Until they change something or release a new version, i see no way to do a full attack, with a full attack BAB class and do more damage than 1d8+4 with a pistol, without uber magicing something that is stupid rare to begin with, which means you'll have to craft the stuff yourself.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
Until they change something or release a new version, i see no way to do a full attack, with a full attack BAB class and do more damage than 1d8+4 with a pistol, without uber magicing something that is stupid rare to begin with, which means you'll have to craft the stuff yourself.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
+100. i completely agree. might as well play a fighter. you need to have 1 gun you can shoot, maybe 2. right now you need too many guns and thats way too much money already, and then you have no magical enhancements on them. something really needs to be done. and at this point its gonna take one of those Paizo miracles (like they did with the Magus) cause at this point idk how to make them any good.
Until they change something or release a new version, i see no way to do a full attack, with a full attack BAB class and do more damage than 1d8+4 with a pistol, without uber magicing something that is stupid rare to begin with, which means you'll have to craft the stuff yourself.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
I've been saying this since I started posting haha.
Also, crafting stuff yourself? While not impossible, HIGHLY improbable given the time it would take to craft a single mundane pistol.
My recommendation is check out and use Ashiel's HoA Gunslinger over in his thread.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
And thus the long hibernation begins
Until they change something or release a new version, i see no way to do a full attack, with a full attack BAB class and do more damage than 1d8+4 with a pistol, without uber magicing something that is stupid rare to begin with, which means you'll have to craft the stuff yourself.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
I've been saying this since I started posting haha.
Also, crafting stuff yourself? While not impossible, HIGHLY improbable given the time it would take to craft a single mundane pistol.
My recommendation is check out and use Ashiel's HoA Gunslinger over in his thread.
ashiels gunslinger is fine, but its not paizo's gunslinger, and so its no good for this playtest.
ashiels gunslinger is fine, but its not paizo's gunslinger, and so its no good for this playtest.
You said yourself Paizo's Gunslinger has failed and you won't use it.
So why not use something that DOES work?Who cares if it's Paizos or not?
ashiels gunslinger is fine, but its not paizo's gunslinger, and so its no good for this playtest.You said yourself Paizo's Gunslinger has failed and you won't use it.
So why not use something that DOES work?Who cares if it's Paizos or not?
her requires six shooters and lever actions to work.
Not looking for that, too western, spaghetti western in theory of basis is fine, but I dont want six shooter and rifles.
Paizo will fix their gunslinger, they arent going to leave it like it is.
her requires six shooters and lever actions to work.Not looking for that, too western, spaghetti western in theory of basis is fine, but I dont want six shooter and rifles.
Paizo will fix their gunslinger, they arent going to leave it like it is.
The very name gunslinger implies such concepts. The very name "Grit" implies such concepts. The Paizo Gunslinger is not what you want it to be, in style, OR effectiveness.
Further, if we did such as archaic guns there IS the matter of the reload. You don't want guns that would be anachronistic, yet still readily useable and playable. You want them to "make sense in your world" but at the same time, you want them readily useable on a play basis, when that just isn't possible. You have said yourself many times that on average a musket could shoot what, 3 times in 1 minute? Have fun when a round is 6 seconds.
My point, you can't have your cake of "realistic guns" without "realistic drawbacks" without throwing "realism" out the window.
Welcome to DnD, there is no realism.
Who cares if it's Paizos or not?
Those who wish to play it in Society.
Until they change something or release a new version, i see no way to do a full attack, with a full attack BAB class and do more damage than 1d8+4 with a pistol, without uber magicing something that is stupid rare to begin with, which means you'll have to craft the stuff yourself.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
Don't worry, a designer here said there final product has viable optional rules:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslinger/gunslingerIsCostProhibitiveThey purposely made the playtest hard to make gunslingers hard to use/rare/expensive.
So wait till final.
Until they change something or release a new version, i see no way to do a full attack, with a full attack BAB class and do more damage than 1d8+4 with a pistol, without uber magicing something that is stupid rare to begin with, which means you'll have to craft the stuff yourself.
It's broken, someone wake me up when it's fixed.
Don't worry, a designer here said there final product has viable optional rules:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslinger/gunslingerIsCostProhibitiveThey purposely made the playtest hard to make gunslingers hard to use/rare/expensive.
So wait till final.
Problem is that the Society oft times does not let you use 'optional rules' for a class in the sense that the price would change. Especially since that designer said that the base gunslinger is the Golarion gunslinger. So if we what a change for Society we need a change in the Base Class.
An NPC class that is worse than the aristocrat?
nah,
there will be a way to do it right, with the guns they say they have set in stone. All they need are the right feats, deeds, and what not to mesh.
I like the idea of the Gun being available but lame to anyone not a gun slinger. Leave the gun alone and fix the slinger.
Either through a rewrite of abilities and deeds.
making it based off the Ranger or the alchemist (alchemist might be the easiest and most fluid)
but running about with six shooters and lever actions isnt going to make the Character class better. Heck I could kill a dragon with a good set of six irons and a yellow boy! Spamming super weapons wont fix a two left handed gunslinger.
