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Respect the Dill Pickles


Gunslinger Discussion - Round 1

101 to 150 of 196 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

I have a thought that gets around the multiple misfire/multiple critical nonsense. Instead of rolling multiple attacks to represent the iterative attacks, how about being able to apply more damage (up to the number of iterative attacks) by beating the AC by multiples of 5. For example, a 11th level gunslinger rolling 28 vs AC 22 would be treated as getting 2 attacks through, while that same gunslinger then rolling a 38 vs AC 22 would get 3 (by having 3 attacks and beating the AC by 10 or more. This would make criticals devastating (since 1 roll governs all criticals), and it feels to the player like making a single shot.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Gunslinger/Rogue/Assassin - imagine how scary a sniper assassin would be, especially if you enhance your musket to be "silenced" and block out the muzzle flash with a "darkness spell, and the wielder with goggles of night or darkvision.

All hail to the Pickle...

You, Sir, have just come up with my next nasty BBEG concept. I will playtest this in the form of a constant plague for the group I am DMing through CoT right now... (i.e. the Council of Thieves, after chapter 5, will get absolutely pissed at the PCs and put a bounty on their heads, advertising the bounty throughout all of Cheliax' underworld and through their agents abroad. A couple weeks after their latest win, this guy will show up and try to pick them off one by one by stalking their hideout...

I would suggest you try it with a drow as the race. A friend of mine played a 2E/3.5E version of a drow fighter/rogue/assassin who used twin longswords in melee, but used a scary magicked-up musket as his assassination weapon - increased range, silenced, clouded in a continual darkness, enchanted bullets, etc. pretty fun guy. Best thing was, he was forced to "befriend" an enemy drow (CG cleric/rogue) that was his mark. Pretty scarry how those two worked together, out of necessity of course.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

Kamai wrote:
I have a thought that gets around the multiple misfire/multiple critical nonsense. Instead of rolling multiple attacks to represent the iterative attacks, how about being able to apply more damage (up to the number of iterative attacks) by beating the AC by multiples of 5. For example, a 11th level gunslinger rolling 28 vs AC 22 would be treated as getting 2 attacks through, while that same gunslinger then rolling a 38 vs AC 22 would get 3 (by having 3 attacks and beating the AC by 10 or more. This would make criticals devastating (since 1 roll governs all criticals), and it feels to the player like making a single shot.

This... is a really interesting idea.

I'm gonna have to think about the math just a little, as criticals have the potential to be super instant death for anything on the receiving end and 1's kind of waste your action in a way even worse than a normal 1.

Like I said, I am going to have to think about it a bit, but it is a really straightforward idea for a mechanic.


Seems like an interesting idea, but I have a question...

How do you deal with the fact that this would tend to make guns more precise than bows? (more rolls per shot= more likely to at least do some damage)

Or is that something that's just glossed over in the name of expediency?


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

Seems like an interesting idea, but I have a question...

How do you deal with the fact that this would tend to make guns more precise than bows? (more rolls per hit= more likely to at least do some damage)

Or is that something that's just glossed over in the name of expediency?

They may be more accurate, which is actually not a problem, in that they fire once and tend to hit. However, they don't do any more damage overall than the bow. The arrow takes 3 arrows to do as much damage as a single bullet hitting once.

I'm actually ok with that. Unless you are a very good shot with a bow, you generally have to either hit something a couple of times to take it down (IE: You have to hit a vital organ, a crit), or you have to put 2 or 3 arrows in it (bleeding it out), or you hit it with one arrow, and hope you hit an artery and then track it down by the blood trail as it bleeds out.

Generally, if you hit with a bullet center mass, the target goes down fairly quickly (hydrostatic shock damage to the organs).

A good example is my mom actually. She goes hunting with Black Powder rifles (well, she did before she had a heart attack earlier this year). She usually took down a deer with one shot. However, a friend of hers that goes bow hunting usually hit a deer once with a hunting tip arrow (big nasty four bladed thing with barbs designed to do damage going in and coming out), and then tracked the deer for 30 minutes or so, as it slowly bled out. If he was lucky enough to hit a vital organ, then it was only a few minutes (one year he hit a deer mid ribcage, the arrow deflected on a rib and pierced right through the heart). Funny thing was, the deer still ran for 5 minutes with an arrow through it's heart.

So yeah, I'm perfectly ok with a single bullet doing the same damage as 3 arrows, provided the iterative attacks all hit for the gunslinger.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kamai wrote:
I have a thought that gets around the multiple misfire/multiple critical nonsense. Instead of rolling multiple attacks to represent the iterative attacks, how about being able to apply more damage (up to the number of iterative attacks) by beating the AC by multiples of 5. For example, a 11th level gunslinger rolling 28 vs AC 22 would be treated as getting 2 attacks through, while that same gunslinger then rolling a 38 vs AC 22 would get 3 (by having 3 attacks and beating the AC by 10 or more. This would make criticals devastating (since 1 roll governs all criticals), and it feels to the player like making a single shot.

