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Summoner Eidolon Brokeness?


Advice

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I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.
You decide...

Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)

Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses Darkvision

AC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9

Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])

Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)

Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.


I am not certain but I am pretty sure you could make your eidolon nastier than this. You Eidolon should have 26 evolution points at lvl 20. 5 more if you are a half elf. They can have 7 natural attacks at 20. You are using 4 so you could easily spend 1 r 2 action points to obtain a few more claws. Also rake or multiweapon fighting are both ways to really push eidolon attack numbers up.

On a once go through the eidolon is a huge list to of options to go through. You don't need to start rushing out builds.


Matthias_DM wrote:

I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.

You decide...

Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)

Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses Darkvision

AC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9

Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])

Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)

Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.

The game degenerates around the upper teens. Now there's few a more things that you can do to make your eidolon more beastly (enlarge person works on it via shared spells). However, a simple dismissal or banishment will make the eidolon go poof. Also forcecage or wall of force will delay it. I can assure you that if you're doing a level 20 one-shot, monsters probably need to be a solid CR 25 for it to be a challenge for a reasonably optimized party. Also while dominating combat is fun, you can still get smacked down by things such as screen and NPC organizations simply not liking you very much.


thepuregamer wrote:
I am not certain but I am pretty sure you could make your eidolon nastier than this. You Eidolon should have 26 evolution points at lvl 20. 5 more if you are a half elf.

That's my point... I didn't even use all the points on the Eidolon and it's still overpowered.

I didn't even include the fact that I would be an exact replica of the eidolon with my magic items buffing me for 20 minutes per day.

I'm not trying to build a better Eidolon... it's no fun to cut through dragons one a round.


Yar.

Honestly, it doesn't look that bad at all. I don't have time to go into super details and build posting, but having played in and DMed epic level groups for many years (most of which started at low levels and worked their way up into the mid twenties and once even into the 50's (took about a decade irl to get there), plus the occasional one-timer) I can say that the level 20 summoner/Eidolon really isn't that big of a deal.

This is, of course, based purely on my own actual experiences with epic level play in various editions, including pathfinder and with this class in particular (the most recent high level group went from 3 to 18th level, and included a Fighter, a Cavalier, a Wizard/Psion, a Lich Wizard (who we were slowly turning good), and a Summoner).

Perhaps it's just my groups playstyle, but I dare say that this build is, in my experience at least, a fair bit on the weak side. Though I do like that it appears to constantly try to go for the eyes. :D

~P


This Eidolon is really weak.

I cast Dominate Monster, your turn.

Also, you have no Hp, no ac and not that much damage.

Compare e.G. to a two handed lance wielding Mounted spirited charging Fighter 20 you kinda loose.

+ if you have a intelligent foe (like a dragon) it will ignore the Eidolon and simply kill, planeshift or dominate the summoner.


Matthias_DM wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
I am not certain but I am pretty sure you could make your eidolon nastier than this. You Eidolon should have 26 evolution points at lvl 20. 5 more if you are a half elf.

That's my point... I didn't even use all the points on the Eidolon and it's still overpowered.

I didn't even include the fact that I would be an exact replica of the eidolon with my magic items buffing me for 20 minutes per day.

I'm not trying to build a better Eidolon... it's no fun to cut through dragons one a round.

Well his having access to 90 ft perfect flight is part of what makes him so special. But as has been said, he can be banished. luckily bipeds have a strong will save. But I am unsure his dpr is going to be more devastating than a fighters. I think you have miscalculated his strength as it should be 32 not 42. He might have less dpr than an archer. on the plus side any non flying melee character is going to get wrecked by him as he has 15-20ft reach and can hover in the air above any grounded melee targets he wants to attack without risk. Also the great thing about eidolons is the summoner isn't taking the risk and so death falls onto your minion not yourself which is nice.

Does anyone have any experience playtesting lvl 20 optimized eidolons?

