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What you Need:
A divine casting class character who can cast 'Create Water' at will.
Water skin, empty.
3 empty flasks/vials.
25 gold.
Steps:
1. Purchse 1 Scroll of Bless Water.
2. Use Create Water to fill waterskin.
3. Use Bless Water on water in the skin.
4. Empty contents into 3 empty flasks/vials.
5. Sell 3 flasks/vials full of Holy Water for 37.5gp
6. Repeat steps 1 through 6.
I would assume, to keep from breaking the system, as a DM, I should not allow a player to do this for profit.
If a player wanted to do this kind of thing for their personal use, however, instead of just buying 3 flasks of Holy Water, and record it on their character sheet for actual use, should it be allowed?
Thoughts?
Any time an infinite money scheme comes up, and this is not the first the counter is market saturation, and other people(NPC's) being annoyed enough to take action.
I don't know a GM that would let it fly.
It is just like in 3.5 a ladder was half the price of two 10 ft poles so people could in theory break the ladder to get two 10 foot poles, and finding loopholes in the system should not be allowed, IMHO.
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6. Repeat steps 1 through 6.
Sounds boring but whatever floats your boat.
I don't know or care if this will work.
If you and your group enjoy playing accounting games there are about 100 wealth hacks which you can 'exploit'. "Hack the Wealth System" is not the game I want to play and it's not a game which I will indulge players in. They can do it at home without my intervention.
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Thoughts?
I think that working out economic schemes in a game that is designed to simplify economics and only put systems in place to meet the design goal of the game (adventuring) is kinda like your choice of 1) stealing candy from a baby (profitable, but slobbery), or running a lemonade stand across the street from 7 year olds on a hot summer day (your math is probably better, but your only customers are people who don't buy lemonade from a 7 year old).
Edit: The math failure about the price of the scroll just somehow seems fitting for this scheme. :)
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Only 25gp for a 1st level scroll at caster level one.
But it only works on one flask of water, so the loop is broken
Ah yes. I believe Order of the Stick address this sort of gold making scheme here.
More details on Potionomics.
-Pain
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At a cost of 50 gp/scroll, I fully endorse this plan.Also not sure how/why you are getting 3 flasks, Bless Water works on 1 pint of water.
Only 25gp for a 1st level scroll at caster level one.
But it only works on one flask of water, so the loop is broken
Scroll cost is 25gp plus material component cost:
Components V, S, M (5 pounds of powdered silver worth 25 gp)
Edit: rephrased to be less dickish
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At a cost of 50 gp/scroll, I fully endorse this plan.Also not sure how/why you are getting 3 flasks, Bless Water works on 1 pint of water.
Only 25gp for a 1st level scroll at caster level one.
But it only works on one flask of water, so the loop is broken
Plus 25gp material component. It's doubly broken.
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Plus 25gp material component. It's doubly broken.
At a cost of 50 gp/scroll, I fully endorse this plan.Also not sure how/why you are getting 3 flasks, Bless Water works on 1 pint of water.
Only 25gp for a 1st level scroll at caster level one.
But it only works on one flask of water, so the loop is broken
Like I said, as a GM I totally endorse this plan! :)
What might be fun, though, is an evil (or just roguish) cleric NPC who regularly pollutes the local water tables, then rushes in to offer his services to create water, or cleanse the polluted water, for a nominal fee.
Not a campaign-sized plot device, to be sure, but sounds like a fun recurring jerk a party could encounter every-so-often. You know, like Harry Mudd from Star Trek. Always getting out of prison in time to get caught again.
There's also the limiting point that any water created by the spell vanishes without a trace 24 hours later. Repeat customers wouldn't be happening...returning irate customers, most likely.
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Apparently I misread Bless Water several times (maybe I read something else entirely, I dont know) that made me think it would make 3 vials-worth of Holy Water per spell.
That aside, people who are assuming Im wanting people to do this ought to re-read my original post. I am asking if it should be allowed or not, not complaining that ive got to legitimately get gold by adventuring.
