RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I would like to know if you can apply the quicken metamagic feat to a summoner monster spell, to cast the spell as a swift action. If you can does the summoned creature appear immediately and take its action? I did some searching and got mixed answers. Thanks in advance.
No, you cannot quicken the summon monster spells. Here is why:
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Casting Time 1 round
One round is longer than 1 full-round action. Ergo, it cannot benefit from the feat.
EDIT: Ninja'd
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In 3.5 you could not.
In PF, it appears you can.
Cross-posted from another thread, and quoting Wraithstrike since he gets credit for posting this originally.
btw, summon spells cannot be quickened.
Spells with casting times longer than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.
Summon spells have a casting time of 1 round which is greater than a full round action.
Enough of this "yes you can, not you can't".
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Summon Monster I
School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1Casting Time 1 round
Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Now IIRC a full round, and 1 round were different in 3.5, but it seems pathfinder has made them equals for the purpose of quickening, and since summoning is not more than 1 full round it is legal until erratta comes out. I thought I had a feat in 3.5 to get past this issue(not being able to quicken summoned spells) in 3.5, so it may be an error that summoned spells can be quickened, and I can only direct someone to start a rules thread and FAQ it so it can be changed, but as it stands now it is legal.
although you have to use a full-round action to cast a spell with a 1 round casting time (meaning no movement other than a 5 foot step), it takes longer then a 'full round action' to do so... full round actions resolve at the end of your turn while casting a spell with a 1 round casting time explicitly does not resolve until just before your next turn.
although you have to use a full-round action to cast a spell with a 1 round casting time (meaning no movement other than a 5 foot step), it takes longer then a 'full round action' to do so... full round actions resolve at the end of your turn while casting a spell with a 1 round casting time explicitly does not resolve until just before your next turn.
Please see the above rules quotes.
although you have to use a full-round action to cast a spell with a 1 round casting time (meaning no movement other than a 5 foot step), it takes longer then a 'full round action' to do so... full round actions resolve at the end of your turn while casting a spell with a 1 round casting time explicitly does not resolve until just before your next turn.
I understand what you mean, and I want to not agree with the ruling, but the book says otherwise. It may have been an oversight on Paizo's part, but as written it works. 1 round is longer than a full round action, but per the above post it is considered a full round action for the purposes of spellcasting which is all what mattes with regard to the quicken spell feat. Like I said you can FAQ it to see if the devs will errata it but it is legal as written.
although you have to use a full-round action to cast a spell with a 1 round casting time (meaning no movement other than a 5 foot step), it takes longer then a 'full round action' to do so... full round actions resolve at the end of your turn while casting a spell with a 1 round casting time explicitly does not resolve until just before your next turn.
I agree.
The fact that it takes a full round action on your turn, only specifies which action type you must use (in terms of existing actions), the effects only comes into effect a the start of your next turn, so the casting of the spell not completed before that.
What must be considered with 1 round casting time, is that if you are damaged or otherwise affected after your own turn, and before your next, then you have to make a concentration check to keep it. Thus casting the spell extends into
Actually the quotes from wraithstrike pretty clearly states, that it is longer:
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. "
While the action you take is a full round action (the longest existing action), it further specifies that you only complete the spell at the start of your next turn, when it comes into effect.
'Full round action + time until your next turn' is longer than 'full round action'.
So... you could cast a quickened summoning spell as a swift action, but the beastie still doesn't show up 'till the beginning of your next turn? :)
Best of both worlds!
I think they should just keep the 1 round, and 1 full round spells separate like it used to be.
as for the rules, it really seems as if it can be quickened. (but monsters show up on the next turn)
the casting time is defined in the spell as 1 round. And the rules for quickening talk about "more than one round". So if "more" doesn't mean "more or equal" then it is possible by RAW.
I expect this to be an error tough, that's why I marked it as FAQ.
So... you could cast a quickened summoning spell as a swift action, but the beastie still doesn't show up 'till the beginning of your next turn? :)
Best of both worlds!
