Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Rolling 1's on Cure spells


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Does it bug anyone else that you can cast CMW and roll all 1's and heal 5HP, but also cast CLW and roll max and cure 9HP (assuming same level). To me, as a player and GM, it is annoying to watch people poke each other with a cure-stick 50 times in a row because they keep rolling low. It is also frustrating as a player, while in a time of emergency, to cast that cure spell to avoid your ally's demise during battle, and roll 1's.

Sometimes I wish that the Cure spells were more reliable.

Do any of you have any house rules that address this situation?

What are your general thoughts on the matter?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having played 1e and 2e AD&D, the healing spells since 3e came out have all been considerably more reliable, including a level-based component to add even if the dice come up all 1s. So I consider the issue fixed.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Having played 1e and 2e AD&D, the healing spells since 3e came out have all been considerably more reliable, including a level-based component to add even if the dice come up all 1s. So I consider the issue fixed.

I see... I only go back to 3.5, but I can see where you are coming from.


I can't recall when we started using this house rule. But we reroll 1's for healing and Hp when leveling.


Are you the GM? If so, consider just ruling that cure spells give a static amount of HP back.

I've even considered doing this with Cure potions — and making the quantity of HP returned function as potency, so you could drink just a sip from a more potent potion and it would give a bit of healing back.

At the end of the day, nobody really likes doing the cure paperwork (unless they do) so I always like to keep things simple.


Evil Lincoln wrote:

Are you the GM? If so, consider just ruling that cure spells give a static amount of HP back.

I've even considered doing this with Cure potions — and making the quantity of HP returned function as potency, so you could drink just a sip from a more potent potion and it would give a bit of healing back.

At the end of the day, nobody really likes doing the cure paperwork (unless they do) so I always like to keep things simple.

Would it be too much to just maximize all cure spells?


I've never really thought about it as a problem, but here's some potential house rules off the top of my head:

Add your caster level per die (so CMW is 2 hits of 1d8+CL instead of one hit of 2d8+CL) - this would increase healing across the board, and you might need to step up damage a bit, but I don't think it'd be a huge change.

Out of combat, always take average. Speeds up out-of combat healing, without any real drawbacks.

Step the die size down to 1d4+2 per spell level. So CLW is 1d4+CL+2, CMW is 2d4+CL+4, etc. By reducing randomness, the higher level spells are more likely to be better.


Amen.

Nothing like channeling to heal the party and getting 3 on 3d6.

It's fusterating, but it's just part of the game.


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:
Would it be too much to just maximize all cure spells?

Like everything else in this thread, that depends on your game. Does the GM think that would be overpowered? Taking the average roll is technically not "better" than rolling, balance wise, it's just more predictable.

If there's a cleric in the party who invested in Maximize spell for some reason (it's hypothetical!) then this kind of house rule would be unfair! It all depends.

But, in theory, the OP said randomness is the problem. The cleanest solution is to take the average roll; balance is the same but the randomness is gone. You could also maximize, but that increases the general effectiveness of the spells, and looks like power creep.

A middle path would be to discard any roll below half. That's the rule I use for HP, and it retains some randomness while creating discrete "bands" of results so that a higher level spell will roll higher. I don't think it works as well with cure as it does with HD, but hey.


A decent houserule could be to enhance cure spells with the heal skill, exact mechanic varies wildly. Often after examining the wounds as a full round action, and the possibility to take 10 outside of combat makes this a good option between combats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:
MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:
Would it be too much to just maximize all cure spells?

Like everything else in this thread, that depends on your game. Does the GM think that would be overpowered? Taking the average roll is technically not "better" than rolling, balance wise, it's just more predictable.

It also includes the benefit of higher level spells always curing more than lower level spells, if that's important (which, based on the OP, may be).


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that you can cast CMW and roll all 1's and heal 5HP, but also cast CLW and roll max and cure 9HP (assuming same level)...What are your general thoughts on the matter?

I think without rolling 1s, rolling 8s (or 20s when applicable, for that matter) wouldn't feel half as good.


You may rule that any natural 1 on the healing dice is treated as 2 or 3 if you dont like the current rules.-


Maybe part of my problem is a party of level 7 characters still toting around a couple of wands of CLW zapping the pain away, rolling several times in a row per character after combat...

