So, basically, for 1 Ki point a ninja can gain any of the other tricks listed for a handful of rounds. This Excludes rogue talents and master tricks, but does not exclude Combat Trick.
That means that for one Ki point a ninja can access any basic combat feat in the game. (they still have to meet the prerequisites)
Potentially worse, this seems to stack with itself. Really need Sunder? It's two rounds away. Disarm? Yeah, two rounds. Same for Improved Steal.
Got polymorphed by the party mage? Rending Claws is a combat feat.
Basically, this ability makes the Ninja the most adaptable combatants in the game. They're essentially two rounds away from being able to tailor themselves to any encounter. By 6 or 7th level the ability will last about as long as most combats.
On one hand, I really, really like this level of versatility, but on the other I'm not sure that's the way it's intended to work. Honestly, if any class should have a feature like this, it should be the Fighter.
My 2 cp.
So, basically, for 1 Ki point a ninja can gain any of the other tricks listed for a handful of rounds. This Excludes rogue talents and master tricks, but does not exclude Combat Trick.
That means that for one Ki point a ninja can access any basic combat feat in the game. (they still have to meet the prerequisites)
Potentially worse, this seems to stack with itself. Really need Sunder? It's two rounds away. Disarm? Yeah, two rounds. Same for Improved Steal.
Got polymorphed by the party mage? Rending Claws is a combat feat.
Basically, this ability makes the Ninja the most adaptable combatants in the game. They're essentially two rounds away from being able to tailor themselves to any encounter. By 6 or 7th level the ability will last about as long as most combats.
On one hand, I really, really like this level of versatility, but on the other I'm not sure that's the way it's intended to work. Honestly, if any class should have a feature like this, it should be the Fighter.
My 2 cp.
The ninja can only select a ninja trick she does not know, which means you can only get one combat trick and only if you do not have combat trick already.
Why would any Ninja not know Forgotten Trick if it would let them do so much?
The ninja can only select a ninja trick she does not know, which means you can only get one combat trick and only if you do not have combat trick already.
Glad I misread the rules a little, but it doesn't really get rid of the goonishness of the ability.
Say you don't take Combat Trick, and take Combat Expertise and Power Attack as your two 1st level feats (as a human). This pretty much opens you up to all of the cool combat options out there.
The ninja can only select a ninja trick she does not know, which means you can only get one combat trick and only if you do not have combat trick already.Glad I misread the rules a little, but it doesn't really get rid of the goonishness of the ability.
Say you don't take Combat Trick, and take Combat Expertise and Power Attack as your two 1st level feats (as a human). This pretty much opens you up to all of the cool combat options out there.
The way its worded is bad, but combat trick is a rogue talent so sorry but that will not work.
Edit: Ninja'd, in a ninja thread lol.
The ninja can only select a ninja trick she does not know, which means you can only get one combat trick and only if you do not have combat trick already.Glad I misread the rules a little, but it doesn't really get rid of the goonishness of the ability.
Say you don't take Combat Trick, and take Combat Expertise and Power Attack as your two 1st level feats (as a human). This pretty much opens you up to all of the cool combat options out there.
The way its worded is bad, but combat trick is a rogue talent so sorry but that will not work.
Edit: Ninja'd, in a ninja thread lol.
Combat trick is also a ninja trick. It will work, I probably wouldn't do it though.
I believe if you read the trick you pay the 1 ki point for the forgotten trick then you also have to pay the Ki point(s) for the trick you want to remember making this a 2 ki point ability - not cheap in my opinion
That is my understanding, but combat trick does not cost ki.
I believe if you read the trick you pay the 1 ki point for the forgotten trick then you also have to pay the Ki point(s) for the trick you want to remember making this a 2 ki point ability - not cheap in my opinionThat is my understanding, but combat trick does not cost ki.
The first time you use some abilities you don't have to use ki either. Smoke bomb comes to mind. The inclusion of "as normal" means that, as normal, you get one free usage of that ability per day before needing to pay ki for it.
At least that's how I see it.
I really like Forgotten Trick. It fits the theme of the class rather well. The monk should have something similar, though.
Media is full of scenes where the protagonist suddenly remembers learning a technique that he needs to overcome an obstacle.
I really like it, I just think that because it includes Combat Trick it has the potential for abuse.
I would love to see the Fighter have something like this (kind of like the Wild Card feats out of Iron Heroes)
How many Forgotten Tricks can I have active?
Can I use a Forgotten Trick to use all of the "this trick doesn't cost Ki the first time in a day" tricks for just the 1 Ki of the forgotten trick?
As i understand it, the words "you have to pay ki as normally" already suggest that it is limited to Ninja Tricks that cost ki. Perhaps you could include "Fast Stealth" and "Deadly Range" costing one ki point per round. "Remembering" the forgotten trick costs one ki point, activating it another one like normally (not counted the free use).So "remembering" a "Combat trick" should also cost a ki point. Ki points are very few and precious, so there is a fast reached limit to this.
Personally i wouldn´t allow this though. It´s kind of too overpowered.
The Ninja is surely known for versatility, but this should be accomplished in other ways.
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"you have to pay ki as normally"
You didn't really answer my question. Shall we say all Ki cost is paid.
The free one shots (first use a day) abilities have no cost the first use. That either means they can never be used (since they have no ki cost; which means they can never be used the first time to enable their use the second time) or they get a free first use that only requires the 1 ki from the Forgotten Trick.
You didn't answer my query about keeping two tricks active (both from Forgotten Trick)?
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Paying 0 Ki is still paying Ki normally.
