Best Spells To Use vs. Golems


Advice

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Im a big fan of single targeting damage spells, but when I make spellcasting characters, I try to optimize his spell selection to be able to deal with a wide variety of things. As of right now though, Im having trouble finding spells that would be useable vs. creatures with magic immunity (spells that allow spell resistance autofail). they dont have to be single target but I just dont have the time right now to go through my tons of books to find all of the spells that are useable, so I thought Id ask and see what other people have used in this case.

I wont be surprised if I dont like some of the spells that people put down, seeing as how I have a different method of playing spellcasters than the majority on the forums, but it works for me and to each their own. Thanks in advance.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Any good illusion spell and your golem problems are solved.


buffs. dont target the golem target the sweaty guy hitting it with a sword lol


For Direct damage: clerics Scorching Ray seems like a good one no save, no SR untyped energy damage.

Scarab Sages

Wall of Force is good to steer the golem toward something that has no SR such as Create Pit, Acid Pit or Spiked Pit.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Any good illusion spell and your golem problems are solved.

To elaborate, find out what your DM thinks "mindless" means and if a golem will stop attacking if your characters disappear.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Any good illusion spell and your golem problems are solved.
To elaborate, find out what your DM thinks "mindless" means and if a golem will stop attacking if your characters disappear.

I actually was thinking about casting one of the image spells to create an illusion of a sexy vixen golem of opposing sex to lure your antagonist into romantic encounter while the party sneaks past, but yeah, what TOZ says.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You realize that I now want to check Rule 34 on that subject, don't you?


Fnipernackle wrote:
As of right now though, Im having trouble finding spells that would be useable vs. creatures with magic immunity (spells that allow spell resistance autofail).

Don't try to out thug a thug.

Golems are mindless.. exploit that.

My favorite spell against them is obscuring mist. Out of sight, out of mind.

-James


but i do need some kind of damaging effect to use against them. is their anything at higher levels that can do anything to them?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fnipernackle wrote:
but i do need some kind of damaging effect to use against them. is their anything at higher levels that can do anything to them?

Well, the point of golem magic immunity was to render them immune to magical blasting, among other things. That's why their saves are so crap.

Of course, you can go cheesy and use some SC stuff like Orbs, but don't expect a lot of love from the DM if you ask him about SC spells (or in worse case, don't expect a lot of love if he allows it and you end up going Ray of Stupidity and Wraithstrike on him).


Fnipernackle wrote:
but i do need some kind of damaging effect to use against them. is their anything at higher levels that can do anything to them?

Blast the ceiling and make it fall over him.

@TOZ: by definition, it already exist. No exceptions.


Fnipernackle wrote:
but i do need some kind of damaging effect to use against them. is their anything at higher levels that can do anything to them?

Acid arrow metamagics up very nicely. If you have space to keep out of arm's reach to let them run their course.

It's a way to deal with the slow ones

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Kaiyanwang wrote:
@TOZ: by definition, it already exist. No exceptions.

Untrue, I've looked for something and not found it once.

But yes, this one exists.


Gorbacz wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
but i do need some kind of damaging effect to use against them. is their anything at higher levels that can do anything to them?

Well, the point of golem magic immunity was to render them immune to magical blasting, among other things. That's why their saves are so crap.

Of course, you can go cheesy and use some SC stuff like Orbs, but don't expect a lot of love from the DM if you ask him about SC spells (or in worse case, don't expect a lot of love if he allows it and you end up going Ray of Stupidity and Wraithstrike on him).

we are sticking strictly to PF material only. PF compatible are allowed, but its at the GMs discretion, but the two other GMs besides myself allow anything (so long as its PF compatible) since theyve been doing this WAY longer than i have, they will actually utilize those same things against us, and they have more experience in keeping the game from becoming a power hungry race.

also, i was looking more at the sorcerer spell list to be more specific. ive found that acid arrow works, and another spell called chaos bolt from 101 2nd Level Spells by Rite Publishing. the character im trying to get feedback for is a gnome sorcerer and ill be crafting my own bloodline for wild magic (unless Paizo does something for it first, and even then its gotta be really good with the wild magic template and random effects and such). but i was really shocked to see that those are 2nd level spells. 2d4 aint gonna do much to a golem with 150+ hp (and thats average, sometimes we give them max hp).