I would play it that way :)
Of course I may be biased, since I gave Summon spells a casting time of one standard action in my last real-life campaign. It didn't seem to blow anything up (well, apart from my NPCs).
Uhm, maybe I'm oversimplifying but...
Normal summon spell: full-round action / 1 round casting - with the characteristic that it's effects appear after the spell is cast, so in the beginning of the next round.
Quicken spell: turns any spell casting of full-round or standard action into a free action.
So, I think that Quicken summon makes it a free action and the creatures appear immediately. The creatures appear after the spell is cast, as with ALL spells. It makes no sense to have it cast as a free action and then still wait for a turn.
Uhm, maybe I'm oversimplifying but...
Normal summon spell: full-round action / 1 round casting - with the characteristic that it's effects appear after the spell is cast, so in the beginning of the next round.
Quicken spell: turns any spell casting of full-round or standard action into a free action.
So, I think that Quicken summon makes it a free action and the creatures appear immediately. The creatures appear after the spell is cast, as with ALL spells. It makes no sense to have it cast as a free action and then still wait for a turn.
Swift, not free.
Uhm, maybe I'm oversimplifying but...
Normal summon spell: full-round action / 1 round casting - with the characteristic that it's effects appear after the spell is cast, so in the beginning of the next round.
Quicken spell: turns any spell casting of full-round or standard action into a free action.
So, I think that Quicken summon makes it a free action and the creatures appear immediately. The creatures appear after the spell is cast, as with ALL spells. It makes no sense to have it cast as a free action and then still wait for a turn.
By RAW they would not come into play, but I do see your point. Barring a rod of quicken metamagic anything you quicken summon will most likely not be that much help anyway, but I do think the dragon in the other thread did have such a want for the purpose of that discussion.
as for the rules, it really seems as if it can be quickened. (but monsters show up on the next turn)
the casting time is defined in the spell as 1 round. And the rules for quickening talk about "more than one round". So if "more" doesn't mean "more or equal" then it is possible by RAW.
I expect this to be an error tough, that's why I marked it as FAQ.
Well the rules for quickening is talking about 'more than a full-round action' which isn't equivalent of a 1 round casting time.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
What is the argument that this casting, which extends to right before your next turn, isn't longer than the full-round action you initiate it with?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Okay, turn your eyes to the Concentration rules for a second.
Injury: If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
It quite clearly states that a spell with a casting time of "1 full round" (or more) can be interrupted by damage. Say Wizard A wants to cast summon monster I. On his turn, he takes a full-round action to cast it. No one has readied an action to interrupt him and he provokes no AoOs for casting. Now, next in the initiative order is Bad Guy A who sees Wizard A casting. He charges Wizard A and hits him with his flail. Wizard A needs to make a Concentration check or lose the spell because, even though he used his full-round action, he's NOT DONE CASTING IT YET. Thus we have the difference between a "full round action" and "1 round" casting times.
EDIT: Also, what Harald said.
According to the magic section they are equivalent for the purposes of casting. If they were not then why would the rule even exist?
According to the magic section they are equivalent for the purposes of casting. If they were not then why would the rule even exist?
Because the above quotes only include parts of the rules. The rules don't state that they are equivalent, it just states which action type you need to use when casting a spell with a casting time of 1 round, or longer.
You use a full-round action to start casting a spell with 1 round casting time. You are not done casting the spell (it is not complete) until the beginning of your next turn.
A full-round action takes the your entire turn to complete, a casting time of 1 round is longer than that.
I am glad this is a clear cut and simple answer. I am glad for the feed back.
YES YOU CAN.
You need another feat to do it, however, from the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path, called Acadamae Graduate. It speeds up all summoning spells to a standard action. You can then quicken it as normal.
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According to the magic section they are equivalent for the purposes of casting. If they were not then why would the rule even exist?
In my mind it's actually a clarification of the 3.5 rules. In PF you need a full-round action to start casting a 1-round casting time spell. In 3.5 this was not explicit, thus it was possible to interpret the rules as allowing you to move, spend a standard action to start casting, then on your next turn spend a move action to finish casting.
