Why in the nine hells would a lv20 caster BOTHER with hurting stuff? That's thug-work. The caster makes sure that the enemy LOSES, while the big dumb <insert martial class here> goes to smack it until it stops twitching.
A summoner wasting all his feats and half his stats to do combat at lv20 will not have spell focus nor optimal primary caster stat, so his debuff DCs will be laughable.
And the argument that "Epic level will happen someday": I pray to the gods above and below that it DOESN'T, because epic play is tedious, innately broken, boring and takes a ridiculous time to prepare. Think the rocket tag effect is bad at high levels? Every epic level campaign I have played has boiled down to "Win initiative -> win battle". With bosses that were cheesed out their end-zones, this turned into "Win initiative -> mostly win -> see half party die -> stomp on remains of boss -> Revive everyone with chain revivify/breath of life"
So if you are among the masochists who enjoy lv20+ play; sure, the summoner > the martial classes/the casters who do it wrong.
And he can't pick up a weapon and attack with the one's he's already picked up in the same round.
Why not? Spend a move action to pick up a weapon, spend a standard action to attack with it. What's the problem here? I know not of any rule that would prevent you from doing this.
And he can't pick up a weapon and attack with the one's he's already picked up in the same round.Why not? Spend a move action to pick up a weapon, spend a standard action to attack with it. What's the problem here? I know not of any rule that would prevent you from doing this.
Hmmm, ok, change that to : same round without provoking an attack of opportunity.. And he's still limited to one attack per round until he picks up his weapons. Making him pretty useless in the fight since his weapons are all +1.
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This guy is just scary! ;) No falchions will last for long against his mighty sundering capabilities!
Please tell me if I've made any mistakes.
Abililty Increase(Evolution x4, 16 points): +8 Str
Ability Increase(Level Adjustments 5, 10, 15): +2 Str, +1 Cha
Ability Increase(Huge 10 points): +16 Str, +8 Con, +5 Natural Armor, -4 Dex, -2 AC
Ability Increase(20 levels of Eidolon): +8 Str/Dex, +16 Armor Bonus(Natural)
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 Str, Dex, and Con
Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 Str
Total Strength: 60 =16+8+2+16+8+6+4
Free Evolutions: Legs, Arms, Claws
Bought Evolutions: Ability Increase x4(Strength, 16 points), Large(4 points), Huge(6 points), Skilled(Intimidate, 1 point), Climb(1 point), Swim(1 Point), Gills(1 point), Improved Natural Armor(+2, 1 point)
[Skills
Swim:+43=25(Str)+15(Ranks)+3(Class) extra +8 to avoid hazards/perform special action, may take 10
Climb:+51=25(Str)+15(Ranks)+3(Class)+8(Climb Speed)
Perception: +18 =0(Wis)+15(Ranks)+3(Class)
Intimidate:+58=1(Cha)+15(Ranks)+3(Class)+25(Str)+6(Skill Focus)+8(Skilled)
Feats
Lv1: Skill Focus(Intimidate)
Lv3: Intimidating Prowess
Lv6: Weapon Focus(Claws)
Lv9: Dazzling Display(Claws)
Lv11: Shatter Defenses
Lv14: Power Attack(-4/+8)
Lv17: Improved Sunder
Lv19: Greater Sunder
Belt of Physical Perfection +6(144,000gp), Amulet of Mighty Fists/Natural Armor +5(203,000 gp), Bracers of Armor +8(64,000 gp), +5 Buckler(25,165gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +4(110,000gp)
Total Gold Spent: gold
Total Gold Left for the Half-Elven Summoner: gold
Fortitude: +17 =9(Base)+8(Con)
Reflex: +11 =5(Base)+6(Dex)
Will: +9 =9(Base)+0(Wis)
BAB: +15 CMB: +42(15+25+2) +48(15+25+2+1+5) with claws CMD: 58
Sunder CMB: +46 +52 with claws Sunder CMD: 62
Str 60(+25)
Dex 22(+6)
Con 27(+8)
Int 7(-2)
Wis 10(+0)
Cha 12(+1)
2 Claws(1d8+25+5)+44
2 Claws Power Attack(1d8+25+5+8)+40
Armor Class: 56 =10(Base)+6(+5 Buckler)+6(Dex)+28(Natural Armor)+8(Bracers of Armor +8)-2(Size)
Flat-Footed: 50 Touch: 14
This guy is just scary! ;) No falchions will last for long against his mighty sundering capabilities!
Please tell me if I've made any mistakes.
** spoiler omitted **...
Too bad he can't sunder anything with a +1 or better magical enhancement modifier. EDIT: Nevermind. Missed the amulet.
3. Lets assume the 14 weapon things is legit. Now you have to buy 14 weapons, with appropriate enhancement, as at 20th most everything has damage reduction of some kind, so you need at least a +1 enhancement to do much of any damage, and frankly with only 3/4 bab that +1 to hit isn't much at all.So how much damage is a single attack doing at what base attack, overcoming what damage reduction with how much spent on each weapon. If I have DR/10 (very reasonable at 20th level) what do I care if you have 14 attacks that don't do any damage, even if they hit?
Worse than that. Your glass cannon 14 attack monster with 14 +1 swords loses all his swords when he get's banished or goes poof because you got shunted to another dimension for one round. Upon returning, he has lost a bunch of his power output, and provokes AoO to pick them back up and re-equip. And he can't pick up a weapon and attack with the one's he's already picked up in the same round. Sounds like shredder time to me.