Osirion

A game-wide change would be to just have all curing and damaging rolls inflict half damage automatically, instead of rolling dice. (Or half+1, so 5 hp for 1d8, 3 hp for 1d4, etc.) This removes damage rolls (or curing rolls) entirely from the game, which can speed up gameplay.

For a more personal and less game-affecting choice, allow the player to take a Trait or Feat that allows them to reroll X number of cure spell rolls per day. (For a Trait, allow them to reroll only a single die that rolled a 1 and only 3+Wis mod times / day. For a Feat, allow them to reroll any roll made for a cure light, moderate, serious or critical wounds spell, or any of the mass cure wounds spells, basically allowing them to roll twice on any cure wounds spell and take the best roll.)

The same Trait or Feat could be made more generally useful by allowing it to apply to any specific spell (or line of spells), such as scorching ray or magic missile or the summon monster line.

Andoran

CL(X) wands are pretty much the worst thing about PFRPG (and 3.5) in every concievable way. So much is wrong with them that there's really no good jumping off point other than simply banning them. My humble opinion.


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:
Maybe part of my problem is a party of level 7 characters still toting around a couple of wands of CLW zapping the pain away, rolling several times in a row per character after combat...

Unfortunately, this is the most cost-effective way to heal injuries. As such, it will always be the go-to method.

750 gold buys you 50d8+50 healing, (although, I've always wondered how 1st level clerics are churning these things out). That's an average of 15 gold per 5.5 hp healed. Worst case, you're paying 15 gold per 2hp, best case is 15 gold per 9hp.

A 2nd level spell, by a third level caster is 4,500 gp for 100d8+150 healing. You're averaging 12hp per 90 gold spent... worst case is 5hp, best case is 19hp.

With these numbers, the best case for 2nd level wand is barely better than the worst case for the 1st level wand. One average 12hp poke with the 2nd level wand costs as much as 6 pokes with the 1st level... for the same gold outlay, you can heal 12hp or 33hp.

So, as long as this economy is in place, that's what it going to happen. Now, things get better if you make a restriction on who is actually crafting wands. Let's say wands are all made by 5th level casters.

Cure Light Wounds: 1d8+5, costs 3,750 gold. Heals on average 9.5hp/75 gold (8gp/hp)

Cure Moderate Wounds: 2d8+5, costs 7,500 gold. Heals on average 14 hp/150 gold (9gp/hp)

Cure Serious Wounds: 3d8+5, costs 11,250 gold. Heals on average 18.5 hp/225 gold (12gp/hp)

In these cases it still makes the most fiscal sense to use wands of Cure Light, but the difference is small enough people might actually use Cure Serious, as it can have applications where more healing faster could be worth the premium.

So, if the issue is with the wands, you can tweak the economy and fix that problem pretty easily. Just make bigger heals more cost effective.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Marshall Jansen wrote:

although, I've always wondered how 1st level clerics are churning these things out

....

So, as long as this economy is in place, that's what it going to happen. Now, things get better if you make a restriction on who is actually crafting wands. Let's say wands are all made by 5th level casters.

The restriction is still there. You can always enchant items at a lower level than your current caster level. Those CLW wands are likely put out by 5th level casters, but only putting in a bit of "oomph", so enchanted at level 1.

The difference being 750 gp vs 3750 gp.

Looked at another way, it is the difference between buying 5 wands for the cost of your 1 wand.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Another alternative (and one I've considered on occasion) is to have in-combat and out-of-combat healing function differently. Basically, you add some kind of "take 20" mechanic to healing.

For example, perhaps you make players roll for healing in-combat, but maximize all healing out of combat. Or perhaps you allow out-of-combat healing to be rolled twice taking the higher result. The overall effect though also has the benefit of reducing the 10-minute adventuring day somewhat as well.

I have to think long and hard though about the previous idea of tying it into a heal check. I like that mechanic thematically, though I don't know how I'd implement it, yet.


Rolling 1's suck all the time not just with cure spells.

If you want more average healing rolls convert each d8 into 2d4 you get a 2-8 range with an average of 5. Example Cure Moderate Wounds cast by a 7th level Cleric he rolls 4d4+7.

