Damage Reduction question


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Succintly put, what kind of weapon would you need to use to overcome the solar's "epic and evil" damage reduction?

Based off the "Overcoming DR" section on p. 562 of the Core Rule Book, it looks like satisfying the "epic" portion of the DR would automatically bypass the "evil" portion.

But p. 299 of the Bestiary and p. 296 of the Bestiary II both provide

Quote:
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction (such as “magic and silver”), and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

So does this mean that one would need a +6, unholy or +4, good outsider bane, unholy weapon to bypass the solar's DR?

What about the balor's "cold iron and good", the pit fiend's "silver and good", and the vampire's "magic and silver" DR?

I'm inclined to rule that the "Overcoming DR" table will only allow you to bypass one of the two DR's (epic or evil, cold iron or good, etc), which appears to put the Bestiary language into context. I'd like some other peoples thoughts on the subject.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The important part of the DR is the "and" part. In short, if the DR is X "and" Y, you need to fulfill both requirements. For the solar, it must be a +6 unholy weapon.

For a vampire, you need a weapon that is at least a +1, and made out of silver (or with silver applied alchemically).

In contrast, if the DR has X "or" Y, then you only need to have a weapon of one of the types. For example, a Dretch has DR 5/cold iron or good. Having either a cold iron weapon or a holy weapon will suffice for bypassing the DR.


modus0 wrote:

The important part of the DR is the "and" part. In short, if the DR is X "and" Y, you need to fulfill both requirements. For the solar, it must be a +6 unholy weapon.

For a vampire, you need a weapon that is at least a +1, and made out of silver (or with silver applied alchemically).

In contrast, if the DR has X "or" Y, then you only need to have a weapon of one of the types. For example, a Dretch has DR 5/cold iron or good. Having either a cold iron weapon or a holy weapon will suffice for bypassing the DR.

I think he's referring to the chart about enhancement bonus and overcoming DR.

If your magic weapon is +3 or better, it overcomes Cold Iron or Silver.

+4, Adamantine.

+5, Alignment-based.

So, Why have it be "Magic and Silver" when a +3 magic weapon will suffice?

Why have it "Evil and Epic" when a +6 weapon should overcome it (due to all +5 weapons overcoming alignment based in the table).

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.


Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.

Thanks! Useful tidbit.


Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.

Correct. Also, a standard (read: non-artifact) magic weapon with a price greater than a +10 equivalent weapon is also an epic weapon. In Core Pathfinder, that's the same as saying a weapon with a bonus equivalent over +10, but I can illustrate it with armor instead: A suit of +5 glamered heavy fortification full plate is an epic item. Even though it's only a +10 suit of armor, the extra enchantment from the glamered property (which is normally a flat 2,700 gold and doesn't count as a bonus equivalent) pushes it over the price threshold.

That's actually really important to know when buying some of the higher-priced flat fee armor enchantments. For example, if you want greater energy resistance armor, it can't go on anything more than a total bonus of +5, because greater energy resistance costs 66k, a +5 suit of armor costs 25k, a +6 suit costs 36k, and the price cap for non-epic armor is 100k.


Also note that most epic weapon are made by Deities, gods, demons, etc.

The caster must be 3 x the bonus, on weapons.

+6 magic weapon requires a 18th level caster to create.
+7 magic weapon requires a 21th level caster to create.

Also, waiting for an Epic level handbook :)

Liberty's Edge

Frozen Forever wrote:

I think he's referring to the chart about enhancement bonus and overcoming DR.

If your magic weapon is +3 or better, it overcomes Cold Iron or Silver.

+4, Adamantine.

+5, Alignment-based.

So, Why have it be "Magic and Silver" when a +3 magic weapon will suffice?

Why have it "Evil and Epic" when a +6 weapon should overcome it (due to all +5 weapons overcoming alignment based in the table).

That is the table to which I was referring.

My question I guess boils down to how many of the DR's can one enchanted weapon bypass simultaneously.

Using the Pit Fiend as an example.

