Summoners Broken?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Any other than myself that thinks this class is just way to powerfull? Im atm playing a level 4 with a biped eidolon and have tryed to play it a bit differend that most normaly would.

I will have my eidolon be my main damage, use my spells for support and use a bow from a safe distance

My stats support this build of couse.. used 25point giving me

str 15 (+1 from level 4)
dex 18 (+2 from race, elf)
con 11
int 9
wis 6
cha 16

My eidolon have the following evolutions:
1 point - Improved natural armor
1 point - Magic attack
1 point - Bite
3 point - 3xTentacle
1 point - Resistance fire

Feat
1 feat: Instead using 4 point for weapon training evolution to use most weapons i used the feat for martial weapon proficiensy (greatsword)
2 feat: multi attack

For my character i have 2 feat
bow proficiensy is free (race elf)
1 feat: point blank shot
2 feat: rapid shot

Important Gear
Eidolon: Mithral Shirt (dont need proficinsy becouse it have no armor check penalty)
Cold iron greatsword

Summoner: Comp longbow of frost+1

conclusion.
with this build i get the following attacks
2x1d8+1d6+4 from rapidshot
2d6+4
1d6+1
3x1d4+1

giving me a total max dam of 74 from 7 attacks?!?!?! and when i hit level 5 my eidolons natural attacks can gain energy attacks that will boost the damage with 4d6, and if i dont think thats high i can just summon some stuff to help me out

as for ac my eidolon have 22 that can be boosted to 26 with the shield spell, witch is not the bedst but its at the high end

but 74 damage from a level 4 when none is critical that just overpowered or what is your thoughs on this?

Silver Crusade

Here we go again...


Bue wrote:

Any other than myself that thinks this class is just way to powerfull? Im atm playing a level 4 with a biped eidolon and have tryed to play it a bit differend that most normaly would.

No, not really. I'm certain you're build is borked. Let me look it over.

Bue wrote:


My eidolon have the following evolutions:
1 point - Improved natural armor
1 point - Magic attack
1 point - Bite
3 point - 3xTentacle
1 point - Resistance fire

Good so far.

Bue wrote:


Feat
1 feat: Instead using 4 point for weapon training evolution to use most weapons i used the feat for martial weapon proficiensy (greatsword)
2 feat: multi attack

Fine here as well, although he get's multiattack free in a few levels.

Bue wrote:


For my character i have 2 feat
bow proficiensy is free (race elf)
1 feat: point blank shot
2 feat: rapid shot

Fine here as well. Looks like you're not going spellcaster though, you're going backup artillery. Nothing wrong with that, but you're not a caster, you're a martial at that point.

Bue wrote:


Important Gear
Eidolon: Mithral Shirt (dont need proficinsy becouse it have no armor check penalty)
Cold iron greatsword

And here we have borkedness. You cannot put a mithral shirt on the eidelon. First of all, a 3 tentacled thing is not going to be able to wear a mithral shirt in all likelyhood. Even if he could the eidelon is specifically prohibited from wearing armor of any kind.

The greatsword is ok

Bue wrote:


Summoner: Comp longbow of frost+1

conclusion.
with this build i get the following attacks
2x1d8+1d6+4 from rapidshot
2d6+4
1d6+1
3x1d4+1

It's very hard to tell what you're doing, since you have them all mixed up there. However, it appears the first one is the summoner firing? So 2 x (1d8+1d6+4), so Composite +3 bow? Sounds not broken for the level.

One weapon and 4 natural attacks? With the natural attacks all at -2?

Bue wrote:


giving me a total max dam of 74 from 7 attacks?!?!?! and when i hit level 5 my eidolons natural attacks can gain energy attacks that will boost the damage with 4d6, and if i dont think thats high i can just summon some stuff to help me out

as for ac my eidolon have 22 that can be boosted to 26 with the shield spell, witch is not the bedst but its at the high end

but 74 damage from a level 4 when none is critical that just overpowered or what is your thoughs on this?

So, if they all hit, max damage of 74 from 7 attacks. Yep, that sounds right. Doesn't sound all that broken to me either. You could do pretty much the same thing with an elven druid and the same build, give him a tiger companion. The tiger companion would be able to wear the chain barding, unlike the eidelon.