Or you're spending all your evo points on attacks and limbs, but there's a limit to those hard-wired in, so the glass cannon becomes a glass scatter gun.
1) Um... Why do those weapons drop? They are HIS weapons. Does a Balor drop his Weapons when he goes back to his home plane? Does a Merylith?
For that matter, do I drop my weapons and gear when I travel to a plane and get yanked back?
2) There is a limit to natural attacks I can make per round.
"This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."
Again, this might be bad wording (maybe they meant iterative attacks on a mainhand and offhand weapon don't count)... but that is sorta part of the point of this thread. As it is... the Summoner is broken. It says what it says!
..........stuff you said.........
Hey Raving... give me a CR 20 AC to hit really quick.
This isn't a duel. Dueling is not the way to show how overpowered a class is. It's based on who outshines who vs your avg monster at your CR. It's about stepping on the toes of other classes, making them obsolete.
No offense, but dueling doesn't help much.
..........stuff you said.........Hey Raving... give me a CR 20 AC to hit really quick.
AC 40 seems to be the standard (use that with the assumption that there are other defensive abilities, like fast healing and DR) for a CR 20, though I think it should be more like 50.
Why do you ask?
This is why I asked, Ravingdork.
Summoner full attack against AC 40:
+33/+28/+23 (3d6+37=47.5)and 14 attacks at +33 (3d6+21=31.5) criting on 17-20x3
Free Action removing Power attack. Swift Action activate Arcan Strike.
47.5*.7 +95*.2*.9 = 50.4
47.5*.45 +95*.2*.65 = 33.7
47.5*.15 +95*.2*.35 = 13.8
14 attacks 31.5*.7 +63*.2*.9 = 33.4 each
Total Damage Against creature: 565.5
Total Damage against creature with DR 10 (aligned, which I cannot bypass without better weapons or Aligning my weapons with a buff, which I can do): 395.5
Eidolon's full attack against AC 40:
+ 29/+24/+19 (3d6+26[17-20/x3]=36.5), 8 +2 Defending Kukri +29 (2d6+12[15-20]=19)
Removing power attack.
36.5*.5 +73*.2*.7 = 25.5
36.5*.25 +73*.2*.45 = 15.7
36.5*.05 +73*.2*.2 = 4.7
8 attacks at 19*.5 + 19*.3*.7 = 13.7 each
Total Eidolon Damgae against creature: 155.5
Total Eidolon Damage against creature with DR 10 (aligned): 50.8
This is TOTALLY UNBUFFED! Buffs would SKY ROCKET this damage :-). It's not even inlcuding that I would have flankers or my target might be flat footed.
1) Um... Why do those weapons drop? They are HIS weapons. Does a Balor drop his Weapons when he goes back to his home plane? Does a Merylith?For that matter, do I drop my weapons and gear when I travel to a plane and get yanked back?
You're missing 2 important differences. The Eidelon was summoned, sans weapons, and he returns to his plane, sans weapons. PF did not change the way summoning works. A summoned creature does not pick up something, return to it's plane with it, and then return again next time with it.
In both your examples, you've missed that point.
The Balor and Merylith have their weapons on their home realm. When they return, their equipment returns with them. But not things they've picked up. That's why creatures from other planes actually GATE in when they need to pick up things in this world.
When you go to another world, you are gating to it, not being summoned to it via a summon spell. If you DO get brought over via a summon, you are a summon creature. Which means you don't actually die there, you revive on your home plane, with the equipment you brought with you. Just like the creatures you summon do.
The Eidelon is not gated in, it's summoned in. The only way to get the weapons/equipment to stay with the Eidelon are to either gate to it's home realm and give it to them there, or gate it to the real world and give it the weapons/equipment and then send it home.
2) There is a limit to natural attacks I can make per round."This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."
Again, this might be bad wording (maybe they meant iterative attacks on a mainhand and offhand weapon don't count)... but that is sorta part of the point of this thread. As it is... the Summoner is broken. It says what it says!
Again, you missed my point. If you're going for the 14 +1 sword cannon, you're spending your evo points on arms. Which means you have 14 unarmed attacks at best when you lose those weapons. Each of which provokes AoO when you use it, unless the eidelon has Imp Unarmed Attack. Which means he doesn't, since you would not waste an unarmed attack feat on a slashy sword build.
And, unarmed attacks are not weapon attacks, which means you couldn't make 14 unarmed attacks anyway. They would fall under the 'natural attack' limitation, unless you had the improved unarmed attack feat which lets you treat the unarmed attack as an armed attack (which is a big loophole in the 'attacks per round' limit).
I never argued that weapon + natural attacks wasn't potentially broken, but it's no more broken than Druid + Animal Companion. Honestly, I don't even allow the base class in my games. The thing about it that was broke in playtest was the raw number of attacks. They sort of fixed it, but not completely. Unfortunately, to 'balance' it, they made a mockery of a life long companion you summon and it stands by you by making it go poof if you fall asleep. BLech!
I rewrote the class for my own games. Attacks per round is just how coordinated the artificial body the summoner creates is in my version, doesn't matter what attacks you make. If you can only make 5, then you can make 5 weapon attacks, 1 weapon and 4 claws, whatever. If you want 12 different attack methods, you can do that, but only make 5 per round.