Could a +3 (counts as silver), holy weapon bypass it?
Could a +5 (counts as good), silver weapon bypass it?
Could a +5, non-silver, non-holy bypass it?

Hopefully that makes my "epic and evil" question a little clearer.


One weapon can bypass as many DRs as it qualifies for. All three of your listed weapons could bypass the DR of a Pit Fiend.


The DR chart lists Weapon Enhancement Bonus Chart. Page 562.

So a +1 Flaming Burst Ghost Touch weapon might have (+4 bonus), it still only counts as a +1 magic weapon vs Damage Resistance.

A +4 Flaming Burst Ghost Touch weapon might have (+7 bonus), it still only counts as a +4 magic weapon vs Damage Resistance.

Some effect do help you overcome Damage Resistance:
Bane = Adds +2 more enchantment bonus = Which helps vs DR.
Sun Blade = Adds +2 more enchantment bonus vs evil = Which helps vs DR.
Sword of The Planes = Varies by location.

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
One weapon can bypass as many DRs as it qualifies for. All three of your listed weapons could bypass the DR of a Pit Fiend.

Then what is the intention behind the solar's "epic and evil" DR? Bypassing the epic automatically bypasses the evil.

EDIT: Other than Ross' recollection (where an "epic" weapon with only +4 enhancemnent could bypass the "epic" portion and not the "evil" portion, I can't imagine a scenario where "epic and evil" is better than just "epic."

Grand Lodge

Forgottenprince wrote:
Zurai wrote:
One weapon can bypass as many DRs as it qualifies for. All three of your listed weapons could bypass the DR of a Pit Fiend.

Then what is the intention behind the solar's "epic and evil" DR? Bypassing the epic automatically bypasses the evil.

EDIT: Other than Ross' recollection (where an "epic" weapon with only +4 enhancemnent could bypass the "epic" portion and not the "evil" portion, I can't imagine a scenario where "epic and evil" is better than just "epic."

Basically what he said. In our home campaign, the weapon we called a "Chromatic Sword" would qualify. It was only +2, but had Keen(+1), Flaming Burst(+2), Icy Burst(+2), Shocking Burst(+2), Corrosive Burst(+2), and Bane vs. dragons(+1). It qualifies as an epic weapon due to its total enhancement value (+12), but only as a +2 (+4 vs. dragons) attack bonus. So it would overcome epic DR, but not alignment. Of course, this is mostly a carry-over from 3.5


Quote:

Then what is the intention behind the solar's "epic and evil" DR? Bypassing the epic automatically bypasses the evil.

If I remember right, its a hold-over from 3.5. Damage reduction worked differently there. In 3.5, a +5 weapon only counted as a +5 weapon, not as coldiron, silver, adamantine, and alignment-based as well.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Frozen Forever wrote:

So, Why have it be "Magic and Silver" when a +3 magic weapon will suffice?

Why have it "Evil and Epic" when a +6 weapon should overcome it (due to all +5 weapons overcoming alignment based in the table).

I'm guessing not everyone knows about that little addition to the rules, so it would be easy for someone to write "epic and evil" not realizing that epic implies "overcomes alignment-based DR".

I know I didn't know about it until just now.


Oliver McShade wrote:

Also note that most epic weapon are made by Deities, gods, demons, etc.

The caster must be 3 x the bonus, on weapons.

+6 magic weapon requires a 18th level caster to create.
+7 magic weapon requires a 21th level caster to create.

Also, waiting for an Epic level handbook :)

But you can skip that requirement with a +5 to the DC.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Or it is a small bone for those of us who have house-ruled that the 'overcoming dr' table does not apply.

In that our group read that, and decided that we didn't like the feel in our game. Mostly because we like the special materials being special.


Forgottenprince wrote:
Zurai wrote:
One weapon can bypass as many DRs as it qualifies for. All three of your listed weapons could bypass the DR of a Pit Fiend.
Then what is the intention behind the solar's "epic and evil" DR? Bypassing the epic automatically bypasses the evil.

