Wow. Really didn't think this thread was going to vroom along. Many of us do not find the summoner broken in our campaigns. Perhaps, we cheat or houserule to the challenge level of our groups. I rarely use any critter straight from the page. In my games, summoners do not stand out beyond other classes. Maybe, I have poor summoner players and everyone else is optimized. Doubtful. But who knows.
All I can say, in my experience, summoners are not overpowered/broken. Obviously, for some it is. I ~was~ on the "OMG never in my game!" bandwagon when the class was first introduced. I have since switched teams after reading other threads and finally seeing play. Until, we can see some sort of POLL, I really do not know how the community as a whole feels. I would guess the majority do not have issue.
But, I am also one of the jaded ones that is starting to find higher level play less fun to run or play. That is why I am following the E6 threads so much lately.
So that is my 2cp, I'll read a few more posts..then wave byebye to the thread. It has entered the cycle thing. Those of us that have no issue vs those that do, and neither is switching camps. Hmmm, maybe I should rez a stealth/perception thread or all pally's are jerks thread. :P
As for xp, in RotRL, I just make sure they are at the suggested levels at the appropriate times. I toss out numbers accordingly :P. Shh, that is our secret. For other games, our group doesn't even really bother with XP. Just level when appropriate.
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3: Dismissal, Magic Circle and various other spells can one-shot or neutralize it.--yes it can be banished/dismissed, but few things have that at their disposal, which combined with easily obtainable SR and being easy to resummon it's a poor counter - magic circle doesn't do squat. Reread eidolon base description
If banished how is a summoner gonna get his eidolon back without either becoming a sitting duck for a minute or have it be totally shut down by a circle of protection spell?
from d20pfsrd
Summon Eidolon:
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.
OK, Arguments for not overpowered:
1: Twin eidolon is a lv20 ability. Who cares? 95% of the game does NOT take this into consideration.
-- just because it doesn't see play in most campaigns doesn't mean it's not a problem...
2: The eidolon's gear comes out of YOUR pocket, meaning you spread the WBL out over two characters.--valid point, but it does little to tone down the problem
3: Dismissal, Magic Circle and various other spells can one-shot or neutralize it.--yes it can be banished/dismissed, but few things have that at their disposal, which combined with easily obtainable SR and being easy to resummon it's a poor counter - magic circle doesn't do squat. Reread eidolon base description
4: Take out a bard-equivalent caster (lv1-19) and get rid of the eidolon as well.??? huh?
5: Limited use of eidolon.--How? Because it goes away when the summoner is asleep? I wouldn't consider that terribly limited. There isn't a time limitation otherwise
6: Doesn't really step on anyone's toes. He is an amalgam of the bard and the druid, without doing the social nor the nature stuff. He relieves the wizard's buffing duty instead of doing his stuff.--Well he pretty much replaces a bard for buffs and a fighter for tanking at the same time without breaking a sweat... I'd call that stepping on toes
Skipping my reply to your last post does not make then any less valid. It does not matter what numbers you throw on this message board. If it can be handled without disrupting [b[ your[/b] group's game then it is not broken.
Reply to reply:
1: At lv20, rogues can murder you with a single blow. Wizards play with existence. Paladins can one-shot anything that is not on it's home plane. Unt so weiter. Having a powerful ability on lv20 is gravy for the most part, because that is when you'll face down the CR25+ end-game bosses who will make your head spin.
2: How does it do little to tone it down? In my game, the ones with leadership suffer greatly from being under-equipped and can't possibly compare to the ones who get to keep all the stuff for themselves. Also; leadership gives you an actual lv18 fighter, with better bab and all that good stuff. An actual caster with an actual fighter is better than a summoner and his eidolon any day.
3: Enemy casters are more powerful most of the time, meaning whatever SR you can conjure is 35% reliable at best. As for the non magic-using encounters; whatever, they are jokes to begin with, as Paizo scaled combat encounters down so much even the least optimized characters can deal with a combat encounter.
4: Killing a summoner is REALLY easy. He does not have the best self-buffs, and can be plowed down even by martial characters. Also, two bad saves. Squishy.
5: Good luck bringing that huge creature into dungeons that rarely even accommodates large creatures. Same with bringing it alongside when you enter cities, meaning it would be fairly useless in half of Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Council of Thieves.
6: Wizard, sorcerer and more also buff circles around the bard. Bards also do social, debuffs, skills and more, as he is a jack of all trades. And replacing the fighter's most useless function is hardly stepping on toes. As for the fighter; Sure, in your games. Not in mine. My players do NOT lose to a pet. General Marcus Muri in my Kingmaker campain breaks AC40, and has close to 30 to hit while power-attacking at lv12. Because his player knows how to make a fighter. He could easily have soloed a Lv15 barbarian boss wielding an artifact if I used him as written in the AP.
So yes, the eidolon and summoner looks overpowered in THEORY. As a GM, I see over a dozen problems off the cuff. More if I care to think it through.