Osirion

Will 9. Every wizard over 5th level will have Devolution available, most via arcane bond. That huge evolution is 10 points, and your beast crashes from huge all the way down to medium. Now, unable to wield your weapon that is two category sizes too big, you are neutered to 4x +21, 2d6+9. Still nasty against a fifth level wizard, but simply outclassed by a 20th level party. For a 10th level wizard, the fly disappears too. I hope you weren't airborne at the time. Or Dominate Monster with a minimum DC of 23 turns you upon your summoner and party. Dismissal. There are many ways to own you in one round. Even the white dragon has a good chance of landing Charm Monster on you.

Edit: Added dropping fly.


Andreas0815 wrote:

This Eidolon is really weak.

I cast Dominate Monster, your turn.

Also, you have no Hp, no ac and not that much damage.

Compare e.G. to a two handed lance wielding Mounted spirited charging Fighter 20 you kinda loose.

+ if you have a intelligent foe (like a dragon) it will ignore the Eidolon and simply kill, planeshift or dominate the summoner.

That is hardly accurate as an unbuffed biped Eidolon has a +9 base will save, +4 from devotion against enchantment for a +13 against enchantments before any optimization occurs. If domination is a problem, the level 1 spell protection from x alignment counters it with minor effort. Also if the dragon comes gunning for the summoner, it isn't as if the summoner is without options. A readied Transposition is one. Just because an enemy is smart enough to aim for the summoner doesn't mean the summoner should be dumb enough to not have ways ready to keep himself alive.

Are you sure that spirited charge is still a strong option by level 20? Unless you fighter has pounce he is making 1 attack at x3. Not exactly a dpr monster. Also a mounted fighter comparison requires the fighter to have a viable mount for level 20(note the fighter doesn't have any class abilities that grant him mounts). A fighter could possibly get a mount using leadership but then the summoner could also get free back up minions to defend him using leadership. Leadership is accessible to anybody.

Devolution at level 20 has a bse dc of 13+ability score modifier. Unless they are heightening it with metamagic, this is not likely to go through. High level casters will go with other options.


How is this over-powered? The saves are terrible. Any lv9 mage with any self-respect can neutralize it with a single spell.

The lv12 fighter and universalist in the Kingmaker campaign I GM could likely tag-team one-round this thing. (needs a 17 to make the save against universalist's Hold Monster)

You won't cut through dragons above adult unless the GM hands you the encounter. A dragon knows magic. +30 to hit is pathetic on lv20. If I take a vanilla CR17 ancient green (happened to open the book on it) and even run with the uncharacteristically stupid spell and feat load-out, and NO magical items, you need a 14+ on the die from round 1 to even hit it (assuming mage armor and shield, the least of it's buffs, to be active), 19+ on the rest of your attacks. And should the first blow hit, it is likely eaten by a mirror image if the dragon has had ANY prep-time. In return, the dragon needs a 2 or 4 to hit, and chainsaws through your eidolon in two full-attacks.

If we assume lv20 gear customized for the eidolon and some buffs, then we can start talking.

Level 20 means absurdly powerful, it is the last level before you quit the game.

Taldor

Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.

Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.

This isn't an MMORPG where all people care about is top-level balance.


KilroySummoner wrote:

Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.

Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.

Well, as cute as this is, it won't work on most marginally optimized summoners since half-elves are immune to sleep. And late game a figher on his own vs a summoner/eidolon is gonna have major tactical issues. If he goes with archery, then a summoner can UMD windwall and basically remove that threat. If the fighter goes for flight, the eidolon and summoner both already have access to better(faster) flight. Even with their potentially superior dpr I have major doubts that a fighter can find a way to actually use it.


Not to mention the number of places your huge eidalon will not fit.


to the op I think your claw damage is wrong. half str damage from secondary attack and only getting -4 + 4 on PA.


thepuregamer wrote:
KilroySummoner wrote:

Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.

Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.

