[Sinister Adventures] SA Website down, will we ever see the Razor Coast?


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I posted this over at EN World, but thought I'd copy it over here too, as it may be of interest:

I'd just like to add that:

a) I have received a response to my email from Nic.

b) I have received a refund for Ebon Shroud.

c) Nic has said that it is still his intention to release Razor Coast.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Correlation is not causation.

Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there.

Just yesterday I received a refund for the other book. No message though. But I'm still willing to wait for RC. A bit.

Silver Crusade

The Kyngdoms wrote:


c) Nic has said that it is still his intention to release Razor Coast.

:)


Hmmm...just a little suspicious.


Sinvel Menter wrote:
Hmmm...just a little suspicious.

Yeah, I mean, where are the photos of Nick's body?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post. That was unnecessary.


Awesome. It looks as though the old Sinister Adventures website belongs to some outdoor adventure travel place.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sinvel Menter wrote:
Awesome. It looks as though the old Sinister Adventures website belongs to some outdoor adventure travel place.

Sinister indeed.

Dark Archive

Still waiting....


I wonder if we could ever talk Lou into giving us the unformatted document. I mean, we already paid for it, right? ;)

I know, I know...

Grand Lodge

Still wondering if I will ever see my refund.
Another month has passed, well almost passed and stil nothing.
No, Sorry reply, no refund and not even acknowledgement that my requests have been recieved by the ever elusive Nick.

By this time I feel buying anything with his name on it will not happen again and the sad part is I was a fan of his work.

Well.

Grand Lodge

Just a bump so BUMP
Anyone heard anything?
If anyone hears anything from Nic let the rest of us know.

Thanx in advance.

Grand Lodge

Same as previous post
Anything???


Katt De Grey wrote:

Same as previous post

Anything???

Nope not a sound. My players are taking bets on if Skull and Shackles or Razor Coast comes out first. =)


Katt De Grey wrote:

Just a bump so BUMP

Anyone heard anything?
If anyone hears anything from Nic let the rest of us know.

Thanx in advance.

You may find yourself waiting...forever. If you were a particularly enterprising individual, fly to England, find a copy of the unfinished work, and somehow manage to acquire it. Then you would know.

And it's England. You could probably walk to his house from the airport.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
ShadowChemosh wrote:
Katt De Grey wrote:

Same as previous post

Anything???
Nope not a sound. My players are taking bets on if Skull and Shackles or Razor Coast comes out first. =)

At this point my moneys on Skull and Shackles.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
ShadowChemosh wrote:
Katt De Grey wrote:

Same as previous post

Anything???
Nope not a sound. My players are taking bets on if Skull and Shackles or Razor Coast comes out first. =)
At this point my moneys on Skull and Shackles.

Is "neither" one of our options?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dungeon Grrrl wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
ShadowChemosh wrote:
Katt De Grey wrote:

Same as previous post

Anything???
Nope not a sound. My players are taking bets on if Skull and Shackles or Razor Coast comes out first. =)
At this point my moneys on Skull and Shackles.
Is "neither" one of our options?

You don't think Skulls and Shackles is going to come out?

The Exchange

Rocketmail1 wrote:
Katt De Grey wrote:

Just a bump so BUMP

Anyone heard anything?
If anyone hears anything from Nic let the rest of us know.

Thanx in advance.

You may find yourself waiting...forever. If you were a particularly enterprising individual, fly to England, find a copy of the unfinished work, and somehow manage to acquire it. Then you would know.

And it's England. You could probably walk to his house from the airport.

Yeah there's only the one airport in England.

If we reach September when Universities start up again then I think we can all call this dead and that he has no intention of actually finishing it. If he doesn't spend the holidays working on it then he never will and we're just being duped.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Which would be unfortunate :(


Nick, maybe Greg and I can help get this done? Email sent,

Bill Webb, FGG

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
tsathogga wrote:

Nick, maybe Greg and I can help get this done? Email sent,

Bill Webb, FGG

please please please please please...

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DitheringFool wrote:
tsathogga wrote:

Nick, maybe Greg and I can help get this done? Email sent,

Bill Webb, FGG

please please please please please...

