I feel.. that Mythic for casters doesn't have a lot of 'direct power' bonuses, like it does for martials. Mythic increases the power of casters in a sideways fashion, for the most part, but there are some exceptions. Arcane Metamastery, for example, can be a direct power upgrade for a metamagic user.
I wouldn't say casters didn't have some cool abilities... they're abilities just aren't "OMG HAVE TO HAVE" like some of the martial ones. Some of their abilities are pretty nifty. Like I really enjoy the 6th tier Sanctum ability of the Archmage, or the Eldritch Flight ability. But, the problem with Mythic for casters, is you could almost roll a dice and select an ability, and as long as you have Mythic Spellcasting, you're good to go as far as being a Mythic Caster is concerned.
But, the problem with Mythic for casters, is you could almost roll a dice and select an ability, and as long as you have Mythic Spellcasting, you're good to go as far as being a Mythic Caster is concerned.It's more Wild Arcana, I've found - I only need maybe one instance of Mythic Spellcasting/Mythic Spell Lore, for some select spells. But nothing quite beats being able to say "hang on, I'm sure there's a spell in some book somewhere that will solve this problem" before going digging through every single book in the game. And it even gets a +2 CL on top.
You don't even necessarily *need* that, but it is a strong ability... who am I kidding? It's OP as f*$!. But, regardless, just giving a caster Mythic Spellcasting means they're going to rock socks in a fight.
Channel Power is awesome for the Archmage. I think Arcane/Divine Metamastery is probably a must as well. Being able to cast 9th level spells with metamagic feats is very powerful.
I've already seen one spell on the list I know I'll have to modify. Mythic flesh to stone is way too powerful. An automatic slow effect against a single creature or even a powerful creature amongst many is the end of them.
Ohhhh, don't get me started on spells with, "Even if you save..." aspects.
I gave the GMNPC cleric mythic Holy Smite because it was in line with how she'd been playing. Now the fighter (and everyone else) just expects that every creature in a fight is going to be blind for a round. And a round of blindness in mythic is enough to obliterate the enemy. On the other hand, if you want to kill the party, having the grimslakes pair up with their Rays of Exhaustion at Arushelae's Redoubt can result in an entire Exhausted party, saves or no, and you can mop the floor with them.
Saves have to work. Otherwise things break FAST.
Channel power is silly as it is the only viable choice at 6th tier. Which is an issue with many tier abilities; that they are not balanced against each other or even within the same path.
Channel power is silly as it is the only viable choice at 6th tier. Which is an issue with many tier abilities; that they are not balanced against each other or even within the same path.
I noticed this. The only good tier 6 Hierophant is Servant of Balance.
It was very frustrating that there were so few great options. The few that existed were glaringly obvious no brainers.
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Channel power is indeed a no brainer, as in "WHY for the love of everything good and decent would you not take this... even as a bard?!".
Also not super happy with the mythic/nonmythic distinction so lets play a game:
Witch
Level 6+
Slumber Hex
Mythic Hexes
No just go through parts 5-6 and see how many non mythic fights this trivializes.... now consider, that unless they are on their home plane, demon lords do not have mythic ranks. Deskari can thank his lucky stars for his immunity to compulsions.
Taking Critical Master also seems to be the only viable thing to do for Champions in the tier 6 range, otherwise it's back to Precision and Impossible Speed to fill out the gaps.
All in all, there are many abilities which are borderline useless, and obviously so, while a few abilities are very obviously better.
I really enjoy Seven League Leap from the 'fun awesome' standpoint, but yeah... Tier 6 abilities are really lacking.
Channel power is indeed a no brainer, as in "WHY for the love of everything good and decent would you not take this... even as a bard?!".
Also not super happy with the mythic/nonmythic distinction so lets play a game:
Witch
Level 6+
Slumber Hex
Mythic HexesNo just go through parts 5-6 and see how many non mythic fights this trivializes.... now consider, that unless they are on their home plane, demon lords do not have mythic ranks. Deskari can thank his lucky stars for his immunity to compulsions.
Didn't understand the thinking behind demon lords not having Mythic ranks. I plan to give them mythic ranks when I run them. Fights with demon lords will not be trivial or ended by lucky crits.
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Didn't understand the thinking behind demon lords not having Mythic ranks. I plan to give them mythic ranks when I run them. Fights with demon lords will not be trivial or ended by lucky crits.Channel power is indeed a no brainer, as in "WHY for the love of everything good and decent would you not take this... even as a bard?!".
