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Please don't let this devolve into snipping or a flamewar. I really just want a nice calm intellectual discussion. I will not hesitate to ask Ross to lock the thread if it does devolve into insults.
Open question. How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role? Not all gays are effeminate, nor are we always sassy and fashion wise. Is it just more palatable to the public, to see us in not so serious portrayals and stereotypes? Why can't we have an action hero for example who just happens to be gay, without it being a main focus?
How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role?
Seems a bit of an exaggeration; I can think of several homosexual characters who don't match the stereotypes you describe. Albus Dumbledore for instance is a gay character who's acted heroically in action sequences. And the only fashion advice I can recall him offering was in his stated appreciation for warm socks.
I'm curious though why, in your question, you ignore all of the homosexuals depicted in the media who aren't male.
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How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role?Seems a bit of an exaggeration; I can think of several homosexual characters who don't match the stereotypes you describe. Albus Dumbledore for instance is a gay character who's acted heroically in action sequences. And the only fashion advice I can recall him offering was in his stated appreciation for warm socks.
I'm curious though why, in your question, you ignore all of the homosexuals depicted in the media who aren't male.
I mostly notice the stereotype among males. Not that is the case in actuality, just what I have noticed. I am sure a massive stereotype appears for lesbians as well. And that discussion would also be welcome here as long as someone more versed than I could pose a proper question.
How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role?Seems a bit of an exaggeration; I can think of several homosexual characters who don't match the stereotypes you describe. Albus Dumbledore for instance is a gay character who's acted heroically in action sequences. And the only fashion advice I can recall him offering was in his stated appreciation for warm socks.
I'm curious though why, in your question, you ignore all of the homosexuals depicted in the media who aren't male.
Name five lesbian caricatures that come to the top of your head as quickly as do the male ones. Once you've struggled through that, then it's easily to see why the OP was focused primarily on the males.
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While I wouldn't want to debate the fact that these are the most common stereotypes shown, there are other ones, as seen in Brokeback Mountain and Torchwood (O.K. bi-sexual but the homosexual side is emphasized in the show).
I guess one problem is that many shows/movies want to show a gay character without having him to engage in any gay activities (pun intended) on screen. So, by portraying a (bad) stereotype the audience knows "hey, look, he's gay" without seeing him even holding hands with another guy.
Even if media today can have the gay characters cuddle and kiss, that wasn't so much of a possibility let's say fifteen years ago, thats when they decided to use stereotypical behaviour to emphasize the homosexuality of a character, and that habit seems hard to break.
Name five lesbian caricatures that come to the top of your head as quickly as do the male ones.
The OP did only list two gay male stereotypes, so asking for five lesbian media stereotypes seems a bit much, but I'll give it a shot:
• frivolous lipstick lesbian
• masculine "butch" lesbian
• closeted "bi-curious" co-ed
• kick-ass self-confident action-star lesbian
• man-hating über-feminist lesbian
How's that?
Answer to Jeremy's question: Because "the media" are/is b#**+@&@. "The media" are/is --/an artificial mechanism/s through which our reality gets depicted. Anything "they" (and by "they" I mean whoever is in control of "the media" (in whichever particular "media conspiracy" camp you happen to be in)) don't like or don't think will sell or aren't broadminded enough to think of gets edited out. And everybody left in has perfect teeth.
And, really, it's taken "them" up to the past 30 years or so before there were even "Will & Grace" caliber references to homosexuals in the media, so why would you be surprised that they still don't get anything right?
PS Martin Mull in "Roseanne". I don't remember him being outrageously effeminate.
As feytharn noted, I think part of it is so the audience can 'know' a character is gay.
I also think this issue is not limited to homosexuals, but all minority groups as they have gained some semblance of acceptance in media. Is it possible to have an asian in a movie that does not know karate yet?
Name five lesbian caricatures that come to the top of your head as quickly as do the male ones.The OP did only list two gay male stereotypes, so asking for five lesbian media stereotypes seems a bit much, but I'll give it a shot:
• frivolous lipstick lesbian
• masculine "butch" lesbian
• closeted "bi-curious" co-ed
• kick-ass self-confident action-star lesbian
• man-hating über-feminist lesbianHow's that?