Reply to reply:
1: At lv20, rogues can murder you with a single blow. Wizards play with existence. Paladins can one-shot anything that is not on it's home plane. Unt so weiter. Having a powerful ability on lv20 is gravy for the most part, because that is when you'll face down the CR25+ end-game bosses who will make your head spin.2: How does it do little to tone it down? In my game, the ones with leadership suffer greatly from being under-equipped and can't possibly compare to the ones who get to keep all the stuff for themselves. Also; leadership gives you an actual lv18 fighter, with better bab and all that good stuff. An actual caster with an actual fighter is better than a summoner and his eidolon any day.
3: Enemy casters are more powerful most of the time, meaning whatever SR you can conjure is 35% reliable at best. As for the non magic-using encounters; whatever, they are jokes to begin with, as Paizo scaled combat encounters down so much even the least optimized characters can deal with a combat encounter.
4: Killing a summoner is REALLY easy. He does not have the best self-buffs, and can be plowed down even by martial characters. Also, two bad saves. Squishy.
5: Good luck bringing that huge creature into dungeons that rarely even accommodates large creatures. Same with bringing it alongside when you enter cities, meaning it would be fairly useless in half of Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Council of Thieves.
6: Wizard, sorcerer and more also buff circles around the bard. Bards also do social, debuffs, skills and more, as he is a jack of all trades. And replacing the fighter's most useless function is hardly stepping on toes. As for the fighter; Sure, in your games. Not in mine. My players do NOT lose to a pet. General Marcus Muri in my Kingmaker campain breaks AC40, and has close to 30 to hit while power-attacking at lv12. Because his player knows how to make a fighter. He could easily have soloed a Lv15 barbarian boss wielding an artifact if I used him as written in the AP.
So yes,...
+1. To go into a little detail though I had a druid with a large cat in CoT and most of the time even a large cat was hard pressed to fit into a room along with all the baddies + the party. Bigger is not always better.
I also have a super-fighter at my table. He has DR11'ish and a high AC. He can also hit an AC of over 50.Maze has no save, and I am sure that bad things happen when the summoner and the eidolon are too far apart. Ya know what, just maze both of them. Nothing says they are sent to the same place. Kill them off one at a time.
So a lot of what I'm seeing in most of the posts that argue that the summoner is not overpowered is that fighters aren't worthwhile playing and wizards auto-win at 20th level. I have yet to see this demonstrated in any ways, so I'm still waiting. The last person who tried told me they would be putting up a forcecage with AMF (which doesn't work) and another argued that they would use magic jar during the time stop to possess the eidolon, which also doesn't work.
Essentially what I've gathered is: it doesn't matter how powerful the summoner is, you can always DM fiat a counter for him. (OMG the bbeg's room lined with traps casting dismissal every 1d4 rounds! PWN SUMMONER!) That's great and all, but the fact that you have to do that proves the entire point of this thread in the first place!
Reply to reply:
1: At lv20, rogues can murder you with a single blow. Wizards play with existence. Paladins can one-shot anything that is not on it's home plane. Unt so weiter. Having a powerful ability on lv20 is gravy for the most part, because that is when you'll face down the CR25+ end-game bosses who will make your head spin.2: How does it do little to tone it down? In my game, the ones with leadership suffer greatly from being under-equipped and can't possibly compare to the ones who get to keep all the stuff for themselves. Also; leadership gives you an actual lv18 fighter, with better bab and all that good stuff. An actual caster with an actual fighter is better than a summoner and his eidolon any day.
3: Enemy casters are more powerful most of the time, meaning whatever SR you can conjure is 35% reliable at best. As for the non magic-using encounters; whatever, they are jokes to begin with, as Paizo scaled combat encounters down so much even the least optimized characters can deal with a combat encounter.
4: Killing a summoner is REALLY easy. He does not have the best self-buffs, and can be plowed down even by martial characters. Also, two bad saves. Squishy.
5: Good luck bringing that huge creature into dungeons that rarely even accommodates large creatures. Same with bringing it alongside when you enter cities, meaning it would be fairly useless in half of Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Council of Thieves.
6: Wizard, sorcerer and more also buff circles around the bard. Bards also do social, debuffs, skills and more, as he is a jack of all trades. And replacing the fighter's most useless function is hardly stepping on toes. As for the fighter; Sure, in your games. Not in mine. My players do NOT lose to a pet. General Marcus Muri in my Kingmaker campain breaks AC40, and has close to 30 to hit while power-attacking at lv12. Because his player knows how to make a fighter. He could easily have soloed a Lv15 barbarian boss wielding an artifact if I used him as written in the AP.
So yes,...
You have NOT shown me otherwise. Make your awesome Rogue... make your awesome fighter.
2) It does little to tone down the problem because I could purchase +4 swords (instead of +5) slightly lesser equipment and stay WELL beneath my starting wealth for level 20.