Hmmm! logarithmic scalability! Interesting and perhaps faster to the advanced player, especially if the player is knowledgeable of the mechanics of bull rush. Truth is, not a lot of people "get" the added by 5 mechanics, and everyone but the most mathematically inclined players at the table seem to struggle with the way bull rush works (and other similar systems). Logarithmic scalability is faster to compute with experience, but mathematically, you "reduce" your chances to cause high damage, as you can no longer benefit from multiple crits within the same shot series. I playtested the pickle tonight, and I must admit that rolling multiple attack rolls as the bullet flies is entirely SATISFYING! (and all eyes are on you as you compute the final, impressive damage! :) )

But no more spoilers: let us proceed to the pickle playtest results!! (see next posts!)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Gunslinger/Rogue/Assassin - imagine how scary a sniper assassin would be, especially if you enhance your musket to be "silenced" and block out the muzzle flash with a "darkness spell, and the wielder with goggles of night or darkvision.

All hail to the Pickle...

You, Sir, have just come up with my next nasty BBEG concept. I will playtest this in the form of a constant plague for the group I am DMing through CoT right now... (i.e. the Council of Thieves, after chapter 5, will get absolutely pissed at the PCs and put a bounty on their heads, advertising the bounty throughout all of Cheliax' underworld and through their agents abroad. A couple weeks after their latest win, this guy will show up and try to pick them off one by one by stalking their hideout...
I would suggest you try it with a drow as the race. A friend of mine played a 2E/3.5E version of a drow fighter/rogue/assassin who used twin longswords in melee, but used a scary magicked-up musket as his assassination weapon - increased range, silenced, clouded in a continual darkness, enchanted bullets, etc. pretty fun guy. Best thing was, he was forced to "befriend" an enemy drow (CG cleric/rogue) that was his mark. Pretty scarry how those two worked together, out of necessity of course.

Since Cheliax is all about tieflings, and that the BBEG of the campaign is tiefling as well... (darkness available too) I may try it with tiefling instead, but yes absolutely! I will use your idea of darkness clouding!!! :)


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

Seems like an interesting idea, but I have a question...

How do you deal with the fact that this would tend to make guns more precise than bows? (more rolls per shot= more likely to at least do some damage)

Or is that something that's just glossed over in the name of expediency?

I'm not really sure where you got that idea. The damage rolls per shot thing doesn't really translate into preciseness or accuracy. What it does translate to is that a large, heavy metal ball just blasted into someone or something's body and depending how well you roll, has the potential to rip open a nasty exit wound the size of a fist.

You would have the same chance of doing damage with a bow. Successfully shooting 3 arrows into someone will roughly be the same as getting a good solid hit with a ball (at three "attacks"). It just takes you less ammunition to do so because musketballs tend to be more devastating per shot.

When all is said and done, bows and guns were not, and will not be exactly equal in all ways. Arrows are cheaper, and silent. Shot is expensive, and loud, and hits harder. You can apply poison to arrows.

So, I would be less hasty to posit "expediency." K?


mdt wrote:
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

Seems like an interesting idea, but I have a question...

How do you deal with the fact that this would tend to make guns more precise than bows? (more rolls per hit= more likely to at least do some damage)

Or is that something that's just glossed over in the name of expediency?

They may be more accurate, which is actually not a problem, in that they fire once and tend to hit. However, they don't do any more damage overall than the bow. The arrow takes 3 arrows to do as much damage as a single bullet hitting once.

I'm actually ok with that. Unless you are a very good shot with a bow, you generally have to either hit something a couple of times to take it down (IE: You have to hit a vital organ, a crit), or you have to put 2 or 3 arrows in it (bleeding it out), or you hit it with one arrow, and hope you hit an artery and then track it down by the blood trail as it bleeds out.

Generally, if you hit with a bullet center mass, the target goes down fairly quickly (hydrostatic shock damage to the organs).

A good example is my mom actually. She goes hunting with Black Powder rifles (well, she did before she had a heart attack earlier this year). She usually took down a deer with one shot. However, a friend of hers that goes bow hunting usually hit a deer once with a hunting tip arrow (big nasty four bladed thing with barbs designed to do damage going in and coming out), and then tracked the deer for 30 minutes or so, as it slowly bled out. If he was lucky enough to hit a vital organ, then it was only a few minutes (one year he hit a deer mid ribcage, the arrow deflected on a rib and pierced right through the heart). Funny thing was, the deer still ran for 5 minutes with an arrow through it's heart.

So yeah, I'm perfectly ok with a single bullet doing the same damage as 3 arrows, provided the iterative attacks all hit for the gunslinger.

I'm not talking damage- I understand that for the mechanical purposes...although your hunting analogy is not entirely apt unless your mom hunted with 'ye olde musket'.

I'm talking about the fact that, a lot of the time, every shot will hit for at least a bit of damage- since you're unlikely to miss with every attack, especially if we include rapid shot+ haste, etc.

In reality, early guns were good on damage, but lousy on precision. I understand that a lot of people might not be concerned about that, tho...


Another way to look at it is this. A single shot from a gun only has to be aimed once. Multiple shots from a bow require a lot more movement involved in drawing it from the quiver and firing at a rapid pace, ergo the reasoning for a decreasing BAB in a full attack.

