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Surprise Spells
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Normally one would think to apply this too higher level AOE spells but if you apply it to a quickened intensified magic missile things get pretty crazy. In a past thread I created everyone agreed that an intensified magic missile probably allows the caster to create two more magic missiles than the regular version. So since surprise spells gets around the restriction that only spells that require attack rolls can get sneak attack damage we can get in about 14 attacks per round that cannot miss. So assuming our target has no spell resistance or that we pass every spell penetration check a 1oth level arcane trickster can very easily deal 14d4 + 98d6 force damage. I'm not aware of anything that can top that.
In a past thread I created everyone agreed that an intensified magic missile probably allows the caster to create two more magic missiles than the regular version.
You might want to read the thread again. At least half the replies were that this would NOT work. And at least half the replies that said they would LET it work, admitted it was a house rule.
So since surprise spells gets around the restriction that only spells that require attack rolls can get sneak attack damage we can get in about 14 attacks per round that cannot miss.
If you can catch seven enemies flat-footed, then sure. Considering your level and the resources you're expending, this isn't unreasonable.
So assuming our target has no spell resistance or that we pass every spell penetration check a 1oth level arcane trickster can very easily deal 14d4 + 98d6 force damage. I'm not aware of anything that can top that.
You're a level 15 spellcaster spending a sixth-level and a second-level spell each round against seven flat-footed opponents to get 2d4 + 14d6 damage to each of them. This is not impressive.
Surprise Spells says it adds the sneak attack damage to the spell not to each missile.
That's how I'd rule, anyway (and I'd allow intensified spell on magic missile). So in my game, you'd at most get 14d4+14d6 damage in the round for a 6th level (5th if you take the trait) spell. This averages 84 damage no save if done to a single target.
Or... perhaps the sneak attack adds to each target. If you break the spell up to multiple targets, then I could see applying sneak attack to each. Either way, I don't see this doing 14d4+98d6 to one target. That's just me, though.
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You're a level 15 spellcaster spending a sixth-level and a second-level spell each round against seven flat-footed opponents to get 2d4 + 14d6 damage to each of them. This is not impressive.
I don't see why each missile couldn't target the same creature.
Magic Missile
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile - two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
you can have them strike a single creature
... so you deal 14d4 + 14d6 damage to one creature. Still not impressive.
As other posters have made clear, you get your sneak attack damage to each target once per spell, not separately for each missile.
I had been musing about this recently as well. It does bring up an interesting case with magic missile (or scorching ray, or any spell that allows multiple "hits" from a single spell) when using Surprise Spell and adding sneak attack damage to the spell.
If you allow that Magic Missile adds sneak attack per opponent (which is in essence per missile), then why wouldn't a single opponent suffer all of the damage? I can see the OP's argument for why it works.
Personally, I won't let it work that way in my game because I feel it's overpowered, but that's me.
The sneak attack damage would be divided amongst the missiles. However, doesn't sneak attack's bonus damage have to be delivered via an attack roll spell?
Not a big deal per se, since you have to beat SR; brooches of shielding absorb 101 points of that damage; a shield spell or either globe of invulnerability stop it completely (let alone some of the higher level abjurations, a lesser counterpelling ring properly loaded, spell immunity...) so it is not particularly "broken".
What will really mess you up is spell turning (which only counts a single spell level from its total) or Parry Spell. Can you survive your own damage output?
It's still a nice attack, make no mistake. If the sneak attack applies to each missile when directed at seperate targets, assuming they survive, you have just gotten all of their undivided attention. Oops! ^_^
What will really mess you up is spell turning (which only counts a single spell level from its total) or Parry Spell. Can you survive your own damage output?
While spell turning would stop it...and damage you as well I don't think the SA ould apply to you...as you are not flat footed...as you just cast a spell.
But in my opinion it would effect once per target. Just my opinion as to the RAW and RAI.