I should have re-phrased the question. Name the actual actress / character. :)
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I think the thing I'm railing against is the term 'hetero normative" basically the assumption that every character in a depiction is heterosexual unless they are blatantly obvious in there effeminate actions or mentioned outright not to be. I guess for me I would just like to see a movie where the main character is gay but with only a cursory mention of so such as the woman kissing her girlfriend goodbye or vice versa, without it being the main focus of the bloody movie. Does that make sense at all?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I always thought the Michael C. Hall character in Six Feet Under was a really good example of a gay character that didn't play to any stereotype.
Will, from Will & Grace, seems about as close as you can get for a sitcom.
That's one thing to keep in mind - characters in tv shows generally are portrayed in a fairly stereotypical manner unless the show is about that type of character. If it's not Ally McBeal, the female lawyer will be a heartless b!@$# who prioritizes her career above her family. If it's not the Big Bang Theory, geeky men have glasses and are entirely devoid of social skills.
Action movies are their own particular cess pool of crap. They also tend to lack women who have a function other than looking hot and being kidnapped. Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.
The core problem here is the representation of ALL peoples in the media, yes homosexuality is portrayed especially ludicrously, however the media portrays every group of people, gays/straights/hobbyists/musicians/celebrities/etcs. in amazingly stupid and incorrect ways.
The issue that makes the media portrayal of homosexuality so bad is that alot of people already misunderstand homosexuality, like seriously no clue, for instance;
- All mammals of higher brain function can be homosexual, including some species that prefer same-sex relations outside of mating seasons -
Unfortunately NOTHING about the media is intended to actually and correctly inform the public it's all a joke in really really poor taste.
Please don't let this devolve into snipping or a flamewar. I really just want a nice calm intellectual discussion. I will not hesitate to ask Ross to lock the thread if it does devolve into insults.
Open question. How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role? Not all gays are effeminate, nor are we always sassy and fashion wise. Is it just more palatable to the public, to see us in not so serious portrayals and stereotypes? Why can't we have an action hero for example who just happens to be gay, without it being a main focus?
Counter-example: Omar from the Wire
Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.
Or the opposite, an emotionless, butt-kicker who is only out-matched by the male star.
Counter-example: Omar from the WirePlease don't let this devolve into snipping or a flamewar. I really just want a nice calm intellectual discussion. I will not hesitate to ask Ross to lock the thread if it does devolve into insults.
Open question. How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role? Not all gays are effeminate, nor are we always sassy and fashion wise. Is it just more palatable to the public, to see us in not so serious portrayals and stereotypes? Why can't we have an action hero for example who just happens to be gay, without it being a main focus?
I can't believe I thought of "Roseanne" before I thought of "The Wire"!
Good question.
My thoughts are on this are rather simple. The mainstream population is still not quite ready to have their world turned upside down by a tough action type guy that kisses other men.
Women have it a little easier in this reguard because you have more socially acceptable leeway as it were.
Major progress is being made all the time. Examples include brokeback mountain, the fact that homosexual charecters are mentioned AT ALL is major progress. So we have to put up with stupid sterotypes like the nelly queen from the Manaquine movies(loved the actor,hated the part) or the straight girl pretending to be lesbian so that people will leave her alone(carrie 2)
Mainstream TV is rife with either gay charecters OR openly homosexual actors. Neil Patrick Harris for one and the two guys on that Family comedy that I'm drawing a blank on right now. Alyson Hannigen who played a lesbian charecter on buffy.
The fact that DADT is now gone is major progress. The Hate Crime recognition in laws is major progress.
Remeber that we still only make up a very small part of the population, granted we are a very vocal part but we are a minority.
When your job is to entertain then you have to have MASS appeal in order to be succesful.
If you have a great movie with lots of action and a terrific plot do you really want your work to flop because all anyone will remeber is the two guys kissing at the end and being weirded out by it. I'm not even talking about the head cases that will say "that's discusting" or against nature or whatever I'm just talking about random joe or jane expecting the "happy" ending and then haveing it twisted in a way they didn't expect. Unless your into indy films thats not really gonna work as a marketing tool.
