Dear Paizo,
It hasn't been a long love affair between us, but it has been a deep one (no, not a Deep One, that's something else entirely). Your product rekindled a love affair with The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game that had burned bright from the late-70s to the late-80s, but had grown stale as I began looking for more subtlety and flexibility in my RPGs. I didn't even think of it again until I heard about Pathfinder and loved the story of the plucky upstart cocking a snook at the multinational corporation. I checked out your product, and I loved it.
And I've loved most everything since. I'm now in two regular Pathfinder games and about to play my first Society game this weekend. And as great as everything else is (and I do mean that), the APs are what grabbed my attention the most and made me run the first canned adventure I've run since White Plume Mountain and the only published campaign I'd stack up against my homebrews.
But coming up we have Carrion Crown and Jade Regent. And the thing is, both of them worry me. I'm not interested in Jade Regent because, well, I don't care a whit about East Asian games -- but that's no big deal because I know you can't please everyone all the time and most people are slavering for it.
Carrion Crown is a different beastie though. As I mentioned, I've been playing for 30-odd (very odd) years, and I've gamed with a lot of different people and a lot of different groups. And I can honestly say that it would never have occurred to any of my groups to save werewolves or vampires from whatever was killing them. And why not? Because they're werewolves and vampires, that's why not. Even if we felt like it would be momentarily advantageous to have them not killed, we'd have realized that, hey, werewolves and vampires are evil to the core and utterly untrustworthy. They'd stick a shank in us and eat us the moment they had the chance. Because, you know, they're werewolves and vampires. It's what they do. You don't blame the scorpion for stinging, but you don't take it to bed either. You step on it.
Under no circumstances would any of us ever seriously entertained the thought of "helping unite the Werewolf King savage people,and risking becoming tainted by the curse of lycanthropy" or "saving the vampires from something killing them by exploring the vampires’ deadly society and indulging its blasphemous traditions." Why would it? It's not like they're trustworthy allies. If you save them, they'll still eat you, and if not you then some other innocent person that we're supposed to be protecting. You don't help the monsters, even if you think they have information you need -- you kill them, pilfer their belongings, and quiz their remains through magic. Because relying on monsters is worse than going it alone.
And beyond that, because we're the freakin' heroes and that's what the heroes are supposed to do. The heroes aren't supposed to coddle the monsters so that they can continue their depredations. They're supposed to kill the monsters, starting with the little ones and working our way up. No player I've ever played with would seriously think that allying with the monsters was what we were supposed to do; every one of us would see it as a trick to be avoided. No player I've ever played with would want to ally with the monsters. My current groups have read the plot summaries, scratched their heads and said, to a man, "Well wouldn't we just kill the werewolves and vampires?"
So, given that, convince me not to cancel my AP subscription for the next year. I don't care a snap for the fiction (I've never read a word and consider it a profound waste of pages). I know the monsters will be printed in a bestiary somewhere down the road. Why would I drop $20 a month on Jade Regent, which doesn't appeal, and Carrion Crown,, which doesn't even make sense?
Confused in Minnesota
Hey I'll admit I'm new to Pathfinder (not 3.5/3.x) but I think Carrion Crown looks like its set up as a "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend" concept, which to me at least is an interesting avenue to explore. I've been gaming over 30 years myself (wow)and I am well aware of the deversity in gaming groups is ... well... exstensive, but just something to consider.
At least wait until they come out to make a judgment on them;) My $0.02, nothing more...
At least wait until they come out to make a judgment on them;) My $0.02, nothing more...
The problem, of course, is that I'm a subscriber, so if I wait until I see it to make a judgment on whether or not I should purchase it, I will already have purchased it, making the judgment moot. :-D
Creative Director
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CARRION CROWN: While there are elements in this AP where the party COULD ally with werewolves, vampires, and other monsters in order to defeat greater evils, we're taking a cue from the popularity of our more sandboxy campaigns (Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull). While Carrion Crown is one of the most story-driven campaigns we've done in a long time, we're trying really hard to maintain some sandbox elements in the stories themselves. As it turns out, that's not just something we're applying to the exploration element of the adventures—it's also something we're applying to the NPC interactions. In short, an adventure might provide rules and guidelines for how to handle things if the PCs wish to ally with a group of monsters, but it'll also provide rules and guidelines for how to handle the adventure if the PCs do NOT want to ally with them. Forcing a specific storyline is, in a way, WORSE railroading than simply forcing a specific route through a region, and we're doing our best to prevent that from happening. The enemy of my enemy is my friend way of playing IS a popular way to play the game, so we don't want to ignore that angle. But neither do we want to force that method of play upon everyone. In the end, we'll provide support for both methods (and here and there, other methods as well)—which basically leaves it up to the GM to know what method his players prefer and then relies on him to present the adventure in that light to his group.
