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Can you quicken a summon monster / nature's ally spell?


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unfortunately, the FAQ header is still not updating it's last updated date. It still shows August 13, 2010

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
FAQ!
wow. that FAQ gets a lotta use

We put the FREQUENT in FAQ.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
FAQ!

Wait a second.

If summon monster takes a "full round" to cast, and they act immediately once they're cast, and they act on your initiative sequence, and the casting time of a "full round action" ends right before your turn, then do the monsters get 2 attacks that sequence?

I go on a 14. I start casting summon monster.
Other things happen.
Next round right before a 14 the monsters appear and attack.
I go on a 14, do the monsters attack again? They're supposed to go on my initiative, right?

Edit:

Also, summon monster wand? Do the monsters act the turn you shoot the wand, or the turn afterward? Sounds like summoning from a staff or wand (standard action) would have immediate effect while summoning from a spell slot would not, is that correct?


beej67 wrote:


If summon monster takes a "full round" to cast, and they act immediately once they're cast, and they act on your initiative sequence, and the casting time of a "full round action" ends right before your turn, then do the monsters get 2 attacks that sequence?

Nope. "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn." It's your turn when they appear, and when they act. They don't act twice on your turn.

beej67 wrote:


Also, summon monster wand? Do the monsters act the turn you shoot the wand, or the turn afterward? Sounds like summoning from a staff or wand (standard action) would have immediate effect while summoning from a spell slot would not, is that correct?

Wand: "If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand."

Staves: "If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff."


Wait, I'm confused.

If Sorcerer A starts casting an Extended Shield at exactly the same moment that Sorcerer B starts casting Enlarge Person, Sorcerer A will be done with his spell, while Sorcerer B is still casting his spell until the beginning of Sorcerer B's next turn. How does Sorcerer B's spell not have a longer casting time?

Also:

If I cast a Quickened Summon Monster II, do the monsters still come in at the start of my next turn? Can my spell still be interrupted later in the round? If the first thing I do is cast Quickened Summon Monster II, could I take more actions that turn, like cast a spell, or would that break my concentration?


Quantum Steve wrote:

Wait, I'm confused.

If Sorcerer A starts casting an Extended Shield at exactly the same moment that Sorcerer B starts casting Enlarge Person, Sorcerer A will be done with his spell, while Sorcerer B is still casting his spell until the beginning of Sorcerer B's next turn. How does Sorcerer B's spell not have a longer casting time?

Also:

If I cast a Quickened Summon Monster II, do the monsters still come in at the start of my next turn? Can my spell still be interrupted later in the round? If the first thing I do is cast Quickened Summon Monster II, could I take more actions that turn, like cast a spell, or would that break my concentration?

For the first question:

Sorcerer B's spell has an effectively longer casting time, but the action it takes to cast it is exactly the same. They both take exactly 1 full-round action to cast, and so both are eligible for the quicken spell feat as neither takes more than 1 full-round action in terms of the action economy.

For the Also question:

The monster appears immediately after you finish the spell.

Summon Monster wrote:
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

Since the spell is now a swift action, you finish the spell at the end of the swift action and that's when the monster appears.

The confusion is coming from the description of a 1-round casting time spell, which says that the spell takes effect at the start of your next turn. Since a quickened summon monster has a casting time of 1 swift action, not 1 round, that no longer applies. You cast it as a swift action, the monsters appear and act immediately, you continue your turn as normal. It cannot be interrupted. (remember that swift action spells do not provoke AoO, so not even that can interrupt it).


Bascaria wrote:


Sorcerer B's spell has an effectively longer casting time, but the action it takes to cast it is exactly the same.

But who was talking about actions rather than time?

I don't think it's that great a FAQ call myself.

As to quickened spells.. they don't provoke, but they can be interrupted as far as I know by readied actions,

James

Contributor

james maissen wrote:
Bascaria wrote:


Sorcerer B's spell has an effectively longer casting time, but the action it takes to cast it is exactly the same.

But who was talking about actions rather than time?

In a game where combat time is represented by turns and actions rather than seconds, only turns and actions are relevant. It doesn't matter if a FRA takes 4 seconds, 5 seconds, 5.5 seconds, or 6 seconds, the turn-based game mechanic means they use the same amount of time/action resources: 1 full-round action.


james maissen wrote:
Bascaria wrote:


Sorcerer B's spell has an effectively longer casting time, but the action it takes to cast it is exactly the same.

But who was talking about actions rather than time?

I don't think it's that great a FAQ call myself.

As to quickened spells.. they don't provoke, but they can be interrupted as far as I know by readied actions,

James

Then house rule it that you can't quicken 1-round casting time spells.

If I had to guess I would say that the thinking was this:
(1) It was always to goal to allow 1-round casting time spells to be quickened
(2) It is stated that 1-round casting time spells take a full-round action to cast, and so they should qualify for the feat.
(3) As proof of this, consider that no spell in the entire game has a stated casting time of 1 full-round action, so the de facto interpretation would be that 1-round casting time = 1 full-round action casting time

The metamagic sorcerer confusion is an unintended side consequence. The reason that sorcerers were specifically called out as working differently with their full-round metamagic than 1-round non-metamagic is that if sorcerers could be interrupted when they metamagiced, or if the effect didn't happen until the next turn, then they would NEVER metamagic.