So I take Forgotten Trick and I get an array of 1/day abilities that cost only 1 ki to use? (all the "free first use" abilities)
I ruled in my 13th level game that the first use of Forgotten Trick to use a "free once a day" ability used up the free use. So the second use of Forgotten Trick to use one considers that ability "used" for the day even tho it is the first use of the trick.
it seems like several of these issues (and more not mentioned in this thread) would be solved by getting rid of the "free once a day" mechanic... if that proves to be too big a nerf (which I doubt it would) you could always slightly increase the size of their ki pool.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Paying 0 Ki is still paying Ki normally.So I take Forgotten Trick and I get an array of 1/day abilities that cost only 1 ki to use? (all the "free first use" abilities)
I ruled in my 13th level game that the first use of Forgotten Trick to use a "free once a day" ability used up the free use. So the second use of Forgotten Trick to use one considers that ability "used" for the day even tho it is the first use of the trick.
Exactly how I read it. Which makes it more powerful than any rogue talent.
Forgotten Trick:Burn one ki, get smoke bomb, if you use smoke bomb again in those rounds, then you'd have to pay the cost.
Burn one ki again to get Feather fall 5 rounds later, you get one free use of that trick as well.
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Exactly how I read it. Which makes it more powerful than any rogue talent.That is how I read it also, but that doesn't mean I like that interpretation. Especially since I house rule away from it.
Can't blame you there. But I just have to point out how broken it is so someone will listen. :-)
"you have to pay ki as normally"You didn't really answer my question.
You didn't answer my query about keeping two tricks active (both from Forgotten Trick)?
"...that she does not know and can use that ninja trick for a number of rounds equal to her level. She must pay any ki cost associated with this trick as normal."
Using "forgotten trick" costs one ki, using something else is possibly free if its for first time that day or doesnt cost any ki, otherwise you need ki as mentioned in the trick you use.
But you can only use one "combat trick" because it counts as one inja trick. So what you described above is not possible, because you cannot remember the same "trick/feat" two times simultaniously.
If you can or cannot use "forgotten trick" several times simultanioulsy is not mentioned in the description. So its up to the GM.
Example:
Ichido the halfling ninja was cornered by an enemy. Normally he uses his slingstaff to snipe, but now he is in meelee. He just remembers he can use his slangstaff as a club. By using forgotten trick, he gains the Weapon Focus Club feat for a number of rounds matching his level, paying one ki for that. After some rounds, it doesnt look good for him. He would like to remeber "Dodge" via the same way too, but he cannot untill his first use of camobat trick has expanded or he replaces it, loosing the "Weapon Focus Club".
Using only one "Forgotten trick" at a time is not so broken i guess.
Some of the tricks also don´t allow a free use, like "Shadow clone".
But i would suggest get rid of the free use, stock up the ki pool and also drop "forgotten trick". Instead let the ninja have access to more tricks at the same time developing with level. And let "Deadly Range" and "Bleeding Attack" be like the rogue talents.
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Can't blame you there. But I just have to point out how broken it is so someone will listen. :-)
This ability is not broken. It is extremely taxing on the ninja's ki and takes up a valuable ninja trick slot. A ninja specializing in combat should not take forgotten trick because he needs to get other tricks that enhance his sneak attack, combat trick, ect first. Plus he needs all the extra ki he can get for extra attacks and invisibility. Sure every ninja may pick this up but more than likely past lvl 12 when necessary ninja tricks get sparse.
This trick is only for players who aren't comfortable with their own tactics or want to feel safe in that they have something extra up their sleeve.
Another vote for NOT broken. Those once per day free abilities aren't free if you have to spend ki to get them.
what about ninja's with high charisma mods? i ran a point buy system game, and had a ninja with a charisma mod of 5 and by the time he hit third level his ki pool was at 8... suddenly forgotten trick is very broken. granted, i was kinda stupid to let him have a charisma mod that high, but still kinda broken i think. i ended up having to only let him use forgoten trick a specific number of times per day.
You can´t kill monsters with forgotten trick and CHA mod of 5 in point buy means he lacks somewhere else. Anyway, how come 8?
Ki pool is 1/2 character level + CHA mod, so should be 6 there. On level 3 you normaly don´t have enhancements.
The RAW don't specify anything about stacking either. It merely states the ability lasts a number of rounds.
In theory, I could spend 1 KI, gain Smoke Bombs, spend another Ki, get Poison Bombs, and then spend a Third Ki to get Choking Bombs. So 3 Ki in one round to get a third tier Trick.
I've been toying with gaining Bleeding Attack in the first round, then adding Flurry of Stars so I can bleed a crowd.
Unless the idea is to burn through Ki rapidly, this should probably be clarified.
isn't it 6 Ki? one for each forgotten trick and another for each trick? not to mention it is three rounds because it is a swift action to use forgotten trick. which you only have one of per turn.
Well, by RAW you could read it like that. ITs nowhere stated that it takes a swift action to activate forgotten trick. But it says one trick, and not several. So in my opinion remembering feat chains is not possible. And it would be 4 Ki and the poison to use that, 3 for forgotten trick, one optional if its first use for the smoke bomb. Using smoke bomb is a standard action.
It definately needs some clarification.
Good point with bleeding a crowd, i will remember that^^
ITs nowhere stated that it takes a swift action to activate forgotten trick
It states all Ki tricks are activated by swift actions under the Ki pool ability.
En, found it. You are right. I always read that only in context to the powers that come with the Ki Pool, but since it mentions additional powers immediately after, it probably rules for everything that costs Ki until mentioned otherwise. Feather Fall is an immediate action and doesn´t make sense else while Darkvision takes a standard action.
Ah and now i remember again why its not possible to do what ashewyntr said. Ninja Tricks section states:
Unless otherwise noted, a ninja cannot select an individual ninja trick more than once.
So only one feat, only one rogue trick, only one combat trick, only one weapon focus. No feat chain. And i still think its not viable to use it more than once at a time.