There should definitely be a reference to pickles somewhere in the final Gunslinger writeup.
LOL. I wouldn't count on it, but I will eat a pickle in honor of the idea at every anniversary of Ultimate Combat's release. How about that?
I'm thinking a deed too, but I want to play around with a few things and talk with the other designers.Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.
I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.
Thanks for sharing...pickles.
W00t! Pickle slingers unite!
And just for the record... I DO think it should be some kind of deed.
Not a Gun mechanic.Possible a 6th level entry deed (to keep dipping out of the equation)
Im hoping you make it a 1 grit reserve deed and not a 1 grit per use, because otherwise it will be a one combat per day kinda thing.
Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.
I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.
Thanks for sharing...pickles.
W00t! Pickle slingers unite!
And just for the record... I DO think it should be some kind of deed.
Not a Gun mechanic.Possible a 6th level entry deed (to keep dipping out of the equation)
Eh. That will penalize the Gunslinger by not allowing the benefit of Rapid Shot until 6th level.
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I'm thinking a deed too, but I want to play around with a few things and talk with the other designers.Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.
I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.
Thanks for sharing...pickles.
W00t! Pickle slingers unite!
And just for the record... I DO think it should be some kind of deed.
Not a Gun mechanic.Possible a 6th level entry deed (to keep dipping out of the equation)
Hi Stephen! so you like pickles too? excellent! :)
About the pickle shot being a deed: could it be a "as long as a gunslinger
has at least 1 grit point" kinda deed? or perhaps the pickle feature could be added to the 5th level Gun Training paragraph. Deeds, unless it says otherwise, I *think* require a grit point every use, and I found during my playtest that even with a Wisdom 20 gunslinger, I found grit to be really precious/hard to come by... but the pickle shot increase the chance for crits and grit recovery... so maybe that's a saving grace in a way...
Im hoping you make it a 1 grit reserve deed and not a 1 grit per use, because otherwise it will be a one combat per day kinda thing.word... what he said... in a much more efficient manner than me! (gotta restock on pickles... i'm losing brain power...)
ALTHOUGH.....IF you allow the targeting torso to be 1 grit reserve as well, and it can stack with either keen OR improved crit (not both, since they dont stack with eachother) and kept the touch AC at close range thing, then critting would be common enough to recharge grit pool....
hmm balancing balancing...
Im hoping you make it a 1 grit reserve deed and not a 1 grit per use, because otherwise it will be a one combat per day kinda thing.word... what he said... in a much more efficient manner than me! (gotta restock on pickles... i'm losing brain power...)
I'm leaning in that direction...but like I said, I want to talk to the other designers about it before I shoot my mouth off. ;-)
First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.
Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.
Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.
As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.
Perhaps the gunslinger could have a class feature that mimicks the "reliable" weapon ability at lower levels (4th-7th), perhasps called "reliability", then it increases to the "steadfast" weapon ability at a higher level(10th-13th), say call it "steadfastness"?. They could still have waepons with the abilities, much like keen duplicates the Improved Critical feat.
Perhaps the gunslinger could have a class feature that mimicks the "reliable" weapon ability at lower levels (4th-7th), perhasps called "reliability", then it increases to the "steadfast" weapon ability at a higher level(10th-13th), say call it "steadfastness"?. They could still have waepons with the abilities, much like keen duplicates the Improved Critical feat.First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.
Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.
Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.
As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.
yknow i like the "thrill" of guns misfiring and what not, dont really want to see things to make that go away. Quick clear is good enough (just should be an ability not cost grit)
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Im hoping you make it a 1 grit reserve deed and not a 1 grit per use, because otherwise it will be a one combat per day kinda thing.word... what he said... in a much more efficient manner than me! (gotta restock on pickles... i'm losing brain power...)ALTHOUGH.....IF you allow the targeting torso to be 1 grit reserve as well, and it can stack with either keen OR improved crit (not both, since they dont stack with eachother) and kept the touch AC at close range thing, then critting would be common enough to recharge grit pool....
hmm balancing balancing...
I would advise against the touch AC thing. Why? ranged and melee touch AC is in my view something to assist wizards in landing their touch spells... gunslingers don't need that to hit as they have full BAB and most of the time will benefit from kick ass DEX bonus (my playtest gunslinger's main attack is at +22 at level 11.. after -2 for rapid shot and -3 for deadly aim, he was still at +17 and did plenty of damage vs regular AC. I would be very careful before allowing a pickleshotting gunslinger to hit touch AC. Perhaps occasionally, via a deed with 1 grit point cost, one could ignore both armor and shield bonus? (i.e. using the same mechanics as the brilliant energy weapon property?)