Also not super happy with the mythic/nonmythic distinction so lets play a game:
Witch
Level 6+
Slumber Hex
Mythic HexesNo just go through parts 5-6 and see how many non mythic fights this trivializes.... now consider, that unless they are on their home plane, demon lords do not have mythic ranks. Deskari can thank his lucky stars for his immunity to compulsions.
I think the reasoning was, that getting the players powered up with mythic is the only ways for them to challenge a demon lord, or in other words " he hits his numbers without mythic".
Considering mythic the way it is, they should at least always count as mythic creatures even if they are diminished outside or their realms.
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Well, this thread makes me nervous.
I'm about to starting DMing this game. The majority of my players, unlike me, are looking forward to some real high level content, so I want to do my best to preserve the bulk of the mythic stuff, but I also understand some things have got to be house-ruled.
Here were my thoughts, based on some of the posts I have read so far:
1. Limit in-game quest boons/ tailor them more to player.
2. Ability score bonus divided into two +1 increases to two different stats.
3. Amazing Initiative power for extra standard action now costs 4 mythic points to use, or 2 mythic points for a move action.
4. Use Scorpion's adjusted enemy stats.
5. Add minions to singular boss battles.
6. When selecting mythic path powers and mythic feats, players must spread their selections between offenseive, defensive, and neutral options; judged on a case by case basis.
Do you think this might be enough to keep the game from going completely insane? I don't mind if there are crazy moments as that's what mythic is all about, but I am striving to push the power level down a bit without severely restricting options.
Why not just run them as ordinary PCs without Mythic ability? That's still quite viable for most of the AP. Book 2 would be problematic in places, but outside of that....
Why not just run them as ordinary PCs without Mythic ability? That's still quite viable for most of the AP. Book 2 would be problematic in places, but outside of that....
The Mythic abilities are precisely what my players are looking to try out. I'm just trying to push things down a little, keep it from getting impossible to run, while not cutting pieces out of the Mythic book.
Truth be told, I'm am curious to see how Mythic plays out for my group. This is a mythic AP, and I would like to try and run it that way. However, I can tell just from a few of the threads that Mythic can make things spiral way out of control. I'm just looking for a way to run damage control, without just flat-out denying options.
I decided screw it. If I'm going to go mythic, I'm letting my PCs go big. It's going to be crazy to run from all I've read, might as well just run a crazy high powered game.
We're running the children of our former Kingmaker characters. I'm letting them roll stats in a really generous manner. Letting them choose templates like half-celestial or run two characters. Just going over the top. Sounds like I'm screwed either way. No use trying to limit things. Instead I'll just let them play Hercules, Launcelot, or whatever other crazy mythic hero out of legend. Let them beat back hordes of demons and kill demon lords. I'll just make it as fun and challenging as I can.
How often do you get to play something as crazy as this AP? Not too often. Might as well make it memorable and insanely over-powered. I'll just beef up the enemies in a similar fashion. Let the clash of the titans happen, while the world watches and gasps.
That's what mythic is all about. I guess I'm just going to embrace it.
@Crowheart: Then I have one other suggestion: Keep the group to 5 Mythic Tiers. That will limit some of the abuses.
@PT: If you're going to let them go big then why bother with your uber-templates or the like? Hell, part of the problem is with rolled stats (though I did find a method of compensating for this - if the point equivalence for the stats is 25 points, then add +1 to every stat for every encounter. If it's 35 points, then add +2 to every stat. If it's in the 40s, add +3 to every stat. It balances the higher stats by balancing the monsters to being the same level with their own stats). From what I've heard on another thread, 15-point builds and four characters without Cohorts will provide a somewhat balanced game, with the exception of a couple areas.
All I know is this: I will never run WotR as a stand-alone campaign. My two groups meet monthly, with one halfway through Runelords after over a year, and the second not even a third of the way through Reign of Winter after two years. And with the next campaign I probably won't even incorporate Mythic into the game, except to use against the players.
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Tangent,
I'll use the uber templates because I want epic, incredible battles. Humans enjoy a feeling of accomplishment even if it is illusory. My whole job as a DM is to create that illusion. If the party defeats some incredible monster of legend, I want it to feel like an extraordinary accomplishment. The uber templates are part of how I do that.