FallofCamelot wrote:
Here we go again...

Seriously... No, it's not broken. But, if you and your DM feel that it may be then stop playing it. Roll up something else and have fun!


The summoner does seem a bit over powered at level 4 but that is short lived but that goes away. At least that's what we noticed. At level 4 the ACs of monsters we fought were still low so the Edilon hit all the time inflicting a lot damage. We are level 8 now and while the Edilon is tough but it doesn't hit nearly as often but with a little luck does some insane damage. My Inquisitor in the game can do the same though with less attacks.

If the Edilon seems too over the top go over you build again. Chances are you messed up somewhere. I can see right away you have 5 attacks when your max is 4 attacks. You don't get 5 attacks till 9th level.


voska66 wrote:

The summoner does seem a bit over powered at level 4 but that is short lived but that goes away. At least that's what we noticed. At level 4 the ACs of monsters we fought were still low so the Edilon hit all the time inflicting a lot damage. We are level 8 now and while the Edilon is tough but it doesn't hit nearly as often but with a little luck does some insane damage. My Inquisitor in the game can do the same though with less attacks.

If the Edilon seems too over the top go over you build again. Chances are you messed up somewhere. I can see right away you have 5 attacks when your max is 4 attacks. You don't get 5 attacks till 9th level.

He's using manufactured weapon attacks, which the Devs left in as a loophole. So, he's making one weapon attack (arms) and then 4 natural attacks as secondary attacks (bite + 3 tentacles).

EDIT : He's also counting both the summoner and eidelon in the attacks. Average damage would be :

Summoner : 24
Eidelon Sword : 18
Eidelon Bite : 5
Eidelon Tentacles : 10

So average damage, if all attacks hit, is 57hp. Impressive, but he can't sustain it. The summoner has 1/2 BAB, and the Eidelon the equivalent of 3/4, so he's going to basically going to fall behind rapidly over the next few levels on the to-hit %'s. Especially mixing weapon and natural attacks due to the secondary attack penalties.

Liberty's Edge

How do you have a +2 weapon at level 4? A +1 frost weapon is a (+1 +1 = +2) weapon, which costs 8,000 gold.

A 4th level character has only 6,000 gold.

Even if you've made the (apparently disturbingly common) Newbie Mistake of assuming +1 frost is only 4,000 gold (it's not, btw), you cannot spend more than 1/4th your wealth on a single item. I can see a GM waiving that at low levels, but since that's a House Rule you should mention it in your post.

***

Weapon aside, your math is wrong.

Well, maybe not wrong, exactly - I haven't tried to check it yet - but it's definitely incomplete. What is the attack bonus on each of your eidolon's attacks? What is the attack bonus of each of your attacks? What about the -4 penalty he's got on most of his attacks (firing into melee - no precise shot feat)? What about your eidolon's AC?

Now, what's the attack bonus, average damage, and AC of a Fighter 4 with a +1 greatsword and +1 fullplate? (off the top of my head: AC = 22-24, attack = +11 or +9 with power attack, damage = 2d6+8, 2d6+14 with power attack; the numbers should probably be higher than that).

Most important question: Even if we assume that the Fighter is a complete moron and ignores your frail little form, wailing on the eidolon instead, who wins?

EDIT: triple ninja'd. ouch.


BobChuck wrote:

How do you have a +2 weapon at level 4? A +1 frost weapon is a (+1 +1 = +2) weapon, which costs 8,000 gold.

A 4th level character has only 6,000 gold.

I'd guess his GM has run from 1st, and been extremely generous and they're currently at WBL 7 or 8. That's my assumption, especially with the mithral chain shirt.


thx alot mdt for the great responce :)

first of all the
2x1d8+1d6+4 damage is from my comp longbow of frost +1 the 1d8 is weapon damage the 1d6 is cols damage the +4 is 1 from the +1 on the bow +1 from point blank shot and +2 from str

and did not see that the eidolon maj not wear armor... my bad :D

and yea at level 4 max attacks is 4 but its not counting weapon attacks and im using my weapon as primary attack and all my natural attacks as secondary giving them a -2

as for the bab bouth the eidolon and the summoner have 3/4.. bab 15 at level 20

and for the gear he dont have better that rest of the group. "legasy of fire" yes its for 3.5 but we playing it as pathfinder


Bue wrote:
Any other than myself that thinks this class is just way to powerfull?