So you could have:
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action,
a gunslinger can can exploit a flaw in the enemy's
defenses. On the next firearm attack or full attack
routine she makes before the end of her turn, she
can ignore the armor and shield AC bonus of his target.
Performing this deed costs 1 grit point. The gunslinger
still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each
range increment beyond the first when she performs
this deed.
PS: note that the targeting deed would also require the "On the next firearm attack or full attack routine" wording adjust I made to the Deadeye deed, above, in order to make crit range 17-20 pickleshots possible...
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Perhaps the gunslinger could have a class feature that mimicks the "reliable" weapon ability at lower levels (4th-7th), perhasps called "reliability", then it increases to the "steadfast" weapon ability at a higher level(10th-13th), say call it "steadfastness"?. They could still have waepons with the abilities, much like keen duplicates the Improved Critical feat.First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.
Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.
Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.
As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.
Reliability added as a class feature would be a very elegant way to demonstrate the gunslinger's professionalism in regards to firearms... yes....... Amateur Gunslingers and those without any other feat than Exotic Weapon Prof firearms would still make good use of the reliable weapon property...
PS: while on the subject of magic items, I'm a big fan of the "sights" you tack unto a musket! well done! I think see invisibility sight should allow you to locate the creature though, because you can essentially do the same thing as this with the seeking weapon property at a much cheaper cost AND use it with a full attack routine (i.e. full pickle multiple attack rolls shot...)
yknow i like the "thrill" of guns misfiring and what not, dont really want to see things to make that go away. Quick clear is good enough (just should be an ability not cost grit)Perhaps the gunslinger could have a class feature that mimicks the "reliable" weapon ability at lower levels (4th-7th), perhasps called "reliability", then it increases to the "steadfast" weapon ability at a higher level(10th-13th), say call it "steadfastness"?. They could still have waepons with the abilities, much like keen duplicates the Improved Critical feat.First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.
Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.
Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.
As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.
We could always make them feats I suppose. Much like Improved Critical is.
IMO, if you're going to have guns and ammo be expensive as they are now, you need to basically all but eliminate the misfire chance.
We don't put a cool tax on the ranger. Why should we put it on the Gunslinger?
Modern ammo still gets misfires. Misfires are a very real probability in guns. especially with blackpowder not being contained in cartridges runs the risk of getting wet... I wonder, do handy haversacks and similar devices keep water out?
water tight scroll tubes are pretty common, i imagine a watertight powder horn would not be too hard...
OOOOooo a new item! Everful Powder Horn! that'd be nice, then you'd just need the 1 gp for bullets.
What about the decanter of endless molten lead for casting bullets?
Perhaps I should introduce my Pouch of Replication magical item for this very purpose. It duplicates anything nonmagical that is put in it. If I put a normal shot in, I'll be able to pull out up to 50 of them per day. If I then drop in a small glass flask, it'll duplicate up to 50 of them per day; or a normal dagger, or a flint, or any other similar small mundane item.
I agree with the Everful Poweder Horn or it could be the Black Powder Horn of Plenty? Magical sights (as stated previously in this thread), a magical "silencer"...I'll be interested to see what they come up with for the gunslinger in the way of magic items, and magical weapon abilities.
If archers don't have to worry about their bowstrings getting wet, then Gunslingers shouldn't worry either.
wet bow strings dont cause anything to happen.
scrolls cant be submerged in water and then work and they are magical. Thats why there are water proof scroll tubes.
Historically speaking, wet bow strings are far less effective at maintaining tension and generating force than dry ones.
My point being, if we must nitpick the gunpowder issue, make something that is cheap and easily attainable for Gunslingers to protect their powder. Otherwise, we should start giving archers large penalties to attack rolls with wet bowstrings.
OK, well, you're free to do so.
But practically speaking, there's not really such a thing as a rifled slug. The rifling of the barrel is what makes the difference. Doesn't really matter what the slug looks like, if you fire it through a smooth bore weapon then it's going to come out the same as if were a musketball.
Everything I've ever read about it says a slug, 'rifled' or not, is in fact more accurate than a plain ball. Supposedly the weight distribution gives them better flight characteristics(the value of the 'rifling' put on slugs is apparently considered of dubious value). But yes, rifled barrel>slugs>balls.
I just want to put out a little something to help other guys who might have a little problem with some of the realism elements. i think for a lot of people, it's not about whether it's realistic or not, just as long as it is 'close enough' to be explained away. That point varies by individual. So if it helps people to think of it as special expensive bullets that are more accurate, then good.