Well, as cute as this is, it won't work on most marginally optimized summoners since half-elves are immune to sleep. And late game a figher on his own vs a summoner/eidolon is gonna have major tactical issues. If he goes with archery, then a summoner can UMD windwall and basically remove that threat. If the fighter goes for flight, the eidolon and summoner both already have access to better(faster) flight. Even with their potentially superior dpr I have major doubts that a fighter can find a way to actually use it.

A lv20 fighter will have tons of items. If he has not put money towards being able to pursue anything and melee it anywhere, he has failed. Problem is that he is utterly and completely gimped into unplayability alone due to economy of actions. The only viable option for a fighter is full attack. And he cannot combine that with anything but a 5' step. Make it a mobile fighter who can full attack as a standard action on lv20, and he is still gimped, as all items that allows him to move or fly eats his standard action.

Solutions include cohort buff monkey, and/or intelligent items that do stuff FOR him.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mojorat wrote:
to the op I think your claw damage is wrong. half str damage from secondary attack and only getting -4 + 4 on PA.

Claws are primary attacks, not secondary. 2 for 1 on Power Attack with claws.


Kalderaan wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
to the op I think your claw damage is wrong. half str damage from secondary attack and only getting -4 + 4 on PA.
Claws are primary attacks, not secondary. 2 for 1 on Power Attack with claws.

When you use natural attacks with manufactured weapons, your natural attacks are automatically secondary.


Kamelguru wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
KilroySummoner wrote:

Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.

Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.

Well, as cute as this is, it won't work on most marginally optimized summoners since half-elves are immune to sleep. And late game a figher on his own vs a summoner/eidolon is gonna have major tactical issues. If he goes with archery, then a summoner can UMD windwall and basically remove that threat. If the fighter goes for flight, the eidolon and summoner both already have access to better(faster) flight. Even with their potentially superior dpr I have major doubts that a fighter can find a way to actually use it.

A lv20 fighter will have tons of items. If he has not put money towards being able to pursue anything and melee it anywhere, he has failed. Problem is that he is utterly and completely gimped into unplayability alone due to economy of actions. The only viable option for a fighter is full attack. And he cannot combine that with anything but a 5' step. Make it a mobile fighter who can full attack as a standard action on lv20, and he is still gimped, as all items that allows him to move or fly eats his standard action.

Solutions include cohort buff monkey, and/or intelligent items that do stuff FOR him.

Yeah, the fighter could have items and he could have leadership. But then the summoner could have leadership and items can only do so much. Between the eidolon's truly superior the reach, higher fly speed, and the fact that team summoner/eidolon has more actions to work with means a fighter is going to be severely outclassed in a 1 on 1 scenario because he will have trouble finding ways to even use his abilities. Also since eidolon's can get up to gargantuan, they could use combat maneuver's with a certain ammount of success against non-casters.


thepuregamer wrote:
Kamelguru wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
KilroySummoner wrote:

Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.

Nothing is even close to balanced at level 20. Post builds at level 1, 5 and 10. The relative power discrepancy is much larger on the lower end of the scale (Rogue vs others) than the upper end, where a Fighter is easily a match for a Summoner.

Well, as cute as this is, it won't work on most marginally optimized summoners since half-elves are immune to sleep. And late game a figher on his own vs a summoner/eidolon is gonna have major tactical issues. If he goes with archery, then a summoner can UMD windwall and basically remove that threat. If the fighter goes for flight, the eidolon and summoner both already have access to better(faster) flight. Even with their potentially superior dpr I have major doubts that a fighter can find a way to actually use it.

A lv20 fighter will have tons of items. If he has not put money towards being able to pursue anything and melee it anywhere, he has failed. Problem is that he is utterly and completely gimped into unplayability alone due to economy of actions. The only viable option for a fighter is full attack. And he cannot combine that with anything but a 5' step. Make it a mobile fighter who can full attack as a standard action on lv20, and he is still gimped, as all items that allows him to move or fly eats his standard action.

Solutions include cohort buff monkey, and/or intelligent items that do stuff FOR him.