Lastly, can someone point me to where it says with a scroll it also costs the expensive spell component cost? All Ive seen is for Scroll creation, not for buying.
Temples already sell holy water at the cost of material component and drop the cost of casting spell. There is no possibility of selling holy water at the same or lower cost and profit, unless one has access to cheap silver, but it would allow to profit just by selling silver.
Also, each casting of bless water creates exactly one flask of holy water. Casting it on waterskin will only bless one point (or depending upon GMs decision will fail outrightly as the waterskin does not match the target of the spell - I would said that it creates one waterskin of water that has exactly the same effectivness as flask of holy water).
The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp. If the scroll has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create.
And in answer to whether or not it should be allowed, I say sure. There's no reason not to. But it's going to cost the PC money unless they're using their own spell slots to cast bless water. And if they're doing that, they're expending resources on it. It's the effective equivalent of another PC using perform or craft to make money during a week of downtime. The bard finds a tavern and plays until the people get bored, the cleric starts selling blessed water to the townspeople until they have enough.
Lastly, can someone point me to where it says with a scroll it also costs the expensive spell component cost? All Ive seen is for Scroll creation, not for buying.
Magic Item creation section contains part:
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
I would let them start the process and, after about the third day of their folly, I would assume that the divine power that grants them the ability to cast such a spell will notice that there is a centralized NEED for holy water in that area.
After sending representatives to explore the situation, several punishments could be performed.
1. The god turns ALL the water in the area to holy water.
2. The god recognizes the abuse and withholds spell casting ability to the user for one week per vial abused.
3. The god gets angry and turns the representatives on the abuser.
4. The god thinks it's funny and makes all of the casters spells produce holy water -- instead of the desired effect.
5. A greater evil finds out that there is a ton of holy water being made and tries to take care of the problem before it gets too bad, destroying a town, driving the characters into hiding for being the cause.
No matter what, the market won't bear it for long.
Abuses will always appear; punishments won't always follow (unless the GM wants it to).
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1. The god turns ALL the water in the area to holy water.
2. The god recognizes the abuse and withholds spell casting ability to the user for one week per vial abused.
3. The god gets angry and turns the representatives on the abuser.
4. The god thinks it's funny and makes all of the casters spells produce holy water -- instead of the desired effect.
5. A greater evil finds out that there is a ton of holy water being made and tries to take care of the problem before it gets too bad, destroying a town, driving the characters into hiding for being the cause.
Gary would be smiling right now.
I could be missing something, but how is this any different than crafting wondrous items or arms & armor and trying to sell them for full market price?
Not to re-rail the topic but since I have a PC with a wand of Bless Water, how does that figure into the equation?
The only "abuse" I see right now with the wand of Bless Water would be going after undead in a limited water scenario. Like a pool or underground cavern. Start using the wand every round until the entire pool of water is one big holy water container, and watch the undead sizzle. Same for the ol' bucket-of-water-above-the-door trick and a werewolf who opens the door...
Say, there's a form of torture: a bucket of holy water and a devilish imp...
My idea for infinite money:
1. Get your character a job
2. Work
3. Get paid
4. Goto 2
Basically this is what you do when you sell products created by your magic, it´s just that you can fullfill these four steps without angering the god you actually worship
(the basic trick is to fullfill the steps without use of a profession skill, there´s no money in skills except for the loot you get by adventuring)
Not to re-rail the topic but since I have a PC with a wand of Bless Water, how does that figure into the equation?
The only "abuse" I see right now with the wand of Bless Water would be going after undead in a limited water scenario. Like a pool or underground cavern. Start using the wand every round until the entire pool of water is one big holy water container, and watch the undead sizzle. Same for the ol' bucket-of-water-above-the-door trick and a werewolf who opens the door...
Say, there's a form of torture: a bucket of holy water and a devilish imp...