15 +4 swords = 480k
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 = 144k
Amulet of Natural Armor+3 =18k
Ring of Protection +5 =50k
Bracers of Armor +8 =64k
Eidolon Gear:
9 +2 swords = 72k
Hey, I only spent 828k of my 880k starting average wealth for my level.
3)Enemy spellcasters are not more powerful most of the time.... especially if they are demons or dragons... they are usually level 17 spellcasters except on a limited number for spells. Still, your number 35% is still AWESOME! 35% of spells wink out when they touch me.
4) How am I easy to kill?
305 HP, AC 55 (as I've upped my gear to the above)
165 HP, AC 43 (after barkskin... ty puregamer)
If you are referring to before I've changed I can give all damage I take that would bring me below 0 and syphon it to my Eidolon. The reverse is true as well, I can sacrifice life to prevent damage to the eidolon.
My saves are not bad at all, especially since I can give my creature and myself +8 to all saves with Protection from Spells.
5)I can leave it behind and dimension door it too rooms when they are large. So I can still have it with me in dungeons.
I can also Transmogrify it and change it's size.... or dismiss it and Summon Monster 9 as a Standard action 11/day.
Again, ON LEVEL 20.
Fine, I'll admit it; In a vacuum arena setting where the players get to make their characters AT LV 20, and not playing through a story, no GM intervention or story items/perks/teamwork, and so on... the average summoner is better than an average fighter.
If you ever play a campaign long enough to get there, enjoy the 3 sessions of being better than the fighter, the bard, the rogue, the barbarian, the monk and arguably the paladin.
Here is my ACTUAL paladin, which I play, who is focused on reliability in game, by having awesome saves, RP-relevant skills and versatility. How I expect him to look at lv20:
Toshirou "Hippotoshimus" Doujima Paladin19/Monk1 (Warrior of Holy Light / Zen Archer)
Str 30(24) +10
Dex 20(14) +5
Con 22(16) +6
Int 10 0
Wis 8 -1
Cha 32(26) +11
AC: 36/47 (+14 armor, shield +2, +5 NA, +3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 aura, +11 deflection when smiting) <- Not great, I know. Expecting to be hit anyway, as he is a two-handed type. Can juice it with 8 with defending and fighting defensively.
To hit: +37/+32/+27/22 or +48/+43/+38/+33 (Bab+19, Str+10, Weapon+5, Heirloom+1, WF+1, +1 aura, +11 if smite) or +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 or +40/+40/+35/+30/+25 (Bab+19, Dex+5, Weapon+5 [I have a cleric in party casting 1 GMW, +1 otherwise], Aura+1, +11 if smiting)
Damage: 1d10+36+several metric tons of misc depending on situation (Furious Focus, always Power Attacking, so added Power Attack)
Optimal, with 1 rd to bond weapon (holy, speed, flaming): +50/+45/+40/+35/+30, Dam: 1d10+57+2d6bane(dragon, evil outsider)+2d6holy+1d6fire (if I assume haste or blessing of fervor, I go for Brilliant Energy), ignores DR. Probably some other stuff I forget, it's late over here.
Someone proficient in DPR mechanics do the math for me.
Saves: Fort+35, Ref+29, Will+27
CMB+30/41 (BAB+19, Str+10, Perk+1, +11 if smiting) CMD: 46/57 (Base10, BAB+19, Str+10, Dex+5, Perk+1, Dodge+1, Deflection +11 if smiting)
Loot: Book +5 str, book +5 cha, book +3con, Belt of Perfection +6, Headband of Cha+6, Katana +5 (Dragon Bane, Evil Outsider Bane), Amulet +5, Mithril Fullplate +5 Heavy Fortification, Cloak +5, Bow+1 Seeking, Ring of Shielding, Ring of Evasion
------------------
At lv8 now, +15/+13/+13 in saves, base hit and damage +14/+7 (1d10+14, 17-20/x2) or +9/+9/+4 1d8+9 with bow (this changes dramatically after 1 round of buffs from myself, the cleric and the wizard), close to 100 hp, decent AC (23-35 depending), good skills in general.
Having something being broken at lv20 is not a problem to me, because 90% of all campaigns ends before you get there. All APs end at 18 at the highest, and few GMs even LIKE dealing with those levels, since it takes hours to design a single encounter. And IF you make it to lv20, there usually are enough odd stuff going on to even out the playing field. In my experience, not ONCE has a lv20 fighter been without a lesser (or even proper) artifact sword. Meaning he is the only one who can take on the red wyrm with the anti magic field.
Edit: Summoner is easily killed with a finger of death/ destruction/implosion or similar spells. Their saves are bad.
Seem to confuse "absolutely optimal circumstances" with "easily" there.
And again with the irrelevant 20th level. Over 95% of the games played is lv1-19.
Ask anyone who really knows the game if they even WANT spell resistance. It is more of a hassle than a boon unless you are going solo, or are in a party with no other casters.