A house rule I have used for awhile is out of combat healing is maximized it makes the higher level characters burn through Cure Light Wounds wands with out rolling all those dice. I don't have the breakdown of cost per average amount cured anymore but I did the work awhile ago a CL 1 wand of Cure Light Wounds is the best healing per gold piece investment out of combat. For in combat healing bigger is always better though because your spending an action to use the wand and not do something else.


Allow them take the average value out of combat.-


MisterSlanky wrote:
Another alternative (and one I've considered on occasion) is to have in-combat and out-of-combat healing function differently.

What about this:

In combat players have the option to roll, or take average results.

Out of combat, the players get max healing.


My people still roll for their own spells, but for wands, we just take the average. CLW = 5, CMW = 12, CSW = 18, CCW = 25. Makes it so much easier - 'You're down 56 - that's 11 charges - okay, now you're down 1'.

Lately, they've started to do average for channeling too, 9 dice of channelling equals 31 for everyone.

Oh, and if you have a real problem with them rolling ones, just let them take the feat out of the 3.5 divine splat book (don't remember the exact title) augmented healing. Adds +2 per level of the spell. So a CLW maxes out at d8+7, Mass CLW at d8+20(at 10th level). It's the one feat every healer has to have.


Im like the randomness of rolling for healing effect, if my character (Human Cleric of Sarenrae) were to roll all ones then he'd see it as a message from his goddess, maybe he hasn't been devout enough? maybe she's testing him?
If he were to Roll all sixes then he'd see it as his goddess being pleased with him.
Its all part of the Roleplaying experience.


Poor 1's, nobody likes them... except when the enemy just critically missed you.... or failed its saving roll versus your combat maneuver/spell/whatever. By definition 1's are just pure evil! kill the ones!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111


If you don't like your roll for healin or hp you get half the dice plus one

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My house rule for CLW- cast as a standard action: as is, 1d8+1; cast as full-round action: 1d6+3; cast as 10 rounds (basically take 10, out of rounds): 1d4+5. assume potions, scrolls and wand made the slow way. Other C-W spells scale accordingly.


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that you can cast CMW and roll all 1's and heal 5HP, but also cast CLW and roll max and cure 9HP (assuming same level). To me, as a player and GM, it is annoying to watch people poke each other with a cure-stick 50 times in a row because they keep rolling low. It is also frustrating as a player, while in a time of emergency, to cast that cure spell to avoid your ally's demise during battle, and roll 1's.

Sometimes I wish that the Cure spells were more reliable.

Do any of you have any house rules that address this situation?

What are your general thoughts on the matter?

What you could do is offer the roller of the low rolls the chance to let the DM reroll for him, but he has to take whatever the DM rolls. Normally the rolls come out to at least average this way.


Our house rule is that when someone rolls a one on healing, they read it as a one.

Greg

Osirion

Mosaic wrote:
My house rule for CLW- cast as a standard action: as is, 1d8+1; cast as full-round action: 1d6+3; cast as 10 rounds (basically take 10, out of rounds): 1d4+5. assume potions, scrolls and wand made the slow way. Other C-W spells scale accordingly.

That's a neat idea, allowing someone to 'take 10' with a spell.


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that you can cast CMW and roll all 1's and heal 5HP, but also cast CLW and roll max and cure 9HP (assuming same level). To me, as a player and GM, it is annoying to watch people poke each other with a cure-stick 50 times in a row because they keep rolling low. It is also frustrating as a player, while in a time of emergency, to cast that cure spell to avoid your ally's demise during battle, and roll 1's.

Sometimes I wish that the Cure spells were more reliable.

Do any of you have any house rules that address this situation?

What are your general thoughts on the matter?

What you could do is offer the roller of the low rolls the chance to let the DM reroll for him, but he has to take whatever the DM rolls. Normally the rolls come out to at least average this way.


My issue with static heals is that as a main healer you won't be rolling nearly as much, and rolling is half the fun, some things to consider certainly are an additional flat bonus to the amount healed/ level, the Augment Healing feat is a great example; +2 hp healed per spell level to all conjuration [healing] spells, ie a Clvl5 casting CMW would heal 2d8+9


Bobson wrote:

I've never really thought about it as a problem, but here's some potential house rules off the top of my head:

Add your caster level per die (so CMW is 2 hits of 1d8+CL instead of one hit of 2d8+CL) - this would increase healing across the board, and you might need to step up damage a bit, but I don't think it'd be a huge change.

