I've reached a point in my game in which two dragons that were wronged by the party have finally caught up with them and want their revenge. These dragons went to the trouble of paying someone to ressurect the players so they could have the joy of killing them, since they were robbed of it the first time.
The party will be departing on a ship accross the sea that is captained by a man that has been hired by the dragons. He is going to get them stranded on a small island in the middle of the sea.
So here it is:
-The party is made up of a Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue, and Wizard. All level 8
-They are stranded on an island approx. 2 miles accross, (it has thick jungle like vegetation and caves)
-The dragons are a green dragon and a fang dragon. Fang dragons are from forgotten realms, they have no breath weapon but their melee attacks do one size category larger damage and their bite attack has 1d4 con damage.
The dragons have not been statted out yet because I'm really unsure how to handle it. I've always been bad at determining how difficult a fight with a dragon is going to be. Any help will be appreciated, help statting out the dragons, help with fun ways to mess with the party, ideas of making interesting fight involving two dragons at once. This fight has been a very long time coming so I want it to be very interesting.
One of the best ways you have to adjust the difficulty is to play with the timing.
1) PC's fight dragon 1
2) PC's gain advantage
3) Dragon 2 arrives
4) PC's get whipped for a while
5) Dragon 1 leaves, figuring fight is over
6) PC's regain upper hand
rinse, repeat....
You could also have the dragons turn on each other to win ALL the treasure, or accuse another of, effectively, kill-stealing, etc.
My favorite is to have the dragons beat on the PCs for a while, then start fighting each other. Because they can fly, they can have a chase sequence while the PCs regroup on the ground.
Then, you can use the dragons as recurring villains the following game too.
If memory serves, green dragons can breathe water. Set up the fang dragon as the opponent, with some reasonable defensive precautions.
Then, when the green emerges from the water, you'll get to savor that quiet hush falling over the gaming table, as the players think "We're screwed"
I really like the idea of the green dragon using water, Perhaps an underground lake in the center of the island... lots of ideas there.
Also what tactics do dragons that you use, or that you've seen work the best? The party is weakest with range, so how long should I keep fly by attacking? Or what other strategies work to stop the party from surrounding and just beating to death and healing through the damage. (It's their favorite strategy)
It's at moments like these, I like to throw twists at the game, not just for the PCs but the villains too.
Option 1) Go waaaaaaaaaay back to X-Men Issue 01 Comic, make the island 'alive', PCs are running hell for leather from the Dragons, enter the forest and start getting tangled up. Green Dragon flies in, usual Evil Badass Monologue .... and then a tree leans over and smacks him right in the chops.
PCs get a bit of a break as the Island is sensing the 'largest' Life-forms, ie the Dragons, and attacks them first, giving the PCs a chance to run for cover as the Dragons tear the ever-living s$%@ out of the quasi-sentient parasitic forest, possibly finding themselves some sort of ruined boat or similar to take shelter in and then, after the Dragons get frustrated and start bickering with each other, make their way back to shore to make a certain Captain walk the plank. Which brings us to Option 2.
Option 2) Oh, how it pains me to do this, Mighty Megatron! *heave*
Dragons ... other than their species wide kink of screwing anything that moves, the only thing that stops Dragons from ruling the world is other Dragons, really. Adventurers account for only a small dip in the population, overall. Both Dragons may have chipped in to resurrect the PCs, but the Green Dragon might want to take them home and stuff them as monuments to it's own ego, while the Fang Dragon might wish to tear them apart a piece at a time over the next two weeks to savour their agony and despair.
Let's face it, with egos that big, head-butting is bound to happen.
Perhaps one Dragon has 'conscripted' the other via their True-Name or some other method. The 'Conscripted' Dragon has in turn maneuvered the PCs to the Island for the sole purpose of changing the Conscripted Dragon's True-Name or otherwise destroying, purifying or accquiring some sort of relic that will break the other Dragon's control.
PCs meet (For the sake of an Example) a servant of the Fang Dragon, who is working in a round-about fashion to escape the wording of the Green Dragon's command, such as 'Do not give aid willingly or unwillingly to our enemies', but that command only applies to the Fang Dragon, not his half-breed servant, a trump-card he has kept secret for decades, leading the PCs towards a giant obsidian monolith that holds the essence of the first enemy the Fang Dragon killed. Destroying the Monolith could have a variety of effects, in the case of a True Name, it could actually 'change' the Fang Dragon's True Name just enough to help the Fang Dragon break free from the compulsion.