There is no sense is play testing a broken version that has been playtested to a screeching hault, nor is there a sense in playtesting a version that will never exist.
We dont' use anything at our table that isnt Pathfinder material, No old 3.5 feats, no outside material. Keeps it simple, keeps it clean. Ashiels gunslinger is cool and neat ideas and all, but they've already as much as said they aren't going to change the gun much, and revolvers and lever actions are a far cry from these guns, not a slight departure.
for those who want to use variant rules and outside sources books, bravo, it's neat.
I just dont want a pile of mags and other source books at my table, "where the heck did that rule come from, or where is this feat printed, or hours spent flipping through something because you can't find it to reference to"
We left that behind when we left for the greener pastures of Pathfinder.
And we play IN Golarion.
You might want to check out the free product, Black Powder Weaponry, to see if the firearms work more to your liking.
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Not looking for that, too western, spaghetti western in theory of basis is fine, but I dont want six shooter and rifles.
Though it has been said before, it bears repeating.
+1
If it is material that won't make it into my campaigns, I don't care enough to see them even finish it. Either it will be flexible enough to work across different times and technologies, or it will be some pigeonholed wild west character in a game of adventure and dungeon-crawls. My money, sadly, rests on that binary.
So those of you who want six-shooters ... good luck to you. But I've got far better rulesets out there for Wild West games.
I just want to say my favorite time in fire arm history is the black powder revolver era of post civil war. I replicate that with my character in SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) with twin 1861 colt navys (no cartridges) but im also a fan of later weapons like the peacemaker.
And by far the mason richards conversions that I use for my SASS shooting ( a blackpowder frame converted to shoot cartidges), is my favorite.
But Im not looking for that in my pathfinder experience and I (and nearly everyone I know) will not use it our gamin experience.
that being said, the single shot (or double barrled variants) of muzzle loader types may find their way into our game on a limited scale and Im very interested in seeing an alchemy gunner, as we all think the alchemist is a little lackluster without master chymist anyway.
That being said. I still think paizo will fix the slinger, because they have said ultimate combat WILL have one in there.
So it WILL get fixed.
my hopes for alchemy gunners and the class being based off a ranger archetype may not see the light of day. And Realism be damned they will fix it with feats/abilites/deeds, im sure of it.
Isn't this why we are play testing the bloody thing? Seriously Just like the Magus they are listening to our comments on this and the Gunslinger we see now will be changed. It seems to me that everyone is judging this class based off an Alpha Play test which is dumb if you ask me. Continue to give feed back and play test this to the ground and let the devs do their part in fixing it.
Notes on the gun they have said in several posts that there will be different guns than the one in the play test.
We were not even play testing the guns we were play testing the Classes use of said items and that is where the feedback must go.
Making or posting you own class or even using house rules for the play test taints the results. Lets do our part and give them what we think the class has going for it and where the problems are so we can get a nice solid class in return.
What the Class has going for it:
1: I love the Grit mechanic it gives the gunslinger a cinematic feel.
The ways you get Grit back all work, yes even daring act. (I've never had problems arbitrating stunts in my game. This even came with all the basics needed for arbitration Acrobatics roll equal to 10+ your acrobatics bonus (50% chance) with some amount of real danger if you fail.
2: With the exception of Perception and Sleight of Hand the class skills are pretty solid what you would want.
3: Amateur Gunslinger: I was very happy to see that you made the Grit Mechanic open to every one through feat selection very good move.
4: I like that the weapons do touch damage at the first range increment it ensures the Gunslinger's player move around a bit to place his shots at the best possible moments.
Where I had problems:
1: Damage dealing lagged way behind the fighter. It needs something added feats, class abilities, new deeds... something to bring up damage potential.
2: There needs to be an option to choose 1 pistol and 50 shots worth of powder and bullets.
3: Viable way to use two pistol combat.
4: Quick Clear should be as long as you have a Grit Point, not spend 1 Grit. It is bad enough you lose your action to clear it should not cost a grit as well. Feels like triple jeopardy for rolling bad.
5: Some of the deeds need to be rewritten to avoid munchkinism like Secret Stash the ammo and powder gained should not be able to be sold.
6: The class is feat starved and could use some of the fighters bonus feats.
7: Perception and Sleight of Hand should be added to the class skill list it would make sense.
I really want this class and am still going to play the Gunslinger I currently have. Out of the three this one is my favorite thematically.
@Pendagast yes I want to see an Alchemical Gunman and a Gun Mage hopefully based off of the Magus.
We were not even play testing the guns we were play testing the Classes use of said items and that is where the feedback must go.
We aren't playtesting guns because they are already set in stone for use in the setting of Golarion.
THEREFORE: Guns are the worst weapons in the game, and the Gunslinger is horrible BECAUSE of this.
Also Grit and deeds are awful, and the class has the worst feat tax this side of... anything.