Bottom line unless it makes the studio money to do so it won't be done.
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I always thought the Michael C. Hall character in Six Feet Under was a really good example of a gay character that didn't play to any stereotype.
Will, from Will & Grace, seems about as close as you can get for a sitcom.
That's one thing to keep in mind - characters in tv shows generally are portrayed in a fairly stereotypical manner unless the show is about that type of character. If it's not Ally McBeal, the female lawyer will be a heartless b~%&~ who prioritizes her career above her family. If it's not the Big Bang Theory, geeky men have glasses and are entirely devoid of social skills.
Action movies are their own particular cess pool of crap. They also tend to lack women who have a function other than looking hot and being kidnapped. Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.
That just sounds like lazy writing to pigeon hole everyone into a stereotype role IMHO.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.Or the opposite, an emotionless, b*~%-kicker who is only out-matched by the male star.
Good point.
Reminds me the first time I watched the Matrix, and I misheard a key line in the film. Right as Neo was doing the helicopter rescue thing and the dude in the ship says "he's the one!" I heard the line as "She's the one" and thought they were referencing Trinity. I was awestruck that they'd build the movie up around Neo only to have her be the true hero.
Then I realized I misheard the line, and was bummed.
Gay people have statistically "healthier" relationships, and have a massively lower divorce rate, straight people could learn a thing or two.
Modern family is the show you are thinking of Steven.
I just seriously cannot believe how gender preference can mean ANYTHING to ANYONE, it's among the most negligible information I can learn about someone.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That just sounds like lazy writing to pigeon hole everyone into a stereotype role IMHO.I always thought the Michael C. Hall character in Six Feet Under was a really good example of a gay character that didn't play to any stereotype.
Will, from Will & Grace, seems about as close as you can get for a sitcom.
That's one thing to keep in mind - characters in tv shows generally are portrayed in a fairly stereotypical manner unless the show is about that type of character. If it's not Ally McBeal, the female lawyer will be a heartless b~%&~ who prioritizes her career above her family. If it's not the Big Bang Theory, geeky men have glasses and are entirely devoid of social skills.
Action movies are their own particular cess pool of crap. They also tend to lack women who have a function other than looking hot and being kidnapped. Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.
Eh? Which part? Television and movies are chock full of lazy writing that over-relies on stereotypes, which was one of the points I was trying to make.
That just sounds like lazy writing to pigeon hole everyone into a stereotype role IMHO.I always thought the Michael C. Hall character in Six Feet Under was a really good example of a gay character that didn't play to any stereotype.
Will, from Will & Grace, seems about as close as you can get for a sitcom.
That's one thing to keep in mind - characters in tv shows generally are portrayed in a fairly stereotypical manner unless the show is about that type of character. If it's not Ally McBeal, the female lawyer will be a heartless b~%&~ who prioritizes her career above her family. If it's not the Big Bang Theory, geeky men have glasses and are entirely devoid of social skills.
Action movies are their own particular cess pool of crap. They also tend to lack women who have a function other than looking hot and being kidnapped. Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.
I'm sure there is more to it than this, but so much of the media's output is really bad. The vast majority of stories and characters are just done badly.
EDIT: Nijaed by Sebastian
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I just seriously cannot believe how gender preference can mean ANYTHING to ANYONE, it's among the most negligible information I can learn about someone.
Agreed. Unless I'm myself romantically interested in the person in question or he/she tries to hit on me, I couldn't care less to what gender he/she is attracted.
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Good question.
My thoughts are on this are rather simple. The mainstream population is still not quite ready to have their world turned upside down by a tough action type guy that kisses other men.
Women have it a little easier in this reguard because you have more socially acceptable leeway as it were.