With both weapons, the first "attack" is the most accurate. The following rolls for the bow represent how lucky you got while firing at a fast pace, and the following rolls for the gun represent if you blasted a hole in the sweet spot or if you just tore through a bit of muscle tissue.

Lastly, I'm not too hung up on the whole deal of historical precedent on weapon accuracy as a reason to discredit the Gunslinger. If archers can fire off an arrow every second, then the Gunslinger can be good at aiming his shot to the best effect.

Done.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kryptik wrote:
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

Seems like an interesting idea, but I have a question...

How do you deal with the fact that this would tend to make guns more precise than bows? (more rolls per shot= more likely to at least do some damage)

Or is that something that's just glossed over in the name of expediency?

I'm not really sure where you got that idea. The damage rolls per shot thing doesn't really translate into preciseness or accuracy. What it does translate to is that a large, heavy metal ball just blasted into someone or something's body and depending how well you roll, has the potential to rip open a nasty exit wound the size of a fist.

Actually, no, it does make the bullet more accurate.

Purely from a game world view.

An example :
Slinger Sally and Archer Andrea both shoot at an AC 22 opponent. Andrea rolls 25, 22, and 19 to hit. So she had two arrows hit and one miss. Sally rolls 25, 18, and 7. So she had only one hit during the complex aim, but she hit with the only bullet she fired.

Next round, Andrea rolls 23, 18, 9. Sally rolls 22, 24, and 22. Andrea hits with 1 arrow and misses with two. Sally hits with one bullet, and tears the thing in half (due to the combined damage of her 3 rolls).

To the characters, it looks as if not only is Sally more accurate with her gun (she hit every shot), but it looks like Andrea is seriously having trouble hitting. And, it looks like Sally did more damage because her two bullets did the bulk of the damage.

Again, that's from a world view standpoint. The players know what's going on, but the characters only perceive that although she's firing less often, Sally's hitting every time and doing good damage each time.

Again, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It would at least explain why people are paying 11gp per shot and 1000gp for a gun.


Kryptik wrote:
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

Seems like an interesting idea, but I have a question...

How do you deal with the fact that this would tend to make guns more precise than bows? (more rolls per shot= more likely to at least do some damage)

Or is that something that's just glossed over in the name of expediency?

I'm not really sure where you got that idea. The damage rolls per shot thing doesn't really translate into preciseness or accuracy. What it does translate to is that a large, heavy metal ball just blasted into someone or something's body and depending how well you roll, has the potential to rip open a nasty exit wound the size of a fist.

You would have the same chance of doing damage with a bow. Successfully shooting 3 arrows into someone will roughly be the same as getting a good solid hit with a ball (at three "attacks"). It just takes you less ammunition to do so because musketballs tend to be more devastating per shot.

When all is said and done, bows and guns were not, and will not be exactly equal in all ways. Arrows are cheaper, and silent. Shot is expensive, and loud, and hits harder. You can apply poison to arrows.

So, I would be less hasty to posit "expediency." K?

Yes, it does... unless you require the 1st roll to be a hit in order to allow the other rolls to take place.


Ok I see what you're saying.

However, look at my last post. If the archer is good enough to rattle off an arrow every second (roughly so at least, 5 arrows in a 6 second round) then the Gunslinger can be good at aiming his weapon.


Kryptik wrote:

Lastly, I'm not too hung up on the whole deal of historical precedent on weapon accuracy as a reason to discredit the Gunslinger. If archers can fire off an arrow every second, then the Gunslinger can be good at aiming his shot to the best effect.

Done.

I can understand that point- I just wonder if it would be better handled another way... something more along the lines of vital strike, but better, perhaps.

I'm not totally opposed to this idea, just not sure it's my favorite yet.

I'd like to see a version of gunslinger that's fun to play, too.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kryptik wrote:

Ok I see what you're saying.

However, look at my last post. If the archer is good enough to rattle off an arrow every second (roughly so at least, 5 arrows in a 6 second round) then the Gunslinger can be good at aiming his weapon.

Yep, never said you were wrong, just explaining how it would appear that the gunslinger was much more accurate than the archer.

Basically, it would be like the difference between a guy with a C&B revolver from 1875 compared to a punk with an Uzi in 1975. They guy with the Uzi is used to just pointing the gun in the right direction and pulling the trigger and letitng the 100 bullets hit in the area and one or two hit the target. The guy with the C&B revolver is aiming and firing one round for the other guys 10, but he's hitting center body mass.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:
Kryptik wrote:

Lastly, I'm not too hung up on the whole deal of historical precedent on weapon accuracy as a reason to discredit the Gunslinger. If archers can fire off an arrow every second, then the Gunslinger can be good at aiming his shot to the best effect.

Done.

I can understand that point- I just wonder if it would be better handled another way... something more along the lines of vital strike, but better, perhaps.

I'm not totally opposed to this idea, just not sure it's my favorite yet.

I'd like to see a version of gunslinger that's fun to play, too.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think that would be a better way for the Gunslinger, and here's why.

