| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is the skinny,
I'm preparing an upcoming campaign and a few players are interested in play the classic lawful good paladin.
So I'm encouraging them to pick an appropriate Golarion Deity..No Problem there...
But I mentioned that Paladin's should have a code of honor that they follow, then gave them a basic code as aguideline for their characters.
The players feel that the code is too restrictive and makes their character unplayable. I just don't see it.
Here is the code I drafted (Drawn heavily from the code of knighthood from "The Song of Roland" and Authrian legend.
1: Place your god above all else and maintain his temple.
You are to be a shining example of your god's philosophy.
Obey his words and enforce his will. Have faith at all times and encourage it in others.
2: Serve Your order with Valor and Faith.
Serve your order and trust that they will also support and guide you.
3: Protect the weak and the defenseless.
You must show the qualities of mercy and charity. Widows, orphans and the frail are all worthy to receive your aid and support.
4: Refrain from the wanton giving of offense.
Insults and bragging are beneath your station and hurt your honor. Cleanliness and hygiene are also very important. You should behave as a gentleman at all times.
5: Live by honor and for glory.
Do nothing to besmirch your honor. Seek glory whenever possible.
6: Despise monetary reward.
Accept no monetary reward for actions done in the name of your god or for your honor. Encourage those who offer to seek out your temple/order and donate to them or to charity.
7: Fight for the welfare of all.
Place the good of the people above yourself.
8: Obey those placed in authority.
Follow the laws of the land and those in charge as long as it does not contradict the temple doctrine.
9: Guard the honor of your fellows.
Help protect the honor of fellow paladins and knights. Do nothing that would place an undue mark on that honor.
10: Eschew unfairness, meanness & deceit.
Cruelty, injustice and lying are all tools of evil. You will have nothing of them. Fairness, kindness and the truth will always prevail. Speak the truth at all times.
11: Persevere to the end.
Always finish any endeavor you start. Never give up.
12: Never refuse a challenge from an equal.
Honor demands that you answer all fair challenges.
13: Never turn your back on a foe.
Bring the fight to a just conclusion, be it victory, death, defeat or surrender.
14: Honor a worthy opponent.
Do not dishonor or abuse an opponent who has honorably yielded or surrendered. Do not steal his possessions or show cruelty. Do not stay idle if others do these things. Keep the virtue of justice in mind at all times.
Do you see any problems with this?
Can you suggest any revisions or improvements if so?
IMO, seems more restrictive than the base one.
6) Seems to go against some others, and D&D in general.
A Paladin supports and defends Good and opposes Evil.
A Paladin is a Leader in righteous combat.
When it is necessary to fight, the Paladin will seek to guide and inspire his comrades, taking a forward position in the battle and facing the foe boldly. A Paladin does not hide from his foe or sneak about.
A Paladin is a Protector.
He will seek to prevent harm to the innocent and will place himself at risk in order to accomplish this if need be.
A Paladin is Just and works to promote and enforce Justice and the Law.
If a Paladin does not agree with a law, he must still respect it and should work to change it rather than disregarding it. The only exception to this is if the Paladin believes the law to be truly Evil. In this instance, the Paladin must follow the dictates of his conscience.
A Paladin is Honest.
He will not lie or otherwise seek to deceive a person. A Paladin does not cheat or seek to take unfair advantage in his dealings with others.
A Paladin is Loyal.
He does not betray his God, his liege-lord, his order, his family, or his friends.
A Paladin is Holy.
He seeks to do that which pleases his God in all manners of the Code, and knows that the purity of his soul has a profound impact on the abilities the Gods bless him with.
While it is not required that a Paladin worships Iomedae above other gods, he ignores the wishes of his patron God at his peril. Serving another God or Gods is possible for a Paladin provided that the path that he follows does not work against Good or Justice. It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark aspect since the goals of such are not in keeping with what is Good and Just.
|
One general suggestion I'd make about paladin's codes is to consider how the codes in other religions differ -- although both would be LG, and their codes would reflect that, paladins of Sarenrae and Abadar will differ significantly while still having much in common.
By considering what would be common between paladins of a range of deities (Iomedae and Torag of course, but also Abadar, Irori, Sarenrae, and Shelyn) you'll be able to work out what the core paladin tenets are in your campaign, and from their it becomes easy to create religin-specific codes.