Bypassing epic does not automatically bypass evil. A +2 brilliant energy vorpal greatsword is an epic weapon. It is not an evil-aligned weapon, however, nor is it a +5 weapon. Thus, it does not bypass DR/evil.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sizik wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:

Also note that most epic weapon are made by Deities, gods, demons, etc.

The caster must be 3 x the bonus, on weapons.

+6 magic weapon requires a 18th level caster to create.
+7 magic weapon requires a 21th level caster to create.

Also, waiting for an Epic level handbook :)

But you can skip that requirement with a +5 to the DC.

You can't skip the 3 times the enhancement bonus caster level, as it is explicitly stated in the description. For enhancement, you absolutely need the feat and to be 3 times the enhancement level.


Mistwalker wrote:
Sizik wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:

Also note that most epic weapon are made by Deities, gods, demons, etc.

The caster must be 3 x the bonus, on weapons.

+6 magic weapon requires a 18th level caster to create.
+7 magic weapon requires a 21th level caster to create.

Also, waiting for an Epic level handbook :)

But you can skip that requirement with a +5 to the DC.
You can't skip the 3 times the enhancement bonus caster level, as it is explicitly stated in the description. For enhancement, you absolutely need the feat and to be 3 times the enhancement level.

You also can't exceed the +5/+10 cap without Craft Epic Arms & Armour. Which doesn't yet exist in PF.

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
Forgottenprince wrote:
Zurai wrote:
One weapon can bypass as many DRs as it qualifies for. All three of your listed weapons could bypass the DR of a Pit Fiend.
Then what is the intention behind the solar's "epic and evil" DR? Bypassing the epic automatically bypasses the evil.
Bypassing epic does not automatically bypass evil. A +2 brilliant energy vorpal greatsword is an epic weapon. It is not an evil-aligned weapon, however, nor is it a +5 weapon. Thus, it does not bypass DR/evil.

Ok, so you are saying that +6 sword and a +2, brilliant energy, vorpal sword can both bypass "epic", but only the +6 sword can bypass "epic and evil"?

So with the +6 sword there is no meaningful difference between "epic" and "epic and evil", but with the +2, brilliant energy, vorpal there is?

Liberty's Edge

chavamana wrote:

Or it is a small bone for those of us who have house-ruled that the 'overcoming dr' table does not apply.

In that our group read that, and decided that we didn't like the feel in our game. Mostly because we like the special materials being special.

Yeah, I personally like that feel too, but my melee players would rebel... And one of them is my wife... so...


Forgottenprince wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Forgottenprince wrote:
Zurai wrote:
One weapon can bypass as many DRs as it qualifies for. All three of your listed weapons could bypass the DR of a Pit Fiend.
Then what is the intention behind the solar's "epic and evil" DR? Bypassing the epic automatically bypasses the evil.
Bypassing epic does not automatically bypass evil. A +2 brilliant energy vorpal greatsword is an epic weapon. It is not an evil-aligned weapon, however, nor is it a +5 weapon. Thus, it does not bypass DR/evil.

Ok, so you are saying that +6 sword and a +2, brilliant energy, vorpal sword can both bypass "epic", but only the +6 sword can bypass "epic and evil"?

So with the +6 sword there is no meaningful difference between "epic" and "epic and evil", but with the +2, brilliant energy, vorpal there is?

Depends on who you ask.

But the Brilliant sword says it effects evil, and when you figure up the cost... it would be a +5 magic weapon. So i would let you use a Brilliant sword as epic and vs evil. ((If you subtract out the +2 magic weapon, cost from the brilliant cost = You still end up with a +4 bonus weapon in cost )). And the sword say vs evil.


regardless I am still doubtful that a +6 or +7 weapon that is not infact epic should overcome DR, at the very least it will not overcome the Soalr's regeneration if it isn't :

- an artifact
- evil

That despite being able to overcome the DR, though I prefer to not have 'fake' epic weapons overcome DR.


Mistwalker wrote:


You can't skip the 3 times the enhancement bonus caster level, as it is explicitly stated in the description. For enhancement, you absolutely need the feat and to be 3 times the enhancement level.