A Vital Strike-esque mechanic depends on an all or nothing attack. If you miss with your bullet, then you're SOL. While that may have been the case historically, it would make the Gunslinger very frustrating to play. This is a fantasy game, after all, and I for one am quite willing to accept that in a game of flying dragons, wizards, and archers who can pump out 5 arrows or more in 6 seconds with a decent chance of hitting their target, there may be a person who is good at hitting things with a gun.


mdt wrote:
Kryptik wrote:

Ok I see what you're saying.

However, look at my last post. If the archer is good enough to rattle off an arrow every second (roughly so at least, 5 arrows in a 6 second round) then the Gunslinger can be good at aiming his weapon.

Yep, never said you were wrong, just explaining how it would appear that the gunslinger was much more accurate than the archer.

Basically, it would be like the difference between a guy with a C&B revolver from 1875 compared to a punk with an Uzi in 1975. They guy with the Uzi is used to just pointing the gun in the right direction and pulling the trigger and letitng the 100 bullets hit in the area and one or two hit the target. The guy with the C&B revolver is aiming and firing one round for the other guys 10, but he's hitting center body mass.

Actually your example is pretty close to the mark, and actually is a credit to the iconic nature of the Gunslinger. A full attacking archer is the "machine gun" ; a high rate of fire, but sacrifices accuracy each time they reach into the quiver. A full attacking Gunslinger is the calm, cold as ice guy or gal staring down the barrel of a gun with a cigar clenched in their teeth, waiting for just the right moment to really blast 'em.

Incidentally, the argument could be made that, when not full attacking, the archer and the gunslinger are equally as accurate. It's the same bonus after all; the top of the BAB. Archers who go all Rambo should appear to be less accurate.


Also, just to put this on the table and to get it out of the way, as it stands now the bow still is superior in most aspects to the gun. Here's how.

It's cheaper. It's lighter. It's basically silent. It has a longer range. You can apply poison to arrows. You can produce your arrows MUCH more easily. It doesn't blow up in your face and cripple your participation to combat. It's much faster to reload. Rust monsters won't destroy your weapon. I could go on.

The only bump in the road here is the perception that the archer is fundamentally less accurate than the Gunslinger, which I shot down (love these Gunslinger puns) in my previous posts. Give the archer and Gunslinger one roll at the highest BAB and they will have the same chance to hit something. Only the Gunslinger has to keep his cool and do it near to danger. The archer can plink away from the safety of long range.


Kryptik wrote:

I get what you're saying, but I don't think that would be a better way for the Gunslinger, and here's why.

A Vital Strike-esque mechanic depends on an all or nothing attack. If you miss with your bullet, then you're SOL. While that may have been the case historically, it would make the Gunslinger very frustrating to play. This is a fantasy game, after all, and I for one am quite willing to accept that in a game of flying dragons, wizards, and archers who can pump out 5 arrows or more in 6 seconds with a decent chance of hitting their target, there may be a person who is good at hitting things with a gun.

Yeah, I understood that part when I mentioned it- I think it's one of those 'no perfect solution' situations... like how to handle auto-fire in almost any RPG. It is do-able to make the all-or-nothing attack balance against the archer's full-attack, but this is way easier.

I think I tend to get more hung up on these things as tech lvls increase, and the farther they get from reality. Although to be fair, I've seen archers in RL fire 12 arrows in 17 sec. accurately, so... ya know, fast shooting bothers me less than super-accurate muskets.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:
Kryptik wrote:

I get what you're saying, but I don't think that would be a better way for the Gunslinger, and here's why.

A Vital Strike-esque mechanic depends on an all or nothing attack. If you miss with your bullet, then you're SOL. While that may have been the case historically, it would make the Gunslinger very frustrating to play. This is a fantasy game, after all, and I for one am quite willing to accept that in a game of flying dragons, wizards, and archers who can pump out 5 arrows or more in 6 seconds with a decent chance of hitting their target, there may be a person who is good at hitting things with a gun.

Yeah, I understood that part when I mentioned it- I think it's one of those 'no perfect solution' situations... like how to handle auto-fire in almost any RPG. It is do-able to make the all-or-nothing attack balance against the archer's full-attack, but this is way easier.

I think I tend to get more hung up on these things as tech lvls increase, and the farther they get from reality. Although to be fair, I've seen archers in RL fire 12 arrows in 17 sec. accurately, so... ya know, fast shooting bothers me less than super-accurate muskets.

As a history major, and a hunter of some skill (with both bows and guns), I can dig what you're saying.

But.

We have to be able to let that go. We have to let go our realism hangups the minute an old guy in his pajamas shoots fire and ice from his fingertips. Who knows, maybe fantasy gunsmiths produce more accurate guns than our real-world counterparts did. It's time we stopped clinging to our assumptions (this was not directed at you in a hostile way. I just don't know how to put it any other way.)


Oh, I forgot another advantage of bows.

You can attack more than two targets. (Shotgun pellets notwithstanding)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

PICKLE PLAYTEST ONE COMPLETE!