Yeah, the fighter could have items and he could have leadership. But then the summoner could have leadership and items can only do so much. Between the eidolon's truly superior the reach, higher fly speed, and the fact that team summoner/eidolon has more actions to work with means a fighter is going to be severely outclassed in a 1 on 1 scenario because he will have trouble finding ways to even use his abilities. Also since eidolon's can get up to...

Don't ignore the fact that the eidolon can leadership as well. So summoner gets two cohorts (effectively)


erik542 wrote:


Don't ignore the fact that the eidolon can leadership as well. So summoner gets two cohorts (effectively)

I personally think there should be a forum rule that leadership doesn't exist as a normal option when discussing class balance because anybody can take it to cover their weak points. It is a mighty feat because it nets you a free npc 2 levels below you. But since anybody can take it, its net effect is 0 for balance comparisons.


thepuregamer wrote:
erik542 wrote:


Don't ignore the fact that the eidolon can leadership as well. So summoner gets two cohorts (effectively)
I personally think there should be a forum rule that leadership doesn't exist as a normal option when discussing class balance because anybody can take it to cover their weak points. It is a mighty feat because it nets you a free npc 2 levels below you. But since anybody can take it, its net effect is 0 for balance comparisons.

Yes but the summoner has an edge on this one because both them and the eidolon can have it. I can't think of anyone else who can take it twice.


not really that scary, that mentioned fighter on flying mount could ride by attack you all day while you fly up and get one attack on him, plus maybe one more for attack of opportunity, his damage and health will still far super cede yours


Shadow_of_death wrote:
not really that scary, that mentioned fighter on flying mount could ride by attack you all day while you fly up and get one attack on him, plus maybe one more for attack of opportunity, his damage and health will still far super cede yours

Give me an example of said flying mount he could have? Is it from leadership? Is it even close to being on level? if not it will be focus fired dead in about 1 turn and the fighter will have no way to get to his target.

I am sorry if this post is hostile. I have a headache and just realized that there is a negative tone in it. I want to communicate something like above without sounding like a jerk.

note: how do dimensional anchor and dismissal interact? dismissal is a form of forced planar travel so I would think the anchor would prevent it. Not that this would come up all that often. Just wondering...


err, so what about the actual SUMMONER... yes a high level caster can dismiss the eidolon. Ok, summoner whips him out again next turn. YAY!

Oh wait, the summoner can use twin eidolon to make himself a copy of the eidolon. Oh hey and his worn items continue to function! So +6 to all physical stats listed above from a single belt, + bunches to AC and resists, etc etc. Oh and he can whip out summon monster 9 or gate as a SLA a bunch of times a day. Oh right and he's still got a full casting list. Did I mention that we're not even talking about having the eidolon buffed in any way?

How many of you guys have actually played this at 20th level? It's not a question of how many dragons he can shred per round, it's how much he can contribute to a party with other people his level. And it certainly seems to blow away pretty much anything most classes can do at that level with any sort of consistency...


thepuregamer wrote:


Give me an example of said flying mount he could have? Is it from leadership? Is it even close to being on level? if not it will be focus fired dead in about 1 turn and the fighter will have no way to get to his target.

I am sorry if this post is hostile. I have a headache and just realized that there is a negative tone in it. I want to communicate something like above without sounding like a jerk.

I use the 10,000 gold bronze griffin (if i need it to attack) for ride by attacks the ebony fly (same price, longer duration, can't attack) may work better.

Neither suggest they can be killed (sundered maybe) and work long enough for my adventuring week

Edit: @vip00 there is a level 20 cavalier build on here somewhere that can one shot a tarreseque, (some 400 damage on the charge) so summoner had better be hiding and buffing, not fighting. Everyone at level 20 seems amazing, it is not a good comparison point


Yar.