I know what you mean but It’s not as clear cut as you claim it is.

”core rule book” wrote:


…. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

Emphasis mine, however Its not until later in the magic weapons section when what you are talking about comes up

”also core” wrote:


Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met…

So what keeps nagging at me is what the heck does a special prerequisite mean, if they had meant it to be like an item creation feat than they could have added four words and it would have been irrefutable as it stands it can be ruled either way the only time this rule has ever even come up is at lvls 12-13 when I’ve had time to accumulate enough wealth to make a +5 weapon. Actually I just realized something; you know what’s a prerequisite for items that’s not an item creation feat. gold cost.


Oliver McShade wrote:

Also note that most epic weapon are made by Deities, gods, demons, etc.

The caster must be 3 x the bonus, on weapons.

+6 magic weapon requires a 18th level caster to create.
+7 magic weapon requires a 21th level caster to create.

Also, waiting for an Epic level handbook :)

Hey so correct me if I'm wrong from the way you phrased that it you seem to be under the impression that the clx3 thing is based on the total effective bonus of the weapon, that's actually not the case special abilities with an enhancement bonus equivalent only count for how much the item costs to make.

also you may be interested to know that a company called little red goblin games put out rules for epic level play called "legendary levels" I checked it out and it's a good system, like very good, as a matter of fact if I had to pick between the epic level hand book and legendary levels, I would pick legendary levels every time.


Zurai wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.

Correct. Also, a standard (read: non-artifact) magic weapon with a price greater than a +10 equivalent weapon is also an epic weapon. In Core Pathfinder, that's the same as saying a weapon with a bonus equivalent over +10, but I can illustrate it with armor instead: A suit of +5 glamered heavy fortification full plate is an epic item. Even though it's only a +10 suit of armor, the extra enchantment from the glamered property (which is normally a flat 2,700 gold and doesn't count as a bonus equivalent) pushes it over the price threshold.

That's actually really important to know when buying some of the higher-priced flat fee armor enchantments. For example, if you want greater energy resistance armor, it can't go on anything more than a total bonus of +5, because greater energy resistance costs 66k, a +5 suit of armor costs 25k, a +6 suit costs 36k, and the price cap for non-epic armor is 100k.

What page is that on? Not arguing I just can't remember exactly where this information is located.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.

Correct. Also, a standard (read: non-artifact) magic weapon with a price greater than a +10 equivalent weapon is also an epic weapon. In Core Pathfinder, that's the same as saying a weapon with a bonus equivalent over +10, but I can illustrate it with armor instead: A suit of +5 glamered heavy fortification full plate is an epic item. Even though it's only a +10 suit of armor, the extra enchantment from the glamered property (which is normally a flat 2,700 gold and doesn't count as a bonus equivalent) pushes it over the price threshold.

That's actually really important to know when buying some of the higher-priced flat fee armor enchantments. For example, if you want greater energy resistance armor, it can't go on anything more than a total bonus of +5, because greater energy resistance costs 66k, a +5 suit of armor costs 25k, a +6 suit costs 36k, and the price cap for non-epic armor is 100k.

What page is that on? Not arguing I just can't remember exactly where this information is located.

The core rule max is +10 total for enhancement bonus. Both the core PF and 3.x rules set the max at 10. It is in the magic weapons section.

The epic rules for 3.5 expanded the table, and anything that was +11 or higher was epic. PF does not have its own epic rules yet, but a weapon had to be +6 without including special abilities to bypass epic DR. +5 is the highest enhancement a non-epic weapon can have not including special abilities.

PS:For armor it is in the armor section. I don't think the PF rules mention epic rules though, but most of us just use the 3.x epic rules.


I'm sorry I should have explained better -- I meant the 200,000 gp or more bit -- doesn't help that I didn't quote the right part either I guess.

Since we are talking about DR anyways something that always struck me as funny is the fact that penetrating strike and greater penetrating strike have greater effect against DR/epic than they do DR/- it always just seemed a bit off to me.


I agree with you on the DR/epic, and DR/- issue. I guess to the designers epic is just another tag, but I would have liked to see it be more special.