Now, it may be that that interpretation for 3.5 is wrong, but at least PF makes it clear that you need a full-round action.
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With respect mdt, I must disagree.
1 round > full-round action
Thereby a spell with a casting time of 1 round remains an invalid candidate for Quicken Spell.
1 round casting durations are a special case where casting time is greater than a full-round action, hence why they risk being interrupted by other creatures during their turns. A risk that a spell with a casting duration of a full-round action does not suffer from. That should be reason enough for most GMs to decide how they prefer to handle this ruling.
What mdt posits is that no spell in the game exists with a casting duration greater than a full-round action. I humbly disagree. Why would Quicken Spell refer to spells that are ineligible when none exist with durations greater than a full-round action, making the statement superfluous?
This thread would be a good candidate for an FAQ.
With respect mdt, I must disagree....
What mdt posits is that no spell in the game exists with a casting duration greater than a full-round action. I humbly disagree. Why would Quicken Spell refer to spells that are ineligible when none exist with durations greater than a full-round action, making the statement superfluous?
Animal Messenger : 1 minute
Antipathy : 1 hourArcane Eye : 10 minutes
Astral Projection : 30 minutes
Atonement : 1 hour
Augury : 1 minute
Awaken : 24 hours
And that's just the A spells.
With all due respect.
1 round > full-round action
Not true, according to the PRD
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action.
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'Full round action + time until your next turn' is longer than 'full round action'.
Lets start with the PRD description of a round:
Round: Combat is measured in rounds. During an individual round, all creatures have a chance to take a turn to act, in order of initiative. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.
So, a full round action takes 6 seconds. your next turn starts 6 seconds from when last turn started. Although we do combat in game as a serial procedure ("A" goes, then "B" goes, then "C" goes, etc..) it really is a parallel procedure ("A","B","C", etc all go). Since a round is defined as 6 seconds, not 6+n seconds, where "n" is the number of combatants, a "full-round" is the same time as "a full round + time until your next turn", both are 6 seconds.
The reason we run it as serial is for sanity of the players and GM, but generally actions are happening at the same time (or at least in the same 6 second time period). Initiative just gives you who reacts first in the 6 second slice.
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A full-round action takes the your entire turn to complete, a casting time of 1 round is longer than that.
No, casting time is how long it takes to cast the spell. It's already been quoted above what the rules say about '1 round'. What type of action is required for a casting time of 1 minute? 10 minutes? 1 hour? 24 hours? A full-round action isn't it.
That's because cating time and combat action times are not completely a 1-to-1 correspondence. When the casting time is less than a round, then we use the action type to represent the time it takes (a swift vs a free vs a standard). Once it reaches a round, we stop using it as a 1to1. Then we have to go look at the rules to see what they say, and that is quoted directly above if you look up a few inches.
What type of action is required for a casting time of 1 minute?
The rules say "for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times".
So, those are also full-round actions (although several such).
Besides, as to the quote that a 1-round spell is simply a full-round action and then the casting is complete, how about this rules quote:
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
(bolding is mine)
That quote strongly indicates that while you only spend a full-round action in your turn, the actual act of casting the spell isn't over until your next turn is about to begin.
What type of action is required for a casting time of 1 minute?
The rules say "for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times".
So, those are also full-round actions (although several such).
Besides, as to the quote that a 1-round spell is simply a full-round action and then the casting is complete, how about this rules quote:
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
(bolding is mine)
That quote strongly indicates that while you only spend a full-round action in your turn, the actual act of casting the spell isn't over until your next turn is about to begin.
And that's a perfectly fine rule. It in no way invalidates this rule.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Quicken spell doesn't care how long you have to concentrate for. It just says, you can't use it on a spell that takes more than 1 full round action.
That's why I asked what kind of action it takes to cast a 1 minute duration spell. It takes 10 full-round actions. 10 > 1 , no quicken.
How many full-round actions does it take to cast a 1 round casting time spell? 1 = 1, can quicken.