A decent number of people feel the class is too powerful. They are wrong and tend to make knee-jerk reactions and more often than not either blatantly get the rules wrong or bend them severely.

For example how do you have a 8600gp bow at 4th level? Not to mention that you're looking at a -1 (3BAB 4DEX 1PBS 1Magic -4melee -4cover -2rapid shot) chance to hit most of the time and saying that you are hitting with it not once but both times in the round.

-James


Bue wrote:

thx alot mdt for the great responce :)

first of all the
2x1d8+1d6+4 damage is from my comp longbow of frost +1 the 1d8 is weapon damage the 1d6 is cols damage the +4 is 1 from the +1 on the bow +1 from point blank shot and +2 from str

and did not see that the eidolon maj not wear armor... my bad :D

and yea at level 4 max attacks is 4 but its not counting weapon attacks and im using my weapon as primary attack and all my natural attacks as secondary giving them a -2

No problem. Please note though, that you are, as far as I can tell, about 3 or 4 levels above WBL (Wealth By Level) curve. You've got at least 11 thousand GP worth of equipment listed above, and I'm sure that's not all you have. That means you have equipment equivalent to a level 6 or 7 character! Even higher if you follow the 25% to weapons rule. That has a HUGE impact on what you're 'overpowered' combo can do. A huge chunk, if you check above, of your damage is that 8K bow, which is more than you should have TOTAL for the level.


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FallofCamelot wrote:
Here we go again...

Please keep all arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times...

But the Eidolon and the entire Summoner class need to be overhauled. When you have to start making unique, specific, and nonsensical rules to attempt to balance the class, something went wrong.


Cartigan wrote:
When you have to start making unique, specific, and nonsensical rules to attempt to balance the class, something went wrong.

And when I have to agree with Cartigan things have gone *way* too far.

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
When you have to start making unique, specific, and nonsensical rules to attempt to balance the class, something went wrong.

And when I have to agree with Cartigan things have gone *way* too far.

-James

The class needs some rewording and clarification, but it's not that bad.

People just make lots of mistakes with it, because it's hard to follow. The underlying mechanics are sound.

I'm still curious - can this walking tentacle monster with worthless artillery backup take a level 4 Fighter with a Greatsword, assuming the Fighter is Big and Stupid and goes after the eidolon first? I don't think it can.


james maissen wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
When you have to start making unique, specific, and nonsensical rules to attempt to balance the class, something went wrong.

And when I have to agree with Cartigan things have gone *way* too far.

-James

Let's hope for a simplified Summoner Archetype in Ultimate Magic!

Seriously, this class seems "cursed" somehow. I told to one of my players, who wanted to play a Summoner, that she needed to read the prerequisites for every evolutions very carefully before taking them. Of course, when she came to the next game, her Eidolon had an evolution that he wasn't supposed to have. :\


i really love these "oh the eidolon is broken" posts, first of all if you count your average damage on both eidolon and you, i doubt its much higher than a fighters. The eidolon really hasnt that much +hit at this point especially with all those secondary natural attacks.

But still, the main laugh in these posts, is that fact that the only people that seem to complain, are the poeple that goes for the "manufactored weapons isnt counted in the description, and thus can be used". That argument while true according to RAW, has been frequently adressed at these forums, and even by jason himself if i dont remember wrong. Its a loophole in the rules and a mistake from paizo that it works, they have said for the past 6 months or so that they intend to fix it, ei. its not ment to be allowed. So if you really deal more damage than everyone else, i think you kinda have your answer right there, its a very big hole in the rules that hasnt been fixed, yet.