You can be expected to be hit with such spells from lv10 onwards. Summoner CAN get Protection from Spells at lv16. In between 10 and 16, you will optimally & buffed be left with something like +16/+20 (+4 base, +5 con assuming optimized and +4 belt, cloak+3, heroism +2, GF +2, +4 optionally have eidolon next to you) if you optimize (S7,D10,C16,I7,W7,Ch20), push hard to increase saves, and have downtime to custom make items.
So, +20 at BEST. Finger of Death DC is at least 22 (10base +5Int/Cha +7lv) for the crappiest caster possible with basic elite array and no items. Hey, 90% chance of success! And all it took was a blood-optimized, completely mechanical, buffed summoned joined with it's eidolon at the hips like a Siamese twin.
But since we are talking best possible optimized circumstance here, any REAL caster will have a DC of 29 (Int+10, GSF+2, Lv+7) which you will have to roll twice due to his Greater Rod of Persistent Spells. Suddenly, you fail if either of your two rolls is less than 9, IF he has not smacked you with something to make you shaken, sickened or otherwise impair your saves. And likely, he has hit your eidolon with a quickened devolution to make it smaller and thus have it not remain next to you, since that would be optimal, regardless of how circumstantial that spell is. Actually, at this level, most casters have the luxury of facing you, leaving and coming back prepared, or just learn about you from your earlier deeds. So it is not all that contrived. So now we might assume losing on a 16, since all I have to do is assume 4 or 5 optimal counter-points.
As wraithstrike has been trying to point out time and again; optimizers have optimizing GMs. If you actively TRY to break the game with builds that harvest the best possible scenario, the GM should return the favor.
Oh yes, regarding the other classes with weak saves: Protecting yourself from the save or lose Will spells is easy enough with a potion of protection from evil or similar. Reflex is irrelevant, as blasting is slow and pointless in PF. Oracles have death ward and other great spells to protect themselves from Fort Save or Dies. Wizard, Sorcerer and Witch have great protection spells, and are full casters. They have means to never get targeted in the first place. Meaning Good Fort classes will get past the terminal save or fails, and rogues will die, as they are borderline unplayable, due to being ridiculously underpowered.
And once again: UNTIL lv20, just walking over and clobbering a summoner is relatively easy.
And how does this show that the eidolon isn't broken because it is better then a fighter in fighting? I thought that was the point of this thread. Not that a wizard is better then a summoner in a duell.
The reason this class is poorly designed is that the eidolon is a free meatshield with a lot of DPR and utility. If you could choose between a summoner and a fighter in your party, why would you take the fighter? Especially in a campaign that starts at level one, the eidolon is way superior to a fighter in many ways. This alone makes the class broken.
Again, ON LEVEL 20.
Fine, I'll admit it; In a vacuum arena setting where the players get to make their characters AT LV 20, and not playing through a story, no GM intervention or story items/perks/teamwork, and so on... the average summoner is better than an average fighter.
If you ever play a campaign long enough to get there, enjoy the 3 sessions of being better than the fighter, the bard, the rogue, the barbarian, the monk and arguably the paladin.
Here is my ACTUAL paladin, which I play, who is focused on reliability in game, by having awesome saves, RP-relevant skills and versatility. How I expect him to look at lv20:
Toshirou "Hippotoshimus" Doujima Paladin19/Monk1 (Warrior of Holy Light / Zen Archer)
Str 30(24) +10
Dex 20(14) +5
Con 22(16) +6
Int 10 0
Wis 8 -1
Cha 32(26) +11AC: 36/47 (+14 armor, shield +2, +5 NA, +3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 aura, +11 deflection when smiting) <- Not great, I know. Expecting to be hit anyway, as he is a two-handed type. Can juice it with 8 with defending and fighting defensively.
To hit: +37/+32/+27/22 or +48/+43/+38/+33 (Bab+19, Str+10, Weapon+5, Heirloom+1, WF+1, +1 aura, +11 if smite) or +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 or +40/+40/+35/+30/+25 (Bab+19, Dex+5, Weapon+5 [I have a cleric in party casting 1 GMW, +1 otherwise], Aura+1, +11 if smiting)
Damage: 1d10+36+several metric tons of misc depending on situation (Furious Focus, always Power Attacking, so added Power Attack)
Optimal, with 1 rd to bond weapon (holy, speed, flaming): +50/+45/+40/+35/+30, Dam: 1d10+57+2d6bane(dragon, evil outsider)+2d6holy+1d6fire (if I assume haste or blessing of fervor, I go for Brilliant Energy), ignores DR. Probably some other stuff I forget, it's late over here.
Someone proficient in DPR mechanics do the math for me.
Saves: Fort+35, Ref+29, Will+27
CMB+30/41 (BAB+19, Str+10, Perk+1, +11 if smiting) CMD: 46/57 (Base10, BAB+19, Str+10, Dex+5, Perk+1, Dodge+1, Deflection +11 if smiting)
Loot: Book +5 str, book +5 cha, book +3con, Belt of Perfection +6,...