The problem is, people are reading '1 round casting time' as being more than one full action. It isn't. It takes exactly one full round action to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 round.
When the spell takes effect is irrelevant. You quicken a summon spell, you cast it as a swift action. The creature appears right before your action on the next round, just as normal. However, you only have to concentrate for the swift action to cast it, not for the entire round. You've spent a feat for that ability and raised the spell level by 4. Alternately, you've used a charge from your metamagic rod. Either way, it's not something for nothing, and the RAW specify it is valid.
Mdt looks to be correct.
I remember there being a metamagic feat in the distant past that was +1 or +2 spell level that allowed the summon spell to be cast as a standard action.
I'd allow something like this in my games...maybe require the player to have spell focus: conjuration and Augment Summoning.
Anyone who wants to use Quicken Spell if summoning is welcome to. The summons, while useful, are not what I would consider a power quicken.
Example: Quickened Haste>Quickened Summon Monster 3
Quicken spell doesn't care how long you have to concentrate for. It just says, you can't use it on a spell that takes more than 1 full round action.
As I said, some people focus on the word action.
But Quicken is not saying that more actions that a full round action is the deathknell for application, but rather just more than a full round action.
A metamagic'd spontaneous cast spell takes a full-round action and takes effect at the end of this action. Obviously it doesn't take any more actions or anymore of anything for this to be cast.
A 1 round casting time spell takes 1 full-round action and requires the caster to continue the casting until the start of their next turn. Also clearly it doesn't require more actions, but at the same time it obviously is more than just the action during the caster's turn that is required.
So it boils down to if you add the word 'actions' into the line for quicken: takes more actions than a full-round action.
Personally I do not, but I can understand those that do, its something that's been ambiguous for a long time in 3x so it makes a nice FAQ entry for Paizo to elect to run upon.
James
I'm not sure exactly which way you're arguing James.
Quicken Spell (Metamagic)You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.
I think it's actually fairly plain. In 3.5, a 1 round spell took more than one full action. In pathfinder, it doesn't. *shrug*
More what?
More actions? Then you would be correct.
Simply more than that action? Then you would be incorrect.
Or has Pathfinder changed 1 round casting time spells so that, for example, they cannot be disrupted outside of the 1 full round action to cast them? Likewise when do they come into being? During the turn that the action was taken or at the start of the caster's next action?
Is there something more than simply the 1 full-round action involved here?
-James
PS: You could be right, but please indulge me as I don't have time to search through to see what Pathfinder changed here.
This would be the change introduced in PF.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
So, it takes a full-round action. Period. One. It comes into effect the next turn, and if you are interrupted before it comes into effect, you can be interrupted. However, it doesn't take more than that one action.
If the intent was to still have spells with 1 round casting times not be quickened, then the quicken metamagic should have been updated as well to reflect that (something along the lines of : Any spell that does not take more than one full-round action can be quickened. This does not apply to spells with casting times of 1 round.).
I don't see a difference from 3.5 here.It doesn't take more actions I agree.
The spell is certainly not completed after the 1 full-round action we can both agree, correct? Otherwise it couldn't be interrupted nor would it wait to come into effect.
Do you follow what I'm saying here? I'm wondering if it's getting missed without intonation,
James
PS: I agree that Paizo could have addressed this ambiguity, as well as many others, but they didn't get around to all the old 3.x questions that were up in the air. So absence is not proof one way or the other.
I would give that some credence if there were spells that took 1 full round action to cast, but were not 1 round spells.
There are not any spells with such a casting time. Casting times are :
Free Action
Swift Action
Standard Action
1 round
1 minute
10 minutes
1 hour
24 hours
Any spell that has 1 round as a casting time can be interrupted at any time before your next action. Why? Because your full-round action is taking up the entire round. It's not that the spell is extending into another combat round. It's that your combat round doesn't end until your action begins on the next round. The whole point of making a spell 1 round is to say that it can be interrupted at any point in time between when you cast it and when you have another action.
Under the interpretation you're taking, no spell ever takes 1 full round action to cast. Therefore the limitation on the quickened spell is redundant. It could have just as easily been said 'less than one round to cast'.