With the 200,000 question I was always under the impression that the enhancments were the factor, not the price. It just so happened that +10 enhancement top out at 10. That is why I was mentioning enhancement and not prices in my last post.

PRD wrote:
A weapon's enhancement bonus and special ability bonus equivalents can't total more than +10.
3.5 SRD wrote:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10.


Epic DR is overcome by weapons that have a +6 enhancement bonus or greater. No weapon, with the current rules, can be created with a greater than +5 ehancement bonus. Epic weapons require something more than what the current magic item rules allow (hence them being epic). If you had a +6 enhancement weapon, an artifact or weapon of the gods, it would overcome Epic AND Evil DR, due to the aforementioned table of various +'s overcoming different types of DR.

Where Epic AND Evil comes into play as a possible issue is the fact that Epic creatures natural weapons qualify as Epic weapons, but do not qualify as Evil weapons, unless they have some special property that allows them to do so.

Shadow Lodge

Rocky:

Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.

This guy works for Paizo.


Kthulhu wrote:

Rocky:

Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.
This guy works for Paizo.

Yes, yes he does. As a software developer. And as he says, IIRC. Nothing written in the rules says what he says, at least that I have found. If this is an official ruling, it should be put into the FAQ or Errata document. Till then, it's the opinion of an employee who isn't sure it's correct.


Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

Rocky:

Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.
This guy works for Paizo.
Yes, yes he does. As a software developer. And as he says, IIRC. Nothing written in the rules says what he says, at least that I have found. If this is an official ruling, it should be put into the FAQ or Errata document. Till then, it's the opinion of an employee who isn't sure it's correct.

IIRC he came in 2nd for the annual RPG Superstar competition, and has published articles that are RPG based. It is not like he is just some computer guy at Paizo.

No his words are not official and they won't be until Paizo puts out their own epic rules.

We do know that only actual enhancements, and not special abilities bypass DR though. Using that as precedent he would be correct.


wraithstrike wrote:
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

Rocky:

Ross Byers wrote:
A magic weapon with a total bonus equivilent of over +10 is also Epic, IIRC, so it is possible to have an Epic Weapon with a +4 or lower bonus, which would make it not automatically overcome alignment.
This guy works for Paizo.
Yes, yes he does. As a software developer. And as he says, IIRC. Nothing written in the rules says what he says, at least that I have found. If this is an official ruling, it should be put into the FAQ or Errata document. Till then, it's the opinion of an employee who isn't sure it's correct.

IIRC he came in 2nd for the annual RPG Superstar competition, and has published articles that are RPG based. It is not like he is just some computer guy at Paizo.

No his words are not official and they won't be until Paizo puts out their own epic rules.

We do know that only actual enhancements, and not special abilities bypass DR though. Using that as precedent he would be correct.

I've seen other employees, SKR for example, post their opinions on here and it turn out to be wrong. So until it's official, it's just an opinion, and possibly an incorrect one at that.

I'm not sure which he you meant in he is correct, but I assume you meant Ross, since that's who was being discussed. I don't think that's the case, but until there is an official ruling, it's just one of those things that will be discussed again and again over time.


Why would he not be correct if the other DR's are bypassed in the same manner?


He said you could have an enhancement lower than +6, if the total bonus is greater than +10? First off, that's not possible according to current rules, the max effective bonus is +10. Even allowing it though, Epic DR is bypassed by +6 enhancement bonus. Not +4 enhancement +7 worth of special features.

If they want to add rules saying greater than +10 total effective bonus is possible, great. I love me some epic rules. Till they do, or at least add a faq entry for Epic DR, it doesn't work.


The way I read it he is saying you can have a total(including special abilities) enhancement of +11 as an example, but the actual enhancement for purpose of overcoming DR might still be a +4.

I don't think he is saying that a +4 overcomes DR. If he did then I would disagree also.

I do agree that by the current rules no epic weapons are possible. I was basically discussing what it took to bypass DR.


wraithstrike wrote:

The way I read it he is saying you can have a total(including special abilities) enhancement of +11 as an example, but the actual enhancement for purpose of overcoming DR might still be a +4.