Eidolon would be a lot better if they cut out all the unique rules that they created to try and balance the Summoner/Eidolon and bumped Limbs up to a 4 pt evolution. That last bit would solve 90% of the "Eidolons are broken!" threads. You know why Eidolons are broken (or look that way)? Because they can sprout arms like a damn hydra and get a million attacks.


The Eidolon would be much easier to work with and not screw up if he functioned in a manner similar to to the XPH astral construct. Make x iterations of basic scores that are modified by a small number of custom features and viola it becomes much easier to DM.


Cartigan wrote:
Eidolon would be a lot better if they cut out all the unique rules that they created to try and balance the Summoner/Eidolon and bumped Limbs up to a 4 pt evolution. That last bit would solve 90% of the "Eidolons are broken!" threads. You know why Eidolons are broken (or look that way)? Because they can sprout arms like a damn hydra and get a million attacks.

Yup, and by doing this, they're slowing down the game to a crawl (like if controlling two characters was not enough to handle for one player). Beside, because of this, the only thing in what the eidolon seems to be good is offense. There's not enough evolutions that upgrade your defense, give spell-like/supernatural abilities or let you be effective with a single attack per round.


and just for bobchuck, im making this mock combat.

fighter level 4: 20 str and 14 con 12 dex, +9 hit (4bab, 5str, 1 wp, 1 wpfocus, -2 pa) for 2d6 + 1d6 + 14 dam = 24.5 on a hit. (he uses a frost greatsword)
He has 39 hp. and a 22 ac. +1 fullplate, and +1 nat armor amulet, and he still have gold left compared to the summoner.

Here is the summoner 26 hp ac 17 4 from dex 3 from armor (assuming) he can attack with his bow and hit for +3/+3 (assuming no cover for the fighter) and deal 1d8 +1d6 + 4 = 12 average.

The eidolon has 17 str con 13 dex 13. has 19 ac (+4 nat +1 dex +4 shield buff) and 20 hp, has attacks of +6 hit 2d6 + 4 = 11, +4 hit 1d6 +1 = 4.5 and +4/+4/+4 hit for 1d4 + 1 = 3.5

assuming the fighter is stupid, starting next to the eidolon, even letting the summoner start and be within 30 feet of the fighter so to get pointblank.

Turn 1: the eidolon attacks the fighter dealing (needing 16 then 18 to hit and discounting crits, they are annoying to calculate in) 0.25*11+0.15*4.5+(0.15*3.5)*3 = 5 damage (the fighter has 34 hp left) then the summoner shoots dealing 0.10*2*12 = 2.4 (fighter now has 31.6 hp left)
The its the fighters turn hitting the eidolon (he is the dumb fighter) for average (needing 10+ to hit) 0.55*24.5 = 13.475 (eidolon has 6.525 hp left)
Turn 2: Same average from both sides, summoner and eidolon give the fighter a total of 7.4 dam (he has 24.2 left) and the fighter drops the eidolon.
Turn 3: the summoner can now use summon monster 2 (sucks hard) but chooses to shoot instead, now hitting for +7/+7 which equals to 0.3*12 = 3.6 dam (leaving the fighter with 20.6 hp left)
The fighter now charges the summoner hitting for +11 due to charge vs ac 17 thats 0.75*24.5 = 18.375 dam (the summoner is now down to 7.625 hp left)
Turn 4: the summoner wishes for a miracle, takes a 5 foot step back and shoots dealing another 3.6 dam (fighter has 17 left), the fighter steps up and deals 0.65*24.5 = 15.925 dam (sending the summoner unconscious and close to dying)
Turn 5: The fighter raises his arms and scream who's your daddy.

Factoring in crits im pretty sure the fighter would win even more, and even with the sommoner buffed with the shield spell too he cant do much vs the fighter alone. So game goes to the fighter. Still think its OP?


would have been much more equal if they actually both had wbl of level 4, but im pretty sure the fighter would still creep out in front. But if the summoner can get for 11k equipment, then the fighter can too.

Liberty's Edge

Awesome. Thank you very much.


I believe the summoner IS BROKEN.

and it is strictly a numbers issue, has nothing to do with an edion.

they get to cast around 10-15 9th level spells a day.