A fighter with a flying mount can happen a number of ways. Leadership is one. Raising a creature from birth and using the Handle Animal Skill is another (it takes time, but the rules are there for rearing and training unusual animals). There are also a number of wondrous items and armor that can allow a fighter to fly (either himself or by summoning a mount), and he can even make those items himself without much difficulty (humans can add 1/2 their level to one craft/profession skill, + master craftsman + craft magic arm+armor or craft wondrous items + skill focus + actually putting osme ranks into the said skill = huge modifiers). yeah, it takes feats, but a fighter is a class with lots of feats.

A better combatant would be a Cavalier riding a Roc (as the Roc will be advanced as an animal companion, combined with the cavaliers charge, challenge, ride-by and fly-by).

~P


Shadow_of_death wrote:

I use the 10,000 gold bronze griffin (if i need it to attack) for ride by attacks the ebony fly (same price, longer duration, can't attack) may work better.

Neither suggest they can be killed (sundered maybe) and work long enough for my adventuring week

Edit: @vip00 there is a level 20 cavalier build on here somewhere that can one shot a tarreseque, (some 400 damage on the charge) so summoner had better be hiding and buffing, not fighting. Everyone at level 20 seems amazing, it is not a good comparison point

General description of figurine of wondrous power:

"If a figurine of wondrous power is broken or destroyed in its statuette form, it is forever ruined. All magic is lost, its power departed. If slain in animal form, the figurine simply reverts to a statuette that can be used again at a later time."

As far as I'm concerned that clearly states that it can be "slain in animal form".

Ok, how many people have actually PLAYED these and gotten these abilities to work in play. I would like to hear opinions from people who have played these 20th level characters. Comparing 2 builds on paper means nothing.


Yar.

vip00 wrote:

How many of you guys have actually played this at 20th level? It's not a question of how many dragons he can shred per round, it's how much he can contribute to a party with other people his level. And it certainly seems to blow away pretty much anything most classes can do at that level with any sort of consistency...

I have. Yeah, the last group only adventured to level 18, but I've done some one-shot runs at level 20, and have a lot of experience running and playing adventures that go above and beyond that, even with the relatively young pathfinder rules. I usually ignore threads like this because the theorycraft vs actual gameplay vs player experience vs roleplay vs rollplay vs poster emotions vs optimized builds vs unoptimized builds often gets out of hand and impossible to discuss fully due to random possible 'what-ifs' that get added from this side or that with the presumption that it negates all other arguments. (this is a gross generalization and is not always as extreme as I just painted it).

Anyways, my RL game is about to begin, so I'm off. Final Thoughts: Whether something is OP or Broken, in pathfinder, in my experience, has more to do with playstyle and the individual groups and the currently running campaign rather than the actual material being used. In group 1 class X is broken/OP, in group 2 class X is pitiful and weak-sauce, and in yet group 3 that same class X is perfectly balanced with everything else going on. This is simply my personal experiences in the matter.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help at this moment.

~P


Shadow_of_death wrote:


I use the 10,000 gold bronze griffin (if i need it to attack) for ride by attacks the ebony fly (same price, longer duration, can't attack) may work better.

Neither suggest they can be killed (sundered maybe) and work long enough for my adventuring week

Edit: @vip00 there is a level 20 cavalier build on here somewhere that can one shot a tarreseque, (some 400 damage on the charge) so summoner had better be hiding and buffing, not fighting. Everyone at level 20 seems amazing, it is not a good comparison point

They function like the actual creatures and the spell mentions that they can be slain.

Griffons have 42hp with 17 ac and an 80ft(+6 to fly) speed.
Pegasus has 34 hp with 14 ac and a 120ft(+5 to fly) speed.

So either 1 would likely die after 1 round at level 20. You can also get a nightmare through those figurines but it is only marginally better than the other 2. I am not sure there are any non-class ability ways to get flying mounts useful at level 20. A cavalier could get a flying mount, so could a ranger or druid.

I would like to see that cavalier build. I like cavaliers.