Gunslinger used as guest ally NPC with an existing party consisting of:
barbarian 10
rogue 10
necromancer 10 + fighter 8 cohort
oracle 10 + paladin 8 cohort

CHARACTER STATS:

Anton Smythe – Gunslinger 11
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9 (5 dex, reactionary 2, gunslinger initiative 2)
Senses Perception +21

DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 Ring)
hp 99 (11d10+33)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +8 (+11 vs Fear)

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Ranged +3 Distance Seeking Musket w/Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d12+14; 17-20/x4 crit)

Class Abilities grit (5 pt), deeds, brave and tough (+3 Fort/Will saves vs. fear), gun training (musket, pistol)

STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +11; CMD 26
Feats 6+2+1
1 Rapid Reload
Human Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4B Weapon Focus
5 Lightning Reload Deed
7 Precise Shot
8B Improved Critical (musket)
9 Rapid Shot
11 Signature Deed (Targeting)
Skills Acrobatics +19 , Craft (gunsmith) +15, Knowledge (Local) +15,Perception +21
Traits Reactionary, Isger Fixer
Languages Common, Draconic

GEAR
+3 distance musket – 33,800
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,350
ring of protection +2 – 8,000
bag of holding I – 2,500
boots of levitation – 7,500
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 16,000
bullets (200) – 200
black powder (200 doses) – 2,000
eyes of the eagle – 2,500
Potion of haste – 750
Starting Wealth: 82,000 Spent: 81,600

ENCOUNTER ONE: 8 shadows, 2 human female vampire sorcerer 8

ROUND ONE: vs shadow at range

a) shoots bullet: hit/crit(rolled 17)/hit/miss (total damage 82, divided by half due to shadow incorporeal, for total of 41 damage --> shadow dies... only 3HD so less than half the gunslinger HD = 5 --> so no grit point gained for this killing blow)

made a mistake at the table and treated the crit as x2 instead of x4... so damage should have been in the neighborhood of 123, divided by half for 61 damage...

b) gained a grit point for the critical hit but grit pool of 5 was so far untouched, so grit point gained went to waste -- perhaps PCs should be allowed to gain temporary grit points during the same encounter? if they go over initial daily amount, fine, but at the end of encounter, reset them to daily amount max? just a thought

c) used a grit point to reload as a free action (lightning reload deed feat) --> 4 grit pts left

d) took a 5-foot step

ROUND TWO: vs shadow, adjacent to shadow

a) shoots bullet **takes an AoO from shadow -- loses 1 pt of STR**: hit/hit/hit/miss (total damage 48, divided by half due to shadow incorporeal, for total of 24 damage --> shadow dies... only 3HD so less than half the gunslinger HD = 5 --> so no grit point gained for this killing blow)

b) used a grit point to reload as a free action (lightning reload deed feat) --> 3 grit pts left

c) took a 5-foot step

ROUND THREE: vs vamp sor8, at range (vamp in melee with party barbarian, but gunslinger did not take -4 to hit due to Precise Shot feat; forgot to account for soft cover by other PCs, so I should have taken a -4 anyhow, albeit better than -8)

a) shoots bullet: hit/hit/hit/miss (total damage 67, taking 10 off due to vamp's DR 10, for total of 57 damage (would be 37 damage if we apply DR separately -- I'm open to do this either way in the future, so give me your thoughts! for the purpose of this playtest I used total damage then DR at the very end)

b) players start noticing that NPC, as he's doing about the same damage on average as the party barbarian (barbarian 10)... so gunslinger 11 with three iterative attacks plus extra attack due to rapid shot = so 4 attacks total --> does about the same damage as raging barbarian 10 with two attacks... not overpowered, but quite an acceptable damage for a ranged guy, against foes with good AC such as this vamp sor8 with AC 23... against schmucks like the AC 15 shadow, the gunslinger TRULY shines and clocks damage averaging about 20 for each of four attacks for a total of about 80 damage... if one of the four attacks is a crit, damage goes from 80 to 140... two hits, one crit, a miss, is about 120.

c) used a grit point to reload as a free action (lightning reload deed feat) --> 2 grit pts left

d) took a 5-foot step

ROUND FOUR: vs vamp sor8, at range (vamp in melee with party rogue now, but gunslinger did not take -4 to hit due to Precise Shot feat; no soft cover this time but hard cover as vamp is attacking through a doorframe, so I took a -4 on all rolls)

a) shoots bullet: miss/hit/miss/miss (total damage 24, taking 10 off due to vamp's DR 10, for total of 14 damage

when enemy has very high AC or just good AC *with* cover, the damage potential of the pickle method is significantly reduced. Due to 5-foot step limitation, it is hard to position the gunslinger so he can negate cover situations and get a clear shot!! to overcome this limitation, the pickle method requires the Improved Precise Shot --> I recommend a pickle-build gunslinger to take this feat as soon as possible. Please note that this playtest was conducted in close quarters situation -- underground dungeon setting with narrow 5-foot wide corridors linking 20'x20' rooms, so mobility and line of sight limitations were added obstacles

b) used a grit point to reload as a free action (lightning reload deed feat) --> 1 grit pt left

noticed that it's way too tempting to take that grit point every round to reload... I was REALLY hoping for crits to recharge the grit pool! :) This feeling of anticipation adds to the excitement of the game and makes this class fun/exciting to play... the pickle method increases the attack rolls per round and thus increase the chance of recharging the grit pool, which in turns makes the class way more exciting/dynamic... loved it, even though I was the DM!! :)

c) took a 5-foot step

END OF GAME: one vamp sor8 left on the map, to be continued next week! :)