After sleeping on it a bit, I think a lot of the accuracy/ precision issues are handled simply by the tiny little range increment given to guns.
After sleeping on it a bit, I think a lot of the accuracy/ precision issues are handled simply by the tiny little range increment given to guns.
This. The range discrepancy will turn out to be huge, because the Gunslinger is rewarded with Grit for doing things that will likely get him killed/seriously in trouble. When you're hanging out within two move actions of your enemy, life is much harder than when you're lobbing arrows from a leisurely 100 feet.
There is such a thing as rifled slugs, they are made for shotguns. You DO NOT want to shoot a rifled slug out of a non rifled barrel or visa versa. a Rifled slug is made specifically to mate with the rifling in a rifled shotgun barrel. Normal slugs will do nothing but dent up your rifling, these are used to hunt with (primarily deer and elk) during shotgun only seasons in some states.
There is such a thing as rifled slugs, they are made for shotguns. You DO NOT want to shoot a rifled slug out of a non rifled barrel or visa versa. a Rifled slug is made specifically to mate with the rifling in a rifled shotgun barrel. Normal slugs will do nothing but dent up your rifling, these are used to hunt with (primarily deer and elk) during shotgun only seasons in some states.
Right. I've hunted with it before (and boy does it kick.) I was just trying to make it clear that the barrel rifling is the important part. In the end, a smoothbore is a smoothbore no matter how you cut it.
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OOOOooo a new item! Everful Powder Horn! that'd be nice, then you'd just need the 1 gp for bullets.
What about the decanter of endless molten lead for casting bullets?
excellent ideas! these should be pricey though, as they will literally save millions of gold pieces to a level 11+ gunslinger... :)
Disclaimer: ok, will save only thousands if you are a pickleshooter! :)
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Ok, you won't believe this... I found a really old jar of dill pickles at the back of the fridge... those are Kosher Dill Pickles... I ate them all too (only 4 left in it). They tasted funny. Then I read the side label: "Without Preservatives"
I am worried now... but in the next hour I may well come up with something smart... so before I pass out, hit me with your most amazing Pathfinder crunch rule problems! quick!
:P
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How about some on topic problems for your picklemancy.
-- Build an objective, yet compelling set of conditions for regaining grit. Appease everyone's sensibilities at once.
-- Stat an elephant gun / other high caliber gun. Larger misfire chance seems appropriate.
Hope that helps? And that you haven't just poisoned yourself with mold/bacteria?
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How about some on topic problems for your picklemancy.
-- Build an objective, yet compelling set of conditions for regaining grit. Appease everyone's sensibilities at once.
-- Stat an elephant gun / other high caliber gun. Larger misfire chance seems appropriate.
Hope that helps? And that you haven't just poisoned yourself with mold/bacteria?
Ok I'll try... and be so tired tomorrow at work! here we go!!!
-- Regaining Grit while in town: Once a day, while staying at a good inn (2gp) the gunslinger can order a hot bath to be taken to his upstairs room (costs as per a good meal, 5sp) and the services of two hirelings trained for expert bathing duties (3sp x 2 -- he must pay them for the whole day regardless of the actual bathing time). After 1d6 hours of such ministrations, the gunslinger regains a number of grit points corresponding to the amount of hours spent bathing and relaxing (his total cannot exceed his daily limit). If the gunslinger has the leadership feat, he can use two of his followers (but not his cohort) in lieu of trained hirelings, but he must still pay for the cost of the inn room and bath.
-- Regaining Grit in the wilds: A good cup of coffee and a tin of baked bean and sausage rations can put some order in any gunslinger's thoughts. While in the wilds, once a day, using a stove can (10gp) and a cooking kit (1gp) for a duration of at least 30 minutes, you can prepare yourself a cup of coffee (the listed 1/2 lb of coffee can yield 10 cups and comes in 1sp sealed pouches) and baked beans and sausage (treat as one day's worth of trail ration, 5sp). At the completion of the meal, the gunslinger regains 1d4 grit points (his total cannot exceed his daily limit). See Adventurer's Armory companion book for details on the stove can, cooking kit, and coffee.
-- Regaining Grit in battle: Once per encounter, as a standard action, the gunslinger can take a one ounce swig of Oldlaw whiskey (20gp/bottle of 40 oz) from a flask (3cp). Taking a swig is like drinking a potion in that it requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. At the completion of the swig, the gunslinger regains 1 grit point (his total cannot exceed his daily limit). For the purposes of storage, a flask can hold up to 8 oz. See Adventurer's Armory companion book for details on Oldlaw whiskey.