Then, the PCs are in the middle of a fight with the Green Dragon in a gulch when *BANG* the Fang Dragon charges out of the sky and lands square in the middle of the Green Dragon's back, clawing, biting and lashing away with that monstrous twin-bladed tail. PCs are now more at risk of getting crushed by the two behemoths than the usual bite/claw/claw/wingslap/wingslap/tail combo.
Option 3) "This is MY Turf!"
The Dragons have unwittingly sent the PCs to the lair of an ancient and reclusive Mystic Theurge who, quite frankly, is getting very. g#~&*!n. tired. of all these interruptions. Dragons come swooping in to bodyslam the PCs into the beach-sand .... and go flying off in screams of rage as they are deflected by a powerful mystical shield, which should do some damage, all things considered.
PCs can plead, bribe or otherwise get the the Crazy Old Hermit to give them some kind of hand while the Dragons attempt to find a way past the shield, the Green Dragon possibly swimming in through a channel in the reefs where the Barrier doesn't quite reach, the Fang Dragon just battering a hole in the Barrier, both of which should take some time, inflict some damage and give the PCs time to take stock, prepare some defences and try and find a way off the Island.
A young green dragon (size: large) is CR 8. Two dragons that are both CR 8 is an EL 10 encounter, which should be a good challenge for a balanced party of 4 level 8 PCs. What you have to ask yourself is do you want one big, knockdown-dragout fight or do you want to run multiple encounters? I would suggest multiple encounters to avoid the 15-minute adventuring day scenario.
Some suggestions for multiple scenarios in a single day:
1) EL 7 encounter using multiple enemies either in the water (fighting in the water could add +1 to CR depending on character abilities) or on the beach. Perhaps the presence of the dragons is driving out natural wildlife who crash into the PC's. Not supposed to be a tough encounter, but it will set the stage for the island and eat up some resources.
2) CR 8 dragon encounter using flying attacks. Keep dragon at range so it can escape when it needs to. Establishes the presence of a dragon (most likely fang dragon) on the island and can get PCs moving towards where they think its lair is. This isn't designed to fully engage the PC's, but to use up a few resources and have them drive away the dragon.
3) EL 9 encounter using multiple enemies and perhaps some terrain and/or traps thrown in to hinder the PC's efforts. These would be more native island inhabitants (plants, humanoids, magical beasts, whatever is appropriate). Captured humanoids (if included) could provide some additional information via proper skill checks.
4) EL 10 encounter with the two dragons. Either the PC's corner the fang dragon (who has managed to heal up its wounds via the healing waters of a magic pool near its lair) in its lair and initiate combat or the fang dragon returns for blood as they close in on it. After a few rounds, the green dragon arrives and joins in the fray. Should definitely be a challenging encounter.
Good luck with however you do it!
Wow, these are some fantastic ideas. HalfOrcHeavyMetal, I really like the idea of the island being alive. Going to use that and see if the PCs can use the fact that the island is attacking the dragons as well to their advantage.
Dogsgamer, I think I am going to go with staggering the dragon fights where they see them separate throughout the day, mainly because the dragons get in each other's way. (ie green dragon doesn't wait for fang to move before he uses his breath weapon.)
Here's one more question. I want to make the green dragon huge instead of large because the players are known for casting enlarge on themselves thus making the fight seem less epic when the dragon is the same size. I know it won't be RAW but what adjustments can I make and still keep him CR8-10
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The most dangerous thing about dragons is their age and intelligence. This makes them a lot more dangerous than most creatures of their CR--dragons know how to lay traps and ambushes, and they often have powerful minions. So I think the most important thing for you to consider is whether the dragons are working together. If they are working together, you probably want to make the combined encounter an "average" or "challenging" encounter, considering that they can use illusions, stealth, flight, and long-range spells and breath weapons to do a lot of damage to players.
However, if the dragons are working separately, they may (as arkraus suggested) try to outdo each other, steal the kill, etc. They might even try to double-cross each other, in which case they will be using parts of their resources against each other instead of on the players, in which case you can probably make each of them an "average" or "challenging" encounter.
I'll paraphrase a few things from the "running the dragon" section of the 3.5 Draconomicon. I'm going off of memory here.
1) Dragons are NEVER surprised. While the "heroes" spend a few minutes outside "preparing", the dragon has probably figured out each ones class, specialties, and favorite breakfast food (the book really mentions the breakfast food thing). Oh, and has used its own magic to enhance itself. And has been listening in on the plan the whole time. Even if the party tries to be sneaky, the dragon's senses are so superior, it knows they're coming from a few hundred feet away.
