behaves the way this guy did in this thread. I don't care if the guy creates the greatest RPG product in the world. I'm sure Fred Phelps has a few redeeming qualities; I still wouldn't give him the time of day.

Now, if this guy has the wherewithal and maturity to come back to this thread and apologize? I might change my mind and think about buying from him someday. But I'll be very surprised if that happens.


I knew that Paizo/Pathfinder was ascending in popularity and sales. I saw Paizo promoting their 3pp in their newsletter, but I didn't realize just how well they treated their 3pp nor how many of them there were until reading the original thank you open letter and this thread. I am even more impressed than before, and I started out feeling positive towards Paizo!

I also have a confession to make. I've been playing D20 since it came out and when PF was in development I was interested, and when 4E came out I didn't like it (I tried it too btw) and continued playing 3.5E... not PFRPG. Even after my wife bought the core PFRPG rulebook for me for Xmas 2009(!) I still haven't played it! Why didn't I make the switch?

I don't know. I guess it was momentum. I already have a sizeable library of 3.5 books and the 3 PFRPG books I now own are kinda just sitting there unloved. As of now though I am changing things. Just this weekend, I ended a long running 3.5E campaign and I'm taking a break for a while before starting up my next one. Based on the overwhelmingly positive comments I've read from all the 3pps on this thread, and even the "proving their point" offers from Lisa, I have decided to finally switch over to Pathfinder for my next campaign.

I'll be using the time between campaigns to brush up on the differences between 3.5 and PFRPG so that I can run it for my players. It's time to join this party in action instead of just showing interest from the sidelines. Thanks to everyone for showing me that Paizo is truly deserving of my FULL attention as a player of their game. Also, you can be sure that I'll be checking out all of the 3pp via Paizo's master list to see what extra products will suit my game.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Spiralbound wrote:

I knew that Paizo/Pathfinder was ascending in popularity and sales. I saw Paizo promoting their 3pp in their newsletter, but I didn't realize just how well they treated their 3pp nor how many of them there were until reading the original thank you open letter and this thread. I am even more impressed than before, and I started out feeling positive towards Paizo!

I also have a confession to make. I've been playing D20 since it came out and when PF was in development I was interested, and when 4E came out I didn't like it (I tried it too btw) and continued playing 3.5E... not PFRPG. Even after my wife bought the core PFRPG rulebook for me for Xmas 2009(!) I still haven't played it! Why didn't I make the switch?

I don't know. I guess it was momentum. I already have a sizeable library of 3.5 books and the 3 PFRPG books I now own are kinda just sitting there unloved. As of now though I am changing things. Just this weekend, I ended a long running 3.5E campaign and I'm taking a break for a while before starting up my next one. Based on the overwhelmingly positive comments I've read from all the 3pps on this thread, and even the "proving their point" offers from Lisa, I have decided to finally switch over to Pathfinder for my next campaign.

I'll be using the time between campaigns to brush up on the differences between 3.5 and PFRPG so that I can run it for my players. It's time to join this party in action instead of just showing interest from the sidelines. Thanks to everyone for showing me that Paizo is truly deserving of my FULL attention as a player of their game. Also, you can be sure that I'll be checking out all of the 3pp via Paizo's master list to see what extra products will suit my game.

Its tales like yours that make me smile.


Lyingbastard wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:


also this is truly interesting:
Save 3PPs for D&D

You do realize that was the motivation for Rite Publishing's Open Letter to thank Paizo, right? This very thread is because of that?

Ah the circle of life :)


W

Rite Publishing wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:


also this is truly interesting:
Save 3PPs for D&D

You do realize that was the motivation for Rite Publishing's Open Letter to thank Paizo, right? This very thread is because of that?
Ah the circle of life :)

Actually, no, no I did not. While my spooky powers are vast and varied, I have yet to develop long range telepathy, especially of the invasisve kind. Also, I am pretty sure this thread was created before the thread in which I found said letter to WotC. After the debacle(that word doesn't get used often enough) that is/was 4e, I have pretty much stopped paying attention to anything WotC does or anything involving them, even Magic the Gathering which I used to support and read about all the time.