Your attack bonuses (without giving you the cleric but granting you your +5 Weapon of Double Bane)
+19 BAB +10 Str +6 Weapon (saying that I will just give you it's bane bonus as if one of the banes counted)+1 Weapon Focus +1 Power of Faith +1 Haste +11 smiting -5 Power ATtack = +49/+44/+39/+34/+29
Not counting Traits (like heirloom, BC traits are Housruled whether to use or not) or outside buffs (because those would be able to be applied to my build as well... effecting it more positively than yours to be honest).
Damage = 1d10+ 15(2h Weapon str Bonus)+15 (Power Attack bonus for 2h weaps)+19 Smite +6 Weapon + 7 (2d6 Bane) + 7(2d6 Holy)+3.5 Fire(Flaming Burst+5.5 on crit) + Keen
=78
To hit an AC of 44:
78*.95+83.5*.2*.95 = 90
78*.95+83.5*.2*.95 = 90
78*.8+83.5*.2*.8 = 75.8
78*.55+83.5*.2*.55 = 52.1
78*.3+83.5*.2*.3 = 28.4
= 336.4 (If the enemy is an outsider you'd get +10 more on your first successful attack... because it's "successful" it won't get multiplied by the first .95... so... add 12 against evil outsiders)
You did 348.4 to an Evil Oustider with AC 44... wait?
I did 530 ish to Everything at an AC of 44. + 140 ish from my pet.
There are some things you can do to tweak your damage more... like choose a better weapon to increase your crit threat. It's probably not going to make up for the 340 Extra damage I just did to that same critter.
And how does this show that the eidolon isn't broken because it is better then a fighter in fighting? I thought that was the point of this thread. Not that a wizard is better then a summoner in a duell.
The reason this class is poorly designed is that the eidolon is a free meatshield with a lot of DPR and utility. If you could choose between a summoner and a fighter in your party, why would you take the fighter? Especially in a campaign that starts at level one, the eidolon is way superior to a fighter in many ways. This alone makes the class broken.
You and me apparently make different fighters. I made a lv5 summoner with eidolon last night in case our group needed another player in Carrion Hill. The eidolon was pretty good at dealing damage, but the fighter had the edge in all other fields. Comparing it to a 2h fighter.
Fighter 5:
AC 22 (+10 armor, +2 dex)
Saves: F+7, R+4, W+2 (+5 vs fear)
Greatsword +15 (2d6+18, 19-20/x2) or Bow +6 (1d8+10)
HP: 4d10+30, (max at lv1), average of 52
S22, D14, C14, I7, W10, Ch7
Loot: +1 Greatsword, +1 fullplate, belt+2, cloak +1, MW Str Adj Longbow
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Furious Focus, Toughness, Blind Fight, Weapon Spec, Deadly Aim
Traits: Heirloom Weapon, Jaded
Quadruped Eidolon at lv5:
AC: 19 (+6 NA, +3 Dex)
Saves: F+6, R+7, W+1
Bite +8(1d6+6), Gore +8(1d6+4), 2 Claws +8(1d6+4) No ranged
HP: 4d10+12 (not max at lv1), average of 34
S18, D16, C14, I7, W10, Ch11
Evolutions focused on allowing more good attacks, having AC, Strength and ability to pounce.
Loot: Gone to the summoner to ply his trade and survive.
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack
Fighter WILL hit, Eidolon MIGHT hit. Eidolon will eventually overtake fighter if optimized, given a good share of gear, and fully buffed. But in reality, few, if any, groups operate without someone to lay on the buffs, meaning the fighter gets the buffs he needs as well, and a glance should show which one gains more from f.ex haste.
But now look at the Ape pet of a druid 5:
AC: 18 (+5 NA, +3 Dex, -1 Size, +1 dodge)
Saves: F+6, R+7, W+2
Bite +9 (1d6+6), 2 claws (1d6+6) No ranged
HP: 5d8+15 (not max at 1st), avg 38
S23, D16, C14, I2, W12, Ch7
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Dodge
The baseline to look at here is druid. The caster with companion. Alone, the summoner makes the bard look like a hardcore action hero.
Summoner: Two crap saves, useless primary stat, no skills worth mentioning, poor casting, only knows buffs and some debuffs outside summons. Contributes next to nothing outside combat. Gets a great pet to compensate.
Druid: Two good saves, useful primary stat, lots of useful skills, best casting, versatile spells for most situations, can contribute in a lot of situations outside combat. Mediocre pet.
Fighter: Two crap saves, but fort is rolled several times more often than both the other two. No skills worth mentioning. No casting. Best at combat. Little to no contribution outside combat.
Matthias_DM: Yes, but my character can do more than just murder things. He is the party face, he can undo debuffs on himself easily without accidentally removing buffs, he also has vastly superior saves, and unlike you and your pet, he won't go running away when you eventually fail the omnipresent fear save. Boss fights at lv20 tend to have DCs that push (and even break) 40.
Not to mention things like Blasphemy, which targets HD. Your eidolon will remain at 15, and fall prey to worse effects which will affect it even if it makes the saves.