I despise the Grit and Deeds mechanics. It's one more tacked on, fiddly point based subsystem that eats up more time and attention than Rage Points or Bardic Performance rounds. And on top of that, they are near-useless. Add in the fact that non-Gunslingers can buy into this madness with a feat means that the whole Grit/Deeds system is like a mini-game inside the rest of the game.
Everything required to make this class fit seemlessly and effectively into an adventuring group could be handled with a couple of Combat Feat trees (or Rogue Talents even).
That plus 51gp for a chance to do less damage than you could with a board with a nail in it kinda says it all.
That plus 51gp for a chance to do less damage than you could with a board with a nail in it kinda says it all.
I fear that the 51gp for a wasted shot may come from the3rd and I. When we first looked at the book, we thought the powder was 50gp a shot not 10gp. Even so, the point stands.
As another topic pointed out, Amateur Barbarian too? Or just the Gunslinger?
I thought the whole purpose of the playtest was to make these issues known? So if it is, and that is what you are doing, why all the end-of-the-world theatrics and finality?
I'm sure they see your complaints and are considering them.
Oops. Ok, 11gp a shot. Almost as much as a scroll of sleep. Almost two shots for the price of 1 vial of Alchemist's Fire. Or 4 shots almost costs the same as a potion of cure light wounds. Or better yet, enlarge person.
What is it, 2gp for 20 arrows that do similar damage and have 0% chance of blowing up in your hand?
Oops. Ok, 11gp a shot. Almost as much as a scroll of sleep. Almost two shots for the price of 1 vial of Alchemist's Fire. Or 4 shots almost costs the same as a potion of cure light wounds. Or better yet, enlarge person.
What is it, 2gp for 20 arrows that do similar damage and have 0% chance of blowing up in your hand?
1gp for 20 arrows.
Director of Game Design
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Hey there folks,
This is a playtest. Your concerns are important to us and we are listening to them. If you want to throw up your hands and say its broken, thats fine. If you don't want to play this version, fine too. There is no need to devote a thread to discussing whether or not you should playtest, or whether or not to use an alternate version.
If thats all this thread is, then your concern is noted and we can all move along. We know there are some problems with the class and the rules. We are working to fix them. That is why this is a playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey there folks,
This is a playtest. Your concerns are important to us and we are listening to them. If you want to throw up your hands and say its broken, thats fine. If you don't want to play this version, fine too. There is no need to devote a thread to discussing whether or not you should playtest, or whether or not to use an alternate version.
If thats all this thread is, then your concern is noted and we can all move along. We know there are some problems with the class and the rules. We are working to fix them. That is why this is a playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
We know that Jason, we're happy to playtest. It's just that at the moment, it feels sort of like being asked to volunteer to stick your hand into a sanding wheel while it's on.
Guns are fixed and will not be changed, due to Golarian requirements (although I thought the core rules were setting neutral, whatever).
Guns currently are the worst possible weapon you could ever use. Bar none. That's not an opinion, there simply isn't any weapon currently on the charts that is as bad as them, even at first level. A 1d2 tiny dagger at the very least is cheap and works every time. Nor does it cost 1/12th of your average starting gold per attack with it.
When you get to iterative attack range, the damage simply doesn't scale like other weapons. The old Warlock classes, which this sort of reminds me of, scaled the damage, even though you could only make one attack per round with the eldritch blast. Firearms don't scale, don't allow for iteratives, so you end up with a 12th level class doing at most 1d8+15 or so, once per round.
Most of this can be taken back to the firearms, not the class. And with firearms fixed in concrete, there's simply no way any of us can see to get around that.
If it's any consolation, I love the Ninja (although would rather either the ninja tricks be rogue talents, or that the two be seperate classes that can use each others tricks).
The samurai seems pretty decent as well.
The gunslinger... blech (and most of the blech is from the firearms).
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Director of Game Design
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So, we've got this message, loud and clear. We are looking at a number of different ways to address this issue. You have to understand that we have a few conflicting interests here that we have to serve.
We don't want guns to be common in Golarion, hence the price.
We do want a gunslinger character.
We do want to give you the ability to make guns more prevalent in your game, if you want.
We do want guns to be an approximation of the way they worked historically.
We don't need them to be a perfect model of that history.
We do want them to possibly have the same effect on the game that they had historically if you want.
We do want them to be a viable, cool option for characters.
We don't want them to be broken and way too good.
As you can see.. guns are very tricky. The rules presented are the ones appearing in the upcoming World Guide. They primarily serve the first master. The guns and the rules you find in Ultimate Combat are going to be a bit more open, flexible, and permissive, helping to serve a lot of other masters.
That said, we are taking in a lot of feedback in the way that guns work. We are going to take that and make the rules work, through new guns and various options. I think the thing I find most disturbing here is that folks so readily just throw up their hands and walk away, assuming that we are just going to leave it as is, and ignore the feedback we are getting. We can't always listen to the concerns of the playtesters, if other factors are in play, but we do try. I think we have a pretty good track record of that, but it seems like memories are very short.
Give us some time here folks.. and some patience. We'll get it right.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So, we've got this message, loud and clear. We are looking at a number of different ways to address this issue. You have to understand that we have a few conflicting interests here that we have to serve.