Either way, I figured some knew of that letter, but others might not have.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Spiralbound wrote:

I knew that Paizo/Pathfinder was ascending in popularity and sales. I saw Paizo promoting their 3pp in their newsletter, but I didn't realize just how well they treated their 3pp nor how many of them there were until reading the original thank you open letter and this thread. I am even more impressed than before, and I started out feeling positive towards Paizo!

I also have a confession to make. I've been playing D20 since it came out and when PF was in development I was interested, and when 4E came out I didn't like it (I tried it too btw) and continued playing 3.5E... not PFRPG. Even after my wife bought the core PFRPG rulebook for me for Xmas 2009(!) I still haven't played it! Why didn't I make the switch?

I don't know. I guess it was momentum. I already have a sizeable library of 3.5 books and the 3 PFRPG books I now own are kinda just sitting there unloved. As of now though I am changing things. Just this weekend, I ended a long running 3.5E campaign and I'm taking a break for a while before starting up my next one. Based on the overwhelmingly positive comments I've read from all the 3pps on this thread, and even the "proving their point" offers from Lisa, I have decided to finally switch over to Pathfinder for my next campaign.

I'll be using the time between campaigns to brush up on the differences between 3.5 and PFRPG so that I can run it for my players. It's time to join this party in action instead of just showing interest from the sidelines. Thanks to everyone for showing me that Paizo is truly deserving of my FULL attention as a player of their game. Also, you can be sure that I'll be checking out all of the 3pp via Paizo's master list to see what extra products will suit my game.

Its tales like yours that make me smile.

Can we get a "heck yes" ? :)


Monkeygod wrote:


Actually, no, no I did not. While my spooky powers are vast and varied, I have yet to develop long range telepathy, especially of the invasisve kind. Also, I am pretty sure this thread was created before the thread in which I found said letter to WotC. After the debacle(that word doesn't get used often enough) that is/was 4e, I have pretty much stopped paying attention to anything WotC does or anything involving them, even Magic the Gathering which I used to support and read about all the time.

Either way, I figured some knew of that letter, but others might not have.

If you followed the link in my original post to my open letter you will see in the very first sentence.

"After reading a recent appeal to Wizards of the Coast by a Third Party Publisher supporting 4th Edition, and thinking about a recent Q&A in our FREE e-zine Pathways, I realized I owe Paizo a thank you.

So you did not need telepathy. much less the invasive kind.

It is also quite correct that I wrote the open letter in response to Chris Dias's Letter.

Sorry if it caused confusion.

Steve Russell
Rite Publishing


Spiralbound wrote:


I'll be using the time between campaigns to brush up on the differences between 3.5 and PFRPG so that I can run it for my players.

Just for your information: There's a conversion guide somewhere. It should point out the more general changes.

Stuff like "all classes and races are different", "Feats at every odd level instead of every 3 levels" and so on.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Here's a link to the conversion guide page.

Scarab Sages

Brekkil wrote:

I hate to put sour grapes into the bowl... but not everything is peachy with Paizo. For one, I dislike how they play favourites on the store blog. Headless Hydra Games have not had an endorsement in over a year, and we've created lots of great PFRPG products. Certain companies can piss in a bowl and get it on the store blog.

- Axel

First off, I want to thank Paizo as a consumer for the access to and support of third party creators.

Second, I want to thank all the third party creators for doing what you do. Creating interesting and useful works, and also the true gratitude you show to the consumers.

Third, I'd like to address Axel's post:

Axel's words were rather strong, but my sense was they came from frustration, not hate. Maybe this thread wasn't the forum to bring it up. Maybe he could have taken a different approach, but it may have some merit, since Lisa gave it consideration. I hope Axel sees Lisa's response and takes it in a positive light.

Oh and Axel, thanks for the FREE adventure! At the Heart of Evil is a cool little module. I have not run it, but it was a fun read.

Fourth, other Paizonian's please, don't counter knee-jerk to Axel's knee-jerk. Harlin Ellison, the respected science fiction writer was criticized for not being a terribly friendly person to his readers. He was asked why he wasn't kinder to those who buy his books and provide him with income. I found his reply to be thought provoking. He said (paraphrased), "You know what I owe my readers for buying my books? A good story." Just saying not all creators are fluffy bunnies, but we can still enjoy the work.

Thanks.