Your mook killing streak will far surpass mine. But when the REAL baddies with DR X/Epic, DCs close to/above 40 and so forth come out to play...
Sure, the fighter will suck here as well, but at least he has the "ignore 10 DR" fighter only feat, and can do some damage.
And again, for the 20th or so time, lv19 and lv20 is the levels where you do the last stand against impossible odds. Levels 1-18 is where the APs take place, most campaigns focus, and where your stuff really matters. I have run probably 30 campaigns in my lifetime across all editions of D&D and pathfinder. Two of them got to lv20.
So I don't care if they completely remove the lv20 ability of the summoner. Won't affect 99.9% of all summoners played.
Still, would you take a fighter or a summoner? Would you take the class who can buff AND do the fighters job, or the fighter. I won't argue with you about a Fighters effectiveness in combat, he sure is great at combat, no question. But there, you compare a fighter with loot. The eidolon, without any loot, can do his job while there is still the summoner himself.
I honestly don't know how good druid pets are, since our druid has gone the domain route and focused on casting. If a druid pet is even better, the same holds true: poor design. But then again to each their own, I would never accept a summoner in my group if there is a fighter as well.
Still, would you take a fighter or a summoner? Would you take the class who can buff AND do the fighters job, or the fighter. I won't argue with you about a Fighters effectiveness in combat, he sure is great at combat, no question. But there, you compare a fighter with loot. The eidolon, without any loot, can do his job while there is still the summoner himself.
I honestly don't know how good druid pets are, since our druid has gone the domain route and focused on casting. If a druid pet is even better, the same holds true: poor design. But then again to each their own, I would never accept a summoner in my group if there is a fighter as well.
Would I play a fighter or a summoner? Depends on what the group needs. If there is a few semi-combatants and few/no dedicated arcane spellcasters, I might give the summoner a go. If there is an arcane caster that will do haste and such, I think I would prefer the fighter. Our GM's play-style rarely, if ever, leaves room for multiple rounds of buffing or having absurd amounts of downtime to craft 20+ huge falcatas. And we often play social campaigns, where you can't bring a weird large/huge monster along into town.
I also compare the fighter with loot to an eidolon without loot because the eidolon is not entitled to loot. The summoner is a squishy, and I had to spend the starting money to give him a tolerable AC, saves and some DC on his debuffs.
Druid pets are a mixed bag. If you play a dedicated combat druid, you can shapechange and buff yourself and the pet to pretty insane levels. I would even go so far as to say that until high levels, a druid and his pet is better than a summoner and his eidolon, since the druid gets access to awesomely sweet stuff like Animal Growth, thorn body, barkskin and more. And it is far more likely that a druid is in the party with someone who can cast Mage Armor (all arcane casters except bard) than it is that the summoner is in party with someone who can cast Barkskin.
But no matter how you turn it, the fighter is a cut above. He is consistently 5 or more over both of them to hit, and can be powerful without REQUIRING downtime to craft, as he can use most weapons found, or can buy them more readily. I am willing to bet money that 99 out of 100 GMs will NOT sell you 15 huge falcatas+2 at the local magi-mart.
The premise of the super-eidolon presented is based on "We have had all the time in the world to craft weapons". An huge eidolon restricted to what it reliably and readily can count on, will have 7 less than amazing attacks, as indicated by the advancement table.
LOL... So Kamelguru did you not see where I need NO rounds to buff to do that damage? And seriously... again the hindrance to my class is that I cannot buy/craft 15 swords?
Summoner's are Charisma Casters, and mine will be about 26ish.
-This charisma allows excellent "party face" skills.
- So, Summoner's Outdamage Fighters (and now Paladin's, even vs their specialized enemies).
- Have incredible versatility: the ability to change their monster at a moments notice to adapt to many situations, spells, extra skills (Eidolon gets its own skills, extra rolls on failed attempts (Eidolon can try!).
-The ability to summon monster 9 11/day as a Standard Action.
- Great Saves (while close to Eidolon).
- AWESOME survivability (can interchange damage between Eidolon and self, spreading it out).
- d8s for hit dice and the ability to wear light armor while casting.
- Self Healing capabilities: Transmogrify Eidolon to give myself Fast Healing when I change... also I can heal my Eidolon with my spells.
- Group Healer Capabilities - Summon a Trumpet Archon and have it heal the entire group with its spells.
This is why the Summoner is unbalanced and overpowered.
I removed a post and a reply to it. Let's try not to call each other trolls just for disagreeing.
LOL... So Kamelguru did you not see where I need NO rounds to buff to do that damage? And seriously... again the hindrance to my class is that I cannot buy/craft 15 swords? <- You need close to a YEAR of campaign time to get them all enchanted, NOT counting the fact that you need to MAKE them, which can be done with a friendly wizard with fabricate and a lot of metal. How is that not a hindrance? You CAN'T do this in Serpent Skull, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Council of Thieves, Legacy of Fire... actually, I should go the other way and say that the only AP that allow that long downtime is Kingmaker.