A very simple way to limit the glass cannon aspect, and keeps it balanced up to 20th level (same # of attacks as a ITWF character). Then dumped the stupid 'go poof if you nod off'.
EDIT : Clarified a bit.
I would be happy to believe in your "Summoned creature don't take what the are holding back to their plane of origin" rule.... if you could point to that rule somewhere?
Let's assume you are right (even though I just read the rules on it and found it nowhere), with Plane Shift, I can go visit my Eidolon on his homeplane and make his weapons there... or I can gate myself there.
Point being, Eidolon will always have his weapons with him.
The summon issue was answered in the 3.5 FAQ, if I remember correctly. However, if you want to say anything not specifically spelled out in PF was not inherited from 3.5, then go for it. It means summoned creatures can pick up dead/unconscious PCs or PC equipment and take them back with them when the summon expires.
Unarmed attacks are not weapon attacks. If they were, they wouldn't be called Unarmed attacks. They are treated as weapon attacks if you have improved unarmed, but it's still an unarmed attack. The problem, to my way of seeing it, is that Unarmed Attacks are this quasi-semi type of attack that's neither manufactured weapon attack nor natural attack. They should be either or, but instead they're somewhere in the middle and have all sorts of exception rules to them. If you rule them as weapon attacks for the eidelon, that's fine, as long as you don't let the evolution that adds element to their natural attacks to affect the unarmed attacks then.
As to plane shift, please note I did specify you'd have to go visit and drop off the weapons, but that's not an option at lower levels.
I would be happy to believe in your "Summoned creature don't take what the are holding back to their plane of origin" rule.... if you could point to that rule somewhere?
Let's assume you are right (even though I just read the rules on it and found it nowhere), with Plane Shift, I can go visit my Eidolon on his homeplane and make his weapons there... or I can gate myself there.
Point being, Eidolon will always have his weapons with him.
Summoned creatures don't take things back with them. This is a commonly known thing, and is not new at all. I can't find the rule either, but posters from all over the world did not just spontaneously make a rule up though.
The gating there thing might work. It has been argued that the Eidolon is not an actual creature with an actual form until it is summoned though.In any event I have played level 20 enough times that I do agree that it is normally broken, and the CR chart flies out of the window in an actual game before you even get to 20, which is why nobody cares that an unbuffed CR 20 monster has an AC of about 40 because they found that using monsters without buffing them leads to easy fights.
That is why I said that what is broken is relative to what a group can handle or is used too. Some people don't like ToB(Bons)or psionics, but it has never given me any trouble. Your summoner might give some DM's issue, but I have a fighter in my game with an AC of 59, and we are using 3.5 books. Your tag team would fit right in.
Short story:Broken is relative not absolute in most cases.
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or I can gate myself there.
This would require knowing which plane the eidolon comes from.
Personally, since the eidolon goes away when the summoner is unconscious, I just consider it a creature that comes straight from the summoner's mind/soul.
And if you know which plane it comes from, there is the chance the enemy will find out and send whatever they need to to kill it on it's home plane. Like other outsiders, if it dies on it's home plane, it's gone for good(wish or miracle might bring it back though).
or I can gate myself there.This would require knowing which plane the eidolon comes from.
Personally, since the eidolon goes away when the summoner is unconscious, I just consider it a creature that comes straight from the summoner's mind/soul.
And if you know which plane it comes from, there is the chance the enemy will find out and send whatever they need to to kill it on it's home plane. Like other outsiders, if it dies on it's home plane, it's gone for good(wish or miracle might bring it back though).
I'd sure gate to a big bad's summon's home dimension if I thought it would be easier than fighting him and his 100's of minions and take out his biggest ally. I'd soul-gem trap it though, make him come to me on my ground with my minions and my traps and my defenses in depth.
Someone do the calculations versus a CR19 Red Dragon...
Give the red dragon some of its buffs, say greater invis, shield and stone skin?
[spoiler-Red Dragon]Ancient Red Dragon CR 19
XP 204,800
CE Gargantuan dragon (fire)
Init +3; Senses dragon senses, smoke vision; Perception +33
Aura fire, frightful presence (300 ft., DC 27)
Defense
AC 38, touch 5, flat-footed 38 (–1 Dex, +33 natural, –4 size)
hp 362 (25d12+200)
Fort +22, Ref +13, Will +21
DR 15/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 30
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
Offense
Speed 40 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy)
Melee bite +35 (4d6+21/19–20), 2 claws +35 (2d8+14), 2 wings +33 (2d6+7), tail slap +33 (2d8+21)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 15 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (60-ft. cone, DC 30, 20d10 fire), crush, manipulate flames, melt stone, tail sweep
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 25th)
At will—detect magic, find the path, pyrotechnics (DC 17), suggestion (DC 18), wall of fire
Spells Known (CL 15th)
7th (4/day)—limited wish, spell turning
6th (6/day)—antimagic field, contingency, greater dispel magic
5th (7/day)—polymorph, telekinesis (DC 20), teleport, wall of force
4th (7/day)—fear (DC 19), fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, displacement, haste, tongues
2nd (7/day)—alter self, detect thoughts, misdirection, resist energy, see invisibility
1st (8/day)—alarm, grease (DC 16), magic missile, shield, true strike
0 (at will)—arcane mark, bleed, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
Statistics
Str 39, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Base Atk +25; CMB +43; CMD 52 (56 vs. trip)
Feats Cleave, Critical Focus, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Stunning Critical, Vital Strike
Skills Appraise +33, Bluff +33, Diplomacy +33, Fly +11, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (arcana) +33, Knowledge (history) +33, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +33, Stealth +15
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Orc
Few creatures are more cruel and fearsome than the mighty red dragon. King of the chromatics, this terrible beast brings ruin and death to the lands that fall under its shadow.[/spoiler]
Someone do the calculations versus a CR19 Red Dragon...