-- Elephant Gun: nahhhhh.... this is fantasy so we should maybe keep firearms simple (pistol and musket only, and whatever else they are cooking for Ultimate Combat...) Basically, those running the Golarion setting have/will make decision in regards to gun tech in Golarion, and discussions regarding Elephant Guns, M-16s and AK-47 may be moot for the purposes of this playtest...
Ok, you won't believe this... I found a really old jar of dill pickles at the back of the fridge... those are Kosher Dill Pickles... I ate them all too (only 4 left in it). They tasted funny. Then I read the side label: "Without Preservatives"
I am worried now... but in the next hour I may well come up with something smart... so before I pass out, hit me with your most amazing Pathfinder crunch rule problems! quick!
:P
how did you find pickles without preservatives? I mean really... Pickles are preserved Cucumbers... no preservatives...
Hey, I just posted some changes to the Gunslinger on the
Gunslinger Review - Gunslinger, Guns, Core Classes (Multi-Part)
post. Go check it out. I'd link to it, but have no idea how. I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate the Pickle shooting. Any ideas, post 'em.
Thankyou TOZ, and Arnim Thayer.
FYI, the timestamp next to your username is a direct link to your post. The More You Know. :)
Knowledge is power!
Power corrupts!
Study Hard! BE EVIL!
:)
Ok, so I want to start off by saying I think I like the way this version of the mechanics runs, assuming I've been following it correctly. Firing 1 bullet per attack/full-attack action, but resolving it as per a normal attack/full-attack action is a great way to solve certain problems with the class without requiring the class take certain feats just to be playable. Also makes 11g per shot slightly less painful. Additionally, I know a few people have played around with the idea that upping the grit points would be a good idea, and I agree. A daily grit point pool of 1/2 lvl + wisdom mod does sound remarkably fair.
But I do see another problem that could use some discussion, and that is magic ammo. Under the "dill-pickle" method, the higher in level a gunslinger gets, the more potent a magic bullet's abilities become. Here's an explanation of what I mean by way of comparison.
Take a 20th level Ranger and a 20th level musket gunslinger. The ranger has a standard pile of 50 arrows enchanted to be, say, +1 Flaming Burst Shocking Burst arrows, while the gunslinger gets a pile of 50 bullets enchanted to be +1 Flaming Burst Shocking Burst bullets.
Let us look at a basic, no frills or applied feats, full-attack using these arrows. Both classes would get to make 4 attacks. The ranger spends 4 arrows under this situation. By the dill pickle method, the gunslinger spends 1 bullet. That means that his one magic bullet can be just as effective as 4 of the rangers arrows. To be fair, this can only happen when the ammo has been enchanted, rather than the gun, but this could easily come up. And i was ignoring all the feats that lvl 20 rangers and gunslingers would have to get more than 4 attacks.
The other oddity is that, at low levels, this isn't a major problem. It only really becomes evident once the classes start gaining additional iterations during a full-attack.
I also have one idea for how to fix it, but I'm not certain how feasible it is, and someone with a better grasp of balanced mechanics would need to refine it. The basic idea works one of two ways. Option one: The higher the net enhancement from plus and special abilities, the fewer bullets you can enchant for a given cost. Option two: Higher net enhancement (from plus and special abilities) could have some kind of scaling additional cost to enchant the same number of bullets.
What do you think about this problem?
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I don't really see it as a problem... 50 nonmagical arrows are what? 2 or 3gp? in contrast, 50 nonmagical bullets are 11x50 = 550gp. So what if they get a bit more *bang* for their buck (no pun intended! :P) when they get to enhance a bag of 50 bullets... by the time they get the cash to enhance bullets, they'll already have suffered several cash-strapped early levels (I see levels 1 through 5 as being very low on cash for these characters -- 11gp may appear insignificant, but a good 4 hour game session may see up to 25 rounds of fighting, so that's about 250gp worth of ammo -- which may be brutal at 1st and 2nd level....)
So sure, later the pickleshot gives them an edge and they save on ammo... but who cares? I don't know a lot of archer players who buy magical ammo anyhow! they enchant their bow and the arrows they fire gain the bow's properties (flaming, enhancement, etc.) My guess is that most gunslingers will do the same (enchant the firearm and forget about enchanting bullets)
Given the various advantages a bow has over a gun, I think it's fine.