Same deal. The material component's value must be added to the wand per charge, meaning a wand of bless water with 50 charges costs 750 + (50 * 25 = 1,250 gp) = 2,000 gp. Nearly as bad, though you are saving some money with the wand over the scrolls, because the wand is 12.5 gp per charge, while the scroll is 25 gp per charge; possibly helping.
However, at this point, you might as well make a holy water machine by creating a blessed bowl that creates holy water five times per day. The price would be 5,500 gp (2,000 base cost plus 25 gp * 100 for unlimited use), which could produce 1 flask of holy water once every minute if you are supplying the water. Purchase a decanter of endless water. Profit?
Of course, you could also just cast wall of stone and Fabricate to craft art objects instantly. Art objects are considered trade goods, so you can essentially make money out of thin air in this case.
That Being Said
I ended up with a group that more or less gained the ability to make infinite money in about 12 different ways. I had a talk with them about what it would mean for the game, and explained that if they wanted to go that route, I as the GM would not disallow it, but that it would definitely mean the game would have to take a different change of pace. For balance reasons, they would be crafting their own magic items and the like, with the exception of minor things that are more or less freely available (no purchasing 20 +5 holy avengers, etc).
So, they decided they were cool with that. They ended up with pretty much infinite money which drew attention off getting treasure. I would actually say that in some ways the game actually improved. The party decided to do things like build an airship, fly around the world, open a school, build a castle in a haunted forest, and so on and so forth. In some ways, not worrying about gold can be a good thing. However, it means much will change, and it takes emphasis off gaining treasure.
So make of that what you will.
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That aside, people who are assuming Im wanting people to do this ought to re-read my original post. I am asking if it should be allowed or not, not complaining that ive got to legitimately get gold by adventuring.
Infinite money from spellcasting/ crafting hacks is a tired topic, very much beaten to death. I've seen similar threads to this regarding tons of spells and it just gets old after a while. There are ways to do it (though not in PFS) but it's not the point of the game.
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Create Water
School conjuration (creation) [water]; Level cleric 0, druid 0, paladin 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect up to 2 gallons of water/level
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles. This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed.
Note: Conjuration spells can't create substances or objects within a creature. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds.
I don't think that converting created water into holy water consumes it, so your holy water goes away after 1 day. Not very "good" to sell people something that you know will disappear in 24 hours.
Want a money making scheme?
1. Be a rogue
2. Find rich dude
3. Rob him
4. Profit
5. Go to 2
/trollface
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Hang decanter of endless water above sphere of annihilation. Install paddle wheel. INFINITE ENERGY! Problem, medieval magical technology? :D
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That aside, people who are assuming Im wanting people to do this ought to re-read my original post. I am asking if it should be allowed or not, not complaining that ive got to legitimately get gold by adventuring.Infinite money from spellcasting/ crafting hacks is a tired topic, very much beaten to death. I've seen similar threads to this regarding tons of spells and it just gets old after a while. There are ways to do it (though not in PFS) but it's not the point of the game.
And again, I wasnt trying to create a way of breaking the system, and I understand its not the point of the game. I thought I had come across something, and was looking for the offical stance on 'what I should do or rule I should quote or whatever I need to disallow something like this (except apparently I discovered something that doesnt work like I thought).
Now that Ive seen you, and I think someone else in here suggest its the same with crafting magical items, ive got the answer I was looking for. Thank you! ;)
Just a thought about this: in the medieval era, there were guilds which strictly regulated any and all parts of commerce. Doing a venture outside those guilds was deemed illegal and the city guard could be called by the guildmasters to throw the offenders to jail (and confiscate their products).
If no such guild exist in your world, feel free to use the capitalistic views offered above: concurrence will crop up, market will dry up, etc.
The main problem with infinite money loops...is the law of supply and demand. Eventualy you will lower the prices to nothing for the item. That is why these schemes don't work. Especialy when other start doing it too.
You will also anger very rich men if you mess with thier trade...they will be most unhappy.