Now, note how large my explanation of that factor is. It is, in and of itself, about as big as a typical website blurb or back cover copy on its own. When we present those sales points blurbs, we have to quickly summarize the product in an accurate and exciting way, usually MONTHS before we have the actual text in hand as well. As a result, a lot of the subtitles of what we're doing in a complex product gut buried or even lost.
Also, we're not changing into another group of people when we do Carrion Crown. It's being created by the same folks who built all the other Adventure Paths, so if you loved how those came out, chances are good you'll find things to love in Carrion Crown.
JADE REGENT: While I'm relatively confident that your fears about Carrion Crown will prove to be false once you see how we're handling the adventures, I'm not so sure about Jade Regent. in part that's because you haven't given me any information about WHY you don't like Asian style adventures (where you gave some really well-reasoned concerns about Carrion Crown). I can say this much, though—of the six parts of Jade Regent, only the last three will take place in Tian-Xia. The first 3 parts are more about the journey TO Tian-Xia (with a bit of "here's some Asian fantasy themes intruding upon European themes), so those will have a lot of information and stuff for you to check out—especially if you're interested in Varisia, the Land of the Linnorm Kings, or the Crown of the World.
But as for the rest... my only request is that if you decide to cancel your subscription to sit out Jade Regent, at least the later installments in the AP a flip through to see HOW we tackle Asian adventure content and let me know what you thought.
I feel that the power of house ruling will course strongly through Carrion Crown's vampire book. I'll likely have to house rule vampirism forcing an evil alignment on you if the story really does progress as cumbersome as possible. But, I'll trust the writers and editors to also think with a brain and really get in there good with a solid plot hook that makes this situation feasible.
But on the werewolves, that's a different story.
Note that werewolves are not chaotic evil by template; the example werewolf is chaotic evil, but the template has no mention of your alignment being forced to become chaotic evil. They're no more evil by nature than actual wolves, which I believe is a change from 3.5e's monster manual version. A paladin could become an afflicted lycanthrope and be fine; a natural lycanthrope could be a paladin and also be fine.
In addition, the plot synopsis is that the king of the werewolves is gutted and that there's a big werewolf civil war going on. Humans get involved and likely get slaughtered by the eeeevil side of this fight. So the good side of the fight begs the PCs to find the king of the werewolves' heir to end the fight so that the werewolves can slink off to their hidden kingdom again.
As a good character, I don't see the problem with: killing the evil werewolves so that the good werewolves can prosper; stopping a bloody war between two factions; preventing more human lives from ending because they are dumb and think they can kill werewolves by running into the forest with a silver pitchfork.
If you've played The Witcher, it gives me that kind of feeling.
So, take that as you will.
Just throwing in my two cents... the concepts described by James Jacobs insofar as the Carrion Crown is concerned is driving me to add a subscription. Paizo has yet to let me down with any of their products so far, so a little trust from me is due.
If you're already a subscriber, why not read over the first book? If you don't like it, toss it on eBay for a dollar or two cheaper and cancel then. If you like it you're in a good spot with the first AP book in hand.
Like I said... just my two cents.
CARRION CROWN: While there are elements in this AP where the party COULD ally with werewolves, vampires, and other monsters in order to defeat greater evils, we're taking a cue from the popularity of our more sandboxy campaigns (Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull). While Carrion Crown is one of the most story-driven campaigns we've done in a long time, we're trying really hard to maintain some sandbox elements in the stories themselves. As it turns out, that's not just something we're applying to the exploration element of the adventures—it's also something we're applying to the NPC interactions. In short, an adventure might provide rules and guidelines for how to handle things if the PCs wish to ally with a group of monsters, but it'll also provide rules and guidelines for how to handle the adventure if the PCs do NOT want to ally with them. Forcing a specific storyline is, in a way, WORSE railroading than simply forcing a specific route through a region, and we're doing our best to prevent that from happening. The enemy of my enemy is my friend way of playing IS a popular way to play the game, so we don't want to ignore that angle. But neither do we want to force that method of play upon everyone. In the end, we'll provide support for both methods (and here and there, other methods as well)—which basically leaves it up to the GM to know what method his players prefer and then relies on him to present the adventure in that light to his group.
Now, note how large my explanation of that factor is. It is, in and of itself, about as big as a typical website blurb or back cover copy on its own. When we present those sales points blurbs, we have to quickly summarize the product in an accurate and exciting way, usually MONTHS before we have the actual text in hand as well. As a result, a lot of the subtitles of what we're doing in a complex product gut buried or even lost.
Also, we're not changing into another group of people when we do Carrion Crown. It's being created by the same folks who built all the other Adventure Paths, so if you loved how those came out, chances are good you'll find things to love in Carrion Crown.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand now I'm excited about it. Thank you, that allayed my concerns and gave me something pretty fantastic to look forward to as well. I'm in!