We don't want guns to be common in Golarion, hence the price.
We do want a gunslinger character.
We do want to give you the ability to make guns more prevalent in your game, if you want.
We do want guns to be an approximation of the way they worked historically.
We don't need them to be a perfect model of that history.
We do want them to possibly have the same effect on the game that they had historically if you want.
We do want them to be a viable, cool option for characters.
We don't want them to be broken and way too good.As you can see.. guns are very tricky. The rules presented are the ones appearing in the upcoming World Guide. They primarily serve the first master. The guns and the rules you find in Ultimate Combat are going to be a bit more open, flexible, and permissive, helping to serve a lot of other masters.
That said, we are taking in a lot of feedback in the way that guns work. We are going to take that and make the rules work, through new guns and various options. I think the thing I find most disturbing here is that folks so readily just throw up their hands and walk away, assuming that we are just going to leave it as is, and ignore the feedback we are getting. We can't always listen to the concerns of the playtesters, if other factors are in play, but we do try. I think we have a pretty good track record of that, but it seems like memories are very short.
Give us some time here folks.. and some patience. We'll get it right.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
May I ask when you are basing the guns? If you are basing them on Napoleonic-Era fire-arms or later, it wouldn't be a huge leap to have breakover cartridge fed rifles/muskets.
That being said, I have play tested the Gunslinger some myself, and an expanded Grit list would also do no harm.
Hey there folks,
This is a playtest. Your concerns are important to us and we are listening to them. If you want to throw up your hands and say its broken, thats fine. If you don't want to play this version, fine too. There is no need to devote a thread to discussing whether or not you should playtest, or whether or not to use an alternate version.
If thats all this thread is, then your concern is noted and we can all move along. We know there are some problems with the class and the rules. We are working to fix them. That is why this is a playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The worry, as expressed in a few other places, is that many of the problems are centralized in the weapn, not the class...and we've been told that the weapons will not be changed.
We aren't giving up because we want to. We're giving up because, at least from what we've seen, our efforts are futile.
Too sum up mdt
Gunslinger is fine, guns suck
added together, gunslinger sucks.
Now if we make gunslinger uber OP awesome!!!!! and guns still suck then you have a class that will more then likely pick up a sling and break the game while completely ignoring his guns (he is better without them, cause they suck)
In order for the gunslinger to make up for his weapon he has to be made waaay too good
That's what this thread is about.
essentially without whatever new gun options you have coming in UC this playtest is pointless
...Oh no, the Gunslinger has it's own horde of problems ;p
But one of the bigger problems is that he's based entirely around a weapon that doesn't work.
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I think we have a pretty good track record of that, but it seems like memories are very short.
Give us some time here folks.. and some patience. We'll get it right
I'm sure you will. Paizo has put out some pretty fantastic products and this is only the playtest period.
Our home group has been playing a campaign set in and around Alkenstar for about six months now, so we're really looking forward to the new firearm rules and gunslinger class.
Hey there folks,
This is a playtest. Your concerns are important to us and we are listening to them. If you want to throw up your hands and say its broken, thats fine. If you don't want to play this version, fine too. There is no need to devote a thread to discussing whether or not you should playtest, or whether or not to use an alternate version.
If thats all this thread is, then your concern is noted and we can all move along. We know there are some problems with the class and the rules. We are working to fix them. That is why this is a playtest.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, I was hoping to ask you personally.
Can you explain why the Paizo team has decided that firearms are even included in Pathfinder like this? As I've noted in this post (primary) and this post (secondary), guns in Pathfinder make so very little sense that it's devastating to verisimilitude. There's no logical reason - even in a fantasy world - for them to even be used; or for their price tags to be so high when no one would buy or use them except a handful of suicidal people.Could you explain to use why the Pathfinder Design Team has decided to go with this path, rather than something that seemed a bit less hostile towards those who would like to use guns and logic? I've been wondering very heavily myself, as I really cannot come up with a single reason why this choice would be made ("flavor" doesn't seem to make much sense, as this is prohibitive to the kind of flavor I was under the impression was supposed to exist.
According to page 58-59 of the PFCS, the Grand Duchy of Alkenstar, it notes that the guns are produced in a factory in mass-production manner, and churns out non-masterwork firearms, but that independent gunsmiths repair, modify, or craft guns themselves which are of masterwork quality. It then goes on to say, on page 59, that the factory only produces only 1 gun per day, and 5 siege weapons per year, intentionally to drive the price up (which makes absolutely no sense), and could produce guns exponentially if desired.
How do you plan to address that no one would want these guns, let alone spend money on them? A business would surely fail, and fail hard, doing something like this. Do you also plan to explain how and why guns aren't cheaper to craft yourself, or purchased from one of these independent gunsmiths who probably would like to actually sell a firearm? Price must meet demand, as they say, and if there is little demand there will be little price (as is, slings are superior in pretty much every way for military purposes and they are free).
Perhaps you could explain the thought process behind these decisions, so that we can better understand what we're supposed to be looking at?