My Runelords group defeated Black Magga in three rounds (I've incorporated Mythic into that game, though they were at only the first Tier at that point - Magga was their first Trial). Magga only drained two levels from the barbarian (who isn't a pounce-barbarian, btw) and wasted her second round casting Mass Command (everyone made their save). While the four remaining ogres took 150 damage, the actual PCs took under 20 damage in all.
They felt it was a truly epic and nasty battle. They were burning hero and Mythic points left and right to make Spell Resistance rolls and the like. They enjoyed this fight immensely.
You need not do lots of damage to a group or have a foe last for ten rounds of combat for it to feel Epic. Indeed, when a fight goes too long, it just feels boring.
My Runelords group defeated Black Magga in three rounds (I've incorporated Mythic into that game, though they were at only the first Tier at that point - Magga was their first Trial). Magga only drained two levels from the barbarian (who isn't a pounce-barbarian, btw) and wasted her second round casting Mass Command (everyone made their save). While the four remaining ogres took 150 damage, the actual PCs took under 20 damage in all.
They felt it was a truly epic and nasty battle. They were burning hero and Mythic points left and right to make Spell Resistance rolls and the like. They enjoyed this fight immensely.
You need not do lots of damage to a group or have a foe last for ten rounds of combat for it to feel Epic. Indeed, when a fight goes too long, it just feels boring.
It's about what makes an epic fight to me, not necessarily to you. An 18 second fight will never seem epic to me. I would have considered that fight a "meh" fight, if I were a player in your campaign. It takes a whole lot more at this point to give me that epic feel. If a fight isn't lasting 10 or more rounds, I consider it a random encounter.
When I ran the Kingmaker fight against Irovetti and his crew, it lasted 12 rounds plus of back and forth. It was a blast. After they were done, my party knew this was a battle far different than your standard 2 or 3 round encounter. They knew they had to bring their A game or they were going down.
It goes back to personal taste. That fight might have been boring to you because it took the entire night. It was fun for us. After I finished that campaign, they said those were their favorite characters of all time. That is why we made their kids and decided to run Wrath of the Righteous.
When they fought the crag linnorm gate guardian with 2000 points, they felt they were fighting an amazing creatures. This was no easily killed creature that should have died long ago. They went all out with a real concern about their character's safety. That is the feel I want. There was no "They only have 270 hit points. We'll kill it easy." There was a "What the hell are we fighting and why won't it die? Keep fighting. We have to win" attitude. I like that creating that feeling in the players. I hope to do it often in this campaign.
Though I was reading the demon lords. They are some scary bastards even without mythic. I definitely won't be applying my mythic brute template to them.
so if you were adding on to monsters in kingmaker why pile on to wrath? You already know the RAW dont work for you so why are you stirring the pot?
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so if you were adding on to monsters in kingmaker why pile on to wrath? You already know the RAW dont work for you so why are you stirring the pot?
My guess is, that when it comes to this AP the difference between a group that does try to avoid the good options and pretty much everyone else is ridiculous.
If you slap a couple of mythic tiers on the iconics even they will be able to succeed to an almost comical degree.Even Kingmaker hat fighs as written that seriously challenged my group - turns out mind controll is even better when you group is optimized but doesn't bother with protection from evil.
so if you were adding on to monsters in kingmaker why pile on to wrath? You already know the RAW dont work for you so why are you stirring the pot?My guess is, that when it comes to this AP the difference between a group that does try to avoid the good options and pretty much everyone else is ridiculous.
If you slap a couple of mythic tiers on the iconics even they will be able to succeed to an almost comical degree.Even Kingmaker hat fighs as written that seriously challenged my group - turns out mind controll is even better when you group is optimized but doesn't bother with protection from evil.
In the Mythic Legacy of Fire game I'm playing in, I had this very concern... so, since I was playing two characters, one of whom is a Wizard, I gave our Fighter a Wayfinder with a resonating Clear Spindle so he has a constant protection from possession and mental control as per protection from evil.
I told my GM I was doing it, and I made sure to ask him on no-less than 10 separate occasions with a verbal affirmation of 'Yes, he can have a wayfinder with a resonating clear spindle to prevent mind control'. Despite all this, when it came time for him to try and cast mind control spells on the party, he targeted the Fighter and cursed because he forgot he was, effectively, immune to the spells. I was like, "Dude, I made you say it 10 times and you still forgot... what the hell?"
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so if you were adding on to monsters in kingmaker why pile on to wrath? You already know the RAW dont work for you so why are you stirring the pot?My guess is, that when it comes to this AP the difference between a group that does try to avoid the good options and pretty much everyone else is ridiculous.