JADE REGENT: While I'm relatively confident that your fears about Carrion Crown will prove to be false once you see how we're handling the adventures, I'm not so sure about Jade Regent. in part that's because you haven't given me any information about WHY you don't like Asian style adventures (where you gave some really well-reasoned concerns about Carrion Crown). I can say this much, though—of the six parts of Jade Regent, only the last three will take place in Tian-Xia. The first 3 parts are more about the journey TO Tian-Xia (with a bit of "here's some Asian fantasy themes intruding upon European themes), so those will have a lot of information and stuff for you to check out—especially if you're interested in Varisia, the Land of the Linnorm Kings, or the Crown of the World.
But as for the rest... my only request is that if you decide to cancel your subscription to sit out Jade Regent, at least the later installments in the AP a flip through to see HOW we tackle Asian adventure content and let me know what you thought.
The reason for that is it's simply not to my taste, in the "I do not like thee, Dr. Fell" sort of way. At the same time, I realize that this sort of content IS to an awful lot of people's liking, and since you can't please everyone I completely understand that sometimes things will come along that I simply don't care for. It's not even that I don't LIKE it so much as I don't care about it at all. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.
CARRION CROWN:
JADE REGENT:
Oh, sure, James. Make me even MORE excited about these two APs. I may have to start up extra groups just to run them! (My Kingmaker group just hit the third book and we've been going since last May!)
Dang, decisions and waiting. You people are evil. EVIL, I say! (In a good way.)
Keep up the fantastic work, wicked man! ;)
ChrisO
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I think now I understand why D&D is so popular in the U.S. - people expect a black and white morality. Good vs Evil. Heroes vs Monsters. Freedom vs Oppression. America vs Global Terrorism. Everything is either Good and Allied, or Evil and Enemy. You're with us, or against us. If it's a monster, it's Evil - kill it! It makes life so easy, doesn't it?
CARRION CROWN:
JADE REGENT:
Oh, sure, James. Make me even MORE excited about these two APs. I may have to start up extra groups just to run them! (My Kingmaker group just hit the third book and we've been going since last May!)
Dang, decisions and waiting. You people are evil. EVIL, I say! (In a good way.)
Keep up the fantastic work, wicked man! ;)
ChrisO
I prefer to think of him as a big mean meanhead.
I think now I understand why D&D is so popular in the U.S. - people expect a black and white morality. Good vs Evil. Heroes vs Monsters. Freedom vs Oppression. America vs Global Terrorism. Everything is either Good and Allied, or Evil and Enemy. You're with us, or against us. If it's a monster, it's Evil - kill it! It makes life so easy, doesn't it?
I do not expect black and white morality in real life. Nor do I in gaming. I have no problem with moral ambiguity.
But in the US we have a saying: lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. In other words, if you deal with creatures who want to eat you or other innocent people, do not be surprised when they try to eat you or other innocent people. Now, in the US we do, generally, consider eating people to be a bad thing and being eaten to be undesirable. We also tend to consider consorting with people who like to eat people to be a bad thing. We are funny that way, I'll admit, and our quaint attitudes on being eaten may seem amusing to those accustomed to a more worldly approach to the whole food chain thing.
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The problem is - you say werewolves and vampires are evil. By the virtue of being werewolves and vampires. Profiling, that's how this is called.
Sure, they are listed as Evil in the bestiary. Drow are too, and (sigh, hate to bring him up) there's Drizzt. And many others "yes, we're the Good offshots that don't get along with the rest of the bunch" examples, even in Golarion. So your party would likely fire away and blow them apart at sight?
And I'm not even getting into the "ally with lesser evil to defeat a greater one" theme.
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Creative Director
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The problem is - you say werewolves and vampires are evil. By the virtue of being werewolves and vampires. Profiling, that's how this is called.
Sure, they are listed as Evil in the bestiary. Drow are too, and (sigh, hate to bring him up) there's Drizzt. And many others "yes, we're the Good offshots that don't get along with the rest of the bunch" examples, even in Golarion. So your party would likely fire away and blow them apart at sight?
And I'm not even getting into the "ally with lesser evil to defeat a greater one" theme.
It's not profiling. It's right there, in the book: CHAOTIC EVIL. Game constructs are not complex living people. And being able to think of things as CHAOTIC EVIL and not have to worry about "profiling" or all that is all part of what makes gaming an escape from reality and, in the end, entertainment.
Does that mean that you can NEVER have a non-evil werewolf? Of course not. But the majority of them ARE evil, and ARE bad guys, otherwise encountering a non-evil one has no real meaning.
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Creative Director
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The reason for that is it's simply not to my taste, in the "I do not like thee, Dr. Fell" sort of way. At the same time, I realize that this sort of content IS to an awful lot of people's liking, and since you can't please everyone I completely understand that sometimes things will come along that I simply don't care for. It's not even that I don't LIKE it so much as I don't care about it at all. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.
Fair enough. I hope you check it out anyway. And I'm honestly a little curious as to why it's not to your taste, but if you don't want to go into it further, that's fine.
Personally, having grown up watching movies like Godzilla, Seven Samurai, Ringu, and various kung-fu movies, I've always been interested in Asian fantasy themes.