Boerngrim wrote:


Third, I'd like to address Axel's post:

Axel's words were rather strong, but my sense was they came from frustration, not hate.

Doesn't really change anything, though.

Boerngrim wrote:


Maybe this thread wasn't the forum to bring it up. Maybe he could have taken a different approach, but it may have some merit, since Lisa gave it consideration.

Whether this thread was the forum to bring it up could be debated. I actually think that if someone felt not treated fairly, here would be a good place to make Paizo aware of it.

I wouldn't say that "maybe he could have taken a different approach". There's no maybe about it. And he definitely should have done so, too.

The fact that Lisa gave it consideration is more a sign of her level-headedness than this approach's merit. Had he did it without the snark, Lisa would have reacted just the same. The difference would have been that a lot of people hadn't made up their mind about him and his company as a hack who can't make something good so he'll have to denigrate the work of others.

Boerngrim wrote:


Fourth, other Paizonian's please, don't counter knee-jerk to Axel's knee-jerk.

Knee-jerk? Hardly.

The first comment he made might have been knee-jerk. Very unprofessional, but I might have let it slide. That's why I pointed it out: Instead of countering his knee-jerk with my own knee-jerk, I pointed out to him that his answer was not exactly endearing, so he could look at it again and say something.

And he did say something. Except that instead of easing up on his tone, he basically told me to go to hell if I didn't like his tone.

I'm all for giving someone a second chance, but that's it. This was the first I heard of him and his company, and he Siembiedaed us. Repeatedly.

I can't blame Paizo for "playing favourites", either. I wouldn't want to endorse such unprofessional, foul-mouthed companies on my store blog.

He pretty much dug his own grave. He deserves to fail. There are 6 posters who stated that they won't give that guy any money, and there are probably more who just didn't post.

That's not good in this business. It's hardly a big mainstream hobby, like computer games where you sell millions of copies within the first 24 hours of release. It's a niche hobby, and third-party publishers are a niche within that niche.

Boerngrim wrote:


Harlin Ellison, the respected science fiction writer was criticized for not being a terribly friendly person to his readers. He was asked why he wasn't kinder to those who buy his books and provide him with income. I found his reply to be thought provoking. He said (paraphrased), "You know what I owe my readers for buying my books? A good story." Just saying not all creators are fluffy bunnies, but we can still enjoy the work.

If you do things in the right order:

1. Create good content
2. Become well-known and respected for said content
3. Develop a vicious streak.

You can't just skip ahead to 3 and hope for 2 without doing 1.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Well said Steve.

Dark Archive

Marc Radle wrote:
DM Aron Marczylo wrote:

I have to admit Pathfinder has been doing very well, however me and my friend have been losing faith in Pathfinder, first with the gunslinger and it's ability to hit touch AC and now they've made things from bad to worse with the new playtest they released and what's also given him a blow to his faith is the changling stats.

I'm worried that it seems like paizo are running out of steam.

Kind of the wrong place for this kind of comment, perhaps?

However, I'm pretty confident Paizo has PLENTY more steam! The gunslinger 'class' is an extremely polarizing issue - some people love it, some hate it. But, keep in mind it's just one thing. Paizo continues to put out LOTS and LOTS of great stuff, day in and day out. If the gunslinger is not for you - don't use it. Instead, use the other 99% of awesomeness Paizo gives us!

(oh, and for the record, in case this just seems like a big pro-Paizo rant, I too kind of hate the gunslinger and will more than likely never use it or fire arms in my games)

Agreed, and I'm not a big fan of the gunslinger or any oriental-type stuff, either. However, gunslingers, ninja and samurai are all part of the setting, and Paizo *must* think of Golarion fans, too; it's important that the Pathfinder mechanics cover as much of Golarion stuff as only possible. Especially now when they're going to publish the Jade Regent AP, and I assume they might want to do adventures set in Mana Wastes at some point of time.

As for Paizo losing steam... hell, APG is one of my favorite RPG books ever, and probably the best supplement published under the OGL. And Bestiary 2 is far better than I even dared to hope. If they're losing steam, I haven't noticed it. I may not like everything in Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Magic (for example, Magus) but I expect to find way more useful stuff than just a handful of spells and a couple of feats (which was the usual situation for my group with a typical 3E supplement).