If you slap a couple of mythic tiers on the iconics even they will be able to succeed to an almost comical degree.Even Kingmaker hat fighs as written that seriously challenged my group - turns out mind controll is even better when you group is optimized but doesn't bother with protection from evil.
In the Mythic Legacy of Fire game I'm playing in, I had this very concern... so, since I was playing two characters, one of whom is a Wizard, I gave our Fighter a Wayfinder with a resonating Clear Spindle so he has a constant protection from possession and mental control as per protection from evil.
I told my GM I was doing it, and I made sure to ask him on no-less than 10 separate occasions with a verbal affirmation of 'Yes, he can have a wayfinder with a resonating clear spindle to prevent mind control'. Despite all this, when it came time for him to try and cast mind control spells on the party, he targeted the Fighter and cursed because he forgot he was, effectively, immune to the spells. I was like, "Dude, I made you say it 10 times and you still forgot... what the hell?"
The NPC targeting a traditionally bad class when it comes to domination eg. BSF is good, if for some reason the NPC had tried to dominate everybody else in the party, without knowing about the immunity.... that would have been metagaming on his part.
Oh and never forget that GMs have a lot on their plate^^ ... and he could always just have used a quickened dispel magic to deal with the low CL wayfinder first.
so if you were adding on to monsters in kingmaker why pile on to wrath? You already know the RAW dont work for you so why are you stirring the pot?My guess is, that when it comes to this AP the difference between a group that does try to avoid the good options and pretty much everyone else is ridiculous.
If you slap a couple of mythic tiers on the iconics even they will be able to succeed to an almost comical degree.Even Kingmaker hat fighs as written that seriously challenged my group - turns out mind controll is even better when you group is optimized but doesn't bother with protection from evil.
In the Mythic Legacy of Fire game I'm playing in, I had this very concern... so, since I was playing two characters, one of whom is a Wizard, I gave our Fighter a Wayfinder with a resonating Clear Spindle so he has a constant protection from possession and mental control as per protection from evil.
I told my GM I was doing it, and I made sure to ask him on no-less than 10 separate occasions with a verbal affirmation of 'Yes, he can have a wayfinder with a resonating clear spindle to prevent mind control'. Despite all this, when it came time for him to try and cast mind control spells on the party, he targeted the Fighter and cursed because he forgot he was, effectively, immune to the spells. I was like, "Dude, I made you say it 10 times and you still forgot... what the hell?"
The NPC targeting a traditionally bad class when it comes to domination eg. BSF is good, if for some reason the NPC had tried to dominate everybody else in the party, without knowing about the immunity.... that would have been metagaming on his part.
Oh and never forget that GMs have a lot on their plate^^ ... and he could always just have used a quickened dispel magic to deal with the low CL wayfinder first.
True on the Dispel, but, funny thing, the Wayfinder doesn't have to be out in the open. So if it's concealed, like in a backpack (or Handy Haversack/Bag of Holding) it still functions, but can't be targeted 3:)
By the way, he cursed because the NPC had been trying to stealthily mind control him for awhile. Seems he'd been following the Fighter around in a marketplace under an extended Greater Invisibility and had cast multiple dominates all to no effect. The conversation went a little something like this:
GM: "Roll a DC 25 will save vs dominate."
ME: "That won't work on him."
GM: "Just roll."
Fighter: "You sure? It won't work on me."
GM: "Do it"
*rolls dice*
GM: "You make it?"
Fighter: "I guess, yeah. I told you it wouldn't work, Cairen (the Wizard) ensured it."
The GM made him roll against 4 more saves and then got frustrated and asked how he was making it and we informed him that he was immune to such magics due to the Wayfinder. That's when he cursed and remembered it.
i'm just curious as to why, if he (or she) is already having issues with pathfinder without mythic, then why do Wrath with mythic? why not truly challenge your party and run it without?
if its so they can have the cool stuff like throwing people thru walls or becoming a demigod with their own religion, i totally get it, but why not expunge the head ache stuff then rather then see how many thousands of hit points you can blast thru?
i'm not trying to be a jerk just trying to figure it out:)
It's about what makes an epic fight to me, not necessarily to you. An 18 second fight will never seem epic to me. I would have considered that fight a "meh" fight, if I were a player in your campaign. It takes a whole lot more at this point to give me that epic feel. If a fight isn't lasting 10 or more rounds, I consider it a random encounter.My Runelords group defeated Black Magga in three rounds (I've incorporated Mythic into that game, though they were at only the first Tier at that point - Magga was their first Trial). Magga only drained two levels from the barbarian (who isn't a pounce-barbarian, btw) and wasted her second round casting Mass Command (everyone made their save). While the four remaining ogres took 150 damage, the actual PCs took under 20 damage in all.