Summon monster9 since it has been FIXED is a 9th level spell.

so a summoner can summon 10-15 astral divas a day. If you don't think that is that much think of this... how much (not just in combat) can that character do????

the summoner can literally outcast every casting class.

second point. the spell list.

bards certain spells early..usually a spell is decreased by one level, to allow a bard to obtain a spell a few levels behind the full casting classes.

With the summoner not so. Spell turning as a 5th level spell?? no problem...my argument is not that it gets it as a lower spell level, its the level of the spell.6th level?? much better.... Edvard Tenticals 3rd?? OK no problem but honestly why??? they are SUMMONERS not conjurers. I really think the spell list needs to be re-evaluated. TBH I do not know any other class that jumps spell levels so fast.

at the end of the day i like spell turning to be a 7th level spell. It makes it special.

and hey, if we need a solution we can just cast summon monster and have the monster cast something for us.

Its not broken because of its "damage output" wizards suck at damage output. its about all the other crap it does. AND THEN SOME


i actually made a mistake, in turn 3 and 4 the summoner deals 7.2 dam per round, not 3.6, so the fighter would end at 9.8 hp not 17. although he would still win.

I completely agree that the summoner is a fantastic class, what makes no sense to me, is that he pretty much shouldnt be using any eidolon past about level 9. becouse of the huge amount of summon monsters. he is very very good.

But my other point was to show that that specific build isnt OP, and that the eidolon isnt fantastic in and of itself

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

mdt wrote:
So, if they all hit, max damage of 74 from 7 attacks

Especially since an optimized Archer would do more damage.


Yeah, the Summon Monster ability annoys me a little. At low-level it is useless but at mid-level it begins to be really good. Does that make the Summoner better than the Druid? I don't think so, but it does put him in the higher tier. Anyway, when you have to compare a class to the freaking Druid to see if it's not overpowered, it means that it's a bad ass class, overpowered or not.


Cartigan wrote:
Eidolon would be a lot better if they cut out all the unique rules that they created to try and balance the Summoner/Eidolon and bumped Limbs up to a 4 pt evolution. That last bit would solve 90% of the "Eidolons are broken!" threads. You know why Eidolons are broken (or look that way)? Because they can sprout arms like a damn hydra and get a million attacks.

Simply limiting the arms evolution to a given number would work wonders.

But the premise of having 'create a monster' on a strictly point based scheme is ludicrous.

Make up an eidolon progression where they choose between certain advancements rather than a point buy where something like gills will compete with another attack.

The summoner class is badly designed as they patched the hell out of it with special rules to the extent that no one knows what normal rules should apply to them and which should not.

-James


Thx for doing a calculation for a fight vs a fighter nicklas... some things are off tho..
first with a bow and other facts that i allready statet a summoner has +6 +6 with rapid shot

a eidolon using greatsword and with 4 natural attacs has +6 with greatsword and +4 +4 +4 +4 with nartural

furtermore a summoner kan "soke" the damage a eidolin takes when it would otherwise die


my summoner that just died was specced for mounted combat. I found my mount was going down and at lvl 9 I just didn't care. if I had specced for spell casting rather than the mount thing I'd have been a monster. self buffed 30 ac air elementals are practically like shooting nooks in a barrel and now I get summons that cast lightning bolts?

pretty sure ia conjugation focused char could have completely controlled the battlefield. it's why always laught when people whine about not being able to have eidolon out with the sla. fact is the eidolon is pretty much Oreos net though it has it's uses.


Bue wrote:
and if i dont think thats high i can just summon some stuff to help me out

Just pointing out a mistake the summoner in my game was making.

1) You can't summon monsters while youe eidolon is active.

2) You have to dismiss it first which is a standard action.

He was having the eidolon taking a full attack action and than summoning monsters(dismissing the eidolon) and having them attack. That is a which I think bends the rules alot.

But I hate summoners for one reason....because it is so very boring playing with one in the group. I don't mind pets as much as hey Bob now has 10 actions to go though on his turn...boring. This by the way stems from just summons spells...back in 3rd ed days not just the summoner class.