CONCLUSION: the pickle modification to the gunslinger makes the class dynamic and exciting. Very respectable damage output is also achieved, and brings the gunslinger damage output on par with a corresponding fighter of the same level. The gunslinger pickle-style does less damage than a raging barbarian, and probably comparable damage to an 11th level melee fighter. However, gunslinger battlefield control is nil, he cannot take AoOs (unless he uses armor spikes or a weapon/pistol two weapon fighting style), and he outputs steady damage at the cost of mobility on the battlefield. As this playtest goes forward, I expect to run into the empty round syndrome (i.e. I have one grit point left, and will not be using it so I can keep using the "as long as you have one grit pt." abilities, so the way forward will no doubt see a full attack round followed by a reload round, rinse, lather, repeat...)

Overall: I love the pickle. It is a straightforward build for people who like straightforward characters, for people who do not like to do battlefield control. At times, I love to play fighters with combat maneuvers (especially when I play melee guys), but as it stands, I prefer the pickle method to a regular archer. You get faster combat play due to computing the total damage in one big ball of glory THEN applying DR, instead of computing arrow damage vs. DR separately each attack (i.e. when you play an bow fighter...), although I am fully aware that you score more damage overall this way. Overall, I do not mind this *too* much, as you're limited to ONE foe at a time. I would love to hear comments, and especially opinion on applying the DR only once after the total damage has been rolled. Thanks!


Well gunslinger should still be able to 'shoot from the hip' (ie move and take a normal shot) shooting from the hip two weapon style might be attractive if you need to move a bit.

At level 11, you might want to (and have enough money) for a few drop pistols (the old alkenstar reload)

Can't you AoO with pistol whip? (yea it burns a grit but there is no way that it should its not worth a grit)


Very promising for an initial playtest. Well done PDK.

Thought on AoO issue: Bayonet on the big gun/clubbing with the butt of the gun. Pistol whipping with the handguns?

EDIT:Partial ninja by Pendagast, but I'm glad we're thinking along the same lines! :D

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kryptik wrote:

Very promising for an initial playtest. Well done PDK.

Thought on AoO issue: Bayonet on the big gun/clubbing with the butt of the gun. Pistol whipping with the handguns?

EDIT:Partial ninja by Pendagast, but I'm glad we're thinking along the same lines! :D

Pistol whipping is a standard action, so can't be used as AoO... bayonet part of the playtest? where are the stats for it?

Armor spikes could be an option though... or blade boot?

PS: additional conclusions have been added to playtest post, and more thoughts on DR...


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kryptik wrote:

Very promising for an initial playtest. Well done PDK.

Thought on AoO issue: Bayonet on the big gun/clubbing with the butt of the gun. Pistol whipping with the handguns?

EDIT:Partial ninja by Pendagast, but I'm glad we're thinking along the same lines! :D

Pistol whipping is a standard action, so can't be used as AoO... bayonet part of the playtest? where are the stats for it?

Armor spikes could be an option though... or blade boot?

PS: additional conclusions have been added to playtest post, and more thoughts on DR...

Pathfinder currently has a bayonet, but it's the ye olde kind that's stuck in the barrel of the gun. 1d6 x2 Piercing.

My thoughts were more of a hypothetical fix to the AoO problem. Make the better kind of bayonet, the ringed one that slides onto the exterior of the barrel. I don't think that the somewhat lackluster damage of the bayonet will be overpowered in that situation.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kryptik wrote:

Very promising for an initial playtest. Well done PDK.

Thought on AoO issue: Bayonet on the big gun/clubbing with the butt of the gun. Pistol whipping with the handguns?

EDIT:Partial ninja by Pendagast, but I'm glad we're thinking along the same lines! :D

Pistol whipping is a standard action, so can't be used as AoO... bayonet part of the playtest? where are the stats for it?

Armor spikes could be an option though... or blade boot?

PS: additional conclusions have been added to playtest post, and more thoughts on DR...

There's some bayonet stats in the APG, if I remember correctly.


My most recent character was an archery ranger, and seperately applying everything for each arrow was not only tedious, but slowed down the pace of combat. Rangers, especially, almost need a spreadsheet to play correctly.

I for one love the thought of applying DR once. Considering all the other practical advantages the bow has over the gun, I'd say it's a fair trade.

Dark Archive

on the bright side, when you stop using grit to reload mobility becomes less of an issue.


Kryptik wrote:

As a history major, and a hunter of some skill (with both bows and guns), I can dig what you're saying.

But.

We have to be able to let that go. We have to let go our realism hangups the minute an old guy in his pajamas shoots fire and ice from his fingertips. Who knows, maybe fantasy gunsmiths produce more accurate guns than our real-world counterparts did. It's time we stopped clinging to our assumptions (this was not directed at you in a hostile way. I just don't know how to put it any other way.)

But... but... I want to have my cake and eat it, too. :P

I'm sure with enough tinkering, I could get something that works the way I want, but this way does seem like an easy and effective way to rule it.