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
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I do strongly disagree with you James. Making game constructs simple can lead to reinforcing people in their dichotomous views on the world around them. And honestly this simplification is one of the criticism that hits D&D often on this side of the big water, and leads to popularity of more "gray" settings, such as WFRP or WoD.
Sure, they are listed as Evil in the bestiary. Drow are too, and (sigh, hate to bring him up) there's Drizzt.
Interestingly, Salvatore himself kind of counterpointed that with the short story he wrote about Drizzt meeting a good-aligned goblin. I think it's the most clever thing he ever wrote by a wide margin. Dark Mirror, I think was the name.
Gorbie, we're not all the same guy, y'know.
I am a US gamer and I have no issue with siding with werewolf kings. I was a political strategist for Senator Woofgrrr's campaign back in 2006 and believe you me there were no more gore splattered hotel rooms and hooker limbs left in his wake than you'd find with any of the human politicans I've worked for. If anything, Woofgrrr considerately lapped up most criminal evidence before I ever arrived on the scene.
Please don't believe what they show him doing to meat vendors at the San Gennaro festival in When Senators Attack. That was a CGI-enabled frame job.
The problem is - you say werewolves and vampires are evil. By the virtue of being werewolves and vampires. Profiling, that's how this is called.
Sure, they are listed as Evil in the bestiary. Drow are too, and (sigh, hate to bring him up) there's Drizzt. And many others "yes, we're the Good offshots that don't get along with the rest of the bunch" examples, even in Golarion. So your party would likely fire away and blow them apart at sight?
And I'm not even getting into the "ally with lesser evil to defeat a greater one" theme.
If you want to play Sociology and Semantics, you're in the wrong game. Yes, IN REAL LIFE nobody is born evil. IN REAL LIFE it's possible have a thoroughgoing and rigorous debate on whether evil even exists.
However, Pathfinder (and D&D, and every single other RPG you can conceivably mention) is, by definition, not real life, as evidenced by the fact that it is a game. In Pathfinder (and D&D) you cannot argue about the existence of evil, some creatures are simply born evil, and all the sociological theory in the world won't alter that fact one little bit. Evil exists as an objectively definable force. You may not like that fact, but your not liking it doesn't alter it in the slightest.
Vampires view humans (and other sentients) as a salad bar and, White Wolf and Anne Rice notwithstanding, I'm going to stake out the moral high ground and say that that is evil. You may disagree, and that's certainly your right.
Werewolves are, in this game, creatures governed by the passionate need to rip people to shreds. Some may resist it with greater or lesser success, but that need is general. Again, I'm taking the moral high ground and saying that ripping people to shreds is evil. Your mileage may vary.
Are all vampires evil? That's what the game says. Are all werewolves evil? The constant gnawing desire to eat people generally turns them that way. Is consorting with creatures who want to eat you generally not the brightest thing in the world? I'd say so. Is depending on creatures who want to eat you a bad idea? In my opinion, yes.
So in other words, your mentioning of profiling is a canard.
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
One of my players has a raging, ah, excitement for musical theatre. If you wrote that I'd probably be forced to run it.
Maybe I can just write a musical conversion of the Sixfold Trial.
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The concept of the alignments works well in general. With Were-wolves, most of the time it's represented by combining the hunter/predator nature of a wolf, with the cunning and intellect of a human. In a modern human society, hunting and killing sentient beings is considered an evil act, bandits, serial killers, evil cultists sacrificing to a mad god. We all agree, that these can be seen as "evil" people. Though there may be differentiating reasons and purposes, over all, these people are evil. Were-wolves tend to hunt humans (or elves, or whatever) more than other animals, simply because they know they can. They're bigger, faster, deadlier, and more often smarter, than their "non lycanthropic kin", which grants them a medium of confidence.
Not all were-wolves are evil, per say, but the bulk of them may be. Gregg's post may also elude to the "base concepts" of medieval fantasy. In old D&D, and older fantasy in general, vampires and were-wolves WERE evil. Were talking about a supernatural force as well, with vampirism being magical, as well as the were-wolf curse, which means the "gray area" is a lot less gray when there are magical forces compelling people.
Touching on Drow, and using forgotten realms lore, the Drow were the Elves that followed Loalth (forget how to spell it) after the Crown Wars, so the "drow" may not be naturally evil, per say, their evil is an environmental evil. Yes, there can be exceptions, such as Drizzt, or the handful that followed the Goddess Elliestrae, but in general, the society they are raised in dictates their attitudes. To them, it's not evil, but it is hate, anger and rage. They kill each other in order to get ahead, and not just on a rare occurrence, where it's against the law. No, it's accepted, if not promoted. It's one thing if a side believes they are right, and kill another because they're wrong, (which isn't necessarily right in itself) but they're killing neighbors, friends and family that share the same belief, just to be more popular and powerful. That's not right, that's evil.