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
@TOZ: by definition, it already exist. No exceptions.

Untrue, I've looked for something and not found it once.

But yes, this one exists.

not familiar with @TOZ (basically idk wtf it means lol.)

thanks for all the help guys. more input is appreciated though ;) so please keep posting.


The whole key with golems as a caster is that you have to go at them indirectly by using battlefield control, buffs and the like. They are built precisely to withstand direct magical attack, so you have to go indirect. A few ideas:

Use wall spells to control their movement
Use pit spells to drop them in
Drop the ceiling on them
Buff your buddies into golem-smashing gods
Use various Spells from grease on up to impede their movement

You get the picture. If, as a caster, your only option is to blast (which is really suboptimal against many encounters, but I'm not going to go there in this thead), then golems will eat your lunch. Expand your toolbox, and the caster can still dominate the encounter, without doing a single point of direct damage.


Fnipernackle wrote:
but i was really shocked to see that those are 2nd level spells. 2d4 aint gonna do much to a golem with 150+ hp (and thats average, sometimes we give them max hp).

If you are talking high level, and for some reason you wish to destroy the golem (shame on you) then simply put dazing spell on an acid arrow.

The the golem isn't going to make it's will save, or at least not each round and then will be dazed for two rounds in which it will have to make 2 saves in a row to no longer be dazed.

You're a sorcerer so you can throw more than one (either using a lesser rod and say 3 level 2 slots, level 3 if you extend via feat, or with the dazing spell feat and level 5 slots, level 6 if also extended or using a normal rod of extend).

Meanwhile the rest of your party slowly cuts it up into pieces without fear.

But why waste a golem? It's mindless... USE it instead.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
but i was really shocked to see that those are 2nd level spells. 2d4 aint gonna do much to a golem with 150+ hp (and thats average, sometimes we give them max hp).

If you are talking high level, and for some reason you wish to destroy the golem (shame on you) then simply put dazing spell on an acid arrow.

The the golem isn't going to make it's will save, or at least not each round and then will be dazed for two rounds in which it will have to make 2 saves in a row to no longer be dazed.

You're a sorcerer so you can throw more than one (either using a lesser rod and say 3 level 2 slots, level 3 if you extend via feat, or with the dazing spell feat and level 5 slots, level 6 if also extended or using a normal rod of extend).

Meanwhile the rest of your party slowly cuts it up into pieces without fear.

But why waste a golem? It's mindless... USE it instead.

-James

Thanks for your input james.

The reason I ask is because of a story that's going to take place at higher levels and I gave the GM an idea for a creature (not a golem) that has spell immunity (basically, think of a Yuuzang Vhan, I hope that how u spell it, from star wars with the spellweavers spellweave ability). It makes sense for them when they are doing what they are doing, and I'm trying to find out what casters in that realm and within all the planes (even the celestial ones) would be able to do. But I'm also playing a caster for this game and I think I just f*%&$# myself. Lmao!


Fnipernackle wrote:


Thanks for your input james.

The reason I ask is because of a story that's going to take place at higher levels and I gave the GM an idea for a creature (not a golem) that has spell immunity (basically, think of a Yuuzang Vhan, I hope that how u spell it, from star wars with the spellweavers spellweave ability). It makes sense for them when they are doing what they are doing, and I'm trying to find out what casters in that realm and within all the planes (even the celestial ones) would be able to do. But I'm also playing a caster for this game and I think I just f*%&$# myself. Lmao!

You need not blast all the time. If you are drawing from Star Wars.. 'there are alternatives to fighting' even.

Summons and bound creatures will do even if you are in a solo campaign or a party without fighters to introduce to these strange casters.

-James


Not really spells, but a good counter would be:

Golembane scarab + Summon fighter.