Out of combat, always take average. Speeds up out-of combat healing, without any real drawbacks.

Step the die size down to 1d4+2 per spell level. So CLW is 1d4+CL+2, CMW is 2d4+CL+4, etc. By reducing randomness, the higher level spells are more likely to be better.

This sounds like a better idea. Having the Caster Level bonus scale with the level of the spell. CLW = 1d8+CL CMW = 2d8+2xCL, CSW = 3d8+3xCL...

I've played in a game that substituted 1d8 for 1d4+4, but it seemed to increase the complexity more than anything.


Bobson wrote:
Out of combat, always take average. Speeds up out-of combat healing, without any real drawbacks.

Based on this thought I implemented this last night, with my player's enthusiastic agreement (except the one currently suffering from mummy rot, so if a healing spell manages to work on him they roll it).


Torinath wrote:


I've played in a game that substituted 1d8 for 1d4+4, but it seemed to increase the complexity more than anything.

our gaming tables all use 1D4+4+CL(max 5) for CLW, with the 1D4+4 replacing the normal 1D8 (thusly Cure mod is 2D4+8, Serious is 3D4+12, and Critical is 4D4+16), makes the math a tad bit more tedious, but it's nice that you're guarenteed at LEAST 6 hitpoints from your CLW potion, versus 2.


If you dislike this kind of randomness, are you also peeved by the fact that damage dice can vary wildly? I mean, rolling the same d8 for damage and obtaining 1 all the time...
And what about the HD on which some people keep rolling 1s (see those threads about that very issue)?

One such house-rule that could be used with healing (and damage) is the concept of hero points (see APG), of which you could use one to reroll one damage/healing roll (or take the average).
YMMV, of course, as some DMs could be generous with them while others less so.

Remember, though, that if you use a house-rule for healing wounds (and/or causing them), the balance issue is that enemies would be able to do the same.


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:

Does it bug anyone else that you can cast CMW and roll all 1's and heal 5HP, but also cast CLW and roll max and cure 9HP (assuming same level). To me, as a player and GM, it is annoying to watch people poke each other with a cure-stick 50 times in a row because they keep rolling low. It is also frustrating as a player, while in a time of emergency, to cast that cure spell to avoid your ally's demise during battle, and roll 1's.

Sometimes I wish that the Cure spells were more reliable.

Do any of you have any house rules that address this situation?

What are your general thoughts on the matter?

Maybe the God(s) just aren't seeing fit to bestow their blessings on this occasion - Still thats the advantage of a pantheon, it's a worshipper's market.

More seriously. Houserule it, I like the randomness of healing as it means it's not a sure fix and you can just rely on it and your character should learn the first rule of defence - Be where the weapon is not!


It's a game, hence the die rolls... Sure, 2 CLW are better than 1 CMW, but you don't always have the luxury of having time on your side. And IN COMBAT you probably like 1 CMW better than 2 consecutive CLW, no?

In one of my (3.5) campaigns the cleric had a wand of regeneration. Healed 1hp/round, max 15. Waaaay better than those CLWs, but kinda useless in combat when your tank was going down, or your caster needed some urgent help while being surrounded =P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe a new feat is needed?

Destined Medicine

Requirements: 1 rank in Heal, ability to cast cure light wounds.

Benefit: Whenever you roll dice to heal hit points, whether from a spell, magic item, Heal skill check, or channel energy ability, you may roll twice and use the higher result.


I like the idea of a feat which makes cure spells more reliable. I will add that to my list of custom feats. I also like taking time to examine wounds increasing the effectiveness of healing, but I would base that on the character's healing skill.

I have to be honest though. I'm generally not a fan of backpacks full of cure light wands. That's one of the cheesiest things in the game. In my campaigns you can find wands, but they are not easily available. They tend to get snapped up by local NPCs when they are created, or held in reserve by temple clerics who provide healing for the poor, or for a fee.

Even when one comes up for sale in a magic shop, it's likely to have some relatively low random number of charges left.