I had been musing about this recently as well. It does bring up an interesting case with magic missile (or scorching ray, or any spell that allows multiple "hits" from a single spell) when using Surprise Spell and adding sneak attack damage to the spell.
If you allow that Magic Missile adds sneak attack per opponent (which is in essence per missile), then why wouldn't a single opponent suffer all of the damage? I can see the OP's argument for why it works.
Personally, I won't let it work that way in my game because I feel it's overpowered, but that's me.
I don't know what the official ruling is, but one sneak attack per person is the way I'd rule. If you can suprise 5 people hit with 5 different missles from the same spell then apply one sneak per person. If you suprise 1 person and hit them with 5 missles from the same spell then apply sneak attack damage once. Apply this same concept to any single spell that has multiple rays/missles/etc. Of course, this is assuming you can get around the fact that you can't sneak attack with a spell that doesnt require an attack role.
I would not allow MM to utilize precision damage.
You can't be precise if you don't aim the spell, ie. roll an attack roll.
Magic Missiles just hit, they dont hit specific areas.
So, when this targets someone with Spell Turning up, do you take your own sneak attack damage?
Um...I already addressed that in a post just three up.
No because you are not flat footed. Would be my ruling.
I would not allow MM to utilize precision damage.
You can't be precise if you don't aim the spell, ie. roll an attack roll.
Magic Missiles just hit, they dont hit specific areas.
So what do you replace the 10th Arcane trickster ability with? Considering Fireballs are not what I would could precision attacks either.
So what do you replace the 10th Arcane trickster ability with? Considering Fireballs are not what I would could precision attacks either.I would not allow MM to utilize precision damage.
You can't be precise if you don't aim the spell, ie. roll an attack roll.
Magic Missiles just hit, they dont hit specific areas.
Something that makes sense.
Increase the save DC's for spells vs. flat footed foes?EDIT: OR how about...
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, if the targets are flat-footed, the arcane trickster may apply a bonus to the save DC or spell resistance penetration check equal to her sneak attack dice. So, if she has a 7d6 sneak attak, she applies a +7 to the DC or adds +7 to her roll to defeat spell resistance against a flat footed enemy.
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Use the orc bloodline. Then get a Lesser Metamagic Wand of Quicken. It's still not that impressive. It's not even new, I had the same idea about a year and a half ago.
There are lots of things that get wonky in high-level Pathfinder. This isn't really one of them. It gives you a decent damage option, but for its cost isn't overpowering at 14d4 + 14d6 to a single target or 2d4 + 14d6 to seven different targets. Nice damage, but not outrageous for a higher level character. The 14d4 + 98d6 against a single target the OP quotes would be over the top, but that would be an extremely liberal (or inexperienced and/or clueless) GM who allowed it, and there would likely be even more unbalancing things such a DM would allow.
Yar!
Surprise Spell is fine as it is. You get to add sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, provided the targets are flat-footed.
If you cast a fireball and hit 7 guys, and 4 of them are flat footed, you deal fireball + sneak attack damage to 4 guys, and regular fireball damage to 3. If you hit only one guy who is flat footed, he takes fireball + sneak attack damage.
With magic missile - and any other spell that gives you the option of single targets with added effects or multiple targets with singular effect - you can apply sneak attack damage to the spell provided the target(s) are flat-footed. The spell, not to each effect the spell creates. If you can inflict 3d6 sneak attack damage and create 5 magic missiles, and you have 4 targets, you can hit 3 targets once each and 1 target twice. Let’s say they are all flat-footed. The three who got hit by 1 missile take 1d4+1+3d6 damage. The one who got hit by 2 missiles takes 2d4+2+3d6 damage. That's right; the one hit by multiple missiles only takes sneak attack damage only once.
This mechanic already exists elsewhere: in the Many Shot feat. Sure you don't get to choose multiple targets, but a single target hit with both arrows takes sneak attack damage only once. This is because it is not two separate attacks, but two projectiles fired at the same time as one attack.