I don't think he is saying that a +4 overcomes DR. If he did then I would disagree also.

I do agree that by the current rules no epic weapons are possible. I was basically discussing what it took to bypass DR.

What about the bane, furious, and grayflame properties? all of those increase a weapons enhancement bonuses in certain circumstances.


Robot_nachos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The way I read it he is saying you can have a total(including special abilities) enhancement of +11 as an example, but the actual enhancement for purpose of overcoming DR might still be a +4.

I don't think he is saying that a +4 overcomes DR. If he did then I would disagree also.

I do agree that by the current rules no epic weapons are possible. I was basically discussing what it took to bypass DR.

What about the bane, furious, and grayflame properties? all of those increase a weapons enhancement bonuses in certain circumstances.

They are special abilities that grant enhancement bonuses under certain conditions. They are not enhancement bonuses themselves.


So does that mean a +5 bane magical beast long sword gets around the Tarrasque's DR15/epic ?


Back on the original topic, why does a solar list epic and evil as damage resistance when epic should overcome DR?

Because of regeneration. Certain monsters aren't destroyed when reduced to 0, and regenerate from scratch, such as planetars, solars, and adamantine golems.

Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid);

If memory serves, typical regeneration is stopped by whatever DR bypass is on the creature: On solars - regeneration 15 (evil artifacts, effects, and spells) So although an epic weapon according to the +3/+4/+5 equivalency allows you to deal damage normally, its not enough to stop the regeneration, and matching the DR to the regeneration is probably the 3.x hangover.


Quick question: At level 10 a monk's unuarmed strikes become lawful as well as magic...does that mean they gain the axiomatic property?


Axiomatic wrote:
Axiomatic: An axiomatic weapon is infused with lawful power. It makes the weapon law-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against chaotic creatures. It bestows one permanent negative level on any chaotic creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.
Ki pool wrote:
...At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction...

It does not give axiomatic, however it gives something that's the same as a part of axiomatic:

Quote:
It makes the weapon law-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction.

So your attacks don't do an extra +2d6 against chaotic creatures, but if they have DR/Lawful, you can overcome it.


Mistwalker wrote:
Sizik wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:

Also note that most epic weapon are made by Deities, gods, demons, etc.

The caster must be 3 x the bonus, on weapons.

+6 magic weapon requires a 18th level caster to create.
+7 magic weapon requires a 21th level caster to create.

Also, waiting for an Epic level handbook :)

But you can skip that requirement with a +5 to the DC.
You can't skip the 3 times the enhancement bonus caster level, as it is explicitly stated in the description. For enhancement, you absolutely need the feat and to be 3 times the enhancement level.

Yes you can, and no you don't.

From the FAQ:

Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?

As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13


I'd like to make everyone aware that a +2 weapon with +12 in special abilities does not make the weapon count as epic for damage reduction. It's specifically said that "epic" damage reduction requires an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater to bypass. That means the weapon has to be +6 regardless of how many abilities you put on it. The rules don't care if you have a Vorpal Brilliant Energy Speed Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Keen +1 Greatsword that's an epic item, the weapon's power isn't epic and it doesn't bypass epic damage reduction despite being +20. The enhancement bonus is the only thing the DR looks at.

That means the damage reduction of 15/epic and evil makes no sense. No matter how you slice it, fulfilling the "epic" requirement fulfills the "evil" requirement because of the bypassing DR chart.

So the only thing I see it doing is allowing the creature's attacks count as epic and good when fighting other creatures.

Honestly, I think the chart should be removed from the game. By letting a certain enhancement bonus overcome material damage reduction, you give no incentive to have those special weapons beyond a certain level. That or, as a DM to house rule, I'd "reset the list" for epic weapons. That would mean that, if epic is part of the damage reduction, you no longer overcome those lesser types at +6. You would need +8 (+3 into epic) for silver and cold iron, +9 for adamantine, and +10 for alignment-based.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Damage Reduction question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.