I know Bill is trying to contact Nick and I got him in touch with Lou as Lou did a lot or work on RC to get it ready. So will see if anything comes of it. I have my doubts.


Meh. I said I would give Nick until the end of school vacation. That's my line in the sand. After that perhaps a class-action lawsuit. Radavel? Any thoughts?


Dark_Mistress wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
tsathogga wrote:

Nick, maybe Greg and I can help get this done? Email sent,

Bill Webb, FGG

please please please please please...
I know Bill is trying to contact Nick and I got him in touch with Lou as Lou did a lot or work on RC to get it ready. So will see if anything comes of it. I have my doubts.

It makes no sense. Sensibly, if i can't complete a project i look for someone else to finish it for me. In this case, the product is done and the guy is just sitting on it and also telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Coltaine wrote:


It makes no sense.

Maybe its a rather lengthy piece of performance art and we are, unwittingly, merely the audience.


Coltaine wrote:


It makes no sense. Sensibly, if i can't complete a project i look for someone else to finish it for me. In this case, the product is done and the guy is just sitting on it and also telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it.

There's a fairly obvious flaw in your logic. You're expecting someone who has consistently lied about this project to have told the truth about it being done.

Grand Lodge

For my part, I have sent several emails over the past few months and never have received a reply, refund or anything else. Nick, keep my cash. It was money well spent to know never to buy anything with your name on it again. Selling your soul for a few bucks is just never worth it.


Coltaine wrote:
... telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it.

Link? Or email text? I've seen nothing of the sort, simply a lack of communication. Hyperbole does little constructive.

-Ben.


Coltaine wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
tsathogga wrote:

Nick, maybe Greg and I can help get this done? Email sent,

Bill Webb, FGG

please please please please please...
I know Bill is trying to contact Nick and I got him in touch with Lou as Lou did a lot or work on RC to get it ready. So will see if anything comes of it. I have my doubts.
It makes no sense. Sensibly, if i can't complete a project i look for someone else to finish it for me. In this case, the product is done and the guy is just sitting on it and also telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it.

We were never told to shove it. We simply never heard back after we extended an offer of assistance and every publisher who did the same (and I can count 4 now) received the same response.

Also only the manuscript is completed as far as I am aware, as I have not seen any artwork for it beyond the cover image and one map. This would mean initial sketches and final images each with a minimum of one round of corrections.

Even then the product would still need to go to a layout artist, proofing, and back to the layout artist to apply those proofs before it was done.

I am not defending the actions of Sinister Adventures I simply trying to provide accurate details, assuming someone ever did take over or was allowed to assist with the project.

"If you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything"-JMS


terraleon wrote:
Coltaine wrote:
... telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it.

Link? Or email text? I've seen nothing of the sort, simply a lack of communication. Hyperbole does little constructive.

-Ben.

Read through this thread, I believe LPJ and Adamant both offered and got no response from Nick. Lou Argesta spent considerable time finishing the product for free and with little if any feedback from Nick, others chipped in with their time and effort in proofing and editing the adventure; and yes, the product is complete per Lou, other than missing a couple of pieces of art, and he turned the product over to Nick in March if I recall ( some of the proofreaders do have the PDF).

Lou even made Nick the offer i had requested, to provide the paying customers with the completed PDF; this was also ignored/refused by Nick.

The pattern of behavior is clear; ignoring people purposefully for an extended period of time, even those that help you, is much worse than saying "no." It is not a simple "lack" of communication. It is willful lack of communication, something that is vastly different. Alas, most of the "proof" you request might be vaporware as Nick let the sinister adventures website elapse due to non payment, with promise to us of "i am retooling it, and it will be up soon."

As for constructive, it is clear that none of this is constructive as Nick ignores everyone and everything. Perhaps emailing his wife/girlfriend might be "constructive." Her information is all over da webs.


Coltaine wrote:
As for constructive, it is clear that none of this is constructive as Nick ignores everyone and everything. Perhaps emailing his wife/girlfriend might be "constructive." Her information is all over da webs.

I have read. I was the first person to buy anything from Sinister Adventures, and I've watched events here and on the SA website before it ceased operation.

However, what's clear is that he hasn't told anyone to "shove it." Saying so simply fuels animosity unnecessarily.