Summoner's are Charisma Casters, and mine will be about 26ish.
-This charisma allows excellent "party face" skills. <- Wrong. You have 2 skill points per level, and need skills to function. You are not allowed to summon something you do not know about. Meaning you gotta pump knowledge skills. Need spellcraft as well.
- So, Summoner's Outdamage Fighters (and now Paladin's, even vs their specialized enemies). <- At lv 20. WHO CARES!? Prove that you can out-damage a fighter or paladin at lv1-18, and I will agree.
- Have incredible versatility: the ability to change their monster at a moments notice to adapt to many situations, spells, extra skills (Eidolon gets its own skills, extra rolls on failed attempts (Eidolon can try!). <- 1hour + 1000gp =/= moments notice
-The ability to summon monster 9 11/day as a Standard Action. <- Again, at lv17-20. Proper casters can gate in REAL monsters like solars and pit fiends.
- Great Saves (while close to Eidolon). <- You and I have different idea of what constitutes "Great". +4 on top of the mediocre base leaves you at what I consider "average".
- AWESOME survivability (can interchange damage between Eidolon and self, spreading it out). <- HP damage is only one of very many ways to fail at life in Pathfinder. 4 out of 5 deaths on high level is not from direct HP loss.
- d8s for hit dice and the ability to wear light armor while casting. <- Like all the other medium progression casters. It is to make up for not having the best spells.
- Self Healing capabilities: Transmogrify Eidolon to give myself Fast Healing when I change... also I can heal my Eidolon with my spells. <- Again 1hour+1000gp, healing 5d10+20 is insignificant in combat at lv20. UMD and scrolls of heal is more valid, but horribly expensive in the long run
- Group Healer Capabilities - Summon a Trumpet Archon and have it heal the entire group with its spells.<- If you dismiss the eidolon.This is why the Summoner is unbalanced and overpowered.
At lv20. I made a lv5 one, and I have no idea how I am supposed to survive without using the eidolon as a babysitter, since I have really few spells compared to real casters (both known and per day), low AC, low saves and low CMD.
So if your gripe is that it is overpowered and unbalanced at level 20 then yeah, sure. It is. The same way a true caster is overpowered at lv17+.
I can't find stats for the summoner in this thread, can someone point them out?
2nd page, towards bottom, Both summoner and Eidolon in spoilers.
What's the highest level that you've actually played a character up to from level 1?
Cause you don't really seem to get high level at all.
-James
Sorry Ross, but this guy keeps posting stuff like this.
-it has no substance.
-it's basically calling me ignorant over and over (inflammatory)
If I say, "Ross, how long have you been on the internet, because you obviously don't seem to get what a troll is at all."
Well... am I simply disagreeing? or have I become a troll lol.
Matthias if the DM uses stock monster everything is overpowered. I handled your other arguments several posts ago when comparing a CR 20 bestiary monster to an AP SR 20 monster, along with other things. You are not going to convince anyone. If you don't like it just house rule it for your game.
** spoiler omitted **
Sorry Ross, but this guy keeps posting stuff like this.
-it has no substance.
-it's basically calling me ignorant over and over (inflammatory)If I say, "Ross, how long have you been on the internet, because you obviously don't seem to get what a troll is at all."
Well... am I simply disagreeing? or have I become a troll lol.
Then flag it and move on.
Can't be bothered doctoring that huge chunk of nonsense, so here is the run-down:
Block 1&2: You have the optimal bonuses from each source. Lack of cloak is irrelevant when you assume omni-existing +10 buffs that override cloak. Also, considering the pathetic amount of spells known AND per day, that is a pretty big investment. Also, this is at lv20. Until 16, if you craft the summoner for the express purpose of winning this argument, as there are much better spells you will want at lv16, then you need to rely on a cloak of resistance like the rest of us.
Block 3: Your SR will make sure your party cleric cannot heal you half the time, meaning half those essential mass heal spells will be for naught. Those "imaginary people" I refer to is pretty much everyone who have ACTUALLY played high level. If you do not have a cleric in party, then sure, go SR. Gods know you will need every defense you can get if that is the case.
Block 4&5: If you go Con20 at lv1, and focus more on that, ignoring Cha, then yes, you will get amazing fort save. Enjoy not having enough spells to function in your primary job, and forsaking any hope to apply the debuffs that make up half his real power IMO. Every summoner I have built for a set level has ended up spending half their starting gold on wands and such to make up for their ridiculously low spellcasting potential. Even if I gave them 19-20 in cha at lv1, and give them headbands of Cha at the first opportunity.
Re: Rod of Persistent spells: Who cares? This fictional situation is at Lv20. In a REAL campaign, you have staffs of the magi, holy avengers, artifact swords and a Plotinator +10. Likely, the wizard has two already. Also, end-game. You should see the loot for some of the REAL antagonists I have concocted for my party. The advanced PC-wealth great wyrm with sorcerer levels has more money than god. CR doesn't matter anymore, since you aren't getting XP. If you had ever played lv20, you'd know this.