1) Grease spell. There's no magic resistance, so they're not immune to there being a big slippery pile of grease on the floor.

2) Summon monster. These things are particularly handy

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/archon.html#archon-lantern

Yes.. the humble lantern archon. Why?

Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Fnipernackle wrote:


not familiar with @TOZ (basically idk wtf it means lol.)

Basically "Hey TriOmegaZero". For when you are talking to someone but don't want to quote anything from their post.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Yes.. the humble lantern archon. Why?

Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.

Yep, and it only takes half damage from the golems attacks if at all.


Fnipernackle wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
@TOZ: by definition, it already exist. No exceptions.

Untrue, I've looked for something and not found it once.

But yes, this one exists.

not familiar with @TOZ

"@" and then the name of the poster (TOZ = TriOmegaZero) means I'm addressing to that particular poster without previously quoting him.

In topic, another idea: a Cease and Desist order to the owner of the Golem (semi-serious).


thanks for informing me of the @ thing.

also, im not a new player. ive been playing for ten years +. I have been very successful with my sorcerers and actually have a very good way to building them. I dont blast things all the time, i actually take a balance of spells, combat and utility. just my favorite combat spells are single target (they work for me, and our players dont use too many tactics.....yet. my game they are starting to cause they are realizing that they need to or they will die.) if i throw a fireball in a room, ill prolly kill just as many of my team mates as the enemy (and this is on a surprise round, they dont like letting casters soften up targets on surprise rounds.) also, im like the only person in my group that actually does things in a round to gain the advantage OUTSIDE of my class abilities (for example moving my full speed to get better positioning on the battlefield, and when i do this it works, although the other players look at me funny.) im a former marine so i know theres more than just blasting targets. Options and versatility win battles. not being rude or anything, just giving a background of my gaming experience and my play style.

this game is far off and i am co-gming it as i came up with the campaign idea, but it is nice to know what the planes at large would have to say about their spell casting and how to utilize it against these creatures. as i dont have the time right now to sit down and scan through all my books at spells, i decided to bring it up here. besides, when i get to play this character, discovering all the spells is half the fun.

basically how im looking at things now, spellcasters during this event will just have to buff the martial characters and have a war of attrition, which they will still be losing. then basically itll be up to the players to suicide mission their asses into these creatures homeworld, which we will have no idea where they are from and neither will anyone else, and find a way from the inside out to take them down (similar to the whole end goal in Mass Effect 2).

thanks for all the help. please continue because this is very informing and i like to see other peoples viewpoints on this topic.

also, i will work with the GM of this to get the creatures made and then we will post them on this board to get your input. btw, these creatures wont be coming about until we are around 15th level.


james maissen wrote:

If you are talking high level, and for some reason you wish to destroy the golem (shame on you) then simply put dazing spell on an acid arrow.

The the golem isn't going to make it's will save, or at least not each round and then will be dazed for two rounds in which it will have to make 2 saves in a row to no longer be dazed.

That's a cute strategy and it works as the rules are written. . . but I think it goes against the intent of Dazing Spell and errata is needed. The daze aspect of Dazing Spell isn't listed as mind-affecting, but it should be. The APG uses daze in a couple of new contexts, but in general the daze mechanic has traditionally been mind-affecting.

Quote:
But why waste a golem? It's mindless... USE it instead.

Only the creator of a golem can *typically* command a golem. The exception is when a golem's creator commands the golem to follow the commands of someone else. Barring that, there's no way to command a golem. You can't fool the golem into thinking you're the creator because the golem and its creator are linked during the creation process.

One option is to dominate a golem creator to give a command to the golem to follow your orders and then kill the creator. That would work.


Fnipernackle wrote:

Im a big fan of single targeting damage spells, but when I make spellcasting characters, I try to optimize his spell selection to be able to deal with a wide variety of things. As of right now though, Im having trouble finding spells that would be useable vs. creatures with magic immunity (spells that allow spell resistance autofail). they dont have to be single target but I just dont have the time right now to go through my tons of books to find all of the spells that are useable, so I thought Id ask and see what other people have used in this case.