Much thanks in Advance.
EDIT: Perhaps another way to put this would be, if you're trying to sell Pathfinder Books to make a profit, do you intentionally produce only 365 rather lackluster copies of a manual over the course of the year, and then charge $4,000 per manual?
Likewise, do you feel people would pay hundreds of dollars for a metal toothpick when they can get a pack of 50 for $1; just because the metal ones are intentionally less common?
Edit 2: Having noticed that I got ninja'd by your previous post, could you also explain why firearms have to be so amazingly overpriced to make them uncommon in Golarion, anymore than they are uncommon in the Forgotten Realms, or anymore uncommon than the Double Bladed Sword is? When was the last time you saw everyone running around with a double-bladed sword?
Edit 2.5: Or scythes for that matter. Or simply noting that they are very uncommon everywhere except Alkenstar? Is it a fear that PCs may like and/or attempt to use them and thus it's an attempt at offering players something but not intending for them to actually have it, or is it more from a fear that GMs might begin equipping a bunch of NPCs in Varisia with firearms?
I always thought that they were "exotic" would honestly be enough to show them as being rare.
I mean isn't that exactly why "exotic" weapons exist? Why even make them exotic if they're going to cost more then magic weapons?
:psyduck:
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According to page 58-59 of the PFCS, the Grand Duchy of Alkenstar, it notes that the guns are produced in a factory in mass-production manner, and churns out non-masterwork firearms, but that independent gunsmiths repair, modify, or craft guns themselves which are of masterwork quality. It then goes on to say, on page 59, that the factory only produces only 1 gun per day, and 5 siege weapons per year, intentionally to drive the price up (which makes absolutely no sense), and could produce guns exponentially if desired
I assume it has something to do with the fact that the vast majority of firearms are bought and kept local in Alkenstar, it being a magic-dead area and whatnot.
The government of Alkenstar would want guns to be prohibitively expensive and rare outside of their country in order to prevent a potential enemy from building up a large enough stockpile to threaten them with invasion. So they only sell a few at exorbitant prices, mainly to collectors and the like, while keeping their own people flush with firearms and ammo.
Anyone invading Alkenstar without firearms would be at a disadvantage. They would lose access to the arcane (and possibly divine, depending on how the Mana Wastes work) magic that otherwise dominates warfare in the rest of the world. Yes, they would have bows and crossbows but the people of Alkenstar would have lots of guns and ammo and pre-built fortifications that they can shoot from.
I assume it has something to do with the fact that the vast majority of firearms are bought and kept local in Alkenstar, it being a magic-dead area and whatnot.
The government of Alkenstar would want guns to be prohibitively expensive and rare outside of their country in order to prevent a potential enemy from building up a large enough stockpile to threaten them with invasion. So they only sell a few at exorbitant prices, mainly to collectors and the like, while keeping their own people flush with firearms and ammo.
Anyone invading Alkenstar without firearms would be at a disadvantage. They would lose access to the arcane (and possibly divine, depending on how the Mana Wastes work) magic that otherwise dominates warfare in the rest of the world. Yes, they would have bows and crossbows but the people of Alkenstar would have lots of guns and ammo and pre-built fortifications that they can shoot from.
But as presented, Alkenstar would rapidly fall to the ravaging powers of those with weapons that worked. First off, unless every soldier they had was a gunslinger, their firearms cannot work. Secondly, at the range most warfare in a D&D environment takes place, their firearms cannot work. Magic aside, even if you simply had a group of longbowmen light their arrows on fire and rain them down, they would destroy anything.
If enemies were mounted in Griffins, the favorite mount of the Sable Company of Korvosa, they would be untouchable by cannons and firearms, while igniting their buildings with dropped alchemist fires from the sky, for example, and the firearms have no hope of retaliation in the least.
So as is, the entire game would have to be changed to somehow account for all of these "flavorful" drawbacks.
Perhaps, it would seem, that the reason no one ha bothered with Alkenstar is because no one wants it. They don't want their technology, and they don't want their magic-dead land, so they just don't bother them, and they don't fear Alkenstar or even consider it a legitimate military power of any sort, because they could simply beat back any advancements with sticks and stones and the occasional fireball with minimal casualties.
Edit: And no, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky.
I always thought that they were "exotic" would honestly be enough to show them as being rare.
I mean isn't that exactly why "exotic" weapons exist? Why even make them exotic if they're going to cost more then magic weapons?
:psyduck:
Exactly, they should be exotic and not expensive or Martial and expensive as they are currently.
The exotic feat shouldn't be a cool tax. It should be better than martial in some way (nunchaku can be flurried as an example).
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Director of Game Design
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Folks,
I will let the Golarion team answer questions about the way that guns work in Golarion. My focus is primarily on making these rules work in the larger rule books. Price aside, which is an area that can be easily modified, the rest of the rules are a far greater concern to me, as far as balance in the game.
We are looking at a number of different schemes by which a GM might introduce guns into their game, including modifying price and proficiency level needed to us. This will be in Ultimate Combat. I have been working on such rules for a bit now and have a rough draft sketched out.
