A Suggestion To Make APL More Accurate


Pathfinder Society

The Exchange 4/5

So I've been thinking a lot recently about how APL is currently calculated. With my share of bad experiences with large tables, I can attest to the fact that the current +1 to tables with 6+ players really does not accurately reflect the APL.

In another thread, I can't remember which one or who said it, but someone made the suggestion to just divide the sum of levels of the table by 4. Now, I thought this was a brilliant idea, but I think it needs to be expanded upon. For instance, a table of 6 level 6s under this scenario has an APL of 9. I don't think that's quite a fair representation, especially since the higher tier scenarios tend to be more challenging than the 1-5 or 1-7 lot.

I propose that for Tier 1-5 and 1-7 you divide the sum of the table by 4, and for 5-9 and 7-11 you divide the sum of the table by 5. I think this is pretty balanced for each respective tier. I will try to make a spreadsheet to further aid why I think it is balanced, but I invite you to try some calculations yourself and give some feedback.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Joseph Caubo wrote:

So I've been thinking a lot recently about how APL is currently calculated. With my share of bad experiences with large tables, I can attest to the fact that the current +1 to tables with 6+ players really does not accurately reflect the APL.

In another thread, I can't remember which one or who said it, but someone made the suggestion to just divide the sum of levels of the table by 4. Now, I thought this was a brilliant idea, but I think it needs to be expanded upon. For instance, a table of 6 level 6s under this scenario has an APL of 9. I don't think that's quite a fair representation, especially since the higher tier scenarios tend to be more challenging than the 1-5 or 1-7 lot.

I propose that for Tier 1-5 and 1-7 you divide the sum of the table by 4, and for 5-9 and 7-11 you divide the sum of the table by 5. I think this is pretty balanced for each respective tier. I will try to make a spreadsheet to further aid why I think it is balanced, but I invite you to try some calculations yourself and give some feedback.

I am not sure if this is part of your caculation, but an important thing to remember is that You can't play out of Tier.

So even if 6 level 6s had a APL of 9 when divided by 4 they could not play in 7-11 Scearios becasue they don't meet the Min level requirement of 7. So in that case they couild with an APL of 9 play Tier 5-9 and play up 1 sub-tier of 8-9, which is exactly what you are looking for, is it not?

The Exchange 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:

I am not sure if this is part of your caculation, but an important thing to remember is that You can't play out of Tier.

So even if 6 level 6s had a APL of 9 when divided by 4 they could not play in 7-11 Scearios becasue they don't meet the Min level requirement of 7. So in that case they couild with an APL of 9 play Tier 5-9 and play up 1 sub-tier of 8-9, which is exactly what you are looking for, is it not?

So this only applies for calculations within a Tier you are eligible for. 6 level 6s is only okay for Tier 1-7 and 5-9. Under the assumption they would be playing in a Tier 5-9, I think their sum total of level should be divided by 5, meaning an APL of 7. Now if they did Tier 1-7, their APL under my suggestion would be 9, which I think accurately reflects how much of a cakewalk a Tier 1-7 would be for this group.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Joseph Caubo wrote:
So this only applies for calculations within a Tier you are eligible for. 6 level 6s is only okay for Tier 1-7 and 5-9. Under the assumption they would be playing in a Tier 5-9, I think their sum total of level should be divided by 5, meaning an APL of 7. Now if they did Tier 1-7, their APL under my suggestion would be 9, which I think accurately reflects how much of a cakewalk a Tier 1-7 would be for this group.

But that does not change the fact that it does not change anything, In a Tier 1-7 they only have one Sub tier to play, 6-7, unless they where going to play down. And you can have thier APL be 2 billion and that still would not change anything.

I am not sure what you are looking for here.

The Exchange 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Joseph Caubo wrote:
So this only applies for calculations within a Tier you are eligible for. 6 level 6s is only okay for Tier 1-7 and 5-9. Under the assumption they would be playing in a Tier 5-9, I think their sum total of level should be divided by 5, meaning an APL of 7. Now if they did Tier 1-7, their APL under my suggestion would be 9, which I think accurately reflects how much of a cakewalk a Tier 1-7 would be for this group.

But that does not change the fact that it does not change anything, In a Tier 1-7 they only have one Sub tier to play, 6-7, unless they where going to play down. And you can have thier APL be 2 billion and that still would not change anything.

I am not sure what you are looking for here.

Think of all the other instances beside just 6 level 6s. Think of a table of a mix of folks. Calculate APL using the current system, and think of calculating it based on my suggested change. Which one do you think is more of an accurately reflection of APL given the specific tier you're looking at?

I used 6 level 6's to as an example of how for lower tier play, they are really overpowered, but time and time again many GMs caution that same group to never play up when it goes to higher tier play. I think my suggestion takes that into account.

Do a little math and experimenting and get back to me! :)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There are certain Levels that are very Limited in what they can do because On where they fall between Tiers, Level 6 being one of them.

I think more you should look at the lower levels, espeically when it comes to Level 2-4, I would never suggest a System that would allow a Bunch of level 1s to play up, because PCs will die.

The Exchange 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:

There are certain Levels that are very Limited in what they can do because On where they fall between Tiers, Level 6 being one of them.

I think more you should look at the lower levels, espeically when it comes to Level 2-4, I would never suggest a System that would allow a Bunch of level 1s to play up, because PCs will die.

Alright, so look at level 1. Under the old system, APL would be 2. Under my proposed change, it would be (7*1)/4 = 1.75 ~ 2. It doesn't necessarily change things at such low levels nor does it allow level 1s to play up.

Once again, I ask that you play around and try different combinations. Another example. Let's say you have a group of 7 level 4s in a Tier 1-7. Under current APL calculations, their APL would be 5. Under my proposed change, their APL would be (7*4)/4=7, which I think is more accurate. I think at that point you either should let them play up (which you could do under old APL), or split the table and make one of the tables take on an NPC and play at 3-4.

It doesn't really change that much, I just think it allows for a more accurate representation of what APL actually is.

The Exchange 4/5

Not to mention, you're still beholden to your posting about what you can and cannot play up to based on your level restrictions. All my change tries to do is give a more accurate representation of APL.

The Exchange 4/5

Spreadsheet that allows you to mix and match, seeing what the APL would be currently and under my proposed change. I ask you that you clear the contents of the cells you enter numbers into (which should only be the # of players at a particular level). Also, the spreadsheet will let you know if you are entering more players than allowed (AKA greater than a 7 player table).

Sovereign Court

How much liberty does a GM have with modifying encounters? If I do the math suggested above and detect cakewalk, can I throw in more creatures or up the CR level? One time I accidentally misread an encounter and threw 2 baddies instead of 1, almost TPK'd my party. That's not what I'm going for, but I think it's boring for everyone if they knock out an encounter without losing a single HP.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Aubhel Reghorn wrote:
How much liberty does a GM have with modifying encounters? If I do the math suggested above and detect cakewalk, can I throw in more creatures or up the CR level? One time I accidentally misread an encounter and threw 2 baddies instead of 1, almost TPK'd my party. That's not what I'm going for, but I think it's boring for everyone if they knock out an encounter without losing a single HP.

Per PFS rules, GMs have zero leeway in adjusting encounters. All encounters should be run as written. This isn't being stated to start the discussion, only to answer the questions per the "officlal" ruling. If you want to discuss that topic, there are lots of threads arguing the system.

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