They felt it was a truly epic and nasty battle. They were burning hero and Mythic points left and right to make Spell Resistance rolls and the like. They enjoyed this fight immensely.
You need not do lots of damage to a group or have a foe last for ten rounds of combat for it to feel Epic. Indeed, when a fight goes too long, it just feels boring.
Because it wasn't an 18 second fight. It was a two-hour fight, and my group gets together for 4-5 hours once a month.
In addition, prior to the game, I ran a combat simulation - one level 7 fighter Ogre with 12 regular Ogres fighting Black Magga. That lasted five rounds. The players showed up at the tail end of it. So technically the PCs showed up halfway through a fight between Black Magga and 13 ogres (one with class levels), fought a slightly-weakened Magga (though not as weakened as if they'd faced Magga as per the AE, in Turtleback Ferry) while the dam was creaking and cracking under them, knowing they had to drive her off before the dam broke. And that's not epic to you because they finished her off in 3 rounds?
Let me ask you. How long does your 12 round fight take? How many physical minutes of Real Life time? If this is either your only combat for the game, or takes more than one game session... well, what's the point? Where is the roleplaying opportunities, the sense of fun? All you're doing is having people roll dice.
Going into the Black Magga situation, I had an Imperious bloodline Sorceress (with a small boost of Aid Other by the halfling cleric) roll a modified 47 Diplomacy Check with the Trolls in the room before where the Ogres were. She switched them from hostile to helpful in one fell swoop and convinced the trolls to help them fight off the ogres who were threatening the dam.
Going through the door, they found Black Magga. One troll charged, was promptly criticalled with a bite (four negative levels and a bit of damage), and the rest went "nope! Nope nope nope nope nope!" and fled.
It was hilarious. The group loved it. And they used negotiation on a quarter of the monsters in the dam (including Pappa Graul down below, though with him they used Intimidate using one of the tentacles they'd cut off of Magga). And that the fight with Magga didn't last for two game sessions? I think the group was happy about that. They had descriptions of Magga squeezing four ogres in half with her tentacles while initially fighting off the barbarian and arcane trickster/swashbuckler (and troll). They knew she was nasty. And they felt the encounter was epic, even if initially I felt disappointed I'd not had her hurt the characters more.
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if its so they can have the cool stuff like throwing people thru walls or becoming a demigod with their own religion, i totally get it, but why not expunge the head ache stuff then rather then see how many thousands of hit points you can blast thru?
i'm not trying to be a jerk just trying to figure it out:)
Speaking at least for myself, Mythic has been an excuse for me to pull out the nastiest, most unreasonably overpowered stuff I have - stuff I rarely get to use in normal campaigns - and hurl it at the party.
For tonight, my party is going up against a Divine (101 Not-So-Simple Templates from Rite Publishing) Dreadnaught (Book of Templates Deluxe from Silverthorn Games) Barbarian/Champion. That's +6 CR from templates alone, pre-mythic. It's not something I get to use very often due to just how powerful it is, but mythic characters can handle it - I used a lower-level Dreadnaught back in Chapter 2, and while he did a great deal of damage to the party, they won out against him in the end. I expect tonight's encounter to be no less challenging, and that's kind of the point. I don't get to use these sorts of things very often, so I'm taking every opportunity I can to do so before the next game, where we will not be using Mythic again.
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Where is the roleplaying opportunities, the sense of fun? All you're doing is having people roll dice.
Some groups are pretty good about roleplaying during combat, y'know. Comments like this come off pretty condescending, thanks.
Look, the two of you have clearly obviously very different groups with very different preferences. Tangent's group would probably be considered immensely underpowered in Piccolo's games and Piccolo's group seems like they'd consider Tangent's game a cakewalk and get bored. No amount of this back-and-forth is going to get the two of you to agree because your games and expectations are simply too different.
so if you were adding on to monsters in kingmaker why pile on to wrath? You already know the RAW dont work for you so why are you stirring the pot?
My hope is that one day game developers actually design enemies capable of taking on PCs in the high level game. Right now even Pathfinder Society doesn't go beyond level 12 because the game starts breaking down at that point in time. That usually indicates bad design at higher levels.