Guns are currently very expensive and very hard to use. This is the least permissive way that guns could be added to a campaign, aside from banning them outright. For many, I suspect they will fall somewhere around these levels of permissiveness. Some going much more common, others outright disallowing them.
We are aware of this. We are accounting for it. This is why we playtest, to get a feel of the fanbase.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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But as presented, Alkenstar would rapidly fall to the ravaging powers of those with weapons that worked. First off, unless every soldier they had was a gunslinger, their firearms cannot work. Secondly, at the range most warfare in a D&D environment takes place, their firearms cannot work. Magic aside, even if you simply had a group of longbowmen light their arrows on fire and rain them down, they would destroy anything.
If enemies were mounted in Griffins, the favorite mount of the Sable Company of Korvosa, they would be untouchable by cannons and firearms, while igniting their buildings with dropped alchemist fires from the sky, for example, and the firearms have no hope of retaliation in the least.
So as is, the entire game would have to be changed to somehow account for all of these "flavorful" drawbacks.
Perhaps, it would seem, that the reason no one ha bothered with Alkenstar is because no one wants it. They don't want their technology, and they don't want their magic-dead land, so they just don't bother them, and they don't fear Alkenstar or even consider it a...
Here are my thoughts:
1.) Why wouldn't the firearms work? You don't need to be a gunslinger to use a firearm. If the soldiers are proficient in firearms, they should be able to shoot just fine.
2.) Yes, the two weapons listed so far have fairly short ranges. The pistol caps out at 100 ft and the musket at 200 ft. But that doesn't mean there are only two types of firearms in the world. If rifles exist anywhere in the world then Alkenstar has them.
3.) A group of archers gathered together raining down arrows make a great target for a cannon shot or black-powder bomb. The invading army wouldn't have the ability to do massive area damage, but Alkenstar would. Plus, the gunners of Alkenstar could construct defenses that have ceilings on them. They could sit safely in their bunkers made from brick or stone while the invaders waste arrows, and open fire when the enemy closes.
4.) Flying enemies would, again, be subjected to longer-range firearms held by more experienced gunners. The people flying the griffons would either have to stay far away and have a really small chance of hitting anything, or fly closer for better accuracy and risk getting shot. Griffons aren't cheap or plentiful. You can replace guns and ammo a lot faster than you can breed new griffon mounts.
I'm sure the generally nasty geography of the Mana Wastes plays a role in why no one wants to invade Alkenstar, but they ARE described as being very mineral-rich. Plus they have banks and fairly advanced engineers. So they definitely have valuable stuff to take. The fact that Alkenstar can't really invade anyone else makes them a minor "threat" regionally, but they are also a pretty good place to both do business and use as neutral ground in diplomatic talks.
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I will let the Golarion team answer questions about the way that guns work in Golarion. My focus is primarily on making these rules work in the larger rule books. Price aside, which is an area that can be easily modified, the rest of the rules are a far greater concern to me, as far as balance in the game.
Oh yeah. This thread is in the playtest forum. Oops. Sorry for derailing into a thread about the politics of Alkenstar.
Carry on.
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We don't want guns to be common in Golarion, hence the price.
We do want a gunslinger character.
We do want to give you the ability to make guns more prevalent in your game, if you want.
We do want guns to be an approximation of the way they worked historically.
We don't need them to be a perfect model of that history.
We do want them to possibly have the same effect on the game that they had historically if you want.
We do want them to be a viable, cool option for characters.
We don't want them to be broken and way too good.As you can see.. guns are very tricky. The rules presented are the ones appearing in the upcoming World Guide. They primarily serve the first master. The guns and the rules you find in Ultimate Combat are going to be a bit more open, flexible, and permissive, helping to serve a lot of other masters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Would it really be so bad just to have guns in Ultimate combat follow the rules that all other weapons follow? (Basically like a crossbow only with a highter critical multiplyer and possibly a better damage die. If prices remain as they are now for them I dont see them becoming overpowering at all.
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Director of Game Design
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My question is: Why do firearms have to be outrageously expensive to keep them somewhat rare?
Like Ashiel pointed out, double-bladed swords aren't particularly common, despite being mechanically superior to longsword-shortsword combinations. The difference between that and a firearm should be negligible. Both are exotic weapons which require a single feat to use proficiently. Instead, where the two-bladed sword is only 100gp, and mechanically superior to other blade combos, the musket is 1500gp and mechanically inferior to the bow.
I think the double bladed sword is a bit of a bad example to be honest. Double bladed swords are not common because they are not iconic. Not only that, most consider them kinda silly. Guns are bringing up arguments like these because folks really want to use them. Rarity can be due to scarcity, but it can also be due to cost of manufacture. In either case, these are usually campaign concerns. Hence, we will be offering options in Ultimate Magic in this regard..
Not sure how many more times I need to say that...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Not sure how many more times I need to say that...