Yeah, mostly what you'd expect from a Paladin. But #6 is a bit much. A tithe of 10% is adequate, IMO.
So your paladin must never retreat, must accept every challenge, and isn't allowed to have any magical items or money at all?
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
IMO, seems more restrictive than the base one.
6) Seems to go against some others, and D&D in general.
+1 on that.
I think the base code is pretty playable -- Pathfinder's version is even less restrictive than the 3.X version. I don't think I'd play a paladin with this one.
|
I think this code is great, although I will agree that switching #6 from refusing money to performing proper tithing is a good compromise. I Also agree with posters who say that people who choose different gods will have variations on their specific code, but that's worked out on a god to god basis. I think as a base template once you compromise on #6 it will be a lot better. Then a paladin of a more the ends justify the means type god may change #10 to do not rely on deceit rather than do not use at all etc. and so forth.
Using the prestige rules from the Faction Guide might help mitigate #6.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
6: Despise monetary reward.
Accept no monetary reward for actions done in the name of your god or for your honor. Encourage those who offer to seek out your temple/order and donate to them or to charity.
I think this is probably their issue with it.
As previously mentioned, I would suggest a tithe and possibly make use of the Prestige awards from the faction guide to offset the decreased money pool.
In my games I usually give the Paladin characters this code:
A knight is sworn to valor,
his heart knows only virtue,
his blade defends the helpless,
his might upholds the weak,
his word speaks only truth,
his wrath undoes the wicked.
Obviously you can substitute Paladin for Knight if desired.
(and yes, it's from Dragonheart for those paying attention :P)
Thanks to all who gave fair critisism.
I'm dropping #6 and #13 from the list and revising and clairifying the others.
As a DM I am not looking for ways to strip the paladin of his powers or put him in a catch 22 situation with no way out.
What I want to do is make sure that there is a code to follow and that the paladin is played as a holy warrior devoted to his beliefs, not just a game mechanic short cut to a fighter with smite powers.
6: Despise monetary reward.
Accept no monetary reward for actions done in the name of your god or for your honor. Encourage those who offer to seek out your temple/order and donate to them or to charity.
I think this is probably their issue with it.
As previously mentioned, I would suggest a tithe and possibly make use of the Prestige awards from the faction guide to offset the decreased money pool.
In my games I usually give the Paladin characters this code:
A knight is sworn to valor,
his heart knows only virtue,
his blade defends the helpless,
his might upholds the weak,
his word speaks only truth,
his wrath undoes the wicked.
Obviously you can substitute Paladin for Knight if desired.
(and yes, it's from Dragonheart for those paying attention :P)
I was trying to remember where I heard this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A knight is sworn to valor,
his heart knows only virtue,
his blade defends the helpless,
his might upholds the weak,
his word speaks only truth,
his wrath undoes the wicked.
+1
and also add "Death before dishonor!"
A knight is sworn to valor,his heart knows only virtue,
his blade defends the helpless,
his might upholds the weak,
his word speaks only truth,
his wrath undoes the wicked.
+1
also add "Death before Dishonor!"A paladins/Knights Code haven't to be a waterproof legal document, it's more about the feeling and the spirit - also the style.
So I would go with these code (or rephrase mine to fit more in this style)
1: You’re
2: stupid
3: if
4: you
5: play
6: a
7: paladin.
8: I’ll
9: punish
10: you
11: if
12: you
13: try.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love the slightly restricting code. I am always a paladin and i think this is more realistic. But 6. It should be
6:You will not ask for monetary rewards, but will accept them for your deeds.
Maybe unless you are helping the poor or something.
~Zendire
Don't change 13, do as cranewings said and don't put them up against tough guys in the beginning.
Post was from 2011, not sure if anyone's tuning in for commentary anymore. That said, I think its a little over the top.
As a DM I am not looking for ways to strip the paladin of his powers or put him in a catch 22 situation with no way out.
What I want to do is make sure that there is a code to follow and that the paladin is played as a holy warrior devoted to his beliefs, not just a game mechanic short cut to a fighter with smite powers.
This, I think, is the most important thing you should communicate - that you aren't making it your personal mission to code-f**k the paladin as quickly and frequently as possible.