No one should contact Nick's girlfriend. This is his issue and it would be indecent to involve her. I realize consideration might be in short supply on the internet, but if the preorder cost spent years ago was so crucial, then let me know and hell, *I'll* give you the $30.

-Ben.


Coltaine wrote:
Lou Argesta spent considerable time finishing the product for free and with little if any feedback from Nick, others chipped in with their time and effort in proofing and editing the adventure; and yes, the product is complete per Lou, other than missing a couple of pieces of art, and he turned the product over to Nick in March if I recall ( some of the proofreaders do have the PDF).

Complete is a long way from finished. I don't think it was edited, but converted to Pathfinder. If I'm correct, it's a manuscript which still needs storyboarding, layout, art, and then final proofing. That's a lot of investment. If I'm wrong, and all it needs is art, layout, and proofing, that's slightly less effort.

-Ben.


terraleon wrote:
Coltaine wrote:
As for constructive, it is clear that none of this is constructive as Nick ignores everyone and everything. Perhaps emailing his wife/girlfriend might be "constructive." Her information is all over da webs.

I have read. I was the first person to buy anything from Sinister Adventures, and I've watched events here and on the SA website before it ceased operation.

However, what's clear is that he hasn't told anyone to "shove it." Saying so simply fuels animosity unnecessarily.

No one should contact Nick's girlfriend. This is his issue and it would be indecent to involve her. I realize consideration might be in short supply on the internet, but if the preorder cost spent years ago was so crucial, then let me know and hell, *I'll* give you the $30.

-Ben.

In fact attempting to contact someone not involved AT ALL in this mess could be construed as harassment. Don't do it. You make no friends if you do. Show you are a classier individual. Back off. Let calmer heads prevail and then, perhaps, this will be resolved to the satisfaction of all.


terraleon wrote:
However, what's clear is that he hasn't told anyone to "shove it."

Uhhh...

Coltaine wrote:
In this case, the product is done and the guy is just sitting on it and also telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it

---

terraleon wrote:
Saying so simply fuels animosity unnecessarily.

As does ignoring people and not refunding their money.


terraleon wrote:
but if the preorder cost spent years ago was so crucial, then let me know and hell, *I'll* give you the $30.

Why would you do this? To defend someone increasingly appearing to be a deadbeat, and attempt to minimize legitimate complaints?

As you stated: This is Nick's issue.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rite Publishing wrote:

We were never told to shove it. We simply never heard back after we extended an offer of assistance and every publisher who did the same (and I can count 4 now) received the same response.

Also only the manuscript is completed as far as I am aware, as I have not seen any artwork for it beyond the cover image and one map. This would mean initial sketches and final images each with a minimum of one round of corrections.

Even then the product would still need to go to a layout artist, proofing, and back to the layout artist to apply those proofs before it was done.

I am not defending the actions of Sinister Adventures I simply trying to provide accurate details, assuming someone ever did take over or was allowed to assist with the project.

"If you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything"-JMS

Just to clear something up I know at least 40 something pages of the book is completely done, art and all. Since I have the PDF. It has the finished cover and then place holders for credits and ToC pages. Then has a 40+ page opening chapter that is completely done. I don't know how much the rest of the book is done. But if memory serves before the site went down is that, editing, writing and layout was done for the whole book and it just needed a final go over and some of the art to to finish the book.

This is just a FYI.


Brian E. Harris wrote:
Why would you do this? To defend someone increasingly appearing to be a deadbeat, and attempt to minimize legitimate complaints?

Because I've met and casually worked with Nick on a project, and consider him a friend. I'd like to think he will complete the work, but the vitriol (however justified) probably doesn't help. So I patiently wait.

Projects hit delays, life happens and plans have to change. I will agree that such difficulties don't excuse the lack of communication, but I don't know that something like this thread improves matters.

The book will either get done or it will languish. Ultimately, Nick is the only one with any control over that choice and I can't get spun up on that point because it just wastes my time and energy. If it arrives, great, I have a book I was uncertain I'd read. If it never shows up, then I've paid to learn the lesson that I need to carefully consider a project and the source before buying it sight unseen.

Interestingly, there's at least one other similar situation out there in which I have an investment, and I don't complain about it either. I also don't see any traffic about it, and so I wait.