Liberty's Edge

Bue wrote:

Thx for doing a calculation for a fight vs a fighter nicklas... some things are off tho..

first with a bow and other facts that i allready statet a summoner has +6 +6 with rapid shot

You do not have the Precise Shot feat, thus you suffer a -4 penalty on all attacks made into melee combat. There is also an additional -4 penalty from soft cover that you may or may not have had to deal with. So it's really +3/+3, which is what he used, or -1/-1, if your eidolon is in the way.

Quote:
a eidolon using greatsword and with 4 natural attacs has +6 with greatsword and +4 +4 +4 +4 with nartural

Which is precisely what he used, only without spelling errors.

As an aside: Seriously, both Firefox and Explorer have built-in spell-checkers. Presentation matters. "attacs"? "kan"? At least try, please.

Quote:
furtermore a summoner kan "soke" the damage a eidolin takes when it would otherwise die

Right, once. The Fighter was several rounds from dropping.


Bue wrote:

Thx for doing a calculation for a fight vs a fighter nicklas... some things are off tho..

first with a bow and other facts that i allready statet a summoner has +6 +6 with rapid shot

a eidolon using greatsword and with 4 natural attacs has +6 with greatsword and +4 +4 +4 +4 with nartural

furtermore a summoner kan "soke" the damage a eidolin takes when it would otherwise die

A few things here:

1. The summoner was firing into melee, and thus had a -4 to hit. He also put him within point blank rage so that he got a +1 to hit. These were factored into to achieve the +3 to hit that he used.

2. In other circumstances its quite reasonable that your summoner would also have to deal with soft cover on his shots, this would be yet another -4 to hit for him.

3. The fighter wasn't even well done out in the example. Give the fighter furious focus for example and he doesn't suffer the PA to hit.. Moreover as the poster said, this is having the fighter go after the eidolon rather than the archer...

4. The eidolon was not killed, rather it was dropped to around -7 hps. The ability isn't as great as you'd otherwise think it would be at first glance. (The word is 'soak' btw). Only had the damage been enough to drop it to -CON in hps could this ability be used (and even then the ability is not worded correctly as you cannot use free actions outside of your own turn).

5. You are right that he missed a bonus for your eidolon's main attack, so it's off by a point. The fighter could just as easily had a 13DEX and the dodge feat to make that more than a wash, or with the amount of cash you have also had a ring of protection +1.

6. This brings up that other issue: you have an insane amount of equipment here. From my count, just from what you've mentioned you have over double the expected wealth for your level. A 1st level wizard with a wand of fireballs is overpowered without using anything but that wand..

-James


first things first, i appologise for my spelling. firefox is currently on danish settings and i cant seem to find a way to change it, anyone knows how?

As stated in the example i didnt want the fighter to be uber optimized, and it was only a fast sketch at what would happen, the important thing is that the fighter still won, and he can easily be better, the OP asked if his build was breaking the game, i concluded it didnt.

Btw the summoner had +4 dex +3 bab +1 pointblank +1 magic - 4 melee -2 rapid = +3 to hit, as i put him at in my example

Yes the summoner ability to "soak" only applies if it is reduced below -con hp, the fighter didnt do that.

Yes the summoner would also be in a problem if we calculated in soft cover, but atleast in my group there is some discussion if your own allies provide cover or not, so i just avoided it. He could also have been off to the side or something to avoid it.

The main problem with the summoner as i see him, is that the eidolon is useless, atleast at higher levels. And considering the summoner has the fantastic spell summon monster at those levels, he dosnt need it. Thats why i dont like the summoner, the main feature of him, the eidolon, becomes utterly useless. If it tries to keep up in damage it gets slaughtered, if it dosnt, it gets slaughtered a bit slower but cant do anything meanwhile.


a funny thing to know actually, that if the fight went exactly like i described, just with real dice rolls, what is the percantage winning chance of the fighter. Its obviously more than 50%, but just how high is it. I guess i could figure it out, being a statistician(taking the dregree anyway, and if that is how working with statistics is spelled in english), but let me see if i get around to it tomorrow. Just the geek in me would like to see the percentage.


nicklas Læssøe wrote:
The main problem with the summoner as i see him, is that the eidolon is useless, atleast at higher levels.