Give the red dragon some of its buffs, say greater invis, shield and stone skin?
[spoiler-Red Dragon]Ancient Red Dragon CR 19
XP 204,800
CE Gargantuan dragon (fire)
Init +3; Senses dragon senses, smoke vision; Perception +33
Aura fire, frightful presence (300 ft., DC 27)
Defense
AC 38, touch 5, flat-footed 38 (–1 Dex, +33 natural, –4 size)
hp 362 (25d12+200)
Fort +22, Ref +13, Will +21
DR 15/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 30
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
Offense
Speed 40 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy)
Melee bite +35 (4d6+21/19–20), 2 claws +35 (2d8+14), 2 wings +33 (2d6+7), tail slap +33 (2d8+21)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 15 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (60-ft. cone, DC 30, 20d10 fire), crush, manipulate flames, melt stone, tail sweep
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 25th)
At will—detect magic, find the path, pyrotechnics (DC 17), suggestion (DC 18), wall of fire
Spells Known (CL 15th)
7th (4/day)—limited wish, spell turning
6th (6/day)—antimagic field, contingency, greater dispel magic
5th (7/day)—polymorph, telekinesis (DC 20), teleport, wall of force
4th (7/day)—fear (DC 19), fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, displacement, haste, tongues
2nd (7/day)—alter self, detect thoughts, misdirection, resist energy, see invisibility
1st (8/day)—alarm, grease (DC 16), magic missile, shield, true strike
0 (at will)—arcane mark, bleed, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
Statistics
Str 39, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20
Base Atk +25; CMB +43; CMD 52 (56 vs. trip)
Feats Cleave, Critical Focus, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Stunning Critical, Vital Strike
Skills Appraise +33, Bluff +33, Diplomacy +33, Fly +11, Intimidate +33, Knowledge...
It should be "[spoiler=red dragon]". :)
I think the OP is trying to say that the Eidolon-Summoner combo owns combats in his games so they must be broken which means a duel won't mean much*. He would have to play in someone else's game and not hog the spotlight to be convinced.
*I do agree that duels don't really prove anything.
This is what you are referring to with it's equipment.
"What happens to a summoned monster’s equipment
when it dies or the spell ends? What if it’s not carrying the
equipment any more? What if it’s carrying something new?
When a summoned creature goes away, so does everything
it came with. If it’s holding or wearing something it didn’t
appear with, that item drops to the ground in the creature’s
space after it disappears."
So yes, you are correct.
Remember, this thread is about a level 20 summoner. So, I will have no problem having a weeker Eidolon with natural attacks before this... and then swapping it out, having some swords made on it's plane (which it can just tell me where it lives) and then... it will have them forever.
This is what you are referring to with it's equipment.
"What happens to a summoned monster’s equipment
when it dies or the spell ends? What if it’s not carrying the
equipment any more? What if it’s carrying something new?
When a summoned creature goes away, so does everything
it came with. If it’s holding or wearing something it didn’t
appear with, that item drops to the ground in the creature’s
space after it disappears."So yes, you are correct.
Remember, this thread is about a level 20 summoner. So, I will have no problem having a weeker Eidolon with natural attacks before this... and then swapping it out, having some swords made on it's plane (which it can just tell me where it lives) and then... it will have them forever.
Where did you find that at? I knew I had seen it, but I could not find it or the reference that is actually in a book somewhere.
3.5 Official FAQ
Lots of things have changed from 3.5 to PRPG...can't consider that Canon...ESPECIALLY since 3.5 didn;t have summoners/eidolons...If the summoned eidolon doesn't heal while dismissed, it's clearly different than a normal summoned creature.
And yeah I screwed up that spoiler tag...oops...didn't noticve it til it was too late.
3.5 Official FAQLots of things have changed from 3.5 to PRPG...can't consider that Canon...ESPECIALLY since 3.5 didn;t have summoners/eidolons...If the summoned eidolon doesn't heal while dismissed, it's clearly different than a normal summoned creature.
And yeah I screwed up that spoiler tag...oops...didn't noticve it til it was too late.
One of the few things that didn't change was how summons work. Which creatures are on a specific list chnaged a little, due to licensing and CR modifications, but the summoning is the same.
Short of Paizo actually putting someone on checking the FAQs, the 3.5 FAQs have to do. Considering nothing changed for this, and how completely and utterly BORKED the game would be if this wasn't the case in this instance...
And an Eidelon is a summoned creature, read it's description. It calls out exceptions where it's not treated as a normal summon, indicating existing rules for summons apply unless exceptioned.
The game wouldn't be too borked. Not too much balance issue. I think it would be somewhat funny for a summon to snatch up a person it was grappling with on its way back. I predict a hilarious plot arc if a bunch of summons snatch up players. But anyway, I was thinking more of possessions. Like a summon that picked up a sword would take it back with it. That sort of thing.
It would be completely and utterly borked.
1) Bad guy too powerful? Just summon something with a high CMB to grapple him and then dismiss the spell. Bad guy goes bye bye, loot treasure.