This would be the change introduced in PF.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
How is that any different from:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Since the wording is exactly the same in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, you can't use the argument that the wording changed.
It's quite possible that you were always meant to be able to quicken 1-round casting time spells, but it would be the same for both systems.
This would be the change introduced in PF.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.How is that any different from:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Since the wording is exactly the same in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, you can't use the argument that the wording changed.
It's quite possible that you were always meant to be able to quicken 1-round casting time spells, but it would be the same for both systems.
I said the wording changed earlier, and I never retracted my statement. I now see I was doing it wrong in 3.5 all along.
I agree that summon spells can be quickened, but NOT for the reasons everyone is saying.
Casting a spell for a full round is longer than casting a spell for a full round action. No way around that as far as I can see.
However, there are no spells with a full round action casting time (except metamagic'd ones). So why would the designers bring it up at all in the Quicken Spell metamagic feat's text? Obviously, they intended for it to work on those 1 round spells and simply botched the wording.
RAW = DENIED.
RAI = ABSOLUTELY.
In this case, I will likely go with RAI for my games.
since we are bringing up 3.5 here...
A sorcerer needs at least a full-round action to cast any
spell modified by a metamagic feat. Does this means the
spell takes effect in the following round, or does it go off at
the end of the round in which it is cast?Despite the similarity in wording, a spell that requires a
“full-round action” to cast (such as that required by a
metamagic-affected sorcerer spell) isn’t the same as a spell
with a “1-round casting time” (such as that of a summon
monster spell). The former takes your entire turn to complete,
while the latter takes your entire turn as well as the time
between the end of your turn and the start of your next turn.
A full-round action, such as the run action or the withdraw
action, requires an entire round to complete but ends on the
same turn that it began (although you can split it between two
consecutive turns, as described under the “Start/Complete Full-
Round Action” entry on page 142 in the Player’s Handbook).
Thus, a spell that requires a full-round action to cast is
completed at the end of the caster’s turn.
Casting a spell for a full round is longer than casting a spell for a full round action. No way around that as far as I can see.
I posted the link to the PRD above that disagrees with this statement.
@Jaimes Maissen
You bring up good points. However, it's still a sticky morass. I'd really like Paizo to officially FAQ it. I'm willing to admit that WoTC may have made more spells with different casting times toward the end, honestly they were putting out so much stuff with so little quality control it would not surprise me if you could find spells that took free actions to cast that were combat damage spells.
I agree that it might take more concentration to cast Summon Monster than a metamagically quickened spell by a sorcerer, however, that's a specific rule (sorcerer casting metamagic spell) that's superceding a general rule (1 round casting time). Since the Quicken Spell metamagic feat has an even more specific override of the sorcerer metamagic casting rule, I would say the two don't really interact enough to be able to use it as a method of differentiating. Afterall, it would negate the use of Quicken if it took a full round action to cast. :)
Again, it comes down to whether you consider the text to say 'More effort than a full-round action' (Your interpretation) or 'More than a single full-round action' (My interpretation). The feat is ambiguous, and both interpretations are reasonable. Use whichever one you want in your games.
Casting a spell for a full round is longer than casting a spell for a full round action. No way around that as far as I can see.I posted the link to the PRD above that disagrees with this statement.
I've read it again and again and I'm just not seeing it.
It boils down to this.
Either
A 1 round spell is a full-round action where the effect manifests on your next turn, and thus you can quicken it.
or
A 1 round spell takes a full round action to start and finishes at the beginning of your next turn. If this is the case, then you cannot quicken it.
You can make a good case for both.
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Since when is 1 > 1 ?
Quicken states:
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Note that it says "more then 1 full-round action", and not "1 full-round action or more".
Now the real question is how long does it take to cast Share Senses, which is the only spell that has a casting time of "1 full-round", since that no longer exists as a casting time. All the other spells that are close are "1 round".
FAQ!
Well, we have our official answer. You can quicken summoner monster. :)