Pirate wrote:

Yar.

vip00 wrote:

How many of you guys have actually played this at 20th level? It's not a question of how many dragons he can shred per round, it's how much he can contribute to a party with other people his level. And it certainly seems to blow away pretty much anything most classes can do at that level with any sort of consistency...

I have. Yeah, the last group only adventured to level 18, but I've done some one-shot runs at level 20, and have a lot of experience running and playing adventures that go above and beyond that, even with the relatively young pathfinder rules. I usually ignore threads like this because the theorycraft vs actual gameplay vs player experience vs roleplay vs rollplay vs poster emotions vs optimized builds vs unoptimized builds often gets out of hand and impossible to discuss fully due to random possible 'what-ifs' that get added from this side or that with the presumption that it negates all other arguments. (this is a gross generalization and is not always as extreme as I just painted it).

Anyways, my RL game is about to begin, so I'm off. Final Thoughts: Whether something is OP or Broken, in pathfinder, in my experience, has more to do with playstyle and the individual groups and the currently running campaign rather than the actual material being used. In group 1 class X is broken/OP, in group 2 class X is pitiful and weak-sauce, and in yet group 3 that same class X is perfectly balanced with everything else going on. This is simply my personal experiences in the matter.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help at this moment.

~P

Interesting! Granted you had a psion in your group so I'm sure the summoner was a far cry from being the most broken thing on the table.

However I have trouble seeing how pretty much any other core class would stand on even ground with the summoner. Yes you can build characters that are SPECIFICALLY good vs the summoner, but I am talking general campaign ability as I've stated before.

It would have been interesting to see your sessions.

In the end, you are right... power imbalances are frequently due more to players and how they build and play their characters than the classes themselves.


thepuregamer wrote:


They function like the actual creatures and the spell mentions that they can be slain.
Griffons have 42hp with 17 ac and an 80ft(+6 to fly) speed.
Pegasus has 34 hp with 14 ac and a 120ft(+5 to fly) speed.

So either 1 would likely die after 1 round at level 20. You can also get a nightmare through those figurines but it is only marginally better than the other 2. I am not sure there are any non-class ability ways to get flying mounts useful at level 20. A cavalier could get a flying mount, so could a ranger or druid.

I would like to see that cavalier build. I like cavaliers.

Thanks for that, I had not noticed. never used them this high of level to be honest, I wonder if they can be enchanted...

Still, point is, theorizing at level 20 just isnt a good place to call something OP

the cavalier build is in a thread about one shot damage, im having issues with search so I can't link ya


thepuregamer wrote:

hey function like the actual creatures and the spell mentions that they can be slain.

Griffons have 42hp with 17 ac and an 80ft(+6 to fly) speed.
Pegasus has 34 hp with 14 ac and a 120ft(+5 to fly) speed.

So either 1 would likely die after 1 round at level 20. You can also get a nightmare through those figurines but it is only marginally better than the other 2. I am not sure there are any non-class ability ways to get flying mounts useful at level 20. A cavalier could get a flying mount, so could a ranger or druid.

I would like to see that cavalier build. I like cavaliers.

That thread can be found here.

It's a cheesy 600 dmg when you crit with a lance on a charge.

For comparison, the eidolon above does 271dmg a round if it hits with all of its attacks without any crits. That eidolon is not optimized, for for an optimized one, it should be closer to 350. The summoner in twin eidolon form should add about another 400 since he has the same abilities, but adds active magic item bonuses. Total 1-round damage is about 750. *shrug*


what it comes down to when optimizing is who wins initiative, hardly matters after the first round


Shadow_of_death wrote:
what it comes down to when optimizing is who wins initiative, hardly matters after the first round

Everyone always says that, but I haven't found that to be the case in a real campaign other than certain corner cases. Care to give examples?

Shadow Lodge

Theory-craft post is theory! That is all!


vip00 wrote:
Shadow_of_death wrote:
what it comes down to when optimizing is who wins initiative, hardly matters after the first round
Everyone always says that, but I haven't found that to be the case in a real campaign other than certain corner cases. Care to give examples?