2) Dragons play to their strengths. Most commonly: flyby attack. A dragon will fight on the wing for as long as possible. Also, terrain advantages such as the Green's Water Breathing and forest camouflage.
3) A dragon is willing to fight at a disadvantage, if that situation creates MORE of a disadvantage for its opponents. Watch their reactions when the Green activates a scroll of Antimagic Field.
That's all I can think of at the moment, I'll get back to you after rereading the chapter.
Here ya go. I actually ran this years ago...
Some dragons just love illusions. Dragon 1 cast illusion of himself while maintaining invisibility. Let the PCs blow their spells buffing then attacking the major image. LOL when I ran this, I had some guy blow a staff of power on the retributive strike on it only to find out it was just an illusion :)
So let them blow their buffs then kick the crap out of them but give them an avenue to escape. Have the dragons dog their trail, giving them escape after escape but not letting them rest the 8 hrs to get spells back. Finally let them escape for good with a healthy dose of fear for the dragons. Im talking escape as in 2 of the 5 mortally wounded and missing some magic items thing. Litterly, escape with their lives.
The dragons can be long term opponents or meet their maker the next opportunity. Either way, they will be opponents that the group will always remember!
The ship "springs a leak" after a mysterious crash from below. The PCs mus choose what they can swim with and make for shore. The island is mostly rock so the PCs must use thier survival skills to survive and once they are weak enough, say three or four days later the Fang shows up to gloat.
Maybe the green pretends to hate the fang and tries to get the group to fight amongst itself ("it was the cleric who told the fang where your ship was headed so it could sink you and share your gear between the two but if you help me then the past will be forgotten.")
Dragons are supposed to be super smart so you have to have all the angles covered just as a near genius would. You might need to fudge a bit for situations the dragons would have forseen.
A maze/gauntlet of death on a rocky outcropping of an island would be fun. Sounds like the dragons would have had a lot of time to plan this revenge, make it very sweet and cold(a dish best served cold)!!
I really need to post on these forums more. This is far more than I hoped for when I asked for advice. The game is tomorrow night so I'm getting everything prepped right now.
The party is going to sink about a mile off shore and have to swim in. I'm thinking that a few sharks on the way in will start off with a good amount of excitement. When they get to shore the fang dragon will swoop down, and cause some chaos. After the party gets their footing he'll grab one and drop him in the middle of the jungle. The party will have to try and fight through the jungle as fast as they can to regroup. The green dragon is going to have traps set up all through the jungle and stalk the the whole way. Attacking only for a moment if they get caught in a trap or split up further. He will lead wild animals to them to provoke them into attacking the party as well.
And that is just the beginning. After night fall that jungle is going to seem like it is full of a dozen dragons through the use of major image and other illusions. Not sure about how to end it yet.
By the way. Have you thought about one of the dragons attacking the ship with short climatic battle on the deck? And ship sinking due to the attack? Of course that would make players know that they are up against dragon. Which might be good if you want them to prepare. On the other hand if the attacker will be green dragon they might be surprised by fang dragon cooperating with green.
Also, knowning that players would try strange thing be warned that they might play one dragon against the other given chance. Maybe that would be their chance of escaping?
By the way. Have you thought about one of the dragons attacking the ship with short climatic battle on the deck? And ship sinking due to the attack? Of course that would make players know that they are up against dragon. Which might be good if you want them to prepare. On the other hand if the attacker will be green dragon they might be surprised by fang dragon cooperating with green.
Also, knowning that players would try strange thing be warned that they might play one dragon against the other given chance. Maybe that would be their chance of escaping?
Haha nice video. They actually know the two dragons are working together. But they won't know they were behind the shipwreck until after they are on the island. And the part about playing the dragons against each other? Yeah they did that about a year ago, and got away. The dragons figured it out before ripping each other to shreds and have been tracking them down since.
They actually know the two dragons are working together. But they won't know they were behind the shipwreck until after they are on the island.
So if you don't want them to know they will be fighting dragons maybe, depending upon their magical abilities, conjure something nasty to wreck the ship to throw them off-track (like, it was a demon/elemental/undead kraken, dammit, we didn't expect dragons!)
And the part about playing the dragons against each other? Yeah they did that about a year ago, and got away. The dragons figured it out before ripping each other to shreds and have been tracking them down since.