But I feel that way about most magic items. In my worlds magic items are not like candy at your local Walmart. They are highly desirable things that rich NPCs enjoy buying, and wizards or clerics who make them enjoy hanging onto for their own use. My campaigns don't have sweatshop factories in another country where low-level clerics mass-produce wands to fill the shelves of the local 7-11.


brassbaboon wrote:

I like the idea of a feat which makes cure spells more reliable. I will add that to my list of custom feats. I also like taking time to examine wounds increasing the effectiveness of healing, but I would base that on the character's healing skill.

I have to be honest though. I'm generally not a fan of backpacks full of cure light wands. That's one of the cheesiest things in the game. In my campaigns you can find wands, but they are not easily available. They tend to get snapped up by local NPCs when they are created, or held in reserve by temple clerics who provide healing for the poor, or for a fee.

Even when one comes up for sale in a magic shop, it's likely to have some relatively low random number of charges left.

But I feel that way about most magic items. In my worlds magic items are not like candy at your local Walmart. They are highly desirable things that rich NPCs enjoy buying, and wizards or clerics who make them enjoy hanging onto for their own use. My campaigns don't have sweatshop factories in another country where low-level clerics mass-produce wands to fill the shelves of the local 7-11.

Yeah, I only sell wands with a max of 25 charges, and most that are found have less. 50 charges is just insane to me. Really the whole thing with wands is a little unsatisfying and cheesy. I've considered just scrapping them entirely before, but they really are pretty necessary to get through an adventure path.


brassbaboon wrote:

I like the idea of a feat which makes cure spells more reliable. I will add that to my list of custom feats. I also like taking time to examine wounds increasing the effectiveness of healing, but I would base that on the character's healing skill.

I have to be honest though. I'm generally not a fan of backpacks full of cure light wands. That's one of the cheesiest things in the game. In my campaigns you can find wands, but they are not easily available. They tend to get snapped up by local NPCs when they are created, or held in reserve by temple clerics who provide healing for the poor, or for a fee.

Even when one comes up for sale in a magic shop, it's likely to have some relatively low random number of charges left.

But I feel that way about most magic items. In my worlds magic items are not like candy at your local Walmart. They are highly desirable things that rich NPCs enjoy buying, and wizards or clerics who make them enjoy hanging onto for their own use. My campaigns don't have sweatshop factories in another country where low-level clerics mass-produce wands to fill the shelves of the local 7-11.

+1!! :D


In a campaign I ran several years ago (2e) the party found a box with bandages and 3 jars of salve. You apply the salve to the bandages and fix the bandages to a wound. After some time (I think an hour) the bandage/salve would heal 20 HPs. Each jar had 10 uses of salve and the bandages could be reused after cleaning them.
Not a good option in combat, but it kept the party healer from using up wands and spells to heal everyone after combat. Keeping those wands and spells available for combat situations.
Also having a set HP amount healed with each bandage I think they rather liked.

-Flea


roll 2d4, not d8 and have more average rolls


MysticNumber ServitorOfAsmodeus wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Another alternative (and one I've considered on occasion) is to have in-combat and out-of-combat healing function differently.

What about this:

In combat players have the option to roll, or take average results.

Out of combat, the players get max healing.

I do this, it works out pretty well. My reasoning is out of combat, you can sit down and really let the magic sink in.

Qadira

What my group normally does is have two people roll, the person casting the heal and someone other than who is being healed. We then take the better of the two rolls.

As a side note, we max HP for both PCs and monsters (and companions, npcs, etc.)


I think it's just as unfair to the rogue that got sneak attack and only rolled 1's on all his rolls or the wizard you places a fireball really well and only did 5 damage oh 2 after reflex saves. No I would not change the randomness of it. If you are waiting to emergency heal then you are not healing correctly. The only true emergency heal spell is Heal.


If the randomnes bothers you that much buy a maximized wand of CLW. You are paying (a premum) for the knowledge that each charge gives you 9 hp of healing every time and no more 1's.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I once gave the party a magic goblet that maximized healing potions drunk from it. This made drinking a potion a full round action (one move action to pour it into the goblet, one move action to drink from the goblet).

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Rolling 1's on Cure spells All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.