I'm encouraged by the playtest result, too.

(as an aside, the char. that is the namesake for my screen name happens to be a Warblade, so I'm probably not the right guy to make realism complaints anyways)

Something else I'm not sure has come up yet- what about the 'massive damage' rules? I think it's only fair to require that one of the hits be enough to invoke that rule, otherwise it'll come up almost every round.

Edit: On the bayonet issue- seems like it would work just fine to use the same rules for a more modern bayonet. I don't think anyone's going to call 'broken' on that.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:


Something else I'm not sure has come up yet- what about the 'massive damage' rules? I think it's only fair to require that one of the hits be enough to invoke that rule, otherwise it'll come up almost every round.

Edit: On the bayonet issue- seems like it would work just fine to use the same rules for a more modern bayonet. I don't think anyone's going to call 'broken' on that.

AFAIK the Massive Damage rule is optional. As it is ungodly early in the morning here....I don't think I quite get what you're saying with the "one of the hits be enough to invoke that rule" thing. Are you saying that it should be, like, a once per combat thing?


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
a) shoots bullet: hit/hit/hit/miss (total damage 67, taking 10 off due to vamp's DR 10, for total of 57 damage (would be 37 damage if we apply DR separately -- I'm open to do this either way in the future, so give me your thoughts! for the purpose of this playtest I used total damage then DR at the very end)

Shouldn't DR be applied to EACH attack? Or have I missed something?


Shifty wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
a) shoots bullet: hit/hit/hit/miss (total damage 67, taking 10 off due to vamp's DR 10, for total of 57 damage (would be 37 damage if we apply DR separately -- I'm open to do this either way in the future, so give me your thoughts! for the purpose of this playtest I used total damage then DR at the very end)
Shouldn't DR be applied to EACH attack? Or have I missed something?

PDK was playtesting our (no, actually, his) proposed Gunslinger mechanic, which is applying DR only once as a tradeoff to being limited to a maximum of two targets (dual wielding single shot pistols).

Dark Archive

Kryptik wrote:
AFAIK the Massive Damage rule is optional. As it is ungodly early in the morning here....I don't think I quite get what you're saying with the "one of the hits be enough to invoke that rule" thing. Are you saying that it should be, like, a once per combat thing?

i think he means one single attack has to beat 50 points of damage before totaling it, because adding the damage together before applying the massive damage rule will almost always be above 50.


Sarcon wrote:


Kryptik wrote:
AFAIK the Massive Damage rule is optional. As it is ungodly early in the morning here....I don't think I quite get what you're saying with the "one of the hits be enough to invoke that rule" thing. Are you saying that it should be, like, a once per combat thing?
i think he means one single attack has to beat 50 points of damage before totaling it, because adding the damage together before applying the massive damage rule will almost always be above 50.

Oh! Yeah I see now.

Yeah I think the only fair thing to do would be to keep it the same. So...it would apply to each "attack" rather than the sum of all those attacks represented by the single musketball.

Dark Archive

Would someone please write up a proper paragraph of CRUNCH on how this works, mechanically please so I can really understand it. As I am reading this over and over I am seeing at least slightly different ways that people are interpreting it.

Write it (as close as possible) as you would wish it to appear in print.

Thank you.


First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.

Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.

As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.


Kryptik wrote:
Sarcon wrote:


Kryptik wrote:
AFAIK the Massive Damage rule is optional. As it is ungodly early in the morning here....I don't think I quite get what you're saying with the "one of the hits be enough to invoke that rule" thing. Are you saying that it should be, like, a once per combat thing?
i think he means one single attack has to beat 50 points of damage before totaling it, because adding the damage together before applying the massive damage rule will almost always be above 50.

Oh! Yeah I see now.

Yeah I think the only fair thing to do would be to keep it the same. So...it would apply to each "attack" rather than the sum of all those attacks represented by the single musketball.

Yep, that's what I meant.

On a side note, it is also what we call 'stupid early' here (4am) and I had an idea right as I was falling asleep. (please not that the idea is hopefully not stupid.)

I was thinking, what if bullets in Pathfinder are something more like a Minie ball, rather than a round ball? Perhaps more like a rifled slug? That would help explain the cost, and be 'close enough' to satisfy a lot of people's taste for a little more realism. It works for me, at least. Then, you could even say that those are the bullets required for shooting 'pickle style' and price a regular round shot more like sling bullets.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.

Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.

As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.

Not a bad idea- though not all misfires require 1's, so I assume you mean require all the rolls to be under the misfire chance for the gun?


Carbon D. Metric wrote:

Would someone please write up a proper paragraph of CRUNCH on how this works, mechanically please so I can really understand it. As I am reading this over and over I am seeing at least slightly different ways that people are interpreting it.

Write it (as close as possible) as you would wish it to appear in print.

Thank you.

Keeping in mind it's 5 AM here, here goes...

Devastating Shot:

Gunslingers are skilled at making devastating aimed shots with their guns. When using the full attack option, roll for each increment of your Base Attack Bonus against the AC of your target. Apply weapon damage for each successful roll. When dual wielding pistols, you must designate and announce which increments of your BAB to use for each pistol. Subtract Damage Resistance after the damage has been totaled.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

First off, I've got to say I love this idea, and am strongly considering stealing it for crossbows in a home campaign.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of people discussing the problems with misfires on the first page.