A high level Magic Missile does not give you 5 attacks as if you cast a low level MM 5 times; it gives you 5 projectiles that you send off to your choice of target(s) at the same time, via one single spell, thus, applying sneak attack damage with this ability only once (per flat-footed target).
~P
Edit: or this:
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.
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Agreed, Scorching Ray is definitely the way to go in regards to Arcane Trickster damage. Since we can count on more touch-range spells being added in Ultimate Magic for the Magus, I'd be willing to bet Arcane Trickster will be able to benefit from it as well.
Along the same vein, though, you could do Quickened Magic Missile/ Normal Magic Missile and still add the sneak attack damage twice to the same creature without missing.
Alternatively, you could do so with Intensified Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and all sorts of other spells to really make them work well. Yeah, it requires that opponents be flat-footed, but with so many stealth options available to a Rogue with Arcane Spellcasting, getting Flat-Footed opponents shouldn't be a problem (Grease, anyone?).
I've always loved the idea of an arcane trickster, but I never seem to get to a high enough level to make one work.
Edit: I also just realized that Magus actually works REALLY well with Arcane Trickster. You could potentially full-attack from a flank (while invisible, of course), get off your melee attacks for sneak attack damage, and then throw down a melee-touch Scorching Ray on top of it, and STILL be able to use a quickened Scorching Ray if need be. Combine with Haste for more fun.
Edit**: Actually, why not use Ninja/Magus/Arcane Trickster? You get the ability to go Invisible without using up spell slots, the nifty Ki pool, and Spell Combat.
Something that makes sense.
Increase the save DC's for spells vs. flat footed foes?EDIT: OR how about...
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, if the targets are flat-footed, the arcane trickster may apply a bonus to the save DC or spell resistance penetration check equal to her sneak attack dice. So, if she has a 7d6 sneak attak, she applies a +7 to the DC or adds +7 to her roll to defeat spell resistance against a flat footed enemy.
That is pretty cool. I like it...it is actualy alot like the Beguiler's ability(iteresting enough called Cloak Casting...which worked of their Surprise Casting ability).
But then again...if someone is not expecting a fireball to go off...and you place the fireball just right...I can see it doing more damage. So I am ok with that ability as is...but yours is a nice alternative if people can't see it working.
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.
Just out of curiosity, but how is this different than a fireball or ray? There's still only one spell, but theoretically the fireball adds sneak attack damage to every flat footed target in the area.
Or is it your intention that ANY spell using this ability can only do sneak attack damage to one target?
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.Just out of curiosity, but how is this different than a fireball or ray? There's still only one spell, but theoretically the fireball adds sneak attack damage to every flat footed target in the area.
Or is it your intention that ANY spell using this ability can only do sneak attack damage to one target?
I think he means one missile per target.
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.Just out of curiosity, but how is this different than a fireball or ray? There's still only one spell, but theoretically the fireball adds sneak attack damage to every flat footed target in the area.
Or is it your intention that ANY spell using this ability can only do sneak attack damage to one target?
I think he means like the warmage edge from the 3.5 warmage. They added INT bonus to damage, but only once per spell. So if they threw 5 magic missiles, only one of those 5 got the bonus damage.
Suprise spell would work the same way, except maybe in the case of scorching ray, as you have to roll to hit for each ray so each would get the bonus..?Fireball is AOE, sure, but still one spell. Each flatfooted target would get hit for SA damage on top of fireball damage.
EDIT: I guess it'd better to say that this ability allows for and encourages AOE spells recieving SA damage.
If your playing arcane trickster and MISSING with scorching ray, you've built it wrong... there is NO way you miss save on a nat 1Agreed, Scorching Ray is definitely the way to go in regards to Arcane Trickster damage. Since we can count on more touch-range spells being added in Ultimate Magic for the Magus, I'd be willing to bet Arcane Trickster will be able to benefit from it as well.