I know a player who like finding out way s to do this...but he also undersatood economics enough to knbow what would happen when you do this kinda of thing.
I know you understand that the above will never work...but really all the schemes will not work.
The most disturbing scheme like this I have see is Wall of Stone....Stone to Flesh...instant meat. That failed when it was revealed where exactly he was getting this meat.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The most disturbing scheme like this I have see is Wall of Stone....Stone to Flesh...instant meat. That failed when it was revealed where exactly he was getting this meat.
Yummy!
After reading the spell, why a cylinder? I have this disturbing image of some cleric with the Lust subdomain getting a wizard thrall and going crazy with any architecture involving columns...
The most disturbing scheme like this I have see is Wall of Stone....Stone to Flesh...instant meat. That failed when it was revealed where exactly he was getting this meat.
Now that is just a beautiful and horrific idea.
My personal preference for a money scheme is using a mirror of opposition - which although it require a lot of starting cash and preparation is abusable.
Take a zombie kobold under your control, stack him up with costly magic items (but for a zombie kobold useless, so no magic weapons).
Let the zombie be copied in the mirror of opposition, and let the to engage in an endless battle, as they are unable to harm eachother.
Strip both of them of their magic items and employ a low level cleric to use channel negative energy in the rare event that they manage to crit and roll 6 on 2d6.
Repeat by moving all the items to another zombie, who you then copy.
By the end of the day, you are going have a steady flow of perfectly good magic items to sell. You can even circumvent the problematic of overflooding the market, as you just produce whatever item is needed at the moment.
Abusive? Yes. Can and should any GM do something to stop you? Definately. But RAW-wise, it should be valid, even if nothing more than a theoretical example.
Edit: Just noticed that it isn't fool-proof as zombies get a slam attack for one size larger than they are. Instead use young kobold for the zombies, and their attacks are going to be as low as 1d3-2. This even removes the need for a cleric.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Edit: Just noticed that it isn't fool-proof as zombies get a slam attack for one size larger than they are. Instead use young kobold for the zombies, and their attacks are going to be as low as 1d3-2. This even removes the need for a cleric.
But then it would be tiny and who wants to buy that much tiny gear?
Edit: Just noticed that it isn't fool-proof as zombies get a slam attack for one size larger than they are. Instead use young kobold for the zombies, and their attacks are going to be as low as 1d3-2. This even removes the need for a cleric.But then it would be tiny and who wants to buy that much tiny gear?
Well apart from weapons and armor, all magic items refit to the size of the wearer, so that shouldn't be a big issue.
Edit: Or more simply, just throw a bag of holding filled with magical goodies on him, and you are set to go.
Equipm it with things that are described as resizing to the wearer.
I forget. Does the astral projection method of copying still work? You just APed to the astral plane (your body and items remain on the material plane), then you go from the astral plane to another plane (your body and items on the AP become physical again, creating copies), which can be as simple as plane-shifting back to the material.
/facepalm
I removed an offensive post.
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The most disturbing scheme like this I have see is Wall of Stone....Stone to Flesh...instant meat. That failed when it was revealed where exactly he was getting this meat.
Why did it fail again? I'm sure the hippies (druids) wouldn't mind since it's meat without murder. Then there's the rest of us who don't care as long as it's meat.
Oh sure I might complain if I break a tooth on a pebble while eating, but I'm under the impression that's not likely.
The most disturbing scheme like this I have see is Wall of Stone....Stone to Flesh...instant meat. That failed when it was revealed where exactly he was getting this meat.Why did it fail again? I'm sure the hippies (druids) wouldn't mind since it's meat without murder. Then there's the rest of us who don't care as long as it's meat.
Oh sure I might complain if I break a tooth on a pebble while eating, but I'm under the impression that's not likely.