I wont be surprised if I dont like some of the spells that people put down, seeing as how I have a different method of playing spellcasters than the majority on the forums, but it works for me and to each their own. Thanks in advance.

All golems have horrible saves. Hit them with anything that is SR: No, and you win.


Gorbacz wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
but i do need some kind of damaging effect to use against them. is their anything at higher levels that can do anything to them?

Well, the point of golem magic immunity was to render them immune to magical blasting, among other things. That's why their saves are so crap.

Of course, you can go cheesy and use some SC stuff like Orbs, but don't expect a lot of love from the DM if you ask him about SC spells (or in worse case, don't expect a lot of love if he allows it and you end up going Ray of Stupidity and Wraithstrike on him).

Ray of Stupidity doesn't work. Wraithstrike isn't needed as they are easily hit.


meabolex wrote:
james maissen wrote:


But why waste a golem? It's mindless... USE it instead.
Only the creator of a golem can *typically* command a golem.

I'm not talking about commanding the golem.

The golem has whatever marching orders it was given. Say 'stop anyone but me that enters the room from passing through' or the like.

You kill the creator, the golem still has its marching orders.

You now have a wonderful guard that's very low maintenance...

If the order is more abusable you could even get the golem to chase you for awhile and replace him in a location of your choice...

Things that are mindless should not be fought mindlessly.

-James


BigNorseWolf wrote:

1) Grease spell. There's no magic resistance, so they're not immune to there being a big slippery pile of grease on the floor.

2) Summon monster. These things are particularly handy

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/archon.html#archon-lantern

Yes.. the humble lantern archon. Why?

Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.

+1 on the lantern archons. They're the go-to attrition summoning by my players' clerics and wizards. They can basically stand off at 30 feet or so (check out their perfect flight movement) and pepper the opposition to death while you avoid contact yourself. The fact that their attack is a ranged touch (i.e., it can actually hit high level monsters, especially if you've got buffs like prayer going) makes them very useful.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonsong wrote:
For Direct damage: clerics Scorching Ray seems like a good one no save, no SR untyped energy damage.

Scorching Ray is fire-typed... and IS subject to Spell Reistance.


LazarX wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
For Direct damage: clerics Scorching Ray seems like a good one no save, no SR untyped energy damage.
Scorching Ray is fire-typed... and IS subject to Spell Reistance.

You're right I meant searing light but as the OP wants a sorc/wiz a cleric only spell really doesnt work anyway


EWHM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

1) Grease spell. There's no magic resistance, so they're not immune to there being a big slippery pile of grease on the floor.

2) Summon monster. These things are particularly handy

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/archon.html#archon-lantern

Yes.. the humble lantern archon. Why?

Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.

+1 on the lantern archons. They're the go-to attrition summoning by my players' clerics and wizards. They can basically stand off at 30 feet or so (check out their perfect flight movement) and pepper the opposition to death while you avoid contact yourself. The fact that their attack is a ranged touch (i.e., it can actually hit high level monsters, especially if you've got buffs like prayer going) makes them very useful.

+2. Lantern Archons are surprisingly nasty against tanks with DR, especially if you can summon them in groups.


not really a fan of summoning creatures but i guess i could take at least one summon monster spell at upper levels. but there must be something at upper levels thats really good against them.

what are some tactics that people use against them? i can see telekinesis throwing big objects into them, but if you have a lack of big objects this could be a problem.

i now see why the jedi crapped themselves when the Yuuzhan Vang came around.


Fnipernackle wrote:

not really a fan of summoning creatures but i guess i could take at least one summon monster spell at upper levels. but there must be something at upper levels thats really good against them.

what are some tactics that people use against them? i can see telekinesis throwing big objects into them, but if you have a lack of big objects this could be a problem.

i now see why the jedi crapped themselves when the Yuuzhan Vang came around.

At upper levels no, not really. Well the crushing wave of earth thing in APG that is spell level 9 might not be subject to SR. I suppose you could wish for a direct damage effct that worked on golems.