Over all, the alignments representing a creature, race, etc. aren't "every member" (with the exception of maybe outsiders, as they are dictated by otherworldly forces), but it's the vast majority.
As with dealing with "lesser evils" to fight a "big evil", I'd rather let evil vampires live, who just feed when they have to, than an otherworldly force that plans to re-write reality, but that's just me.
P.S. Please forgive my horrible spelling and grammar errors, feeling ill at the moment...
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
....aaaaaaaand now I want to be ornery and start calling for an AP based on Jesus Christ Superstar.
Fair enough. I hope you check it out anyway. And I'm honestly a little curious as to why it's not to your taste, but if you don't want to go into it further, that's fine.Personally, having grown up watching movies like Godzilla, Seven Samurai, Ringu, and various kung-fu movies, I've always been interested in Asian fantasy themes.
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
Oh I love a lot of Asian movies, particularly ones where there isn't a lot of comedy (I find comedy to be extremely culturally specific, whereas love and honor and vengeance and all that good stuff crosses all the cultural lines pretty well). But for some reason (almost certainly lack of familiarity with the cultural context, I suppose) gaming in the setting doesn't do anything for me. I understand, say, courtly love in 13th century France, but the Japanese tea service is utterly foreign to me (Ha! Foreign! Get it?) So without a firmer grounding in cultural context, things get divorced from meaning and it just becomes pushing pieces around a board. I don't dislike it, it just doesn't GRAB me in the way that gaming based in a European, or Mediterranean, or Middle Eastern, or African, or even Indian context does.
So when was that musical AP coming out? I can't wait!
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Creative Director
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I do strongly disagree with you James. Making game constructs simple can lead to reinforcing people in their dichotomous views on the world around them. And honestly this simplification is one of the criticism that hits D&D often on this side of the big water, and leads to popularity of more "gray" settings, such as WFRP or WoD.
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that we want Golarion to be black and white as regards evil. That's hopefully obviously NOT the case, since we actually don't have a region in the world that's obviously the "Good Guy" region—a few might come close, but there aren't any perfect shining good guy examples in Golarion. Likewise, there are plenty of regions that would normally be called "Bad Guy" regions, but that are presented as being places where good guys can live and even prosper (Cheliax is a great example of this).
Presenting a world where angels are often evil, vampires are often good, and so on makes for a world with no cohesive core. I don't want to get into a huge alignment argument, but when we list alignments for monsters in our bestiaries, the assumption is that the majority of the creatures of that type ARE of that alignment. That said, it's important to keep in mind that it doesn't matter if 99% of the werewolves in a game world are evil if the ONLY ones the PCs ever encounter are good. From the player's viewpoint, since all he ever encounters in his game are good werewolves, it would appear to that player that all werewolves in the game are good. As a result, the first time we do a really big werewolf-themed adventure, it's important to present them as the bad guys than it is to present them as good guys.
Now, in the case of "Broken Moon," it IS a bit more complex than that. We've already had plenty of evil werewolves in our adventures, so now we CAN start to explore a more complex view of them. At the same time, we don't want to hardwire into the adventure only one way for the PCs to interact with the werewolves—"kill them all" or "ally with some" are both legitimate solutions and tactics.
Anyway, as for criticisms that the game oversimplifies good and evil... I put it to you that Paizo's products often AVOID these oversimplifications. At least, the Adventure Paths do, I think. And judging by the fact that we've had a lot of complaints over the years about "Your adventures are impossible for paladins to play in due to the gray areas," we might have even erred on the side of making things TOO gray.
...I'm honestly a little curious as to why it's not to your taste, but if you don't want to go into it further, that's fine.
Personally, having grown up watching movies like Godzilla, Seven Samurai, Ringu, and various kung-fu movies, I've always been interested in Asian fantasy themes.
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
As someone who shares Gregg's feelings on this, let me attempt to articulate a line of reasoning.
Asian monster movies like Godzilla and martial arts flicks don't much appeal to me. I can only stand so much of dudes in rubber suits or badly-overdubbed or erratically subtitled actors running around beating each other up before I lose interest (to be fair, though, I feel more or less the same about Western martial arts films).
I do like J-horror films and video games, but the things I like about those films and games don't translate well to tabletop gaming anyway. I have a lot of trouble evoking a true sense of horror in players. People need light to read character sheets and check dice rolls, and it's hard to make people afraid of what bumps in the night in a well-lit room, IMO. (Anyone who wishes to disavow me of that opinion, though, is welcome to share your techniques, because I'd like to achieve it; I just don't believe it's possible.)
Western and Eastern mythology, systems of ethics and morality, and ultimately, culture overall are very, very different. That in and of itself isn't so bad. But unfamiliarity becomes problematic when you are a GM trying to breathe life into a setting. I surely could run a game about samurai and ninja if I was so inclined, but the feel I would create is something very pulpy and cartoony, likely more inspired by Kill Bill or the early years of Eastman and Laird's TMNT than anything else. As a GM, I just don't feel in my element in an Oriental setting, and frankly those aren't the types of stories I want to tell. And as a player, I feel much the same way.