Has anybody considered having a missfire require that all shots rolled for that gun in that round be natural 1's? It just makes sense, that as somebody using a gun becomes more skilled (more BAB, takes Rapidshot, etc) that they would become better able to powder their weapon reliably, and would make sure not to screw things up.

As someone gets better, misfire chance would logically go down.

Not a bad idea- though not all misfires require 1's, so I assume you mean require all the rolls to be under the misfire chance for the gun?

Ugh, yeah, I'd forgotten about how much it sucked that the misfire chance was higher than 1. Even more reason to implement my suggestion that all d20's must misfire for a Pickle-shot to misfire.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:


I was thinking, what if bullets in Pathfinder are something more like a Minie ball, rather than a round ball? Perhaps more like a rifled slug? That would help explain the cost, and be 'close enough' to satisfy a lot of people's taste for a little more realism. It works for me, at least. Then, you could even say that those are the bullets required for shooting 'pickle style' and price a regular round shot more like sling bullets.

Well see...the whole thing that made Minie balls better is that they interacted with the interior rifling of the barrel. As you ram it down, it fits the grooves of the rifle, allowing for better accuracy and limited self-cleaning of detritus from the barrel, as well as faster loading.

That, however, presupposes a rifled weapon in order to justify high cost. I don't think that establishing that as the standard round is a good idea.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

btw gents, misfires are no longer a problem with this regional trait from Halflings of Golarion book:

Isger Fixer (Isger): Everyone in Isger knows how to make
do with substandard equipment, and you can improvise
tools and materials in order to keep a damaged object
working for just a little bit longer. Once per day, you can
tinker with a broken object to allow anyone who uses it to
ignore the penalties for its broken condition for 24 hours
(this does not affect the object’s hit points). At the end of
this time, it regains the broken condition (but you can use
this trait on it over and over again).


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

btw gents, misfires are no longer a problem with this regional trait from Halflings of Golarion book:

Isger Fixer (Isger): Everyone in Isger knows how to make
do with substandard equipment, and you can improvise
tools and materials in order to keep a damaged object
working for just a little bit longer. Once per day, you can
tinker with a broken object to allow anyone who uses it to
ignore the penalties for its broken condition for 24 hours
(this does not affect the object’s hit points). At the end of
this time, it regains the broken condition (but you can use
this trait on it over and over again).

While that's true, do we REALLY want to pidgeon-hole the Pickleslinger into taking the same trait every time? What about in the campaigns that don't use traits? Hence why my strong encouragement to change the pickle-slinger's misfire mechanic to require all d20's misfire.


Kryptik wrote:
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:


I was thinking, what if bullets in Pathfinder are something more like a Minie ball, rather than a round ball? Perhaps more like a rifled slug? That would help explain the cost, and be 'close enough' to satisfy a lot of people's taste for a little more realism. It works for me, at least. Then, you could even say that those are the bullets required for shooting 'pickle style' and price a regular round shot more like sling bullets.

Well see...the whole thing that made Minie balls better is that they interacted with the interior rifling of the barrel. As you ram it down, it fits the grooves of the rifle, allowing for better accuracy and limited self-cleaning of detritus from the barrel, as well as faster loading.

That, however, presupposes a rifled weapon in order to justify high cost. I don't think that establishing that as the standard round is a good idea.

That's why I added the rifled slug bit. I was being lazy so I didn't delete the Minie ball section.

The real point is that I'm just going to imagine that they make some kind of special super-accurate round, which makes sense of both the price of ammo and the accuracy of the pickle-shot.


Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:


That's why I added the rifled slug bit. I was being lazy so I didn't delete the Minie ball section.

The real point is that I'm just going to imagine that they make some kind of special super-accurate round, which makes sense of both the price of ammo and the accuracy of the pickle-shot.

OK, well, you're free to do so.

But practically speaking, there's not really such a thing as a rifled slug. The rifling of the barrel is what makes the difference. Doesn't really matter what the slug looks like, if you fire it through a smooth bore weapon then it's going to come out the same as if were a musketball.

Paizo Employee Designer

Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.

I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.

Thanks for sharing...pickles.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.

I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.

Thanks for sharing...pickles.

W00t! Pickle slingers unite!

And just for the record... I DO think it should be some kind of deed.
Not a Gun mechanic.

Possible a 6th level entry deed (to keep dipping out of the equation)


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.

I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.

Thanks for sharing...pickles.

Hooray! I can rest easier now.

There should definitely be a reference to pickles somewhere in the final Gunslinger writeup.

Paizo Employee Designer

Pendagast wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Sorry, I've been lurking for days here and there, but have not had a chance to comment on this.

I think I'm a fan of the pickle...and the idea.

Thanks for sharing...pickles.

W00t! Pickle slingers unite!

And just for the record... I DO think it should be some kind of deed.
Not a Gun mechanic.

Possible a 6th level entry deed (to keep dipping out of the equation)

I'm thinking a deed too, but I want to play around with a few things and talk with the other designers.

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