Maybe someday with continued input, game designers will get better at designing the game past level 10 or 12 or so. So we can play full APs without needing to modify every damn thing to challenge the PCs.
Maybe someday with continued input, game designers will get better at designing the game past level 10 or 12 or so. So we can play full APs without needing to modify every damn thing to challenge the PCs.
Piccolo, that's completely deliberate. As several people have elucidated on repeatedly over here in this thread, Paizo intentionally designs its APs for low-optimization parties and expects groups with more experience to be able to adjust upward as necessary. Linked because I don't want to take the time to retype everything I wrote over the past day and a half arguing with Leo about this; just start at that post and read on through the rest of the thread.
i'm just curious as to why, if he (or she) is already having issues with pathfinder without mythic, then why do Wrath with mythic? why not truly challenge your party and run it without?if its so they can have the cool stuff like throwing people thru walls or becoming a demigod with their own religion, i totally get it, but why not expunge the head ache stuff then rather then see how many thousands of hit points you can blast thru?
i'm not trying to be a jerk just trying to figure it out:)
Why? Because one of my players bought mythic adventures because he wanted to play it. I told them a while back after reading the Wrath of the Righteous plot summary I would run it with the children from the Kingmaker campaign. All the guys I play with were excited to do this. I did this probably a year ago or more when mythic and Wrath were first announced.
I would have liked a more balanced Mythic Adventures book. I'm very pleased with the Wrath of the Righteous story. It's a good story I can do a lot with. The mythic rules are very imbalanced and problematic, then again so is Pathfinder at high level.
So three main reasons I'm running it and why it will be mythic:
1. I really like the Wrath of the Righteous story. Good story.
2. I gave my word I would run it. When I give my word, I generally like to stick to it.
3. Since I did give my word, one of my players bought the Mythic Adventures book in anticipation. He has been waiting to play mythic for three or four months. He's very excited to play the children of the Kingmaker campaign.
That's why I decided to go big. Run a huge epic campaign that I'll have to put a ton of work in to make it fun and challenging. Let them play extraordinary characters that are almost like superheroes with beefy stats and amazing backgrounds.
I'm good enough with numbers I can make encounters that will satisfy my need to challenge them, while not killing them. That's what I'm going to do.
We're a very tight knit group. I'd hate to break my word to them because I don't love the Mythic Adventure rules. I'll adapt and run a fun campaign. It's what I do.
i agree 100% on all your points especially keeping your word, also love the Children of the previous campaign angle (we're doing rise of the runelords, and then shattered star with relations of our Jade regent party)
thanks for satisfying my curiosity:)
"Math is Power!" -Patrick Star
Maybe someday with continued input, game designers will get better at designing the game past level 10 or 12 or so. So we can play full APs without needing to modify every damn thing to challenge the PCs.Piccolo, that's completely deliberate. As several people have elucidated on repeatedly over here in this thread, Paizo intentionally designs its APs for low-optimization parties and expects groups with more experience to be able to adjust upward as necessary. Linked because I don't want to take the time to retype everything I wrote over the past day and a half arguing with Leo about this; just start at that post and read on through the rest of the thread.
You can toss this stuff out until you're blue in the face. Even 15 point buy characters at high level (say past level 12 to 14 or so) become far superior to what they're facing as a party unit. Far, far, far superior. They destroy it with ease as written.
Too many options with poorly balanced rules that become worse and worse and worse as the levels rise. It has nothing to do with 15 point buy. It has to do with the game breaking down past a certain level of advancement. The challenges no longer keep pace with the ability of the PCs.
This has been discussed endlessly in D&D/Pathfinder for almost every iteration of the game. No game designer has been able to make a balanced game past a certain level of advancement. The numbers break down. DMs that want to run high level games must rely on their own mathematical capabilities to design encounters. I've been doing it since first edition.
We could discuss two of the biggest problems with Pathfinder: poorly scaling variable saves and iterative attacks. But that would be another thread with a bunch of pages.
Our standard is 20 point buy. I up every single thing they face by a stat or two to simulate that. They still destroy everything I throw at them because action economy is always on the side of the players. Action economy is the single biggest factor in a fight in games like these. Iterative attacks has a multiplicative effect for a party's action economy. Poorly scaling variable saves create a major class imbalance problem that requires players to choose certain classes and options over others for face the dreaded "your character can do nothing a great deal of the time at high level" factor because they miss every aura, gaze, supernatural, spell-like, or extraordinary attack save while paladins and barbarians are saving with ease. It's a real design problem, not something I'm making up because of my personal preference.