I may not be a publisher, but I wish to thank Paizo, too; communication with your guys -- whether on these boards or via e-mail -- has always been easy and effortless, and way too often you've replied in your spare time. :)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Asgetrion wrote:
...and way too often you've replied in your spare time.

We have spare time? Why has nobody told me?


Because you'd waste it eating bon-bons instead of technically directing?

Also, I wouldn't worry about Paizo running out of steam, people. There's plenty of tanks of hot air around here. Runs


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Because you'd waste it eating bon-bons instead of technically directing?

Also, I wouldn't worry about Paizo running out of steam, people. There's plenty of tanks of hot air around here. Runs

Ssssssssssssss


Lyingbastard wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Because you'd waste it eating bon-bons instead of technically directing?

Also, I wouldn't worry about Paizo running out of steam, people. There's plenty of tanks of hot air around here. Runs

Ssssssssssssss

Linkified.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Because you'd waste it eating bon-bons instead of technically directing?

Also, I wouldn't worry about Paizo running out of steam, people. There's plenty of tanks of hot air around here. Runs

Sssssssssss
Linkified.

FIFY


Brekkil wrote:

I wasn't going for endearing, I was simply voicing a concern of mine. If that gives me one less customer... well, so be it.

- Axel

I'm currently gearing up to run a new campaign, most of which will be my own homebrew stuff. That said, I've recently been scouring 3PP sources for anything and everything I can use to make my life easier. From source books to modules to adventure settings, I've been looking at it all.

Let me tell you.... I'm impressed! I had never really taken a look at 3PP before. The sheer volume of great stuff out there is amazing. Once I solidify what I need for the next campaign, I'm going on a shopping spree.

So, add me to the customers who want to thank Paizo for their support of 3PP and a big thanks to the 3PP who work hard to create content for my favorite RPG out there. And, in reference to the quote above, add me to the list of customers who will never purchase a product from a company who treats it's customer base with such contempt.

Again, Thanks!

-The Eel

Dark Archive

This thread has inspired me to buy a few 3 PP products - even from Headless Hydra. Even though Axel's comments were off putting I can understand his frustration.

Everyone deserves at least one chance - after that......no mercy

So far I am looking at Eldritch Secrets Spell compendium (headless hydra) and the upcoming Tome of Monsters (4 Winds). Need to buy a few things from Raging Swan (excellent material)..

..hmmm, yeah.... this is going to be a long list.

Contributor

Auxmaulous wrote:

This thread has inspired me to buy a few 3 PP products - even from Headless Hydra. Even though Axel's comments were off putting I can understand his frustration.

Everyone deserves at least one chance - after that......no mercy

So far I am looking at Eldritch Secrets Spell compendium (headless hydra) and the upcoming Tome of Monsters (4 Winds). Need to buy a few things from Raging Swan (excellent material)..

..hmmm, yeah.... this is going to be a long list.

The "List this Product" link underneath the "Add to Cart" button is awfully darn handy for adding things to your Wishlist. :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Brekkil,

I'd like to give you a chance to "take back the unpleasant things you said and apologize" and if you do, I will also look into giving Headless Hydra Games some of my 3pp dollars and "love".

And now swinging us back on topic...

I'm not a 3pp, but I'd like to thank Paizo as well for the support they show each and every 3pp out there. If not for the Store Blog (or stumbling across a "random" post by one of the 3pp's) I might not know such a variety of Pathfinder Compatible material existed.

So, thank you Paizo!

Thanks as well to all the Third Party Publishers for your hard work.

~Dean "The_Minstrel_Wyrm" Siemsen

Scarab Sages

Hey there KaeYoss,

It wasn't my intent to justify Axel's venom. His approach was certainly in bad form. I don't believe Lisa would have thought that his delivery or tone had any merit. I agree that Lisa being willing to consider his underlying point despite the attitude is a sign of her thoughtfulness and openmindedness.

Does Axel deserve to fail? He deserves to take whatever consequences spring from his actions, as we all must. From your perspective, he certainly does not deserve your business. He has lost some potential goodwill and potential customers, now it is up to Axel to learn from this or not.

That's all I got to say about that.

Thanks.