So it rather won't work again, Green Dragon is too cleaver for it (I do not remember Fang Dragon overall intellectual capacity, however).
So if you don't want them to know they will be fighting dragons maybe, depending upon their magical abilities, conjure something nasty to wreck the ship to throw them off-track (like, it was a demon/elemental/undead kraken, dammit, we didn't expect dragons!)
Well the green dragon is going to break the bottom of the hull and conjure a major image of a dragon turtle swimming away.
So it rather won't work again, Green Dragon is too cleaver for it (I do not remember Fang Dragon overall intellectual capacity, however).
The fang dragon isn't too smart, well he is but his rage gets the best of him. The green dragon is going to use this, probably to the untimely death of the fang dragon.
On another note, how many illusionary dragons until they lower their guard for a real one? haha They are going to hate me.
Bear in mind a young green dragon (CR 8) does not have caster levels yet and does not have a SLA other than entangle. So if your players find out it was a major image somehow created by the young dragon, they might balk.
Why not have the dragon rip up the hole and leave it as a mystery as to what did it (they see a large image swimming away deep underwater, let their imaginations go wild)?
Edit to say that you can apply the Giant template to make a large CR 8 dragon into a huge CR 9 dragon. Pick either the Quick Rules changes or the Rebuild Rules changes.
Giant Creature (+1)
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.
Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.
Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.
Bear in mind a young green dragon (CR 8) does not have caster levels yet and does not have a SLA other than entangle. So if your players find out it was a major image somehow created by the young dragon, they might balk.
Yeah I think not knowing what took out the bottom of the boat is going to be best. I plan on using Major Image throughout the night for a lot of fun. As a rule with dragons I usually add spells and other immediate actions that I feel will enhance the encounter. I actually deviate from RAW when it comes to spells pretty often. If I find a spell I want to use, or a combination of spells I want to use against them I never let caster level or other silly things like that get in the way. They are used to fighting things that aren't as they are in the books. For us it is always storytelling & fun > rules
I just wanted to update everyone who gave me ideas. It went far better than I expected. We only got through half of the planned material but that sort of thing happens when players get creative with their roleplaying.
The ship was attacked by the green dragon, but all anyone saw was a shadow. They swam to shore with the crew and were attacked by tiger sharks, only the players made it to shore. As soon as they get on shore the fang dragon rushes them from the tree line, taking off and grabbing the Elemental Air Wizard and flying up 120 feet next turn andlets him go in mid air and the wizard casts levitate and smirks at me like, my plan didn't work. The next round starts with the fang dragon right next to him. All 6 attacks hit and one crits. Dropped him to negative hitpoints ,and the cleric waiting at the ready spends a hero point to channel energy right before the wizard hits the ground. The wizard then spends a hero point to cast levitate again right before he hits, thus saving his life. The next two rounds the dragon circles and is deciding how to attack. The players spend this buffing with their best spells and healing. Smiling, the fang dragon flies away and drops into the jungle on the island.
What a start... This was only topped with the next time they see the dragon they corner him just a few hours later under the canopy of the trees where he will have a hard time flying away. The cleric and wizard proceed to throw everyone of their highest level buffs on the barbarian as he charges. Only to discover he was a major image.
The game ended with the cleric activating his magic cutlass. This cutlass is an intelligent weapon that was blessed by his deity, the god of the ocean and weather. The cutlass can cast control weather once per month. He figures the dragons can't fly away in a monsoon. Well he's right. He rolls the duration and it is 43 hours.
So now I need to determine how to handle the effects of this rainfall and how much flooding will happen. Also I'm not sure if they realized that they turned this enviroment to the absolute perfect place for a green dragon to stalk them. I really need to come up with fun ways for the dragon to use this.
Edit:They also fought some jungle wildlife and met a ranger that lives on the island and doesn't want them there. So they still had a blast.
Edit:They also fought some jungle wildlife and met a ranger that lives on the island and doesn't want them there. So they still had a blast.
I once disguised a dragon as the dog of a crazy old man (who was actually working for the dragon). The party got all suspicious of the old guy living all alone in a ruined castle that he claimed was a tourist attraction in the middle of nowhere, but they never even looked twice at the dog. Sadly, that game fell apart before a session or two later, before they could confront the old man about the lies he told them about what was under the castle... but the plan was that they'd get into combat with him, and then while they were focused on him, the dragon would drop his spell, and unleash his full attack on the party from the midst of it. Possibly with a quickened breath weapon too. Could the green dragon have charmed the ranger, and be disguising himself as something fairly innocent around him (or even be the ranger himself)?