Along the same vein, though, you could do Quickened Magic Missile/ Normal Magic Missile and still add the sneak attack damage twice to the same creature without missing.
Alternatively, you could do so with Intensified Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and all sorts of other spells to really make them work well. Yeah, it requires that opponents be flat-footed, but with so many stealth options available to a Rogue with Arcane Spellcasting, getting Flat-Footed opponents shouldn't be a problem (Grease, anyone?).
I've always loved the idea of an arcane trickster, but I never seem to get to a high enough level to make one work.
Edit: I also just realized that Magus actually works REALLY well with Arcane Trickster. You could potentially full-attack from a flank (while invisible, of course), get off your melee attacks for sneak attack damage, and then throw down a melee-touch Scorching Ray on top of it, and STILL be able to use a quickened Scorching Ray if need be. Combine with Haste for more fun.
Edit**: Actually, why not use Ninja/Magus/Arcane Trickster? You get the ability to go Invisible without using up spell slots, the nifty Ki pool, and Spell Combat.
Is there an exception to the "only one spell per round ever" rule?
Creative Director
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| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.Just out of curiosity, but how is this different than a fireball or ray? There's still only one spell, but theoretically the fireball adds sneak attack damage to every flat footed target in the area.
Or is it your intention that ANY spell using this ability can only do sneak attack damage to one target?
It's lower level, for one thing.
It's not an area effect spell, for another thing.
A surprise spell fireball WOULD inflict its extra sneak attack damage to everyone caught in the area, because everyone's taking the same damage.
With magic missile, you have to CHOOSE how that damage is parceled out.
Also, magic missile never misses and has no save to reduce the damage at all. Allowing sneak attack to add to every single missile is simply stupid overpowering in this specific case. Magic missile itself already breaks a lot of implied/unwritten rules of spell design, by the fact that it doesn't miss and you can't reduce the damage, on top of the fact that the TYPE of damage it does is almost impossible to reduce further via resistances or damage reduction.
It's a highly unusual spell. That calls for unusual rulings, basically.
James, so you're saying that you would rule Magic Missile to be unique and only allow the Sneak Attack damage against one specific target, regardless of how many creatures the spell itself targets? Is that correct?
In contrast, you would agree that Burning Hands will deal sneak attack damage to everyone in the cone, correct?
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| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Added to the FAQ. 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd rule scorching ray would do additional sneak attack damage per ray, honestly. But ONLY if the target is flat footed.
Treat multiple scorching rays on a single target the same way you'd treat a full attack action on a single target, in other words.
If you're popping out of stealth, you'd only get the sneak attack damage on the first ray of multiple rays on a single target, since he's only flat footed against your first attack; after that, even a split second later, he sees you and can react and isn't flat footed.
If you're hitting a target before he goes in combat or while under greater invisibility, all of the rays count.
Since scorching ray, unlike magic missile, uses a damage type (fire) that's actually often reduced by resistances, and since you DO have to make an attack to hit (however easy that attack might normally be), it's not nearly as gross to let all the rays be viable surprise spells, in other words.
You add the sneak attack damage to only one missile. There's multiple missiles, yeah, but only one spell.Just out of curiosity, but how is this different than a fireball or ray? There's still only one spell, but theoretically the fireball adds sneak attack damage to every flat footed target in the area.
Or is it your intention that ANY spell using this ability can only do sneak attack damage to one target?
It's lower level, for one thing.
It's not an area effect spell, for another thing.
A surprise spell fireball WOULD inflict its extra sneak attack damage to everyone caught in the area, because everyone's taking the same damage.
With magic missile, you have to CHOOSE how that damage is parceled out.
Also, magic missile never misses and has no save to reduce the damage at all. Allowing sneak attack to add to every single missile is simply stupid overpowering in this specific case. Magic missile itself already breaks a lot of implied/unwritten rules of spell design, by the fact that it doesn't miss and you can't reduce the damage, on top of the fact that the TYPE of damage it does is almost impossible to reduce further via resistances or damage reduction.