-Ben.


terraleon wrote:

Complete is a long way from finished. I don't think it was edited, but converted to Pathfinder. If I'm correct, it's a manuscript which still needs storyboarding, layout, art, and then final proofing. That's a lot of investment. If I'm wrong, and all it needs is art, layout, and proofing, that's slightly less effort.

-Ben.

As for contacting his girlfriend, I have no plans to do so and never would do so. It was in response to your comment about a "constructive" course of action. Informing one's significant other, in general, about one's "deadbeat" status has a way of getting stuff acomplished is all. Do you have any "constructive" courses of action?

As for taking the high road, i am already on it. Personally, i have no plans to ask for a refund, nor of e-mailing nick constantly about the product; if it gets done it gets done, if it doesn't i loose $30, no big deal. I like the man and think him a very talented individual and from what i can tell, a person with a good heart, though lacking in sensibility?

I dunno, i guess if someone ignores you and never responds to you, makes promises and continually fails to produce anything, that's not considered to be a rejection of your offer and disengenuous. I'd love to try that out at work, and i heartily recommend that all of you who seem to consider this to be "a lack of communication" try the same with your clients ( please don't, tongue in cheek and all that).

Again, i am simply addressing the lack of sensibility in Nick's actions, not committing hara kiri, or trying to even vent. There are much more important issues to deal with in life, like getting my niece's hooked on fantasy books, and then Pathfinder.:)

Edit: I can confirm what DM stated as well, and if i recall, the layout, most of the art and the finalization was pretty much done by Lou, FOR FREE!


Coltaine wrote:
Do you have any "constructive" courses of action?

Only to get back to work on the deadlines I currently have. They're the projects I have control over completing. :D

-Ben.


terraleon wrote:
The book will either get done or it will languish. Ultimately, Nick is the only one with any control over that choice and I can't get spun up on that point because it just wastes my time and energy.

But you can get spun up on people getting spun up on the book languishing?

That's the part I don't get...

Scarab Sages

Rite Publishing wrote:
We were never told to shove it. We simply never heard back after we extended an offer of assistance and every publisher who did the same (and I can count 4 now) received the same response.

This was my experience as well.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Rite Publishing wrote:
We were never told to shove it. We simply never heard back after we extended an offer of assistance and every publisher who did the same (and I can count 4 now) received the same response.
This was my experience as well.

Sadly I think it is going to be the same response Bill's going to get as well. Hopefully I am wrong, just at this point I just honestly no longer expect it to get finished.

Shadow Lodge

I have no horse in this race, but someone mentioned a class-action lawsuit. If I did have a vested interest, that's the route I'd take at this point, if I wanted a refund. I dunno how the logistics of that are affected by him living in England, though.


Brian E. Harris wrote:


But you can get spun up on people getting spun up on the book languishing?

That's the part I don't get...

No, I saw the need to respond when someone distorted Nick's response by inferring a subtext when (as far as I know) there's simply no message. Or when the suggestion is made to contact a third party with the hope that person will intercede on the project's behalf.

I've not found Nick to be an intentionally malicious guy, and stating he told people to "shove it" merited a request for clarification, as did the suggestion, however casual or flippant, to contact his girlfriend.

The project's delays don't get me spun up. If Nick did tell someone to shove it, I would want to know because it would seem out of character for Nick and might mean there was something more I would want to discover. When someone suggests engaging his girlfriend in an attempt to get the project released, I'm moved to post because she's not a part of this and I don't think it's an appropriate action to take. While I can't prevent such an action, I'd be wrong not to caution against it.

-Ben.


Hence the word "indirectly" that was used.

Whatever. There's really no defense of the guy warranted at this point, especially considering his consistent refusal to respond to people.

Further, such defense actually makes things much worse for those folks that are not content to accept getting the shaft.


terraleon wrote:
No one should contact Nick's girlfriend. This is his issue and it would be indecent to involve her.

Note: I have ZERO invested in this; I have no pre-order. My only interest in the whole situation is that I have enjoyed Nick's writing in the past and wish to see more of it.

That revelation made, I'm sorry, but I disagree. What I'm hearing is that a product is on the brink of completion, pre-orders have been made, and the author is incommunicado to customers and - interestingly - publisher offers to finish the product.