Block 6: Countering the argument that it is easy to kill a summoner with that it is easy to kill a martial character? Yeah, it is. Hiding away in the back works to a certain degree from levels 1-7, then stuff ignores your frontliners and can attack you anyway. Incorporeal, ranged attackers, fliers, massive reach monsters, and so forth CAN get to you. If you for the sake of argument went for hellcat stealth, then yes, you could hide and not participate in combat. You'd be safe from anything that does not have blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, scent or other superior means of detection that render stealth useless, if you always stay within normal or brighter light at all times. See where I am going with this?
Last block: Unless you spend money on gear, and cast spells to improve it (of which you have laughably few, compared to real casters), the eidolon will not have enough AC to compensate for it's low HP, and goes down very fast when encountering real opposition.
It is consistently at a 5-10 point disadvantage to hit, and will miss on average against anything that has AC to speak of. Especially if it uses power attack, which it pretty much has to in order to do any real damage. Not to mention that a fighter will be good at ranged combat as well, while an eidolon needs to spend resources to even use a ranged weapon.
Spamming summons is a pretty good tactic, as it might force an enemy to waste time on something that is not a PC, and is in my opinion an ability that in many cases is BETTER than having the eidolon up.
So yeah, summoner is GOOD, never contested that. But it is in no shape or form BETTER than say the druid. It is "easy" to exploit it, if you create your characters at high level, instead of actually playing and having to deal with the whole "I need to survive, be an asset to my party, and likely make do with what we find or can buy since the GM won't let me take a year off to make huge weapons en masse".
Now, I am gonna get my beer and watch superbowl.
2nd page, towards bottom, Both summoner and Eidolon in spoilers.
any chance I can get him in non-eidolon form?
I was a little confused as to how he would handle buffs from 3 different classes as well as shapechange...
I will also add that these buffs on me in Eidolon form and on my Eidolon will increase damage for us much more than it will for the fighter, because we have more attacks per round, and higher AB will make more of them count (allowing me to realisticly use power attack).
Also, it will not benefit the fighter as much because he already has a nice BAB.
Furthermore, I forgot to add that I could have my Eidolon read a manual of +5 Str giving me +5 str when I change into it as well.
pretty cool. I apologize if I am too nitpicky. Few things to clear up.
1. looking it over weapon training goes to +4 in regular fighter. Weapon master can get it up to +5. Not sure about that +6
2. The duration of rage is in rounds. So I guess at lvl 20 that would be 20 rounds. So it could be a surprise round buff or if your party makes a guess that the enemy is right around the corner. its only 1 more so not a big deal to question it.
3. giant form and elemental form are personal. How do we get it on the fighter?
4. the +7 magic implies a bane weapon. Easy for an archer to achieve because he just gets bane arrows. Is there a way to drop bane onto an already enchanted weapon by spell so as not to require we have multiple +6-10 weapons?
5. You are netting the +6 luck bonus through divine power right. Also a personal spell and with a short duration of rounds per lvl.So I guess one would use a staff or wand to get the range personal spells on the fighter. The fighter would have a umd bonus of some sort...
The fighter has 20 ranks in UMD. He uses a staff of shapechange that his cohort (or other party member) can recharge for him.
He has a contingency (also via staff and UMD) for divine power at CL20 (or 18 if you want to be cheaper) for when he needs it, and a quickened divine favor from a ring when a mere +3 will do.
The extra bits on weapon training are from an APG item that adds +2 to weapon training... dueling gloves or some such.
The rage is via spell cast from an intelligent item.
The extra +2 on magic is via the APG enhancement that adds to when you are raging, which you are. Bane is not included here.
There are other possible spells here- blessing of fervor is an untyped bonus and blood rage out of orcs of golarion is very sick.
I hadn't factored in weapon master or other variant fighters, as I figured it would be salt to taste. The 20th capstone for fighters is very nice (which weaponmaster also has), while the mobile fighter is very cool as...
Care to share your magical build? And as Matthias keeps pointing out, all of those tricks are applicable to the summoner (except he can cast most of it himself), most of them twofold...
Please, do show me how your fighter can do 1000 damage per round. Versus what AC he can do this damage...
and what buffs he has going on him to do this damage...
Because that would interest me very much!
(also, pay attention that I didn't use party buffs in my examples... if I do, then my damage will also skyrocket)
You DO get to keep things specific to your form, if the polymorph ability says you do. Specific rules trump general rules.
I get to keep my Aspects, which are clearly stated to be a class abilities, which remain when I change (as stated).
The same is true of Defending weapons... because the specific rule for Defending trumps the general rule of stacking bonuses.
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn.
As a free action, I transfer all of the bonus from weapon 1 to AC... it stacks with all other bonuses to AC.
As a free action, I transfer all of the bonus from Weapon 2 to AC... it stacks with all other bonuses to AC.
etc.