It's a highly unusual spell. That calls for unusual rulings, basically.
I just wanted a clear response. :) As you can see above, it was already causing confusion over whether you got your SA on every attack in an area of effect or ray attack. :)
It's still weird from a logical point of view (not balance PoV) that rays get it (since you can pick different targets) on each ray, but not MM.
I think perhaps something along the lines of :
...may add your sneak attack damage to any spell that either affects an area, or requires an attack role per target affected.
That would eliminate MM while cutting down on confusion, and still allowing rays and AoE's to work as intended.
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James, so you're saying that you would rule Magic Missile to be unique and only allow the Sneak Attack damage against one specific target, regardless of how many creatures the spell itself targets? Is that correct?
In contrast, you would agree that Burning Hands will deal sneak attack damage to everyone in the cone, correct?
That's correct.
Your GM might differ... but magic missile is already good enough AND it's a low level spell anyway.
Burning hands, which has a much shorter range, does damage that a lot of things are immune to or can resist, and allows a save to reduce the damage by half is much less heinous than magic missile in this case.
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Is there an exception to the "only one spell per round ever" rule?If your playing arcane trickster and MISSING with scorching ray, you've built it wrong... there is NO way you miss save on a nat 1Agreed, Scorching Ray is definitely the way to go in regards to Arcane Trickster damage. Since we can count on more touch-range spells being added in Ultimate Magic for the Magus, I'd be willing to bet Arcane Trickster will be able to benefit from it as well.
Along the same vein, though, you could do Quickened Magic Missile/ Normal Magic Missile and still add the sneak attack damage twice to the same creature without missing.
Alternatively, you could do so with Intensified Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and all sorts of other spells to really make them work well. Yeah, it requires that opponents be flat-footed, but with so many stealth options available to a Rogue with Arcane Spellcasting, getting Flat-Footed opponents shouldn't be a problem (Grease, anyone?).
I've always loved the idea of an arcane trickster, but I never seem to get to a high enough level to make one work.
Edit: I also just realized that Magus actually works REALLY well with Arcane Trickster. You could potentially full-attack from a flank (while invisible, of course), get off your melee attacks for sneak attack damage, and then throw down a melee-touch Scorching Ray on top of it, and STILL be able to use a quickened Scorching Ray if need be. Combine with Haste for more fun.
Edit**: Actually, why not use Ninja/Magus/Arcane Trickster? You get the ability to go Invisible without using up spell slots, the nifty Ki pool, and Spell Combat.
Quicken Metamagic. Also, Arcane Tricksters tend to have low BAB, since you're combining a 3/4 bab class with a 1/2 bab class (though with my proposal of Magus/Ninja this is slightly alleviated... SLIGHTLY...). When attacking creatures with high Touch ACs (enemy monks come to mind), it might be beneficial to cast something like Magic Missile which can't miss.
Edit*: After thinking about it, I suppose you're still thinking about the Arcane Trickster ability. Sneak Attack applies to each Ray of Scorching Ray because it's an attack, not because of the Arcane Trickster ability (though it would in that case, too).
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It's still weird from a logical point of view (not balance PoV) that rays get it (since you can pick different targets) on each ray, but not MM.
Not if you stop to think about how there's no die rolls involved with magic missile other than damage. No attack rolls, no miss chances, no saving throws... VERY few damage dealing spells are like this. And as a result the spell needs special attention.
The best option to make things work better, frankly, would be to make magic missiles require an attack roll, allow a save to negate or resist them, or to introduce something like "force resistance" to the game.
The first two would cause too much of an uproar. The third, while viable, would require far too much retconning.
Frankly, I'm fine with the fact that some spells break the rules. The GM just needs to be on his toes when those "rulebreaking" spells show up. That's the GM's job, among other things.