That isn't normal.

To me, that sounds... odd. I can understand a scammer absconding with money. What I can't wrap my head around is that the situation isn't/wasn't a scam. There's a real product. And it's almost done. I'm to understand Nick's just... ignoring anything in his Inbox to do with this product? To get his jollies? It doesn't make sense to me.

To that end, my gut suggests - not demands - that something is wrong.

If I vanished pretty unexpectedly, I'd expect that someone would contact my wife asking what had happened. That is the angle that should be being taken. A prominent author has digitally vanished and isn't even responding to publisher e-mails. Disturbing. THAT should be investigated.

I'd agree nobody with money on the issue should be nagging her, but someone should be asking "is Nick okay because Publisher X, Y, Z have e-mailed him and he's not returning any contact. Is his address still A@B.com or did something change?"

Keep the dirty laundry out of the picture because it's not her problem to fix but by all means find out if there's more to the picture than someone who just suddenly because psychotically introverted.

Drama builds up in an information-vacuum. Context matters. That should be pursued.


Quote:
It makes no sense. Sensibly, if i can't complete a project i look for someone else to finish it for me. In this case, the product is done and the guy is just sitting on it and also telling anyone trying to help him, directly or indirectly, to go shove it.

Terr, you keep going on and on about "shove it," which i said, what part of the "indirectly" as i stated, quoted here, is unclear?

If someone never responds to you, and occasionally stops by with apologies while still not responding to you, how is that any different than saying "shove it?"

Anyway, who i feel horrible about is Louis; quoting him here:

Quote:

"While I have a copy of the manuscript, I don't own it. So ethically and legally, I can't release it. However, I've passed this suggestion on to Nick. I haven't heard anything back from him, but I will continue to follow up. I put a CR*P ton of work into that book -- literally hundreds of hours of writing, editing, art direction, development, etc. -- and I called in a lot of favors from professional freelancers, Werecabbages, and Sinister fans to get it finished. I even have additional material intended for release as a ship-to-ship supplement.

As I've said before, I'm just a hired gun so I can't make promises, I don't control anything, I delivered as hired, but I'm not an official Sinister...well, anything, really.

That said, I can promise that I intend to do everything I can to help Razor Coast become a reality. Ultimately, though, it's out of my hands


Anguish wrote:

That isn't normal.

To me, that sounds... odd. I can understand a scammer absconding with money. What I can't wrap my head around is that the situation isn't/wasn't a scam. There's a real product. And it's almost done. I'm to understand Nick's just... ignoring anything in his Inbox to do with this product? To get his jollies? It doesn't make sense to me.

To that end, my gut suggests - not demands - that something is wrong.

Actually, having been on this end of multiple similar situations, it's pretty normal.

If I were a psychologist or psychiatrist, I could probably explain it better, but, basically, it's a combination of refusal to admit failure/defeat and a fear of confrontation from those you've taken money from and not delivered product to. It starts off with a short delay in responding to people, and cascades quickly into longer and longer delays until it's been so long that everyone gets as pissed off as they have.

Here's my hypothesis, having seen this kind of thing:

He took money on pre-orders.
He got delayed.
He spent some of that money.
He spent more money than he should have, therefore, he no longer has the money he needs to produce the final product.
He thinks he can replace the money by working his day job.
People start getting upset and demanding refunds.
He issues some refunds, further depleting the money required to produce the final product.
At some point, he gets in deep enough that there's not any kind of immediate end in site - not enough money to print, not enough money to provide refunds to everyone.
Ultimately, rather than posting another excuse about the delay (and deal with people's legitimate ire about the situation), he ignores the site.

He may very well have every intention in the world of making things right, but he's just digging himself deeper by not responding to people and being up front about the situation.

Anguish wrote:
If I vanished pretty unexpectedly, I'd expect that someone would contact my wife asking what had happened. That is the angle that should be being taken. A prominent author has digitally vanished and isn't even responding to publisher e-mails. Disturbing. THAT should be investigated.

Thing is, he hasn't vanished "unexpectedly". He's been in a few times with excuses for the delay, and he's now stopped even making excuses. It's pretty much par for the course in this kind of situation.

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