2) Item undestroyable and evil? No problem, summon a celestial, let them pick it up and take it to plane of good where evil cursed object is destroyed by merely being there.
3) Short of funds? No problem, summon monster with equipment, order monster to take it off (or grapple it and steal items), dismiss monster. Lather rinse repeat until you have enough things to sell for all the money you want.
4) All of the 3 above used by GM against PCs.
5) As to it being funny if a PC is pulled away, I'm sure the PC pulled back to the realm of of Demons and Devils wouldn't think it was so funny. Nor the one pulled back by an elemental, considering they'd die permadeath less than a minute after getting there.
1) this one isn't too likely to work. especially later on when all it takes is an 1 hour per lvl magic circle to keep them at bay. Also anytime I fought a remotely worth enemy boss, he wasn't easily grappled. If he was, he wasn't a terribly powerful enemy and this trick wasn't necessary.
2) dunno this one seems relatively easily solved by the GM. why would an angel want to take a indestructible evil item back with him to his holy plane? Sounds like it would taint his world. Perhaps a demon would be happy to take it off your hands but then who knows what he will use it for. But side note, I haven't read too much on planes setting fluff, so I am not sure if evil indestructible items melt on contact with a holy plane.
3) Dunno about this one, Summons don't have to do what you say. And if you make habit of this, you might get a reputation and then perhaps a DM gets to have a plot arc where you are hounded by all the outsiders you have mugged. I think that would also be a good plot hook.
4) I think all 3 could be interesting GM tools against a player. Plot arc 1) go save your buddy who got snatched to this realm. 2) some lazy outsider got rid of the evil artifact plaguing his world by discarding it in yours. And for a summon snagging player's item, that is not a big deal. A DM can already send enemies that sunder at his players. It is an option.
1. neutral characters are completely immune to magic circles, and the toughest bosses aren't always mega melee types, they are more often tough melee with added magic.
2. Angels are thrilled to be able to destroy evil at any time, (and yes evil artifacts are destroyed this way)
3. If a whole bunch of people were getting robed by some outsider summoning them in do you think some kingdom will send his army to hunt an entire plane to find what is probably a common thief? If you said yes then I'd like to play in your campaigns so I can take over these defenseless castles.
4. demon is summoned in grabs player and is dismissed into a lake of lava in hell, player dies, Rinse repeat. once your players meet a demon the DM has no reason not to use this tactic as demons would know its powerful
Just to add to Shadow of Death's excellent rebuttle.
For 1), the Eidelon is not affected by circles in the slightest and has a good CMB. He can have an EXCELLENT CMB if you give him nothing but tentacles (and he uses all of his full attack to grapple, eventually he'll succeed) to grapple with as natural attacks. That's a 'get rid of one BBEG per day' for free, regardless of any circles.
True neutral characters are immune to magic circles. 1 alignment out of all of them.
Not quite. True Neutral characters are immune to all circles. Non-Chaotic creatures are immune to Protection/Circle vs Chaos. Non-Evil creatures are immune to Protection/Circle vs Evil, and so on. A circle is only good against something of the alignment it's stopping. So, if you summon two different types of summons, one Chaotic and one Evil for example, then chances are one of them is going to be able to hit that mage and grab him back to some realm. Ergo, it's still the most effective option, especially since you can pop the summon in next to the enemy. If you summon 1d4 of them, you can surround it and get 4 chances to bamph him away.
For the angels thing, I avoid a ton of the plane specific stuff. If I as DM set up an indestructible evil artifact taking it to a holy plane won't destroy it. It will be more like a poison. Since I hardly ever use setting rules, I have not run into such issues.
Well, of course, if you houserule it, you can house rule anything you want. No issues with that. But up until now you've been arguing rules.
I like cause and effect and free reign games where players can do whatever they want but don't expect there to be no consequences. This is really no different than going into a thieves guild or store and robbing them. This is just a higher level scenario, the outsiders have met them. These adventurers are easily found using divination. Armies are hardly necessary for exacting retribution on a single party of adventurers. Don't understand the defenseless castle part.I can see how the lava attack is nasty. People snatching can be abused. Perhaps limit it to objects and not living creatures. I do not see limiting it to objects as breaking the world open.
Yep, objects work well. Summon creature next to mage, direct creature to disarm mage of his component pouch, dismiss summon. Summon creature next to fighter, disarm sword, dismiss summon.
I think with the right summon you could bamph 1d4+1 creatures per round and strip the equipment right off the enemies in a couple of rounds. Wizards without equipment pouches, backpacks (and spellbooks that were in backpacks), fighters with no weapons... Like I said, TOTALLY borks your campaign.
Hellö? Swöödish chöf wit the bröösth in the bork! Todöy we are making borked campain! We taking the bork and schticken the bork tö wörk! You taken the sömmøning and höppen ön the men, and then dössmöös yos sömmøning! Borken the campain-ain!
Like swedish chef's cooking, the whole premise of summoning and abducting people seems suspect at best.
Hellö? Swöödish chöf wit the bröösth in the bork! Todöy we are making borked campain! We taking the bork and schticken the bork tö wörk! You taken the sömmøning and höppen ön the men, and then dössmöös yos sömmøning! Borken the campain-ain!
Like swedish chef's cooking, the whole premise of summoning and abducting people seems suspect at best.
Not sure if you're trying to joke or insult, so I'll assume the former. I always did like the swedish chef on muppets. :)
The whole premise of summons being able to take anything back with them to the summoning point is extremely suspect at best. I was pointing out why it was so messed up.