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IDK about that PDK, ever single ranged character I've had always mix/matched his magical bow and ammo.
I tended to get a bow that was purely enhancement bonus, and buy several stacks of +1 Bane, Flaming, Frost, etc arrows. Given different situations I would use different arrows.
You're not the norm... you may not be the exception to the rule, but you're not the norm either. Every campaign I've run had archers pile the magical money on the bow and not the arrows (dunno... most people I've DMed see this as an utter waste of cash)
I've seen archers buy cold iron, silver or adamantine arrows, but NEVER magical ammo...
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Gunslinger used as guest ally NPC with an existing party consisting of:
barbarian 10
rogue 10
necromancer 10 + fighter 8 cohort
oracle 10 + paladin 8 cohort
CHARACTER STATS:
Anton Smythe – Gunslinger 11
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9 (5 dex, reactionary 2, gunslinger initiative 2)
Senses Perception +21
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 Ring)
hp 99 (11d10+33)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +8 (+11 vs Fear)
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Ranged +3 Distance Seeking Musket w/Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d12+14; 17-20/x4 crit)
Class Abilities grit (5 pt), deeds, brave and tough (+3 Fort/Will saves vs. fear), gun training (musket, pistol)
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +11; CMD 26
Feats 6+2+1
1 Rapid Reload
Human Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4B Weapon Focus
5 Lightning Reload Deed
7 Precise Shot
8B Improved Critical (musket)
9 Rapid Shot
11 Signature Deed (Targeting)
Skills Acrobatics +19 , Craft (gunsmith) +15, Knowledge (Local) +15,Perception +21
Traits Reactionary, Isger Fixer
Languages Common, Draconic
GEAR
+3 distance musket – 33,800
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,350
ring of protection +2 – 8,000
bag of holding I – 2,500
boots of levitation – 7,500
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 16,000
bullets (200) – 200
black powder (200 doses) – 2,000
eyes of the eagle – 2,500
Potion of haste – 750
Starting Wealth: 82,000 Spent: 81,600
ENCOUNTER ONE through THREE: Summary
This second part of the playtest does not require detailed analysis, as the game started with the gunslinger at 1 grit point (the previous playtest had depleted his grit reserve and he was now down to one point).
I decided to NOT use the last grit point in the interest of keeping the all of the gunslingers' abilities available for this playtest (i.e. including those that require at least one point of grit to operate)
To make a long story short, because the gunslinger no longer had enough grit to activate lightning reload, he spent every other round reloading his musket (standard action to reload even with rapid load).
In addition to this, the requirements of the dungeon required the gunslinger to move on the rounds he could shoot... so typically, this went: round 1 reload; round 2 move and shoot; etc.
On the three rounds of the entire game session where he moved and shot, he dealt: 18dmg, 21dmg and 19dmg.
Recommendation: I will add my voice to other posters of this forum... to be viable a gunslinger absolutely *needs* signature deed (lightning reload) at 11th level... otherwise, both character usefulness and fun drops near zero. In the first part of the playtest (when he was full of grit) I doubled the number of monsters to balance out the addition of the guest gunslinger to the party; however, the second part of this playtest was conducted normally (with no doubling of monsters) due to the obvious uselessness of the gunslinger. RELOADING AS A STANDARD IS UTTERLY CRIPPLING FOR THE GUNSLINGER, EVEN IF PICKLESHOOTING IS ALLOWED!
Just posted the Gunslinger v.1.4.0 on the "Gunslinger Alpha Version" thread if anyone's interested.
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I was a part of the play test with Purple Dragon Knight.
I can say the "pickle" idea works very well from a game mechanic point of view. It balances the class nicely, it even feels right as accuracy(ie: more hits) is the main determinate of how much damage you do. I really hope that is what Paizo uses for the official rules.
Also, doubling of the monsters was not very nice my French Canadian friend! Grrrh! :P
Welcome to the Paizo boards Healbot! Your alias name leaves no doubt in my mind as to who you are! LOL! Oracle of Life Healbot I give you my blessings to spread the good word about pickleshooting!
(as to doubling the vampires in the room... sorry... but it was a necessity with the full grit pickleshooting gunslinger... he was doint almost as much damage as Targar who has a STR of 30 when in raging/angry mode!)
:)
I don't think you guys understand just how excellent this thread and its ideas are. The quality of discourse presented here is just ... phenomenal. You've gone and mostly fixed the Gunslinger, you understand that? A couple more tweaks here and there, and it's gone from a class I think is worse than the Monk to something I'd love to play!