This edilion vs. that cavalier, edilion wins initiative and wipes the floor with him in a full attack, cavalier wins initiative and charges killing summoner in charge attack.

First guy wins both times


Matthias_DM wrote:

I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.

You decide...

Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)

Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses Darkvision

AC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9

Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])

Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)

Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.

With those low saves and the low initiative I hope he got his butt kicked.


@vip00: I have played and hosted several high/epic level campaigns, and they all come down to initiative and are resolved in less than 3 rounds. Especially true for the brutes, who will likely be out of commission by the first failed save.

Vs Casters: In most cases, it doesn't matter if you win against a caster unless you are positioned to get off a full-attack. If they get to ACT, you likely lose. Even if you give this thing a cloak +5 and belt/headband of +6 to all stats to make it's saves at least relevant, he will still fail on a 10 against lv9 spells (Will17/Ref16 vs DC of at LEAST 28, if you don't know _anything_ about making a caster).

Vs Martial: Fighter, paladin or ranger gets a full-attack with 5-6 arrows, and by THIS point, if they don't do at least 200 damage, they should go hang their heads in shame.

Vs Rogues/Monks: OK, the eidolon beats the rogue and the monk. But everyone does, so big deal.

@wraithstrike: Without items and buffs, not even a question.


Matthias_DM wrote:

Ahem.... Low Saves... gotcha.

You guys should all go read the Summoner... it's long... I know.

Ok... You somehow get rid of my Eidolon. I can re-Summon Him. Better Yet, I can become him... with my own awesome saves, gear, feats, current buffs. After I become him... I summon him as a full round action.

If you take control of my Eidolon, I dismiss him. Better yet, I cast Protection from Whatever on him. Or I simply Greater dispell your spell.

All of these mean you and your pet monster are out of the fight while all of this occurs.

Round 1: Summoned thing charge! Summoned thing misses many times because 20+ bad guys have AC! Does some manner of damage, much of which is eaten by DR. (for example the pit fiend, which is rocking 40 AC with one spell, sitting on DR 15, and regen 5).

bad guy dominates/holds/etc. the critter. (using the pit fiend example we'd go with mass hold monster)

Round 2: Angry cursing from you (and possible damage from your pet). You dismiss/dispell/etc.

bad guy launches nasty attack spell that cripples you or ends the fight. (meteor swarm + quickened fireball is pretty ok for straight blasting if we stick with my pit fiend example)

Round 3: maimed summon charge!

bad guy points out how this will end poorly.

Your strength with the summoner isn't your ability to take stuff with that eidolon, it's your ability to have two possible focuses for nasty attacks which will let the rest of the party avoid said attacks and deal with the problem.


Dimension Lock - Wiz/Sor8 wrote:
Don't mind me, I'm just here to make sure you can't summon anything, blink or teleport.

Oh yeah, good point. I usually see you cast on just about any dungeon worth mentioning on higher levels, so the players can't just teleport in and ignore all the challenges.

Man, you shut down a summoner completely don't you? Can't summon anything, so if the eidolon goes down, you have to physically go outside and get it again. Brutal.


Two changes you can make to make this build somewhat more threatening (the second one is pretty trivial, too):

1) Quadruped instead of biped. You give up 5' of reach, but gain the ability to take pounce. Once you can full attack on a charge, their ability to run away is significantly curtailed. Also gives you a free bite attack.

2) Swap claws for pincers (since they're secondary attacks anyway) and take the improved damage evolution for them for one point. As per the conclusions I drew in the thread over here, that would bump your natural attacks up to 3d8 damage with the INA feat.


Kamelguru wrote:
Dimension Lock - Wiz/Sor8 wrote:
Don't mind me, I'm just here to make sure you can't summon anything, blink or teleport.

Oh yeah, good point. I usually see you cast on just about any dungeon worth mentioning on higher levels, so the players can't just teleport in and ignore all the challenges.