Or choose spell-mastery for one of the lower level options with quicken, intensify, and maybe heighten as the prereq 3 meta-magics. As you wont be increasing spell levels or cast times you can get a ring of wizadry for the level spell that one is, and double up on your number of casts before sacrificing higher level slots. Get a staff with the spell in its list and apply the metas through the staff.

Otherwise: form of the dragon, giant-form, transformation, heroism, haste, summons, pit spells, seem to be the most useful options.


Not to change the subject, just seeing it from another angle....

Would a psion (a la Dreamscarred Press) be able to mop the floor with a golem? As long as the Magic-Psionics Transparency isn't too binding, with SR not equal to PR, and you have all kinds of powers to throw at the golem, from Entangling Ectoplasm to Energy Ray.


jhpace1 wrote:

Not to change the subject, just seeing it from another angle....

Would a psion (a la Dreamscarred Press) be able to mop the floor with a golem? As long as the Magic-Psionics Transparency isn't too binding, with SR not equal to PR, and you have all kinds of powers to throw at the golem, from Entangling Ectoplasm to Energy Ray.

sigh, just another reason i dont like psionics. no one can ever figure out if they want SR and PR to be the same or not.

Back to the arcane, would the Arcane Blast feat from the APG work against them? it doesn't say it allows SR.


jhpace1 wrote:

Not to change the subject, just seeing it from another angle....

Would a psion (a la Dreamscarred Press) be able to mop the floor with a golem? As long as the Magic-Psionics Transparency isn't too binding, with SR not equal to PR, and you have all kinds of powers to throw at the golem, from Entangling Ectoplasm to Energy Ray.

Psionics Unleashed assumes full transparency - SR equals PR and vice versa. So no, I don't think psionics should mop the floor with golems.


Grease and an illusion.....say good by to the golem.


amorangias wrote:
Psionics Unleashed assumes full transparency - SR equals PR and vice versa. So no, I don't think psionics should mop the floor with golems.

True enough. So the Psion(Kinetic) uses Control Object to animate some nearby rubble into his own mini-golem and grapples the bigger golem. The Psion(Shaper) uses Astral Construct and surrounds the golem in short-lived Small constucts. Others use Entangling Ectoplasm until the golem is one big tarred-and-feathered mess.


i was looking through some of my 3PP last night and found a feat that lets you make some kind of check to become the golems master (not really sure what product and what check) but you had to have a few feats to get it.

but also, when we put this ability on the monster i described earlier, its a whole different ballgame.


Dragonsong wrote:
For Direct damage: clerics Scorching Ray seems like a good one no save, no SR untyped energy damage.

Don't you mean searing light? Thought Scorching light was arcane only kind of spell unless the cleric has fire domain.


our favorite was always Transmute Rock to Mud on the floor and after the golem falls in, Transmute Mud to Rock. Then it is trapped and you can leave it there or destroy it at your leisure.


Just hit the silly thing with a disjunction and move on.


Disable Construct


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Hello four year old thread.

Gorbie wrote:
Just hit the silly thing with a disjunction and move on.

Um, disjunction does nothing to Golems. They are not spells, spell-like effects, or magic items.


Summon your alchemist buddy.


Acid Arrow. No saves, no resistance, long range and most damaging level 2 spell on a single target if your group can last 7 rounds. 2d4 plus addition 6 rounds is 14d4. More than Force Punch and almost as good as Vampiric Touch damage wise.


If you kill it, use Fabricate to collect/sort its components. They're quite valuable.

/cevah


Dragonsong wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
For Direct damage: clerics Scorching Ray seems like a good one no save, no SR untyped energy damage.
Scorching Ray is fire-typed... and IS subject to Spell Reistance.
You're right I meant searing light but as the OP wants a sorc/wiz a cleric only spell really doesnt work anyway

Actually, searing light ALSO allows spell resistance - and explicitly deals less damage to constructs anyway. That won't work against most golems either.

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