If they did, then everyone within range who could charge, or everyone within range with a ranged weapon would target them and they'd be interrupted. Or the wizard could make his spellcraft check, shout "IT'S A MAXIMIZED INTENSIFIED FIREBALL!!!!!" as a free action on his turn, and then everyone scatters on theirs. All of a sudden the sorcerer can only hit 1 dude with his lvl 7 spell. So the sorcerer's metamagic is called out as a specific exception, but the general rule holds.

As stated above, though. If you don't like the FAQ, then house rule otherwise.

Readied action would still interrupt the casting, yes. My mistake not mentioning that.

EDIT: Ninja'd by SKR. I feel kinda honored.


Think of everything happening in the same 6 seconds all at once and stop thinking in turn order. It takes the same 6 seconds to cast summon monster than it does to cast mage armor, except the difference is that summon monster takes your FULL concentration in the matter. Meaning you can barely move and any attacks that hit youwhile casting will effect the outcome. Mage armor doesn't take nearly the same concentration.

Silver Crusade

Something else I want to point out:

Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.
You can perform another action, even casting another
spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A
spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round
action cannot be quickened.

A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher
than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell
doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell
cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is
not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the
spell’s casting time.

I'm not sure who wrote this feat but they messed up. See the part I have in bold letters?

1 round is more than 1 full round action so that right there already tells you something. The 1 round part part shouldn't even be there because the 1 full round action comes before it.

So the designers need to decide which one they are going to go by, either a 1 round action or 1 full round action. If they choose longer than a full round action then no Summon Monster will not work, if longer than a 1 round action then yes it would work.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:

Something else I want to point out:

Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.
You can perform another action, even casting another
spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A
spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round
action cannot be quickened.

A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher
than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell
doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell
cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is
not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the
spell’s casting time.

I'm not sure who wrote this feat but they messed up. See the part I have in bold letters?

1 round is more than 1 full round action so that right there already tells you something. The 1 round part part shouldn't even be there because the 1 full round action comes before it.

So the designers need to decide which one they are going to go by, either a 1 round action or 1 full round action. If they choose longer than a full round action then no Summon Monster will not work, if longer than a 1 round action then yes it would work.

The part you are missing is the language just before what you bolded: "A spell whose casting time is more than...". Because Summon Monster has a casting time of 1 round (not more than 1 round), it may be quickened.

Furthermore, there is no distinction between 1 round and 1 full-round action, as they are synonymous. Spells with a casting time of 1 round require a full-round action to cast that spell, and the effects of such a spell take effect just prior to your turn in the next round.

Besides, SKR FAQed this topic and posted a link to it in this thread almost a year ago.


HangarFlying wrote:

Furthermore, there is no distinction between 1 round and 1 full-round action, as they are synonymous. Spells with a casting time of 1 round require a full-round action to cast that spell, and the effects of such a spell take effect just prior to your turn in the next round.

By your own words, they are not synonymous, and there is a distinction between them. As per SKR's ruling, the effective casting time just isn't one of those distinctions (which you may or may not agree with).

Silver Crusade

HangarFlying wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Something else I want to point out:

Quicken Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.
You can perform another action, even casting another
spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A
spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round
action cannot be quickened.

A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher
than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell
doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell
cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is
not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the
spell’s casting time.

I'm not sure who wrote this feat but they messed up. See the part I have in bold letters?

1 round is more than 1 full round action so that right there already tells you something. The 1 round part part shouldn't even be there because the 1 full round action comes before it.

So the designers need to decide which one they are going to go by, either a 1 round action or 1 full round action. If they choose longer than a full round action then no Summon Monster will not work, if longer than a 1 round action then yes it would work.

The part you are missing is the language just before what you bolded: "A spell whose casting time is more than...". Because Summon Monster has a casting time of 1 round (not more than 1 round), it may be quickened.

Furthermore, there is no distinction between 1 round and 1 full-round action, as they are synonymous. Spells with a casting time of 1 round require a full-round action to cast that spell, and the effects of such a spell take effect just prior to your turn in the next round.

Besides, SKR FAQed this topic and posted a link to it in this thread almost a year ago.

There is a distinction. If you cast a spell that is 1 round it takes effect at the beginning of your next turn. If you are a fighter and you want to make four attacks you take a full round action to make all of your attacks followed by a 5 ft step.

Do all of your fighter's attacks take place before your turn is over or at the beginning of your next turn? 1 round is longer than a full round action.

I bolded exactly what needed to be bolded. If this is their ruling then they need to errata the actual feat and correct the language.


shallowsoul wrote:

There is a distinction. If you cast a spell that is 1 round it takes effect at the beginning of your next turn. If you are a fighter and you want to make four attacks you take a full round action to make all of your attacks followed by a 5 ft step.