More to the point, the character archetypes that my players want to play are very much Westernized. If I told them that I was going to restrict class choices to samurai, ninja, and wu jen because we're gonna play an Asian themed game, they'd look at me like I was nuts and find another GM.
Additionally - and I realize this may be an unfair bias, but here it is nonetheless - I have played in several Western-themed games where players with fixations on Asian culture (usually anime addicts) were brought in, begged the GM to allow them to play Eastern-styled PCs, and then created serious in-game problems by trying to impose that cultural view onto an existing Western framework. Their characters do odd things and act in ways that disrupt party cohesion, and when the other players say, "Hey, WTF did you just do that?", they come back with some obscure thing about Japanese or Chinese culture that justifies the disruptive act. Some even attempt to justify defying rules with these arguments - Oriental-themed spellcasters come to mind in particular. Shrine maidens are so annoying... but I digress.
Basically, at least in my experience, these players act smug and pretentious about their cultural fetish and ruin the fun for everyone else by insisting that we should have known, for instance, that the party transmuter shouldn't morph into a cat because Kazime has heard fairy tales about evil cat people in Japan, and that's why she just stabbed our caster to death. *grr arrgh*
Now, while the Golarion version of OA might be more appealing to me, since I like the other aspects of the campaign world and I don't NEED to understand Japan or China to understand Golarion's Eastern-styled setting, that gamble just isn't enough to make me want to buy or run Jade Regent.
In short, I get enough exposure to Eastern culture through my wife's anime obsession. I'd prefer to keep my fantasy RPGs Western-flavored, if it's all the same to you.
But I'd be totally down for a musical AP. Heck, I'd even pay extra for the inclusion of lead sheets and a CD/mp3 library of backing music so everyone can find their notes and keep in tune. But that's probably just the crazy music major in me talking. :)
Fair enough. I hope you check it out anyway. And I'm honestly a little curious as to why it's not to your taste, but if you don't want to go into it further, that's fine.
Personally, having grown up watching movies like Godzilla, Seven Samurai, Ringu, and various kung-fu movies, I've always been interested in Asian fantasy themes.
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
At this point I think I'm obligated to turn the Jade Regent into an excuse to sing all the songs from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Mikado. Find a way to make "Three Little Maids" work in one of the adventures please!
Coming soon to a Gaming Store near you... Golarian The Musical AP!!! ~chuckles~ Hell, My fiance would love that!
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
Buffy managed to make a musical episode amazing, so I'm sure Paizo would manage too :)
I think the OP was a fair point, and James has fairly answered it.
I also am leery of "you need to ally with these guys that are total douches" trope. It was a dealkiller in Second Darkness and was received poorly in other APs where you have stuff like that. Some PC groups would be into that, and others would legitimately decide "We're NOT going ally with demons or vampires or whatever, screw them all." It's been dome actually a bit more than I like in existing Paizo stuff so it's a legit concern, but I'm happy to hear that it'll be only one of multiple options - I also hate it when all "monsters" are written as "fight until dead killbots" and aren't reasonable in any way.
In fact as I think about it - man there's been a lot of this.
We refer to the Zon-Kuthonites you're "supposed" to ally with in Curse of the Crimson Throne as "The Boner Squad" after that one guy's big bone instant fortress. We didn't like how obvious it was we "should" ally with them and that they were totally going to stab us in the backs eventually. We gave in to the Plothammer instead of just icing them.
And in recent APs, we've felt like the Plothammer said we "had to" ally with a succubus (RotR) and other undesirables. Seems like that happened in Age of Worms too.
We rejected SD entirely because of the "ally with the elves you'd rather kill yourself" plot (not the drow, the allegedly good ones).
In fact as I think about it - man there's been a lot of this.
Honestly, this is one of my only dislikes as far as the APs I've read so far go --
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Creative Director
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But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)Buffy managed to make a musical episode amazing, so I'm sure Paizo would manage too :)
I've only seen 2 episodes of Buffy. One of them wasn't the musical. I've heard great things about it, but I refuse to watch it.
Same goes for "Dr. Horrible's Singalong Blog." Pass.
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I think the OP was a fair point, and James has fairly answered it.
I also am leery of "you need to ally with these guys that are total douches" trope. It was a dealkiller in Second Darkness and was received poorly in other APs where you have stuff like that. Some PC groups would be into that, and others would legitimately decide "We're NOT going ally with demons or vampires or whatever, screw them all." It's been dome actually a bit more than I like in existing Paizo stuff so it's a legit concern, but I'm happy to hear that it'll be only one of multiple options - I also hate it when all "monsters" are written as "fight until dead killbots" and aren't reasonable in any way.
In fact as I think about it - man there's been a lot of this.