Jason Bulmahn
Reading you loud and clear, Jason. ;p
More on topic, the sheer amount of aggro you're pulling on this means that people are concerned and working on things. I'm testing a bonus-damage-to-full-attack system I'm hoping will be mechanically viable, I posted here.
We start the playtest on saturday to see how it actually covers in a game beside a spellcaster and a third party martial class. I'll be side-by-side testing an archer-style fighter right next to it for damage potential, using the same style of build.
So, back to topic: Can you find out for us if Golarion Gunslingers are going to have access to revolvers in order to make the full attack ability POSSIBLE at higher levels? If they're required to use muskets/pistols as provided, the class is completely inadequate as written.
If no multi-shot/revolver style weapons are going to be offered, we can continue to work on the single-shot musket style weapons, and focus our concerns there.
Keep in mind also that the game doesn't represent time to train someone to use a weapon.
Training someone to use a longbow takes years and a lot of strength. Training someone to use a gun to the same level of accuracy takes weeks. Yet both cost just one feat, and the game doesn't have any rules for regulating how long it takes to reach level 1 in a real class.
In Earth history, guns started to replace bows when (1) the technology became reliable as bows, (2) manufacturing them approached the same time and expense as creating bows, and (3) the time and expense to train a rifleman became less than the time and expense to train a bowman. In terms of game mechanics, we have easy ways to regulate #1 and #2, and not an easy way of regulating #3 without retrofitting training rules onto the rest of the game--a game where a 20-year-old wizard might become the most powerful wizard in the world over the course of a year's worth of adventuring.
Training time is a "brake" on how quickly guns overtake a world, but we don't have a mechanic for that. If firearms are common enough in the world that you could issue one to every 1st-level warrior in the army, you'd consider them a martial weapon, not an exotic weapon. Even as an exotic weapon, every 1st-level warrior in the army could spend his or her feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Because we don't want guns to be that common (either in the campaign setting or in the typical campaign we expect you're playing), we have to find other ways to make sure guns aren't that common. One way is to regulate the damage. Another is to regulate the reliability. Another is to regulate the price. Another is to fiddle with what a built-for-guns character can do with them. And at the same time, we don't want to overshadow the other classes in the game.
We're trying to find the balanced middle ground between all of those things. And because we know we're not perfect, that's why we do open playtests for this sort of thing--so we can get feedback and revise the design.
So give us feedback. Telling us your concerns is helpful. Ranting isn't helpful. Pointing out potential problems is helpful. Taking your marbles and going home isn't helpful. Saying that you don't want this in your campaign at all isn't helpful. Playtest. Give us data. We're going to do our very best to make this balanced and fun--all the while keeping in mind the constraints we've set out for these options.
And if you decide you don't like it, for whatever reason, you still have the option to not use it in your campaign--it is a very small part of the book (there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined).
(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined)
Please say "just kidding."
Please tell me you aren't turning Ultimate Combat into yet another Fun Book For Wizards.
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Director of Game Design
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(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined)Please say "just kidding."
Please tell me you aren't turning Ultimate Combat into yet another Fun Book For Wizards.
Neither receive huge footprints in the book to be honest. But we are providing some combat focused spells for all of the classes. In addition, we are using that space to provide spells for some of the concepts that appear in Ultimate Combat.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined).
That quote is a bit worrisome, I'll admit.
It is truly difficult to give an fair and balanced assessment of Gunslinger as a class when we don't have access to the range of weapons they will have.
That being said, a few general points, since this thread has the eyes of the devs. Please take these as constructive, as I truly look forward to playing a 'slinger ASAP! These ideas are not necessarily my own in particular, but more a list of thoughts from reading the forum here at large- if you see your idea, pat yourself on the back. ;)
- Many more Deeds are required - look at rogue/ninja and their list of talents, which are *not* predicated by spending point from a finite pool. Introducing a great deal more Deeds will allow for selecting from a list of Deeds, and that would let us customize our Gunslinger for our own playstyle. This can include 'lines' of Deeds geared towards specific fighting styles... ie: 2H Firearm Marksman vs. TWF Pistol-wielder vs. Pirate style 1H weapon and 1H Pistol.
- Strength level of deeds: Frankly, most of the deeds as listed seem so low power that I am not interested in them, and some of the flavorful / fun Deeds are reached far too late for them to be 'fun' - ie: Shoot Unattended Object at 11th level? Really?
- Reload Times: This is a large part of why we care so much about what guns will be available... a martial class with full BAB that needs to spend 3 feats (Rapid and Lightning Reload, Signature Deed) so that they can reach their full iterative attacks only at level 11 is simply not viable. If revolvers / repeaters will be in play, reload times are important, but not nearly AS important as they are with single shot fire arms. Rapid Reload as a class feature might very well be warranted.
- Damage Output: I leave this to the guys willing to do math, but it is compounded by the reload time/iterative attack issues, whatever the case may be. As an attempt at making the Gunslinger 'special' regarding guns, why not add in DEX modifier to firearm damage at level 1 for Gunslingers, and then perhaps allow for adding WIS damage via Gun Training to specific weaponry. This max firearms slightly more competitive on a shot for shot basis with bows, and allows them to extend their damage a bit with the WIS boost to combat the iterative attack/reload time disparity with bows.