Major progress is being made all the time. Examples include brokeback mountain, the fact that homosexual charecters are mentioned AT ALL is major progress. So we have to put up with stupid sterotypes like the nelly queen from the Manaquine movies(loved the actor,hated the part) or the straight girl pretending to be lesbian so that people will leave her alone(carrie 2)
Mainstream TV is rife with either gay charecters OR openly homosexual actors. Neil Patrick Harris for one and the two guys on that Family comedy that I'm drawing a blank on right now. Alyson Hannigen who played a lesbian charecter on buffy.
The fact that DADT is now gone is major progress. The Hate Crime recognition in laws is major progress.
Remeber that we still only make up a very small part of the population, granted we are a very vocal part but we are a minority.
When your job is to entertain then you have to have MASS appeal in order to be succesful.
If you have a great movie with lots of action and a terrific plot do you really want your work to flop because all anyone will remeber is the two guys kissing at the end and being weirded out by it. I'm not even talking about the head cases that will say "that's discusting" or against nature or whatever I'm just talking about random joe or jane expecting the "happy" ending and then haveing it twisted in a way they didn't expect. Unless your into indy films thats not really gonna work as a marketing tool.
Bottom line unless it makes the studio money to do so it won't be done.
Great points Steven!!! But lets just be a little careful about calling anyone headcases. While I don't like or agree with those type of opinions we do have to try and be respectful. But overall those are really great points. But I would still love to see a major director try and have a masculine homosexual male lead.
I should have re-phrased the question. Name the actual actress / character. :)
Jeez, what is this; the Paizo Forum Lesbian Challenge? =P
I always thought the Michael C. Hall character in Six Feet Under was a really good example of a gay character that didn't play to any stereotype.
Wasn't he the poster boy for the self-hating-promiscuous-hypocrite stereotype?
Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.
Common? For awhile in the late 90s - early 00s, it seemed to me that men weren't allowed to be action heroes anymore. It was a wall-to-wall Buffy, Lara Croft, Xena, River Tam grrl-power fiesta.
For me, a better question is why are there so many gay men who live up to that stereotype. Granted, many of my gay and bi friends aren't particularly effeminate, aren't promiscuous and have little in the way of fashion sense (they are geeks after all) but I've also known some gay men who hit every gay stereotype as if they were self-validating goalposts. Having watched some of them come out of the closet, I'm often mystified how/why they suddenly develop a jubilant disposition, an effeminate demeanour and start talking with a lisp. Is there some sort of night-class available to learn all this stuff? It baffles me honestly.
Gay people have statistically "healthier" relationships, and have a massively lower divorce rate, straight people could learn a thing or two.
I wouldn't be too sure about that one Karl. gays have just recently started to enjoy the right to marry so the raw data is still too young to truly compare. I am aware of instances where couples have been together for 30+ years just like het couples but the marriage term will bring a new light to things. I'm not one for selling the straight couples short on their devotion or commitment to their partners anymore than being gay makes someone a better couple. Granted because marriage is so new and was for so long unattainable gays have treasured it a bit more than their het counter parts but familiarity will breed comtempt.
Modern family is the show you are thinking of Steven.
Thank You, never watched it just heard about it.I just seriously cannot believe how gender preference can mean ANYTHING to ANYONE, it's among the most negligible information I can learn about someone.
When more people share your enlightend veiw then the world as a whole will be a better place and women won't be paid 15% less than their male counter parts or it won't automatically be assumed that the guy doing your hair at a beauty salon is gay or any other gender preconcieved notions.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I should have re-phrased the question. Name the actual actress / character. :)Jeez, what is this; the Paizo Forum Lesbian Challenge? =P
I always thought the Michael C. Hall character in Six Feet Under was a really good example of a gay character that didn't play to any stereotype.Wasn't he the poster boy for the self-hating-promiscuous-hypocrite stereotype?
*shrug* I guess that's not one of the common stereotypes to me. Plus, I always felt that the character was defined more by what he did and what he wanted rather than his sexual orientation, which seemed to be the point of the discussion in the first place. If you'd like to start naming gay characters that don't fit the stereotypes above, I can try pigeon-holing them into stereotypes too.
Also, his partner was a gay cop, and not particularly effeminite either. However, maybe there's some gay cop stereotype of which I'm unaware and into which he fits.
Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.Common? For awhile in the late 90s - early 00s, it seemed to me that men weren't allowed to be action heroes anymore. It was a wall-to-wall Buffy, Lara Croft, Xena, River Tam grrl-power fiesta.
Yeah...nothing says respect me as a female protagonist like Lara Croft. It's definitely her skills, intelligence, and ass-kicking that are the draw, not her huge rack. I'll give you Buffy and Xena. River Tam is her own special type of useless stereotype - the mystical mentally challenged.
Your right Jeremy sorry. I will try to be more careful in my future posts. That one sortta slipped outta my filter.
Sam Adama from Caprica. In my opinion, the show failed (was cancelled) because it understood character development and subtlety and lacked enough boobs and explosions.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sam Adama from Caprica. In my opinion, the show failed (was cancelled) because it understood character development and subtlety and lacked enough boobs and explosions.
THANK YOU! I knew there was a gay character that was an action hero-esque badass, but couldn't remember exactly who it was. The setting was also great in that it put the character into a society where sexual orientation was clearly not a big deal.
Spartucus: Gods of the Arena, but then you know those Romans.
The simplest answer is the easiest one: gay people, like any group upon whose behavior and appearance a majority has hung their expectations, are depicted in much (not all) media in ways that match those expectations, because media is consumer-driven.
If you're a producer of a show or movie, and you want to appeal to the masses, you will probably ask your writers to make the Cheerleader a mean girl, the Jock either a dufus or a jerk, the Gamer a fat greasy guy, the Career Woman a ball-buster, and the Gay Man probably will be flamboyant or the Lead Girl's Best Friend.
It's mass marketing. There's not a lot of mystery to it, really.
Now, living our whole lives here in the San Francisco Bay Area, my wife and I have a lot of friends of all stripes, including gay men and lesbians. My experience has taught me that people come in all sorts, and on rare occasions actually do act similarly to the stereotypes you see on TV (just as, as much as I hate to admit it, there are some smelly gamers out there). That doesn't make stereotyping itself right to do, and it certainly doesn't make it okay to bore us to death with the same character over and over.
But the fact remains that a memorable character is going to get repeat business, and media is commerce.
Also, his partner was a gay cop, and not particularly effeminite either. However, maybe there's some gay cop stereotype of which I'm unaware and into which he fits.
See, I thought Mathew St. Patrick's portrayal of a well-adjusted, loving and self-assured masculine gay man was much more laudable than Michael C. Hall's character who, although a complex and engaging character, was nonetheless pitiable because his homosexuality instead lead to self-loathing and self-destructive behaviour.
Granted, female protagonists in action movies have become more common, but the portrayal of females in action movies is almost universally damsels in distress.Or the opposite, an emotionless, b*~%-kicker who is only out-matched by the male star.Good point.
Reminds me the first time I watched the Matrix, and I misheard a key line in the film. Right as Neo was doing the helicopter rescue thing and the dude in the ship says "he's the one!" I heard the line as "She's the one" and thought they were referencing Trinity. I was awestruck that they'd build the movie up around Neo only to have her be the true hero.
Then I realized I misheard the line, and was bummed.
Reminds me the first time I watched the Matrix, and I misheard a key line in the film. Right as Neo was doing the helicopter rescue thing and the dude in the ship says "he's the one!" I heard the line as "She's the one" and thought they were referencing Trinity. I was awestruck that they'd build the movie up around Neo only to have her be the true hero.
Heh. With some obvious-only-in-hindsight foreshadowing, that would have been an awesome twist. =)
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For me, a better question is why are there so many gay men who live up to that stereotype. Granted, many of my gay and bi friends aren't particularly effeminate, aren't promiscuous and have little in the way of fashion sense (they are geeks after all) but I've also known some gay men who hit every gay stereotype as if they were self-validating goalposts. Having watched some of them come out of the closet, I'm often mystified how/why they suddenly develop a jubilant disposition, an effeminate demeanour and start talking with a lisp. Is there some sort of night-class available to learn all this stuff? It baffles me honestly.