** spoiler omitted **
On the flip side, making those guys mroe grey themselves and one in particular genuinely(if disturbingly) likable has made them one of the highlights for our CotCT group.
As long as those bad guys are given some depth to play with, I figure it's plently workable for a wide range of groups.
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I do strongly disagree with you James. Making game constructs simple can lead to reinforcing people in their dichotomous views on the world around them. And honestly this simplification is one of the criticism that hits D&D often on this side of the big water, and leads to popularity of more "gray" settings, such as WFRP or WoD.I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that we want Golarion to be black and white as regards evil. That's hopefully obviously NOT the case, since we actually don't have a region in the world that's obviously the "Good Guy" region—a few might come close, but there aren't any perfect shining good guy examples in Golarion. Likewise, there are plenty of regions that would normally be called "Bad Guy" regions, but that are presented as being places where good guys can live and even prosper (Cheliax is a great example of this).
Presenting a world where angels are often evil, vampires are often good, and so on makes for a world with no cohesive core. I don't want to get into a huge alignment argument, but when we list alignments for monsters in our bestiaries, the assumption is that the majority of the creatures of that type ARE of that alignment. That said, it's important to keep in mind that it doesn't matter if 99% of the werewolves in a game world are evil if the ONLY ones the PCs ever encounter are good. From the player's viewpoint, since all he ever encounters in his game are good werewolves, it would appear to that player that all werewolves in the game are good. As a result, the first time we do a really big werewolf-themed adventure, it's important to present them as the bad guys than it is to present them as good guys.
Now, in the case of "Broken Moon," it IS a bit more complex than that. We've already had plenty of evil werewolves in our adventures, so now we CAN start to explore a more complex view of them. At the same time, we don't want to hardwire into the adventure only one way for the PCs to interact with the werewolves—"kill them all"...
James,
I'm generally very happy with the creative direction of Golarion so far. Laori Vaus, Hook Mountain Massacre, Morlocks in Serpent's Skull ... there's plenty of shades of grey to explore.
But I do know that you are an American company that produces stuff for a market where US takes circa 70% of the share. This means gore is in, nipples are out. Hyperviolence is OK, sex not so much. What I would loathe is to see Golarion "declawed" and made Black'n'White.
Every time I try to bring people closer to Golarion/PF I hear one argument repeat over and over: "C'mon, it's D&D. That's a kid's game about noble knights and evil dragons. It's nowhere as philosophically and morally complex as WoD, Kult, even L5R are.". What follows is me trying to show some striking points of Golarion to win people over and convince them to let me take a shot and run a PF game for them. Please, supply me with ammo :)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Confused in Minnesota
Gregg,
The good news is that no matter how bad things get, and no matter how confused you might be, you will always have the Lion's Tap in Eden Prairie, home of the best hamburger in the entire world, to tide you over.
We should all be so lucky.
GO VIKES!
:)
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Confused in MinnesotaGregg,
The good news is that no matter how bad things get, and no matter how confused you might be, you will always have the Lion's Tap in Eden Prairie, home of the best hamburger in the entire world, to tide you over.
We should all be so lucky.
GO VIKES!
:)
No way, Mona.
Matt's Bar and the Jucy Lucy are the way to go. No better bad-for-you meal, and you get to dip your fries in your hamburger.
GO VIKES!
No one is quite so perpetually heartbroken as a Vikings fan. :)
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Personally I am looking forward to Carrion Crown, but I have VERY high expectations and hope it will compare to Ravenloft for setting the standard for gothic-horror adventures.
As far as having a good horror experience in gaming I have done it a few times and played in several games. You know as a player the game is scary when you go home and have nightmares for days. Rule One for a scary game, knock off the Monty Python jokes... Rule Two PCs die, no punches pulled at all The GM spots an opportunity and kills off the character... Rule Three be descriptive. The room's environment has nothing to do with it. It is a shared experience and if even one person does not agree to suspend disbelief and engage in the sense of horror then it is doomed to failure.
As far as Jade Regent, I am also not INTO playing in oriental settings. I am not immersed and educated in the culture and therefore many elements have little meaning for me.
Now I do enjoy kung-fu movies and godzilla flicks. But then again they really are not truly cultural movies, but rather action movies from that culture.
Jade Regent sounds to me like an adventure of exploration. Marco Polo going east, or even like books and movies like Shogun and Tai-Pan by James Clavell, or even movies like the Last Samurai. This sounds more like a west meets east and the adventures of culture clash that arise.
Based upon James' description it seems like the adventure starts in Varisia and moves north through the Lands of the Linnorm Kings and on to the Crown of the World, before reaching Tian-Xia. So players would be starting off as "westerners" and are going to go explore the "mysterious east" by way of traveling north...
Now if the ENTIRE adventure was set in Tian-Xia then I would be very very reluctant to try it out. As it is it sounds more like an adventure of exploration than an oriental adventure.
