Acid + Grease = massive damage potential?

[Nightskies]

First, links to the two items in question.

Acid (as an alchemical power component)
Grease (intent to use acid as an alchemical power component)

Cast on armor. Since a save only allows the creature to keep holding the object, no save or spell resist. Withdraw from combat. Commence skirmishing until they take off armor or until they've taken 10 acid damage/level. Acid states the damage continues as long as the item is held, surely wearing the thing counts as holding. Or perhaps a reflex save to prevent the damage over time effect counts, but it would still be very effective given that. Since it takes time, its not effective in a committed combat, but seems an overly powerful hit-and-run tactic, never mind it being a 1st level spell.

So the question is: is this rules legal? If so, how bad is the cheese factor, would you allow it? I've already done a search and only found one person citing this tactic, and nobody said anything about it.

[theishi]

The save allows you to move out of the way and avoid getting the grease on the object. If you cast it on a weapon and fail the save, you drop the object, otherwise your sword is not greased. Otherwise they would make a reflex save every round to continue holding the item.

[mplindustries]

The acid only deals damage to those in the area of the spell or holding a greased item. Armor is neither of those things (and that fact is critical to the success of your plan), so it does not apply. You can Grease their armor with Acid as a component and it will have no special effect.

[Swordteach]

I too thought about the armor application since it says in the spell:

A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.

This makes me think the grease is on the outside of the armor so no acid damage to the wearer. However, if cast on a held item:

while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item.

I think they must make continuous saves each round to hold onto the item until the duration ends. So if they successfully hold it then they should take the 1 acid damage each round they hold it or they can choose to drop it.

Of course, I'm just a relatively new player not a GM, but that's how I see it.

Another thought, does the acid damage weaken the item at all? I mean a 5th lvl caster casting grease with acid (as an alchemical power component) would deal 30pts of damage over 5 mins unless the owner took time to clean it off. That could damage or destroy a lot of items. anyone want to chime in on this?

[shadowkras]

Quote:

or until they've taken 10 acid damage/level.

Not sure where you got that, but it states 1 point of acid damage while they are on the grease effect, or while they are holding the item greased. I believe you said 10 because it takes a full minute to take off armors (variable though).

Armors are wearable, not holdable. Thus you cant grease with acid an armor, but you can acid-grease the ground under the target.
And until they move away, they will take 1 point of acid damage per turn.

So you cast acid-grease on the ground, anyone in the area of effect make a reflex or fall. And when they try to move, if they fail their acrobatics check, they cant move and must make another reflex or fall.
And by the end of your action, they take 1 point of acid damage, regardless of result, as long as they are inside the area of acid-grease.

It's a pretty good tactic to cast on someone wearing a full-plate.

Quote:

Another thought, does the acid damage weaken the item at all? I mean a 5th lvl caster casting grease with acid (as an alchemical power component) would deal 30pts of damage over 5 mins unless the owner took time to clean it off. That could damage or destroy a lot of items. anyone want to chime in on this?

Yes, it would destroy a lot of items. But items arent automatically vulnerable to acid, as energy attacks reduce the item's hardness by half (round down). So if the item has 2+ hardness it would resist the acid damage and no harm would be done to it. Paper, glass, ice, rope and clothes (mundane) are particularly vulnerable to this, as they have 0 hardness.

If the item is magical, the holder can make a Reflex or Fortitude save using 2 + 1/2 Caster Level (item's CL) check to prevent the damage. And every magic weapon or armor has at least 2 hardness because of the +1 enhancement bonus.

[Swordteach]

Err, lemme adjust my statement, I meant 50pts over 5 mins not 30. However I see what you mean about the hardness, although I was thinking about mundane weapons, not magical. I just thought that if a character (player or otherwise) left their acid greased weapon on the ground during a fight regardless of hardness if it sits for a while the acid should have some effect, even a minimum of 1 damage per minute regardless of hardness,(especially on wooden handles or wrapped pommels) unless washed off.

Unless the spell is creating a mild acidic compound, if left on an item for minutes (duration is 1 min/lvl for grease) there should be some effect on non-magical items (heck even the weak carbonic acid in sodas can affect some materials if given enough time). I mean the spell effect is 1pt of damage every 6 seconds to skin (10 pts in a minute), that would kill most 1st-lvl characters if no healing is provided or the affected area is not cleansed to stop it.

[Bronnwynn]

Acid is not universal. Indeed, acid in PF specifically, and RPGs in general, is rarely strictly *acid*, and instead refers to something with acidic properties. It's quite possible to have a liquid that eats away at flesh without damaging metal. Particularly if such a thing would otherwise be overpowered.

The hardness of an item represents it's resilience. It's quite possible for me to pour certain types of liquid that'll burn and damage flesh onto a sheet of metal without the metal suffering any adverse effects.

Also, 10gp and a 1st level spell for that much damage is utterly ridiculous.

[shadowkras]

Quote:

Unless the spell is creating a mild acidic compound, if left on an item for minutes (duration is 1 min/lvl for grease) there should be some effect on non-magical items (heck even the weak carbonic acid in sodas can affect some materials if given enough time). I mean the spell effect is 1pt of damage every 6 seconds to skin (10 pts in a minute), that would kill most 1st-lvl characters if no healing is provided or the affected area is not cleansed to stop it.

Yes, but there are acids and ACIDS.

A 1-damage acid is really weak, if it was 1d6 or higher it would probably cause a lot of damage to unattended items.

You could easily say the handle would get damaged a bit over a few minutes, but the blade would be unnaffected because the acid is weak.