This is an interesting question.
Actually, it's two interesting questions, so I'll take them one at a time.
First: The general question of gay people who do seem to fit stereotypes. Some of it has to do with visibility. If you walk through a crowded shopping mall and see a gay man with particularly effeminate mannerisms, some people might say to themselves, "It's so easy to spot gay people; look at how they act!" But, of course, they didn't notice the other 5 gay men who blended into the crowd. In other words, our attention is drawn to those who stand out from those around them.
The second question is an interesting one, because I know exactly what you are talking about. There is a phenomena I have observed with men who come out of the closet - some of them seem to change overnight in their mannerisms, dress, and behavior. I think there are a few reasons why this happens. One, chances are all their lives they have been carefully censoring their mannerisms in order to fit in, and feel liberated at no longer needing to do so. There's definitely a novelty to being able to act out gay stereotypes. More often, however, I think it is a manifestation of people trying to adjust to a new "crowd". Much the same way people in the closet try to "fit in" with the straight world, newly out people are often concerned with how well they fit in with the gay crowds, and feel like they need to "play the part." Of course, many people in this situation eventually learn they are better off just being themselves, and associating with people who like them for who they really are, not the persona they put in to fit in with the straight crowds or the gay crowds. Lastly, however, there are also those who simply have an effeminate set of mannerisms and that's who they really are - and that's okay, too.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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See, I thought Mathew St. Patrick's portrayal of a well-adjusted, loving and self-assured masculine gay man was much more laudable than Michael C. Hall's character who, although a complex and engaging character, was nonetheless pitiable because his homosexuality instead lead to self-loathing and self-destructive behaviour.
Interesting. When I think of the self-loathing/self-destructive gay behavior, I typically think of the minister/moral crusader type who persecutes gays and receives his comeuppance/karmic punishment when his orientation is revealed. What I liked about Six Feet Under was that, even though the arc you describe is something of a stereotype, it wasn't a stereotype I had seen played out in such detail before. I thought Michael C. Hall did a great job with it - his character never seemed to be solely about his sexual orientation. It was equally about his occupation, his family, and his place in the community. It's true that these were each colored by his orientation, but I never felt like he was the GAY funeral director. I felt he was a funeral director, who was also gay, and faced challenges relating to being gay.
More often, however, I think it is a manifestation of people trying to adjust to a new "crowd". Much the same way people in the closet try to "fit in" with the straight world, newly out people are often concerned with how well they fit in with the gay crowds, and feel...
That jives pretty well with the answers I've received from my non-effiminate gay friends. I've never had the guts to ask the same question to those I've seen go through this process.
Okay, so a good follow up question might be, where's the effiminate, jubilant, fashionista gay man stereotype come from in the first place? Why do so many in the gay community aspire to and embrace it so readily rather than some other persona?
It was equally about his occupation, his family, and his place in the community. It's true that these were each colored by his orientation, but I never felt like he was the GAY funeral director. I felt he was a funeral director, who was also gay, and faced challenges relating to being gay.
Interesting. I have the opposite impression of him. Because his homosexuality lead him to be so terribly maladjusted in every other facet of his life, it seemed to me that it strongly overshadowed everything else about the character. In effect I felt he was a primarily a self-loathing GAY man who happened to be a funeral director with a quirky family.
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More often, however, I think it is a manifestation of people trying to adjust to a new "crowd". Much the same way people in the closet try to "fit in" with the straight world, newly out people are often concerned with how well they fit in with the gay crowds, and feel...That jives pretty well with the answers I've received from my non-effiminate gay friends. I've never had the guts to ask the same question to those I've seen go through this process.
Okay, so a good follow up question might be, where's the effiminate, jubilant, fashionista gay man stereotype come from in the first place? Why do so many in the gay community aspire to and embrace it so readily rather than some other persona?
It's a pretty old stereotype. I think if you go back in recent history (anywhere from the Victorian age through the 1950s), there were those who could live passably in the straight world without anyone suspecting and those who could never quite fit in. (Think of the "sticking out in a crowd" example I gave earlier - as far as many back then were concerned, those were the only gay people.) I think that's where the stereotype comes from, and it's hung on rather stubbornly.