I actually understand Axel's frustration. So should the OP, IIRC, who shared similar frustrations when he first started up and went through his own growing pains until he stuck it out through a pattern and drive that assisted him in getting more attention (and deservedly so) today.

Sure, the frustration is there. But I don't see it as being venomous. I'll continue to see what Headless Hydra has to offer.


Urizen wrote:

I actually understand Axel's frustration. So should the OP, IIRC, who shared similar frustrations when he first started up and went through his own growing pains until he stuck it out through a pattern and drive that assisted him in getting more attention (and deservedly so) today.

Sure, the frustration is there. But I don't see it as being venomous. I'll continue to see what Headless Hydra has to offer.

What he said.

Grand Lodge

KaeYoss wrote:

If you do things in the right order:

1. Create good content
2. Become well-known and respected for said content
3. Develop a vicious streak.

You can't just skip ahead to 3 and hope for 2 without doing 1

+1

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Rite Publishing wrote:
Urizen wrote:

I actually understand Axel's frustration. So should the OP, IIRC, who shared similar frustrations when he first started up and went through his own growing pains until he stuck it out through a pattern and drive that assisted him in getting more attention (and deservedly so) today.

Sure, the frustration is there. But I don't see it as being venomous. I'll continue to see what Headless Hydra has to offer.

What he said.

+2


Well, I wasn't really going to return to this thread, but my freelancers said that I should, so here I am. I'll try to weigh my words better this time.

This is NOT AN APOLOGY... lets call it an explanation instead and a Thank You! to those who tried to understand my frustration (because that is what it was) and not put any other meaning into my words of frustration.

My company works a bit differently than most 3PP... I dont publish small pdfs every week. I dont use clip art packages (to save money). I take the time needed to publish the product that I like (this is just a hobby for me, not a livelyhood, so I am sorry, but I dont feel like I need to suck up to customers), I hire the freelancers that I want to work with and even take months to find the right artists for my products. I also sell my products for far less money than I should, at least if I wanted to break even! :) Which I dont.

I am loosing money with each product I put out there, but that is how I want it. I even gave away a PFRPG adventure for free! Some would (and have) called this madness! :) That product cost me around $400 to make in artwork and cartography alone.

So yes, I felt (and feel) frustrated that Headless Hydra Games hard work have been overlooked on the Paizo store blog. There may be some good reason for this, as some has speculated, but that really doesn't make me less frustrated. I am, however, thankful that it seems like my prayers have been heard.

Lastly, if you dont want to buy my products because of one, perhaps two sentences spoken in frustration... well, yes, I am afraid the loss is yours. Arrogant? Perhaps, but I pour my heart and soul into every product, and not just for my own sake... FOR YOURS AS WELL.

Thanks for your time!

- Axel | Headless Hydra Games

Oh, and I do have a bone to pick with customers in general, but I'll save that for a rainy day! :)


Brekkil wrote:
Oh, and I do have a bone to pick with customers in general, but I'll save that...

Hi Axel!

I have yet to weigh into this thread, as I really didn't have much constructive to say before, but I thought I might, as a customer of Paizo and many of the great 3PP products associated with Pathfinder.

To give you a little background I have a degree in Communication with a concentration in Public Relations. I have also worked in the journalism field as both a reporter and newspaper editor. I have also done some PR work for different entities (mostly charities).

Now, I can understand that this is a sideline for you. Heck, it's probably a sideline for most folks in the business. It's not like anyone is going to get rich producing 3PP content for a niche hobby =)

That being said, if you don't care for what the customer thinks, or care about how well your product does, why are you even publishing it as a for-money product? I'm not trying to start a fight here, please take this as constructive criticism.

However, it seems counter-productive, not to mention expensive, to put out a product and expect, nay prefer, it to fail. Why not go the free route then if things are as you say?

If you are speaking the truth, and money means nothing in relation to these products, I assume you are doing them more for the recognition and esoteric prestige of being a Pathfinder 3PP. I can respect that, but to my perception you are endangering that as well. Saying you don't care about the customers almost ensures you won't have any. I am sure you are also doing it for the love of the game. But the game is its audience as well. I'd hate to see a promising 3PP shoot himself in the foot over a point of pride.