I really like the idea of the green dragon using water, Perhaps an underground lake in the center of the island... lots of ideas there.
Also what tactics do dragons that you use, or that you've seen work the best? The party is weakest with range, so how long should I keep fly by attacking? Or what other strategies work to stop the party from surrounding and just beating to death and healing through the damage. (It's their favorite strategy)
The green dragon could live in an cave below the island also...and there's a tidal geyser that sits in the center of the island.
2 dragons, small spit of land, already intolerant of each other, the dragons find the party as treasure to covet and not share...at all...make the characters use guile and intrigue to survive, play the dragons ego against each other.
Make sure you are tracking the food rations and now, due to the monsoon, their water. The ground water will become contaminated because of the storm blowing all kinds of gunk into the water and because the storm will kill creatures such as alligators which will begin to rot in the ponds and streams right away.
What is their shelter, will their food and spell components stay dry? How wil they replace their components and get dry clothes? How will they stay warm. Eveyone should get the fatigued condition on an almost constant basis.
Make them come up with a survival plan for the duration of their stay on the island. Green dragon breath should foul much of their rations unless carefully contained. The ground should be super muddy so no 5 foot steps or running. Become very familiar with movement rules and listen, climb, swim and perception modifiers for a storm.
Then start with the "you hear a crash from the left about 150 feet away" (tree falling?) then "you hear a rumble coming up fast from behind you" (mud slide? flash flood?) or maybe "you hear a beast whailing 100 yards to the right" (deer or boar stuck in the mud-escapes before the PCs arrive) Lightning strikes?? Too much to cover, anything can happen :- )
Make sure you are tracking the food rations and now, due to the monsoon, their water. The ground water will become contaminated because of the storm blowing all kinds of gunk into the water and because the storm will kill creatures such as alligators which will begin to rot in the ponds and streams right away.
What is their shelter, will their food and spell components stay dry? How wil they replace their components and get dry clothes? How will they stay warm. Eveyone should get the fatigued condition on an almost constant basis.
Make them come up with a survival plan for the duration of their stay on the island. Green dragon breath should foul much of their rations unless carefully contained. The ground should be super muddy so no 5 foot steps or running. Become very familiar with movement rules and listen, climb, swim and perception modifiers for a storm.
Then start with the "you hear a crash from the left about 150 feet away" (tree falling?) then "you hear a rumble coming up fast from behind you" (mud slide? flash flood?) or maybe "you hear a beast whailing 100 yards to the right" (deer or boar stuck in the mud-escapes before the PCs arrive) Lightning strikes?? Too much to cover, anything can happen :- )
All of the above, plus what lives on the Island? Anything could possibly challenge the Dragons AND PCs? A Huge-Sized Dire Snake in the middle of shedding it's skin, and thus easily irritable by the unseasonable downpour, a nesting Dragon-Turtle who reacts instinctively to protect her clutch at the presence of two massive predators such as the Dragons, a colony of variant Wyverns (no sting-attack and no wing-attacks but have a swim speed equal to their flight-speed and Improved Grapple/Drag as a bonus feat, allowing the Gull-veryns to pull fish, or small-sized PCs, out of the water or off the ground and take them back to the communal 'nest') with gull-like colouration who come to investigate the unusual commotion on their turf.
I'm still in favour of a Parasitic Pseudo-Forest, myself. Treat the whole damn thing as rough terrain, with every 1d6 rounds the PCs must endure an grapple attempt, trip attempt, reposition attempt or perhaps deal with 'traps' such as vines lashing at them (treat as a Swinging Axe Trap, but with Whips!) Spines being launched from strangely deformed looking shrubs (treat as a Poisoned Dart Trap) or trees moving to crush them (treat as a 'Sideways' Falling Block Trap). I'd treat all the Combat Maneuver attempts as if performed by with a CMB of 10+5+4 = CMB 19. That's a suitable challenge for most of the PCs but not insurmountable. For the Dragons, they should be, as the largest 'life forms' in the area, facing a CMB to all of the above at 10+10+4 = CMB 24. Not crushingly in favour of the PCs but still gives them a slight advantage.
Of course, assuming the Forest doesn't suffer however much damage you as DM believe is enough to make it 'withdraw', the PCs are then going to be facing the same CMB as the Dragons were as the Parasitic Pseudo-Forest turns it's instinctive attentions to them.