I'm speaking as someone that DMs most of the time. Thus enemy design has been one of my focuses for years. I've seen the scaling problems in ever iteration of the game. I figure the game developers haven't made much of an effort to scale the high level game because they don't need to. Most groups peter out around level 7 to 9, maybe sooner. I know a group like mine is a rarity where we average level 14 or so and play through at least 4 to 5 books of an AP. Games generally aren't designed for the outliers. I've learned to do it myself. But I'd still love to see better scaling of the high level game. I think more people would play to higher level if it scaled easier for DMs.
we roll stats played one campaign to 16th level (another to 12th, a third we're at 7th), not the best tactics (my party dont believe in buff spells) i have very rarely had to add simple templates even, just because its easy for you doesnt mean it is for everyone else, this thread is filled with vets so dont think these are the adventure path average GMs and pcs
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i agree 100% on all your points especially keeping your word, also love the Children of the previous campaign angle (we're doing rise of the runelords, and then shattered star with relations of our Jade regent party)
thanks for satisfying my curiosity:)
"Math is Power!" -Patrick Star
No problem. I know I'm freaking out a bit. I'll get in the swing of things. I was surprised at the crazy options in Mythic Adventures. I was doing my usual pre-campaign calculations and getting some crazy numbers.
Now that I've done some more number crunching, I think I can handle the number inflation. Just do a little more math magic on the back end to make it all work once I see exactly what options they pick. They're still figuring out Mythic Adventures themselves.
So far they're having fun with the story. That's the most important part.
we roll stats played one campaign to 16th level (another to 12th, a third we're at 7th), not the best tactics (my party dont believe in buff spells) i have very rarely had to add simple templates even, just because its easy for you doesnt mean it is for everyone else, this thread is filled with vets so dont think these are the adventure path average GMs and pcs
That's probably true. A couple of my friends played with their sons. Their sons didn't min/max or spend much time thinking about positioning or superior tactics. They were just having fun. The good old days when I first started playing. Get together with friends and feel a sense of wonder fighting even an orc. So long ago.
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Piccolo, something you need to understand is that, just how low-optimized the Paizo writers create APs for.
People working for Paizo (can't recall the name, so I won't name them), have stated that Paizo writes APs and modules with the assumption that the players have either 6 months of game experience, or have completed 1 AP before, and never played any other TTRPG before
So you're talking like, fighter who takes Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility Spring Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Run, etc.
Not RAGELANCEPOUNCE Barbarian.
Think about any trap feats that may exist in the core rule book. Those are likely being taken by these players. Look at Valeros, TWF with non-high crit weapons and weapons of different types. Now imagine, if he were, instead, a Rogue using a Longsword and Shortsword. The horror right? That's the kind of person Paizo writes the APs for because it's easier to scale up, than scale down.
Question, Piccolo, do you expect to have any Lancers Cavaliers or Paladins? If so, then I could definitely see your reasoning for the Tier*100 bonus HP.
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Second standard action: (from burning a mythic point, everyone who's mythic gets this at I think 3rd tier or so). Shape Channel at the mass of bad guys in front of me, deselecting the three party members in melee with them. Regardless of whether they save against the channel, they get pushed back thirty feet. So take 10D6/2 damage from the channel, and then get thrown through 4 mythic empowered persistent maximized blade barriers. Roll your saves twice. DC 35 I think is what it was up to. This killed four of the five bad guys in the fight regardless of whether they made every single save. I think it was something like between 400 and 800 damage to all of them, which none of them were surviving even at full health.
I can't find Shape Channel anywhere, how are you accomplishing the knockback effect on a failed save exactly? Could you site sources please?
Question, Piccolo, do you expect to have any Lancers Cavaliers or Paladins? If so, then I could definitely see your reasoning for the Tier*100 bonus HP.
No.
I'm dealing with paladin mythic archer.
Mythic come and get me barbarian.
Swashbuckler Inspired Blade.
Slayer Mythic Archer.
All will output insane damage. They won't have the same big hit capability of the lancer. But they will get a ton of attacks and do a ton of damage. So I'll see more crits.
Have you experienced high level archers and Come and Get me Barbarians? They will match the damage output of the big high lancer over the course of rounds. I figure damage output will reach something in the 1000 points per round amongst the four characters past level 14 or 15.