There was a great PR campaign by the the guilds who it effected. In which they revealed the truth( which would turn off atleast rich people who would 'real' meat...), also some lies about anti-magic fields and reverting the meat back to stone( how many people would actualy know it does not work that way?). Pretty much the pulled what we see big bussiness do in our world all the time when some one comes up with a innovative idea that will hrt their bussiness. And ultimately they hired a NPC bard to spread this...only the really poor were buying the meat...and they really couldn't afford to much.
There was a great PR campaign by the the guilds who it effected. In which they revealed the truth( which would turn off atleast rich people who would 'real' meat...), also some lies about anti-magic fields and reverting the meat back to stone( how many people would actualy know it does not work that way?). Pretty much the pulled what we see big bussiness do in our world all the time when some one comes up with a innovative idea that will hrt their bussiness. And ultimately they hired a NPC bard to spread this...only the really poor were buying the meat...and they really couldn't afford to much.
That's where you start giving meat away as samples. Tons and tons of it. I mean, wall of stone + stone to flesh has got to produce a crapload of meat. Market that junk like spam. Make it convenient to buy. Make it cheaper. Sell it in places where raising animals is rather difficult. Hire your own bards for marketing purposes. If you're into more nefarious acts, screw up the competition by sneaking in a few plague zombies into their herds, and next thing you know you have zombie cows. How many people do you think would rather have "vegan meat-wall" vs "zombie cow"? :P
Then again, you could pull some Tippyverse stuff and just make a resetting trap that casts create food whenever someone steps on a pressure plate. ^-^
There was a great PR campaign by the the guilds who it effected. In which they revealed the truth( which would turn off atleast rich people who would 'real' meat...), also some lies about anti-magic fields and reverting the meat back to stone( how many people would actualy know it does not work that way?). Pretty much the pulled what we see big bussiness do in our world all the time when some one comes up with a innovative idea that will hrt their bussiness. And ultimately they hired a NPC bard to spread this...only the really poor were buying the meat...and they really couldn't afford to much.That's where you start giving meat away as samples. Tons and tons of it. I mean, wall of stone + stone to flesh has got to produce a crapload of meat. Market that junk like spam. Make it convenient to buy. Make it cheaper. Sell it in places where raising animals is rather difficult. Hire your own bards for marketing purposes. If you're into more nefarious acts, screw up the competition by sneaking in a few plague zombies into their herds, and next thing you know you have zombie cows. How many people do you think would rather have "vegan meat-wall" vs "zombie cow"? :P
Then again, you could pull some Tippyverse stuff and just make a resetting trap that casts create food whenever someone steps on a pressure plate. ^-^
All of it would of worked...but the players were just interested in fast money w/ little work. So they did not pursue it. I am generally allow my players to do as they will but with consequences(sometimes good sometimes bad). I was set for running the meat wars campaign. But it was with some new players...and it really takes sometime for new players to understand my game has no rails...I think they thought I was just being creative in saying "No".
Though I have to say...the whole plague zombie act probably would have been frowned on by the good PCs in the group. Also local good churches and druids would have reacted to such a plan.
Though I have to say...the whole plague zombie act probably would have been frowned on by the good PCs in the group. Also local good churches and druids would have...
Well I did say "nefarious". It would just be a spiteful way of getting back at those cattle barons who decided to ruin your business's good name. It would also depend heavily on which lore you were using for the zombies. Pre-PF zombies aren't really killing machines because they just stand around waiting for orders. Even the PF zombies contradict their behavior in their own description (it notes they can do little more than follow orders, then in the next sentence says that when left unattended willingly hunt down living creatures to slaughter and devour; which makes 0% sense).
So if you're not using the "zombies slaughter everything despite being unthinking automatons that are incapable of taking actions of their own accord" fluff for them, then you would just dump a few plague zombies into the herd, give the plague zombie orders to poke the other cows occasionally so they can get the zombie plague; then a few weeks later the cattle barons go to drive the cattle and find a bunch of undead cattle just standing around lookin' stupid. At this point, they're probably not getting those cattle moved without the help of a cleric or three.
:P