- Dead Levels: Brave and Tough? Much like even levels for a Cleric, the 'Brave and Tough' levels are just plain disappointing. Again, adding in a great many more Deeds would offset this by allowing folks to get new Deeds at every single level, even if they are minor ones.
- Feats: Again, hard to judge without the specifics of available weapons, but it's alreaedy been mentioned clearly and repeatedly that the 'slinger will need to spend 3 feats in order to reach full iterative attacks, and this only at level 11. Considering most will likely want to add in Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, this class is insanely feat heavy, and the deeds are frankly not offsetting the fighter bonus feats that are missed out on at this point.
- HP / BAB / Saves / Proficiencies: This looks great to me. It's a martial class. You trade out heavy armor and gain exotic:firearms. Good deal.
- Grit: More Grit, please. Perhaps WIS modifier + 1/2 level. Also, create more deeds that require having grit in your pool as opposed to spending grit.
- Firearm rules: Perhaps part of what is upsetting folks most is how it was explicitly stated that firearm rules are set in stone. It's hard to playtest a class, based around those rules, withoutfull information on available weapons, when right off the bat we are told 'this does not change'. If that is the case, which is fine, then the Gunslinger needs to have innate features that overcome the inherent disabilities of firearms. You are more likely to have your weapon explode than to score a crit. That is a huge problem. Guns should have a misfire chance, and if for balance and 'rare expensive and new technology' reasons the misfire chance must be that high, then the Gunslinger needs to be immune to misfiring, and without expenditure of Grit. It is counterintuitive to have a specialist at something need to spend their very finite 'Grit' to simply not have their equipment explode in their hands. As has been said before - offsetting a powerful weapon with a disadvantage like misfire is absolutely sensible - but firearms are kin to crossbows, and do not need to be balanced thusly.
- Pricing: The exorbitant pricing is sensible if you are striving to keep the weapons rare and unusual. I will not argue that. The problem is that you need to now justify these extremely expensive weapons to a 1st level character. 11gp per shot is also unreasonable - a starting character simply can't afford to use his class defining weaponry at that price.
- Crafting rules/bonuses: Can we get some info on making firearms, shot, blackpowder, etc? Along with inherent bonuses for the gunslinger class?
- Perception: Uhm... this seems a no brainer, methinks?
- Signature Deed & Secret Stash: This needs some form of clarification, as far too many folks have already stipulated that it's an exploitable printing press.
(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined)Please say "just kidding."
Please tell me you aren't turning Ultimate Combat into yet another Fun Book For Wizards.
Neither receive huge footprints in the book to be honest. But we are providing some combat focused spells for all of the classes. In addition, we are using that space to provide spells for some of the concepts that appear in Ultimate Combat.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
since im the OP let me answer a few things:
1) when i posted it, i was hoping someone would answer with something like "if you use X, with Y and then get Z at level N" ......
2) Ive play tested gunslinger all I can, that was my point. The Way i was using him (with vital strike and TWF or combining improved crit with targeting torso) doesn't work because the rules wont over lap. (which i think should change for the gun slinger, personally)
3) Ive made ALL my suggestions on this version of the gunslinger I can.
4) previous alpha and beta test classes were still playable, but i knew there were improvements comming, but the only way I can play a gunslinger right now is house ruling unfinished rules, I dont want to do that, I want to wait for new improved rules I know will be comming.
With that said, I agree with what the devs are trying to do. I like misfires.
I like Grit.
I like the concept and idea.
I posted my ideas how i thought I'd do it, which are neither here nor there.
But there is nothing left for me to do, at this moment but wait for rules updates. The gunslinger right now IS unplayable. I do not think it's the "guns fault".
I think the 'slinger needs more deeds or class abilities to add TO the Gun. If hes a super natural skilled gunslinger, im fine with that. So are ninjas, and fighters anywhere above level 5, or Alchemists or whatnot, if you're going to fight and defeat an imaginary dragon you have to be imaginarily good enough.
I am hoping the Dev's DO NOT go the six shooter/lever action route. I hoping they go the class abilities/deeds route (or the alchemist base alternative class route)
If anyone has any suggestions on what to do with the current gunslinger and any combinations other than a level dip of gunslinger mixed with some other class, im all ears, but right now I cant think of anything to do with a gunslinger than make him have 15 second adventure day, either that or he'd make a spiffy butler.
BTW I want a two pistol gunslinger, that's what im interested in, and i don't care how many pistols I have to carry around, I like the brace of pistols idea.
I just need to be able to do damage with them.
(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined)Please say "just kidding."
Please tell me you aren't turning Ultimate Combat into yet another Fun Book For Wizards.
I guess spellcasters in your game never participate in combat? They don't need spells that do combat maneuvers? Spells that affect combat rolls and AC? Spells to influence vehicle combat? Your paladins, rangers, bards, and clerics never participate in combat with magic?