If this is a 'any publicity is good publicity' kind of thing, and you are trying that gambit, all I can say is be careful. That is a tightrope over a pit of razor blades. One false move and your product could acquire a bad reputation, undeserved but no less real. Of course, I am replying to this thread, so you are generating some attention.

Personally, I will try to keep a neutral outlook and peruse your stuff. Peace, and I hope that you are a success.


Thank you! This is exactly the bone that I have to pick...

I do want to know what my customers think! However, I want to know what they think about my products... they can do this easily, by writing reviews, however...

VERY FEW CUSTOMERS WRITE REVIEWS, well, at least of my products!

If they truly appreciate a publisher's hard work, they should find a couple of minutes to tell them. I don't mind a bad review... if it has merits, it only helps me (the publisher) make a better product next time.

I know a lot of other 3PP gets plenty of reviews, and I am not sure why, because I certainly dont. :)

Lastly, if you knew me, you would know that this isn't an "any publicity is good publicity" stunt. You are not a publisher, so you dont know what it means to be endorsed on the store blog. And just because I dont care that much about earning money, doesn't mean that I dont want people reading my products. I certainly do. But to avoid my products just because I was venting my frustrations... well, I can't respect that.

Thanks!

- Axel

Shadow Lodge

Brekkil, I don't think anyone here really took offense to you saying that you wished that you would get some spotlight time on the blog. The problem came with this:

Brekkil wrote:
Certain companies can piss in a bowl and get it on the store blog.

That right there is what alienated people towards you and your company.

Scarab Sages

Brekkil wrote:
I know a lot of other 3PP gets plenty of reviews, and I am not sure why, because I certainly dont. :)

Some others will probably weigh in on this - but reviews can be hard to get because there are lots of products and relatively few people willing to write reviews.

The best thing you can do to begin cultivating reviewers, in my opinion, is take the time to find our which people are regularly reviewing products, send them a free copy of your work and politely ask them to review it.

This will not work 100% of the time but you have to actively pursue the reviews if you want the reviews.


Brekkil,

I freelance for a 3PP, so I very well do understand how significant it is to be featured in the store blog. The 3PP I freelance for was featured this very week, actually. And there are reasons for that:

a) the company is having a sale to celebrate it's second anniversary.
b) 4WFG has a new product that's doing pretty well (#9 in this week's Paizo Newsletter under 'Top Selling Products By Other Companies' and #5 in last week's RPG Countdown)
c) an upcoming major release (hunter1828 will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we're considering hardcover for the next one) and a good library of products already available.

This gives Paizo a lot to work with.

If you don't have a lot of stuff available, and you don't release it often, and there's not much company news to talk about, what exactly is Paizo supposed to feature? Something that's been out for months with little attention to it?

Yeah, it sucks to get passed by. But when you go ages without a major release, that's going to happen.

Now, for what I have a problem with in your posts:

a) you publicly denigrate your colleagues / competitors - saying that they can "piss in a bowl and get featured", for example. That's unprofessional and seems like sour grapes.

b) you seem to think that you put more into your products than other 3PPs. I know that the company I work for uses mostly original art from a very talented group of artists, and it's a significant expense. I myself am just one of several freelance writers. Projects take several months to complete, even when everyone's on time. So that doesn't make you particularly unique.

c) you seem to hold up your poor business plan as some kind of virtue, which I honestly find a bit baffling.

d) you whine about not getting attention, when you have precious little to feature.

e) you bag on the customer, which is never a good idea.

If you're not going to act like a professional, don't expect to be treated like one. If you're not running your 3PP as a business, don't expect to succeed. And if you don't have anything to talk about, don't blame Paizo for not mentioning you.


Again, you are reading your own meaning into my words. I don't think my company is better than others, but I certainly don't think my company is worse. I think my company should get the same amount of attention as everyone else.

Also, I dont just speak out on my own behalf.

Right, I don't publish a lot of products every year, but I can tell you that Paizo know who I am and what business I run, they featured my products in the beginning, but thats a while back now. I've sold some great products since that could really have benefitted from some time on the store blog.

Also, every time I sell a product, paizo earns a bit of money.

If my one comment was sour grapes, which I said myself as I posted it, what are yours? If you hold yourself to a higher standard, then stop speaking badly about me and Headless Hydra Games. Instead, buy one of my products and see for yourself if there is anything worth reading.