PS: And in this case, I feel 100% confident that I can say that in ALL CASES, you should go to your GM to get a ruling in this situation. Since no PFS character will ever gain this ability.
It's still weird from a logical point of view (not balance PoV) that rays get it (since you can pick different targets) on each ray, but not MM.
Not if you stop to think about how there's no die rolls involved with magic missile other than damage. No attack rolls, no miss chances, no saving throws... VERY few damage dealing spells are like this. And as a result the spell needs special attention.
As I said, it's not the balance PoV that's the issue, I agree it needs to be adjudicated this way for balance.
What I was referring to was a logical versamilatude viewpoint. Other than the fact MM is homing and Scorching Ray isn't, there's not a lot of conceptual difference (I point my finger and multiple bits of magic shoot out and hit what I want them to).
Quicken Metamagic. Also, Arcane Tricksters tend to have low BAB, since you're combining a 3/4 bab class with a 1/2 bab class (though with my proposal of Magus/Ninja this is slightly alleviated... SLIGHTLY...). When attacking creatures with high Touch ACs (enemy monks come to mind), it might be beneficial to cast...Is there an exception to the "only one spell per round ever" rule?If your playing arcane trickster and MISSING with scorching ray, you've built it wrong... there is NO way you miss save on a nat 1Agreed, Scorching Ray is definitely the way to go in regards to Arcane Trickster damage. Since we can count on more touch-range spells being added in Ultimate Magic for the Magus, I'd be willing to bet Arcane Trickster will be able to benefit from it as well.
Along the same vein, though, you could do Quickened Magic Missile/ Normal Magic Missile and still add the sneak attack damage twice to the same creature without missing.
Alternatively, you could do so with Intensified Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and all sorts of other spells to really make them work well. Yeah, it requires that opponents be flat-footed, but with so many stealth options available to a Rogue with Arcane Spellcasting, getting Flat-Footed opponents shouldn't be a problem (Grease, anyone?).
I've always loved the idea of an arcane trickster, but I never seem to get to a high enough level to make one work.
Edit: I also just realized that Magus actually works REALLY well with Arcane Trickster. You could potentially full-attack from a flank (while invisible, of course), get off your melee attacks for sneak attack damage, and then throw down a melee-touch Scorching Ray on top of it, and STILL be able to use a quickened Scorching Ray if need be. Combine with Haste for more fun.
Edit**: Actually, why not use Ninja/Magus/Arcane Trickster? You get the ability to go Invisible without using up spell slots, the nifty Ki pool, and Spell Combat.
Found it:
Cast a Quickened Spell
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.
I was wrong.
Thanks!
Even if it is allowed,
One spell dealing gross damage does not a game break.
If you can do it, so can enemy NPCs. Problem fixed.
High level Pathfinder has some intrinsic issues, but a single spell hack isn't going to vaporize a whole game system.
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James since you are here, can you sneak attack with the hurl ability of telekinesis?
Imagine Perfect Spell Quicken Telekinesis + Telekinesis and you are hurling 30 gargantuan arrows.
That would be 90d6 + 30 x Sneak attack damage.
Med arrows do 1d4 under telekinesis
Large 1d6
Huge 1d8
Collosus 2d6
Gargantuan 3d6.
That's a pretty hard core bit of rules manipulation... but why are you throwing arrows when you could have cast flaming arrow on them? That'd up your damage by another 30d6, after all.
In addition, at the point you're doing 90d6 damage... adding sneak attack damage at that point is pretty much pointless.
In any case, since you're at minimum a 20th level character (rogue 3/wizard 7/arcane trickster 10) in order to pull this off... I'd be fine with that. What would annoy me isn't the damage you're doing, but the fact that you'd be forcing the game to a halt in order to roll that many dice. 30 attack rolls in a round is kinda lame.
If someone pulled this in my game, I'd just ad-hoc it to be an area effect attack that does 20d6 damage to all creatures in the area of effect. Not to reduce the damage, but to speed things up.