1) I make the items on his home plane... I have the ability to go there with a few different spells. Yay... he has them forever.
2) What other issues did I not adress?
@Xaaon of Corvosa
See invis is a spell that will be up most of the time on my Eidolon and I lasting 3.5 hours a day.
My +4 Weapon goes through it's Stoneskin, it's a magic weapon so it goes through his DR 20/Magic as well. I would quicken lesser evolutionary surge on my Eidolon, giving it immunity to fire, then change myself into Twin Eidolon form, giving myself immunity to fire and all his stats etc. I then move foreward. Eidolon moves foreward and attacks.
Quicken Haste on Myself, Greater Dispel Magic the Dragon: It automatically loses Greater Invis, Shield (I wouldn't have stoneskin so that would be a roll 1d20+20 vs DC 26), 2 other effects that are on him either go away immediately or I have to roll the same).
SR doesn't apply to this. I then move foreward again, preping my full attack.
Turn 3, I demolish him... (btw, my Eidolon might have already killed him by now, after I debuffed him).
If you want. We can go round by round, but the dragon cannot do enough to kill me at this point. The summoner Adapts extremely well to every situation, making it too powerful.
Boom! No need to worry about fire.
Boom! All relevent buffs gone.
Boom! I'm a blender.
I don't even need a party.... and that's the way they are gonna feal at the game table.
@Xaaon of Corvosa
See invis is a spell that will be up most of the time on my Eidolon and I lasting 3.5 hours a day.
That's 2 castings of a 2nd level spell per cycle of casting. You can do that 3 times per day. That's 10.5 hours per day, or less than half the day. On top of that, you're obliterating your entire 2nd level spell resources.
My +4 Weapon goes through it's Stoneskin, it's a magic weapon so it goes through his DR 20/Magic as well. I would quicken lesser evolutionary surge on my Eidolon, giving it immunity to fire, then change myself into Twin Eidolon form, giving myself immunity to fire and all his stats etc. I then move foreward. Eidolon moves foreward and attacks.
This won't work. The Twin Eidelon ability copies the eidelon, not the Eidelon and the spell that's giving him extra evolutions. You'd get the Eidelon's base form. Since the surge spell's target is 'your edielon', you can't cast it on yourself after your in his form.
Second, there is no immunity to fire. There is resistence to fire (15 pts), which is what I assume you are talking about? That's not immunity to fire.
Quicken Haste on Myself, Greater Dispel Magic the Dragon: It automatically loses Greater Invis, Shield (I wouldn't have stoneskin so that would be a roll 1d20+20 vs DC 26), 2 other effects that are on him either go away immediately or I have to roll the same).
SR doesn't apply to this. I then move foreward again, preping my full attack.
I'm going to assume that automatic loss of spells is a house rule? I see nothing in the Greater Dispel Magic that would make it automatically lose any spells. Each spell has to be rolled for.
Turn 3, I demolish him... (btw, my Eidolon might have already killed him by now, after I debuffed him).If you want. We can go round by round, but the dragon cannot do enough to kill me at this point. The summoner Adapts extremely well to every situation, making it too powerful.
Boom! No need to worry about fire.
Boom! All relevent buffs gone.
Boom! I'm a blender.I don't even need a party.... and that's the way they are gonna feal at the game table.
I love how these battles always have the dragon sitting still for 2 rounds at a minimum, never casting or interfering as the summoner puts his pants on and buffs and debuffs.
What are the chances it casts a quickened summon creature next to the summoner on the first round, making it an AoO for each spell the summoner casts? What are the chances it then takes off straight up with a magic item that doubles it's speed and starts sniping the eidelon/summoner with range spells the next round? What are the chances it just spam summons from that point on, again quickened, every round? What if it casts 'anti-magic' on the summoner or eidelon? Or a quickened dispel magic of it's own as soon as the summoner buffs his eidelon? What if it has Leadership feat and has a pet summoner of it's own who's in hiding and starts spamming it's summon monster ability to interfere with the summoner? What if what if what if.
These little plans people keep posting to prove they can kill anything in 3 rounds never ever ever list what the enemy could do to disrupt their perfect attack plan. I'm not trying to belittle you, just am tired of all these 'This is Uber kill all' posts where the enemy is treated like a mob in World of Warcraft that just sits there waiting for you to attack before it does anything.
If you're hitting a dragon of that age, he has minions and spells and knows you're coming. He's going to have set up nasty traps around himself, you're going to be fighting on his ground, and he knows it better than you. Anything in his treasure hoard can be used by him in the fight, including golems, statues, whatever.
Your plan only works if the dragon is teleported into an arena and not allowed to act for 2 rounds. Sorry, not ranting just at you, but after a few hundred of these types of posts where the enemy is portrayed as an idiot who lets the PC do whatever he wants to get prepared, it's a bit tiring.
And the argument that "Epic level will happen someday": I pray to the gods above and below that it DOESN'T, because epic play is tedious, innately broken, boring and takes a ridiculous time to prepare. Think the rocket tag effect is bad at high levels? Every epic level campaign I have played has boiled down to "Win initiative -> win battle". With bosses that were cheesed out their end-zones, this turned into "Win initiative -> mostly win -> see half party die -> stomp on remains of boss -> Revive everyone with chain revivify/breath of life"
Shame you feel that way, but your opinion of it does not cause epic play to be inherently broken. Epic play can get tedious, sure - but so can low-level play. The most tedious game I played in ever, I was about 4th level.