Funny- the really big thread in the advice forum is all about how supposedly a level 20 eidolon can outdamage a level 20 optimized fighter.


ok let me rephrase it. If paizo eventually fixes the rules so the limit of attacks are on manufactored weapons too. and the eidolon cant wear 20 greatswords, then he becomes useless.

The outdamaging 20 greatsword wielding eidolon is too easy to kill, but yes its a very good glass canon.


+6 is pretty poor, and +4 to hit is terrible, for a combatant at lv4. Anything even pretending to do combat should have at least +7 (Bab3, Attribute3, weapon/feat+1) at that point, and any real 25-point buy combatant will have more than 10 (BAB4, Str5, weapon1, feat1). You will need to roll well over 10 to hit combat goons, even after buffs.

And your eidolon has a bunch of secondary attacks, meaning little to no damage against anything with damage reduction 5/anything, which swiftly comes up. The best function IMO is to harass wizards and pick away mirror images so the fighter doesn't have to waste his attacks.

Also, regarding the "Summoner is broke because of spell". I disagree. I have set up summoners for casting, and every time I have come to the conclusion that my allotment of spells known and spells/day leaves me lacking compared to any real caster. Not to mention the fact that my DC is lagging 3 points. Sure, it grows powerful at lv17-20, but I don't have a problem with that. They could give the gunslinger a plasma cannon dealing 30d12/hit on lv20 and I wouldn't care, because the game is mostly over, and I have yet to see a game over lv15 with a SEMBLANCE of balance.

And as pointed out earlier: To summon anything; Dismiss eidolon (standard action), wait a round with no defense, summon monster9/gate (standard action). 9 out of 10 fights at that level is either over at round 3, or at least mostly decided. Again, plasma cannon example might be broke, but if it takes 2 rounds to charge, it would hardly matter. You would do a kill-steal or euthanize a target that has already been "defeated" by the casters by use of debilitating spells.

Liberty's Edge

Lamelguru, let me ask you something: why do you even have the eidolon out in the first place?

Eidolons are useful, but only if you build your character around them (archer/buff support, most item wealth given to eidolon). If you've got a Caster Summoner build, why do you even bother keeping the Eidolon out?

It's like Druid - either you build to support the animal companion, or you drop it for a domain. Summoners either build to support the eidolon or dump it for summon monster spells.


BobChuck wrote:

Lamelguru, let me ask you something: why do you even have the eidolon out in the first place?

Eidolons are useful, but only if you build your character around them (archer/buff support, most item wealth given to eidolon). If you've got a Caster Summoner build, why do you even bother keeping the Eidolon out?

It's like Druid - either you build to support the animal companion, or you drop it for a domain. Summoners either build to support the eidolon or dump it for summon monster spells.

The idea of a caster/summoning focused Summoner really intrigues me... I just don't like how every class feature revolves around the Eidolon. It makes it really hard to ignore.

I guess the Aspect and Greater Aspect features are still interesting, but that's pretty much it.


nicklas Læssøe wrote:

ok let me rephrase it. If paizo eventually fixes the rules so the limit of attacks are on manufactored weapons too. and the eidolon cant wear 20 greatswords, then he becomes useless.

The outdamaging 20 greatsword wielding eidolon is too easy to kill, but yes its a very good glass canon.

The problem is, the whole Eidolon was balanced around the 20 armed biped. The symptoms were treated but no one went anywhere near the disease.


BobChuck wrote:

Lamelguru, let me ask you something: why do you even have the eidolon out in the first place?

Eidolons are useful, but only if you build your character around them (archer/buff support, most item wealth given to eidolon). If you've got a Caster Summoner build, why do you even bother keeping the Eidolon out?

It's like Druid - either you build to support the animal companion, or you drop it for a domain. Summoners either build to support the eidolon or dump it for summon monster spells.

Which you don't have the option of for Summoner. With Druid you can have an animal companion or you can get a domain. For Summoner, YOU HAVE AN EIDOLON. I put that in caps because all the class features outside spellcasting and the single class feature that actually lets you be called a Summoner is entirely built around the Eidolon. The Summoner has exactly two class features that have nothing to do with the Eidolon - Summon Monster and Gate. That's it. There is no option to not have an Eidolon. You either run an Eidolon or you are wasting your time not being a Conjurer Wizard.