Man, you shut down a summoner completely don't you? Can't summon anything, so if the eidolon goes down, you have to physically go outside and get it again. Brutal.

lol perhaps you should read that spell. it is a 20ft radius emanation. All you did was 1 of 4 things:

1. summoner hasn't even stepped into it because it is so small and isn't hindered in his summoning.
2. Summoner is barely into it and can just 5 ft step out.
3. you forced him to use a move action to get out and use his summoning abilities. Oh no!
4. Any high level party that is encountering 8th level spells is going to find dimensional lock with a detect magic spell and dispel/greater dispell that s@~!.

Dimensional lock is really only good against people teleporting in. Not much else and still it only covers a 20ft radius. Are you going to expend 15 to 20 8th level spells to protect your lair?

If so the summoner just paid off for the party already as he has forced you to blow a s~*%load of high level resources that while they last for 1 day/level, don't cover much of anything. If a spell lasts 20 days and you have to use 20 of them to feel safe, you are still wasting a lvl 8 spell a day.

Hardly brutal...

Also, I agree with Bobson, this is not a strong eidolon build in this thread. For 1 thing, this eidolon is using 9 fewer evolution points than it should. Its equipment could be better. It could have some hour/lvl buffs on it. I am not saying a summoner can beat a caster, but a summoner can easily beat a fighter, barbarian, monk, rogue, and any other build that doesn't have access to good forms of flying.

But as a counterpoint against my own opinion. This is hardly relevant in a party setting because the aforementioned classes will have help allowing them to utilize their highly efficient and specialized dpr.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
KilroySummoner wrote:

Wanna know how a level 1 witch can 1-shot a level 20 Eidolon? Succeed with a sleep spell on the summoner.

The key word on that statement is "succeed" It's not going to be easy to catch a Summoner with a Sleep spell.

Shadow Lodge

thepuregamer wrote:
lol perhaps you should read that spell. it is a 20ft radius emanation.

lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."


Well, if it is a duel and not "Who benefits a party vs monsters more" then i would definitive go wizard.

Either a diviner (who doesn´t like to always have a ini of 30+dex+feats+traits) or a conjurer with his pet (either a Astral Deva or a Nalfeshnee). If i go with the conjurer my pet would hunt the summoner while i finish the Eidolon.

As a diviner i assume i go first. As conjurer it´s a matter of "who rolls higher wins" (as is level 20 most of the time).
Lets start the fight with a timestop, followed by a Prismatic Sphere, and then i gate in either an Pit Fiend or an Star Archon helper (which one depends on my alignment). After that i ready an action to cast Mage's Disjunction if the eidolon comes into range and follow it up with an dominate monster spell. As his Eidolon is not killed the summoner can not summon a new one and the hunt may begin...


Dragonborn3 wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
lol perhaps you should read that spell. it is a 20ft radius emanation.
lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."

perhaps house rules and dm fiat shouldn't be used in a class power/ balance comparison because it is irrelevant.


On second thought, strike the dominate monster and make it an quickened Magic Jar instead. Time to kill the summoner with his own Eidolon...


Dragonborn3 wrote:
lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."

Your DM must hate you. I personally have never encountered anything like this or placed it in my games. You must have a reliable description of a place to teleport there even with greater teleport, and most BBEGs don't tend to post those on every available bulletin board...

Shadow Lodge

As far as I know, there is such a dungeon in Rise of the Runelords. It sucked when I couldn't get my t-rex in the fight(but then I turned into one and got a t-rex in the fight anyway).


thepuregamer wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
lol perhaps you should read that spell. it is a 20ft radius emanation.
lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."

perhaps house rules and dm fiat shouldn't be used in a class power/ balance comparison because it is irrelevant.

The game is based on DM fiat. While I agree that we can't assume that you're in a dimensional locked area, the setup of the combat is often based on DM fiat, with only some influence by the players. So you can never remove DM fiat completely when talking about class powers and balance.

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