A more accurate statement might be "epic combats with players who don't know the capabilities of their characters is tedious."
In any case, I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of us who don't feel like there's some universal law of RPGs that states that epic level play is terrible and nobody should do it; poke around the threads a bit and you'll see what I mean.
And the argument that "Epic level will happen someday": I pray to the gods above and below that it DOESN'T, because epic play is tedious, innately broken, boring and takes a ridiculous time to prepare. Think the rocket tag effect is bad at high levels? Every epic level campaign I have played has boiled down to "Win initiative -> win battle". With bosses that were cheesed out their end-zones, this turned into "Win initiative -> mostly win -> see half party die -> stomp on remains of boss -> Revive everyone with chain revivify/breath of life"Shame you feel that way, but your opinion of it does not cause epic play to be inherently broken. Epic play can get tedious, sure - but so can low-level play. The most tedious game I played in ever, I was about 4th level.
A more accurate statement might be "epic combats with players who don't know the capabilities of their characters is tedious."
In any case, I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of us who don't feel like there's some universal law of RPGs that states that epic level play is terrible and nobody should do it; poke around the threads a bit and you'll see what I mean.
The game can easily become higher rocket tag at higher levels unless there is an understood agreement to not play that way, but that to get all that power, and not use it kind of defeats the purpose, and it is not logical to extend a combat that you can end quickly. I think having more challenges that are not combat related would help in my group, and you do have a point it does depend on how you play the game. I do think that post level 20 play adds nothing to the game that can't be done at between level 17 and 20 unless you plan to take on deities and the equivalent of the Lords of the Nine.
I think that is what he was getting at.
And the argument that "Epic level will happen someday": I pray to the gods above and below that it DOESN'T, because epic play is tedious, innately broken, boring and takes a ridiculous time to prepare. Think the rocket tag effect is bad at high levels? Every epic level campaign I have played has boiled down to "Win initiative -> win battle". With bosses that were cheesed out their end-zones, this turned into "Win initiative -> mostly win -> see half party die -> stomp on remains of boss -> Revive everyone with chain revivify/breath of life"Shame you feel that way, but your opinion of it does not cause epic play to be inherently broken. Epic play can get tedious, sure - but so can low-level play. The most tedious game I played in ever, I was about 4th level.
A more accurate statement might be "epic combats with players who don't know the capabilities of their characters is tedious."
In any case, I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of us who don't feel like there's some universal law of RPGs that states that epic level play is terrible and nobody should do it; poke around the threads a bit and you'll see what I mean.
The game can easily become higher rocket tag at higher levels unless there is an understood agreement to not play that way, but that to get all that power, and not use it kind of defeats the purpose, and it is not logical to extend a combat that you can end quickly. I think having more challenges that are not combat related would help in my group, and you do have a point it does depend on how you play the game. I do think that post level 20 play adds nothing to the game that can't be done at between level 17 and 20 unless you plan to take on deities and the equivalent of the Lords of the Nine.
I think that is what he was getting at.
Indeed. And have anyone here MADE epic level encounters? I can make 2 levels worth of play for normal level campaign for the same effort I need to put into ONE ENCOUNTER that is supposed to challenge people (NOTHING taken right out of the bestiary challenges ANYONE even at lv19-20, much less epic levels).
And it IS flawed. If you don't do magic at lv15+ you have no place in the game anymore except as a janitor so the casters don't have to bother with physically killing stuff, and can keep on doing actual work. And that janitor work is if you have optimal gear, otherwise, you can't even do that. Remember the AC60 dragon I posted? That one would have a 60-70% chance to have died before it could act against ANY lv20+ party I have ever played with.
And as for taking on Lords of the Nine and similar? I think any given epic character I ever played in 3e could solo any given lord of the nine, even at lv21, in a straight up fight. The actual epic level play always boiled down to more of the same inane lv17-20 play, except the somewhat broken multiclass combos become full on insane, as people had the same amount of spells as the singleclass wizard, and fighting prowess the fighter/barbarian could only dream of. By lv25 we stopped rolling damage, since it took too long to roll and calculate 80-120 dice after a full-attack/quicken-twinned spell from the resident bladesinger. At least the cleric only rolled like 20 dice and added 700 or so when he came out of his time-stop.
And no-one were having FUN, except for laughing at the morbidity of it.
Where in the core rules of pathfinder are the rules for each plane? I personally don't use campaign settings so I likely haven't used them. Are there actual rules interactions for good planes and indestructible(how far are we taking this quality?) evil items.
If you're homebrewing, then do whatever you want. If you're using Golarian, then the positive energy plane destroys evil on contact. As with all PF, until Paizo releases something to replace it, you are supposed to fall back to 3.5, which would be the manual of the planes. Again, in a homebrew, do wahtever you want.
disarm only allows you to knock things out of the targets hands. The items then end up on the floor except if you do it unarmed. Unless your summons also have items meant for disarming on them and feats to help them, they are already at a large number of negatives(at an extra -4 doing it unarmed and provoking tons of AoOs). A better strategy would be for me to just make a disarm or sunder character and have them run away right after succeeding. Either way, unless the component pouch is in their hand at the time you want to disarm, this isn't happening. That is not a big deal.Summons snatching items is not a big deal. I as the DM could do this much better if I were to just make npc or monsters whose purpose was to disrupt items. Specialized sunder, disarm, and stealing characters can...