And yes, I wouldn't call myself a professional, but I still run a pretty professional business.

Thanks again!

- Axel


Brekkil wrote:

Again, you are reading your own meaning into my words. I don't think my company is better than others, but I certainly don't think my company is worse. I think my company should get the same amount of attention as everyone else.

Also, I dont just speak out on my own behalf.

Right, I don't publish a lot of products every year, but I can tell you that Paizo know who I am and what business I run, they featured my products in the beginning, but thats a while back now. I've sold some great products since that could really have benefitted from some time on the store blog.

Also, every time I sell a product, paizo earns a bit of money.

If my one comment was sour grapes, which I said myself as I posted it, what are yours? If you hold yourself to a higher standard, then stop speaking badly about me and Headless Hydra Games. Instead, buy one of my products and see for yourself if there is anything worth reading.

And yes, I wouldn't call myself a professional, but I still run a pretty professional business.

Thanks again!

- Axel

My comments are in response to your posts in this thread. I don't know your work, it might be amazing. But your behavior is not endearing, and saying things like "I don't care if I lose a customer" or "I have problems with customers" won't win you customers.

And that goes into the issue, too. Paizo is more likely to feature products that will sell because they make money off of it too, as you correctly point out. If you aren't getting a lot of sales, then there isn't much incentive to highlight you. But that's just my opinion.

I don't know anything about Headless Hydra Games. But I do know that you, Axel, come off as very abrasive and unprofessional, and that does not put your company in a good light.


Brekkil wrote:

Again, you are reading your own meaning into my words. I don't think my company is better than others, but I certainly don't think my company is worse. I think my company should get the same amount of attention as everyone else.

Also, I dont just speak out on my own behalf.

Right, I don't publish a lot of products every year, but I can tell you that Paizo know who I am and what business I run, they featured my products in the beginning, but thats a while back now. I've sold some great products since that could really have benefitted from some time on the store blog.

Also, every time I sell a product, paizo earns a bit of money.

If my one comment was sour grapes, which I said myself as I posted it, what are yours? If you hold yourself to a higher standard, then stop speaking badly about me and Headless Hydra Games. Instead, buy one of my products and see for yourself if there is anything worth reading.

And yes, I wouldn't call myself a professional, but I still run a pretty professional business.

Thanks again!

- Axel

I will just say I am sure Paizo now knows who you are, but I think it is for the wrong reason to be known for.


Lyingbastard wrote:

I don't know anything about Headless Hydra Games. But I do know that you, Axel, come off as very abrasive and unprofessional, and that does not put your company in a good light.

I was just going to shrug and leave this discussion after my first post and the reply it got, but I want to give a +1 to this. I have had this argument before with people who don't think their attitude or actions shouldn't reflect on their ideas or products. That somehow they should be judged in a vacuum, like scientific theories. However it is just human nature to be swayed by your perception of a company and its policies.

You are the 'face' of Headless Hydra Games. What you say in a public forum will influence how people perceive both you and the company you represent. You can have the best product in the world, but if people are annoyed enough at you not to look at it than you lose. You might not 'respect' their feelings, but that won't change the fact that you have less customers. If you come off as unprofessional, people will assume your company is unprofessional.

Any and all products are intimately tied into marketing. That's why companies spend millions on advertising. Right now, you ARE the marketing for HHG, whether you choose to accept this responsibility or not.

If you don't make the customer feel important and wanted, they will find somewhere else to go. Whether you want this to happen or not, it will. In these economic times nobody wants to give money to someone that they feel has insulted them. By saying you don't care about the customer or that customers are mean/lazy by being stingy with reviews, you are insulting them, whether that is your intention or not.

Anyway, I'll be going. I'm still trying to maintain a neutral outlook on your products, but it is getting harder. That whole perception thing again. Good luck.


Here's the thing about the way the face plays into business. There's more people selling more things than I can afford to buy. So, other things being (or seeming) equal, will I make some choices based on face? Sure I will, and I'm just going to go ahead and assert the same of almost every customer on earth. So it literally pays to put your best face forward. Customers will both give more money to folks they like and withhold business from folks they dislike. This isn't meant to be condescending or picking anybody out, it's just the fact, Jack.

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