Do all of your fighter's attacks take place before your turn is over or at the beginning of your next turn? 1 round is longer than a full round action.

I bolded exactly what needed to be bolded. If this is their ruling then they need to errata the actual feat and correct the language.

Personally I'm happy that the folks at Paizo made a decision on which way they wanted it to be..

This was something that was disputed for quite a long while and was in need of adjudication. As I stated way back when this thread was active I would have ruled the other way, I'm happy that its no longer murky grey but rather cleanly spelled out.

There's certainly distinctions between a spell that has a full-round action casting time (e.g. a metamagic'd sorcerer/oracle spell) and a spell that has a 1 round casting time. The later does not come into effect until the start of the subsequent turn, it can be disrupted after the caster's turn is over, and while doing so the caster does not threaten squares (unless Paizo has changed these with PF and I missed it).

But it's there call what they want things to be in PF. They might not align perfectly from material copied/pasted from the SRD, but once we know what its supposed to be that's not an issue.

Always funny when threads get resurrected. I'll take it as an opportunity to thank Paizo for making a ruling on this issue that WotC left open,

-James

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"1 full-round action" is not a casting time*, per se. It is how long a sorcerer or bard takes to cast a spell with a casting time of "1 standard action" with a Metamagic feat applied. A wizard cannot cast a spell that requires a full-round action to cast and then have the effects occur on the same round.

So, a wizard can prepare a quickened summon monster 1 and cast it as a swift action. A sorcerer can cast a quickened enlarge person as a swift action. A sorcerer could not cast a quickened extended enlarge person, because by applying the extended Metamagic feat, the spell would require more than 1 full-round action to cast that spell.

EDIT: * casting time as it relates to the spell description.

EDIT 2: by using the language they did in the Quicken Spell feat, it allows sorcerers (et. al.) to use the feat. In 3.5, they were unable to quicken spells.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wow, thread necro.

Again, as the FAQ points out. It has nothing to do (in PF) with how long it takes the spell to Manifest. The feat only cares about the type of action required to cast said spell. If it's one full action or less, then it can be quickened. If it's more than one full action to cast, then it can't.

It can't get more simple than that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mdt wrote:

Wow, thread necro.

Again, as the FAQ points out. It has nothing to do (in PF) with how long it takes the spell to Manifest. The feat only cares about the type of action required to cast said spell. If it's one full action or less, then it can be quickened. If it's more than one full action to cast, then it can't.

It can't get more simple than that.

So can summon monster spells be quickened?


Ravingdork wrote:
So can summon monster spells be quickened?

Summon Monster I - Casting Time 1 round

FAQ: Can you use Quicken Spell on a spell with a casting time of "1 round": Yes.

Andoran

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but there is a feat in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP Campaign Setting that allows wizards to make a con check and make the summoned creatures appear in the same round as the spell cast. I've seen it put to use to a very devestating effect. But I can't remember what it's called.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Madclaw wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but there is a feat in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP Campaign Setting that allows wizards to make a con check and make the summoned creatures appear in the same round as the spell cast. I've seen it put to use to a very devestating effect. But I can't remember what it's called.

CotCT is, I believe, written under 3.5 and would be superseded by the release of the PFRPG. Unless there is a similar feat for PF, then it wouldn't apply unless a GM house ruled it in.

Qadira

3.5 had a similar FAQ along the lines of the PF ruling.

Some of the people, Some of the Time...

Qadira

Pathfinder also has a feat sacred summons: if your align matches the creature you can do it as a standard instead of 1 round, that's even better than quickening, it doesn't bump the level.

Andoran

HangarFlying wrote:
Madclaw wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but there is a feat in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP Campaign Setting that allows wizards to make a con check and make the summoned creatures appear in the same round as the spell cast. I've seen it put to use to a very devestating effect. But I can't remember what it's called.
CotCT is, I believe, written under 3.5 and would be superseded by the release of the PFRPG. Unless there is a similar feat for PF, then it wouldn't apply unless a GM house ruled it in.

It's still legal for PFS play.


So to be clear, if I have a quicken rod, I can quicken summon monster, and then regular summon monster, in the same round, but both spells go off right before my next move phase and both sets of monsters move on my next action.

Correct?

That could be freaking brutal with the Cyclops nat 20 trick.

And with a maximize rod in your off hand, you could maximize one of the two summons (not the quickened one), to summon 1d4+6 cyclopses, all of whom hit and threaten to crit on the following turn.

Right?

I'm so doing this in my game tonight.

Silver Crusade

Sometimes I don't think the designers take everything into account before they make a ruling.


beej67 wrote:
So to be clear, if I have a quicken rod, I can quicken summon monster, and then regular summon monster, in the same round, but both spells go off right before my next move phase and both sets of monsters move on my next action.

The quickened spell is a swift action. The spell is resolved at the end of that swift action, the critter appears and acts. Then you use a full-round action to cast, concentrate until the start of your next turn when the spell resolves, the critter appears and acts.


So if you want to double whammy it, the thing to do is to cast the maximized once in one round, then next round when they appear drop another quickened one and also a standard action spell.

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