I actually meant Steal from the APG, but mistyped it as Disarm. However, as you point out, you can sunder the PCs equipment all the time as well. While I believe sunder is a valid tactic at times, if you're going to do it all the time, your game is going to explode. However, it's a valid tactic, and your ruling of summons take things back with them would open the door to such things happening. If you don't do it to the PCs, they will do it to the bad guys with impunity.
The biggest problem I see with it is that summons become much more powerful than the level of spell indicates. After all, you can give the summons the +1 and +2 items you find you don't need so that your summons are more powerful than their level indicates.
However, it's your game, bork it if you want to.
On the dragon's turn, he kills you.-James
PS: and this is a dragon with a poor selection of feats, spells and gear.
James,
This is a 'ZOMG Summoner Borked' thread. You're not supposed to have the cardboard enemy cut out actually be effective in any way.:)
On the dragon's turn, he kills you.-James
PS: and this is a dragon with a poor selection of feats, spells and gear.
James,
This is a 'ZOMG Summoner Borked' thread. You're not supposed to have the cardboard enemy cut out actually be effective in any way.:)
@James: The OP intends that you use the stock monster with no buffs, and he waits patiently in his chambers(lair, etc) as you come to kill him. The DM who is running this hypothetical fight never adjust for the power of the party either.
If this were a thread just to see if a summoner could take on a CR creature he may have a point, but since the point is to determine the brokiness(ignore the bad spelling) of a level 20 character you have to look at actual game play where DM's don't send CR encounters out naked, and since action economy is the name of the game he will more likely use 3 CR 17's or some other combination.
The whole disregard of RELATIVE power level seems to be the main issue. If players get to cherry pick items and have no restrictions on them on what they are able to get their hands on, then the monsters need to be elevated to the level.
If I get to cherry pick items and not have to worry about low level play with regards to feats and stats, I am pretty sure I could make a Lv20 ROGUE that could solo a CR19 dragon easy enough.
And if your player cheeses his eidolon, nothing is stopping you from going in as a GM and snip a piece of text in the # of attacks section, and have that be the total no matter what the source. You get to do 7 attacks on lv20, end of story. Might actually make for an INTERESTING eidolon instead of the same tedious copy-pasta miniature hekatonchires that optimization inevitably boils every eidolon down to, in order to make buckets of attacks that bogs down play.
Just so you know, saying a DM can rule your broken powers away because he might need to, is a bad way of saying a summoner is not broken. Just saying. This is especially true as others have said DM's toward later lvls have to do the opposite for non-casters to stay relevant. Hand them extra loot... Make it legendary or an artifact.
And if your player cheeses his eidolon, nothing is stopping you from going in as a GM and snip a piece of text in the # of attacks section, and have that be the total no matter what the source. You get to do 7 attacks on lv20, end of story. Might actually make for an INTERESTING eidolon instead of the same tedious copy-pasta miniature hekatonchires that optimization inevitably boils every eidolon down to, in order to make buckets of attacks that bogs down play.
When I say cheese, I don't mean the base ability. I mean being given full freedom to obtain anything, no matter how inane and implausible it would be to do so without dedicating no less than a full campaign year to craft crap, both physically and magically. (Where in the nine hells do you FIND a bunch of huge +3 falcatas? You'd need a giant's forge to even have the ability to make them.)
THIS is what I mean by cheese. Stuff that WON'T happen through gameplay, unless you metagame like the g++!$*n Batman on steroids and predict at lower levels that you and your pet eventually will grow to need EXACTLY 9 falcatas each at lv20, so you can leave a crafting order at the local storm-giant city for 18 huge masterwork falcatas.
And I am not saying that fighters NEED artifact weapons. I am saying that many campaigns REVOLVE around artifacts. Where they play a major role in the plot. And these are rarely huge falcatas.
And I never said that the summoner is not superior to the fighter. Any caster is superior to the fighter at higher levels. A single spell can win the encounter at any level. A fighter needs to hack blindly and hope there are not illusions, abjurations or other effects like decent AC, making him swing at air. A fighter's job is to kill what the caster disables.
If you can beat anything on your own without a certain synergy in terms of teamwork at levels 15+, then you are playing with a soft GM. The bestiary entries are bases. Slabs onto which you can construct a real challenge. We are currently fighting CR4 monsters with AC24 in serpent skull. None of us complain about that. We just deal with it.
My beef with the eidolon's infinite weapon attacks is that the beasts in question always are the same. Some oversized girallon with a birth defect. Every. Time. I made my last eidolon into a lovecraftian horror with tentacles and claws. Sure, not the most powerful beast, but at least he can scale without earning a well deserved WTF-look from the entire table when I start pushing for years of downtime to craft huge weapons to enchant.
No other class NEEDS to do this in order to optimize. Want to optimize your ranger? Get the best bow you can. Want to optimize your wizard? Buy and scribe some spells. Want to optimize a druid? Buy some stuff for your pet, which can't use weapons anyway (barring the obvious gorilla with swords). The summoner example that Matthias keeps using requires years of downtime, because no-one will sell you a bunch of oversized exotic weapons. Hard enough to find a NORMAL masterwork or magical falcata for sale. I have yet to see one posted in an AP, and the random item list will not give you one, as it doesn't exist in the core book. Every falcata found is a GM fiat.