That's my take, although someone who has studied social history more thoroughly than I have might have a more elaborate or well-established answer.
My own personal theory, remember, I am just a poodle…
Whatever makes us attracted to a particular sex or both sexes and the strength of that attraction is somehow linked with other attractions and non-attractions. People attracted to men are more likely to like bubble baths. People attracted to women are more likely to like cars. Note just like most everything else, this is not a 100% all the time probability.
I would be curious, if we looked deep enough if we found in non-effeminate gay men other 'usual' female things they like. The same across the four corners.
I consider myself bi, but I am not split right down the middle. I am really more attracted to women. I do not think I am effeminate, no one has ever accused me of being gay. I am not really into cars, I have a very casual interest in sports and I love to scrap book.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sam Adama from Caprica. In my opinion, the show failed (was cancelled) because it understood character development and subtlety and lacked enough boobs and explosions.THANK YOU! I knew there was a gay character that was an action hero-esque badass, but couldn't remember exactly who it was. The setting was also great in that it put the character into a society where sexual orientation was clearly not a big deal.
Amen. I also liked how they handled Clarice's poly family. Both were just there.
Here's one to ponder. AYBS Mr. Humphries. When the show came out he was derried as a gay stereotype. By the time the show ended, he was hailed as one of the first gay characters.
(Personally, I found Wendy Richard much more attractive than the page six girls Mr. Grace had around)
I'd also include Gaeta and Hoshi from BSG itself, though Gaeta seems to be bi.
To use an older pair, how about Misters Went and Kidd from Diamonds are Forever? While the one was effemenent (sp?) the other wasn't.
I could include Soap...
Open question. How come every time you see homosexuals portrayed in media, it's always either the gossipy effeminate queen, or the effeminate sassy fashion wise best friend of a female role? Not all gays are effeminate, nor are we always sassy and fashion wise. Is it just more palatable to the public, to see us in not so serious portrayals and stereotypes? Why can't we have an action hero for example who just happens to be gay, without it being a main focus?
I think you will, eventually, get the action hero who just happens to be gay; it seems to me that, based on seeing how media has dealt in the past with other minority groups, that being stereotypes and caricatures is (unfortunately) a stepping stone between being feared/reviled and true mainstream acceptance.
Which may not be much consolation right now, but I think it's getting better all the time.
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Some of the examples presented (Are You Being Served, Will and Grace, etc) raise a question.
Is it better to have a gay stereotype on television, or no gay people at all? I think that's why those shows are sometimes celebrated the way they are. Maybe the portrayal was stereotypical, but it's remarkable that those shows presented gay characters at all.
As for whether they are a net positive for the exposure, or a negative for having reinforced stereotypes, I struggle to come up with an answer.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Captain Jack Harkness from Doctor Who and Torchwood yet...
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
… that being stereotypes and caricatures is (unfortunately) a stepping stone between being feared/reviled and true mainstream acceptance.
Does that mean we will have Gayspoitation films?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Captain Jack Harkness from Doctor Who and Torchwood yet...
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
I left Jack Harkness/John Hart off my list because they're so over the top. I'm not sure how 'in your face' RTD mean in his writing, but Jack is so flamboyant that he teeters on characture at times. (Other times he stops teetering and dives right over the edge.
(I've heard stories that John Barrowman can also be OtT, but I'm commenting on the character, I don't know much about JB, Though him as Cap would have been intersting)
I thought Ianto trying to explain his feelings for Jack to his family was well handled though.
… that being stereotypes and caricatures is (unfortunately) a stepping stone between being feared/reviled and true mainstream acceptance.Does that mean we will have Gayspoitation films?
You might!
... although I think you could make a pretty good argument that the equivalent is happening now in reality TV. Your Project Runways and Queer Eyes and what not.
Hollywood/the media dumb stuff down and stereo type and short hand everything.
All Nazi's have perfect middle-class English accents.
All Germans if they are not Nazis are arrogant blond giants that are bad guys anyway.