I believe in my non-mythic Kingmaker campaign, they archer was averaging 30 to 35 a hit for seven or eight attacks. The big warriors were doing 50 to 60 points a hit for four or five hits a round. Average damage per round was in the 300 to 400 range depending on the opponent AC. Sometimes spiked higher for crits. The two-hander warrior did amazing damage when he crit. Did almost 200 a crit, which spiked the entire round by another 100 or so points per crit.
Piccolo, something you need to understand is that, just how low-optimized the Paizo writers create APs for.
People working for Paizo (can't recall the name, so I won't name them), have stated that Paizo writes APs and modules with the assumption that the players have either 6 months of game experience, or have completed 1 AP before, and never played any other TTRPG before
So you're talking like, fighter who takes Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility Spring Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Run, etc.
Not RAGELANCEPOUNCE Barbarian.
Think about any trap feats that may exist in the core rule book. Those are likely being taken by these players. Look at Valeros, TWF with non-high crit weapons and weapons of different types. Now imagine, if he were, instead, a Rogue using a Longsword and Shortsword. The horror right? That's the kind of person Paizo writes the APs for because it's easier to scale up, than scale down.
Whether Paizo admits to it or not, they are also assuming they don't play to very high level. No way they tested the game at level 15 plus very much. The scaling is so bad that no one that has any idea about game design would consider the high level game properly scaled even for 15 point buy, exact wealth by level, and a lack of perfectly optimized characters. You can destroy everything at high level by accident.
It is telling that Pathfinder Society, an organized play group, stops at level 12. One of my own players says he doesn't like the game as much past level 12 to 14. He feels it starts getting too long, complicated, and about big numbers. It does. But we like to get capstone abilities because they're fun to use. So we try to play to 20.
Mythic come and get me barbarian.
Have you experienced high level archers and Come and Get me Barbarians? They will match the damage output of the big high lancer over the course of rounds. I figure damage output will reach something in the 1000 points per round amongst the four characters past level 14 or 15.
I just built one of these last night actually....
It has been suggested that if you like capstone abilities and want to use them, then simply reduce the level at which you get them.
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Question, Piccolo, do you expect to have any Lancers Cavaliers or Paladins? If so, then I could definitely see your reasoning for the Tier*100 bonus HP.No.
I'm dealing with paladin mythic archer.
Mythic come and get me barbarian.
Swashbuckler Inspired Blade.
Slayer Mythic Archer.
All will output insane damage. They won't have the same big hit capability of the lancer. But they will get a ton of attacks and do a ton of damage. So I'll see more crits.
Have you experienced high level archers and Come and Get me Barbarians? They will match the damage output of the big high lancer over the course of rounds. I figure damage output will reach something in the 1000 points per round amongst the four characters past level 14 or 15.
I believe in my non-mythic Kingmaker campaign, they archer was averaging 30 to 35 a hit for seven or eight attacks. The big warriors were doing 50 to 60 points a hit for four or five hits a round. Average damage per round was in the 300 to 400 range depending on the opponent AC. Sometimes spiked higher for crits. The two-hander warrior did amazing damage when he crit. Did almost 200 a crit, which spiked the entire round by another 100 or so points per crit.
Well archery is good, they need their own counters, dungeon design helps. And my groups ranger destroyed my Kingmaker game too
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Look. There is a simple way to keep the game challenging.
Cheat.
If the players have every single rule and monster memorized and complain when you do something unexpected, then it's time to switch game systems. But if they don't or don't mind you doing your own thing, then include such things as demons that teleport as an immediate action and get full attacks afterward. Make sure your monster lasts as many rounds as you feel it should to make the game interesting. And if things are going south? Have one last lucky blow kill the beast quicker than expected!
The game is supposed to be fun. The "rules" are guidelines by which a GM can craft a fun game for his or her players. And doing the unexpected can result in a fun and interesting game.
Heck, I admit that I love my Runelords game because one player keeps doing the unexpected. It isn't always legal (or so I'll find out afterward) - like using Diplomacy for her action and rolling so high that trolls went from hostile to helpful in one swoop - despite the fact the trolls acted first and had already started fighting. Or using Strangling Hair to tie up pretty much most of the non-boss foes in the 2nd book of Runelords, and several in the 3rd.
If the group is enjoying themselves... then who cares if they're walking through encounters or that you need to fudge about hit points so that the group DOESN'T have a cakewalk?