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Every time I try to bring people closer to Golarion/PF I hear one argument repeat over and over: "C'mon, it's D&D. That's a kid's game about noble knights and evil dragons. It's nowhere as philosophically and morally complex as WoD, Kult, even L5R are.". What follows is me trying to show some striking points of Golarion to win people over and convince them to let me take a shot and run a PF game for them. Please, supply me with ammo :)
Rise of the Runelords... particularly the first three volumes, have plenty of edge, nipple, gore, and complex characters in it. For starters.
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Creative Director
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Now I do enjoy kung-fu movies and godzilla flicks. But then again they really are not truly cultural movies, but rather action movies from that culture.
Not quite true. The first Godzilla movie is very much about a Japan coming to terms with how World War II ended. It's a really pretty grim, depressing, and dark movie... particularly in the original Japanese version WITHOUT Raymond Burr spliced into the movie.
And while some of the subsequent Godzilla movies got pretty campy... a lot of them retained some pretty interesting subplots about things like pollution and atomic energy.
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But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)Buffy managed to make a musical episode amazing, so I'm sure Paizo would manage too :)
I've only seen 2 episodes of Buffy. One of them wasn't the musical. I've heard great things about it, but I refuse to watch it.
Same goes for "Dr. Horrible's Singalong Blog." Pass.
Thats a real shame, normally I am not big on musicals but both of those I liked a great deal. :)
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But I do know that you are an American company that produces stuff for a market where US takes circa 70% of the share. This means gore is in, nipples are out. Hyperviolence is OK, sex not so much. What I would loathe is to see Golarion "declawed" and made Black'n'White.
Every time I try to bring people closer to Golarion/PF I hear one argument repeat over and over: "C'mon, it's D&D. That's a kid's game about noble knights and evil dragons. It's nowhere as philosophically and morally complex as WoD, Kult, even L5R are.". What follows is me trying to show some striking points of Golarion to win people over and convince them to let me take a shot and run a PF game for them. Please, supply me with ammo :)
Personally i would love to see more of that myself. Paizo does it more than most, but I would love to see them push it even more personally. More mature stuff that is, of all types. I do think Golarion is better than most the only D20 based game that comes to mind that pushed it more was Conan by Mongoose, but well it's Conan so thats expected.
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First I liked the old Godzilla myself and some of the first follow up ones, they got more and more campy as they went.
As to the OP about the Jade Regent feeling. I understand, i don't have a issue with Asian themed stuff but it doesn't really appeal to me either. I won't cancel for the simple fact is I know half the AP takes place in the Inner Sea region or is about traveling and I am sure there will be other things I will enjoy in the last three AP's. But I do get the feeling.
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Note that werewolves are not chaotic evil by template; the example werewolf is chaotic evil, but the template has no mention of your alignment being forced to become chaotic evil. They're no more evil by nature than actual wolves, which I believe is a change from 3.5e's monster manual version. A paladin could become an afflicted lycanthrope and be fine; a natural lycanthrope could be a paladin and also be fine.
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)
OK, so just throw out my goblin AP ideas in public why don't you?
But if, for example, Paizo were to produce the AP equivilent of my most hated genre, the Musical, I would probably cancel my subscription for a half-year too. ;-)What about "Godzilla, The Musical"?
The Japanese have proven with Macross that you can easily produce "Giant Robot The CD Collection". "Godzilla, the Musical" should be a snap.
Rich, did you ever have a score in mind for 'The Sixfold Trial'?
Or particular actors/singers who'd fit the parts?
Or would that have been Nic's speciality?
Good question Snorter, the way we worked on that one was we chatted over the trials and came up with those together, but Nic wrote the play and came up with the cast, so he would be the one to ask about that, but I'm not letting him out of his cell.
I told him he was annoying me.
I told him, but he wouldn't listen.
So now he's in my cellar, and that's where he's staying, and it's his fault.
Bad Nic, stop shouting, no one can hear you but me.
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Rich, did you ever have a score in mind for 'The Sixfold Trial'?
Or particular actors/singers who'd fit the parts?
Or would that have been Nic's speciality?
Good question Snorter, the way we worked on that one was we chatted over the trials and came up with those together, but Nic wrote the play and came up with the cast, so he would be the one to ask about that, but I'm not letting him out of his cell.
I told him he was annoying me.
I told him, but he wouldn't listen.
So now he's in my cellar, and that's where he's staying, and it's his fault.
Bad Nic, stop shouting, no one can hear you but me.
Do not forget to give him an occasional slice of american pizza. He may not eat it but it will remind him of home.
For the record, I will likely end my subscription after Carrion Crown. Not because I'm not big into Asian-flavored games (I'm not), and not because the premise doesn't sound cool (it does), and I certainly would like to return to Sandpoint.
But I've got three APs sitting on my shelf that I haven't run yet. Throw in CC and I'll have four. I can't continue that path! But the decision certainly has nothing to do with the quality of the product. I just don't game as often as I'd like, and probably won't for the foreseeable future. Kids have that effect, dangit.
And as an aside,