This has been an interesting discussion as I have a summoner I play in PFS. She's a whack job with a summoned eidolon which she thinks is her child (and a creepy looking child at that). Hence the build will always be focused on buffing the eidolon, and the 'mother' will act as ranged support.

It certainly looks like I will end up well short of optimized, but this is a concept driven character so I can accept that.


Without being able to state anything meaningful about whether it is OP or broken, I must say that certain features makes me cringe somewhat:

-They get Haste at level 4.

-They summon with a standard action.

-They summon many many times a day, better than a full caster.

-Their summons last minutes instead of rounds.

-They (I might be wrong) can improve their summon using the same feats.

Those five things, together, make me cringe.


Dreaming Warforged wrote:

Without being able to state anything meaningful about whether it is OP or broken, I must say that certain features makes me cringe somewhat:

-They get Haste at level 4.

-They summon with a standard action.

-They summon many many times a day, better than a full caster.

-Their summons last minutes instead of rounds.

-They (I might be wrong) can improve their summon using the same feats.

Those five things, together, make me cringe.

Oh no, Summoners have a single class feature that make them actually summoners. As opposed to the 95% of class features that make them the Thaumaturgist. Oh, and they can't have more than one summon out or have it out the same time as the Eidolon.

If I was to rebuild the Summoner, I would scrap the Eidolon entirely. Give them Summon Nature's Ally at the same level and with the same benefits they get SM at and with right now. Give them Summon Swarm as a class ability at the appropriate level. Give them a free Augment Summoning at first level that also applies to their SP summon abilities as well. Then I would give them abilities that make them even better Summoners.

Your accusations are laughable at best.

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:
Oh, and they can't have more than one summon out.

Unless they actually cast a Summon spell, but I do not think that is your point.

Cartigan wrote:
Give them Summon Swarm as a class ability at the appropriate level.

I'd go with Vomit Swarm instead, because it is actually a better spell.


Dragonborn3 wrote:


I'd go with Vomit Swarm instead, because it is actually a better spell.

It's not really important what spell they get or if they get a made up ability. As long as the Summoner is actually a summoner.


Cartigan wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:


I'd go with Vomit Swarm instead, because it is actually a better spell.
It's not really important what spell they get or if they get a made up ability. As long as the Summoner is actually a summoner.

It IS actually a summoner... from Final Fantasy X or something. :P

I'm not saying that it's a good source of inspiration however.

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:


I'd go with Vomit Swarm instead, because it is actually a better spell.
It's not really important what spell they get or if they get a made up ability. As long as the Summoner is actually a summoner.

Sorry I'm confused the Summoner that specializes in Summoning one giant creature is not a Summoner?

I guess someone never played Final Fantasy....


Cartigan wrote:
BobChuck wrote:

Lamelguru, let me ask you something: why do you even have the eidolon out in the first place?

Eidolons are useful, but only if you build your character around them (archer/buff support, most item wealth given to eidolon). If you've got a Caster Summoner build, why do you even bother keeping the Eidolon out?

It's like Druid - either you build to support the animal companion, or you drop it for a domain. Summoners either build to support the eidolon or dump it for summon monster spells.

Which you don't have the option of for Summoner. With Druid you can have an animal companion or you can get a domain. For Summoner, YOU HAVE AN EIDOLON. I put that in caps because all the class features outside spellcasting and the single class feature that actually lets you be called a Summoner is entirely built around the Eidolon. The Summoner has exactly two class features that have nothing to do with the Eidolon - Summon Monster and Gate. That's it. There is no option to not have an Eidolon. You either run an Eidolon or you are wasting your time not being a Conjurer Wizard.

You can focus the eidolon differently I suppose, more focused to mundane and skill purposes then you can just focus on summons and do not have to be an half-elf.


Dreaming Warforged wrote:

-They get Haste at level 4.

Eh. Wizards get it at 5.

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