The French are slimy womanisers or cheese eating surrender monkeys.
All Actual English people live on country estates and are called George Winston Smythe and are bumbling and inept.
All Australians are either villains or just over eager and stupid.
All Arabs are terrorists or if not Noble Savages
All Jewish people are doctors or want to be doctors or movie producers.
All South Americans are just a horde waiting to cross that border.
The truth is Hollywood in trying to portray the American ideal is innately hostile to every thing that is not "American" or the "accepted ideal the American way of life".
Hollywood is also populated by stupid people with rat cunning so they dumb stuff down so that they can understand it.
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If it's not the Big Bang Theory, geeky men have glasses and are entirely devoid of social skills.
I sense irony. As if a hundred thousand geeks all cried at once and were silenced.
But, we're not talking about geeks here.
It comes down to this: Hollywood has a proven track record that stereotypes a) sell and b) are easier to write. The non-stereotypical character? THOSE are the ones that win Oscar awards because the actors have to somehow bring out those characteristics without the use of stereotypical mannerisms (proof in the pudding: Tom Hanks first Oscar as Andrew Beckett in Philadelphia). And even in those cases, some stereotypes still come in. You know Will is gay in Will & Grace because a) he keeps saying he is and b) all his gay friends are flamboyantly gay.
The only thing is, the gay stereotype is the most noticeable. Many because you are (finally) gaining acceptance in the mass media. Sitcoms live and breath by stereotypes (Big Bang Theory, as much as I love the show, is the most noticeable). From the crotchety old man, the bumbling/clueless husband, the smart-ass wife, the smarter than parents kids (or dumber than s!$! kids), the oversexed grandmother, etc., etc. Think about it this way. Everytime you see a "new" character on TV, and the show becomes a hit, how long until there are thirty clones of that character on prime-time (geeky/sexy/goth lab tech)?
Do not denigrate the stereotype (unless it is meant in a truly disrespectful/hateful connotation)! Rejoice and celebrate that you have come so far that the media now accepts you as a legitimate "type" for stories and media!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Some of the examples presented (Are You Being Served, Will and Grace, etc) raise a question.
Is it better to have a gay stereotype on television, or no gay people at all? I think that's why those shows are sometimes celebrated the way they are. Maybe the portrayal was stereotypical, but it's remarkable that those shows presented gay characters at all.
As for whether they are a net positive for the exposure, or a negative for having reinforced stereotypes, I struggle to come up with an answer.
Counter-question. What did you think of the portrayal of Will from Will & Grace? Jack was very much the stereotypical gay character, but I thought the show at least made a solid attempt* to not have Will be a stock gay character. I thought Will was a good character to introduce a gay lead in a sitcom, but not have his gayness be formulaic and obnoxious.
So, I guess my answer is that it works the same way as for other minorities in media. They start out as stereotypes (I wish I could think of a token African American character from an early show - the closest that comes to mind is Lionel Jefferson from All in the Family, but he's not really very stereotypy), move to shows focused on that particular minority (The Cosby Show, Jeffersons), and eventually reach the point where shows have such minority characters and rarely, if ever, comment upon it (24 is a pretty good example with regards to African American characters, particularly given that it was in circulation prior to Obama).
Are You Being Served and Will & Grace are the middle step above; Caprica or (so I've heard) Modern Family are examples of the end step. It seems to me** that, at least as far as television is concerned, gay characters are appearing more regularly and their orientation is not the primary focus of such appearances.
*Well, as solid of an attempt as a sitcom can make to have any character be anything other than a broad stereotype. The format is pretty limiting in that regards.
**Which is based upon watching the shows I referenced above, and not really basing my television viewing on the presence/absence of such characters. The only show where I find the gay theme to be horrific (no pun intended) is True Blood, because the vampires = gays is a stupid, stupid metaphor that doesn't work on so many levels (e.g., gays don't spread gayness like vampires spread vampireness, gays don't need to feed on non-gays to survive, the reasons for discriminating against vampires largely make sense (uh, they kill and eat people, discriminating against them makes a lot of freaking sense), etc.)