I don't give a lot of code specifics to prospective paladin players, but I tell them that I want to see, maybe once or twice a session, that their code is causing them to do or not do certain things. I also try to give them in-world feedback, through commentary from NPCs, so they have an idea how I think they're doing.
I hate to see it when people apply the behavioral standards of present-day Europe to a violent fantasy world full of implacably evil nasties. Doesn't work very well!
Holy thread necro batman!
I thing the op's code straightjackets players into a s8ngle type of paladin. What if I want to play a judge dredd type paly?
The base paladin code is more than adequate, especially when you add in the extras from "Faiths of Purity".
I think just talking out the base and extended code with the player and each individual Paladin deciding what each aspect means for him personally.
Legitimate Authority is a good one. Simply being the lawful ruler may not be enough if he's evil. Some Paladins may seek a rebellion, while others may not.
Judge dredd is no lawfull good guy. He's just Lawfull neutral. He barely cares about the consequences of the Law, only about the following of the Law's Dictate.
Also I think that the rules should be written thusly that it's less paternal, as all statements apply to men. A true Paladin should not differentiate between man or woman but look at the individuals needs or the greater needs of the group.
Futhermore it's possible (although this is not very common)to worship and follow Abadar as a Paladin. For a paladin the bringing of law and order as well as civilisation in the form of settlements in rough areas is a holy task, as well as maintaining order in and around those settlements.
And since Lawfull Good priests of Abadar are allowed there should't be a problem for a paladin's order. Although the possibility of a Lawfull Evil cleric is also possible since Abadar (praise his name) is Lawfull neutral.
As a GM you can just taste the possibilities of putting your player Paladin to the test of Duty before Honor involving a Lawfull evil cleric of the Order of Abadar.
Yes I play a Paladin faithfull to Abadar in a Kingmaker campaign and it's a male Aasimar. But he was converted by a Female Paladin who questions his purpose in life. I almost got killed last friday by meeting two trolls with my party of 4 level 3 players. We used our entire arsenal of healing and spells in order to beat them. It's a good thing we were heading back to Oleg's and were nearly there anyway. It was the last chance at a random encounter after two weeks of traveling and never seeing any random encounters.
Ok i know that this post is more than 2 and a half years old but still i have to say the following:
1) Now we have deity specific oaths in the books faiths of purity and faiths of balance.
2) Not all paladins (in Golarion) serve at a churches paladin order, for example they might worship Serenrae and not be part of Serenrae's order of paladin's that means that they don't have to take the extra oaths for Serenrae's paladin's listed in faiths of purity.
Now to the oath the OP wrote, it's good to be used as a base template (with a few adjustments, mainly number 6)
Leo1925, please tell me where to find: the books faiths of purity and faiths of balance.
I cannot respond to the specific oaths mentioned in the books faiths of purity and faiths of balance, as I am unaware of these sources.
but about remark 2) It's correct that a paladin does not need to be a member of an order or even a certain faith. But it is possible and may open certain roleplaying hooks for a GM (or close perhaps).
In AD&D dragonlance campaign you had knights of solamnia that were basically paladin's on steroids, combining a fighter with a cleric. The thing that made them somewhat balanced (not really) was that they had a very strict poverty system where the order of knights determined what you were allowed to own. And that was basically 20 gold pieces (although the currency in Krynn was steel pieces). The order did provide the knight with armor and weapon, that were appropriate the the knights level.
It's possible for a paladin to follow rule 6 as long as the order then provides arms and armor. Paladin's would still get their equal share but would donate this share minus 20 gold to their order. But it shouldn't be mandatory to donate everything and not being able to defend yourself against evil as you cannot buy arms, armor and equipment.
I liked the suggestion that was made where the paladin should spend a percentage of his/her gained wealth to aiding others (not partymembers).
And it's simple to uphold as well. A GM could simply deduct that percentage of the paladin's share of the treasure automatically or roleplay it.
@Snowleopard
Faiths of Balance and Faiths of Purity.
Yes i agree that it might open certain roleplaying hooks for a GM but iirc Jacobs has said that in Golarion there are more paladins that don't belong to an order than those that belong.
Yes i also thought of that (the church giving the paladin gear) but it can really become tiresome to have the paladin go to the church level after level after level...
The thing about giving a percentage of his wealth to help others is that it really skews the WBL and actually depowers the paladin (since he has less gear).
@Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan
Having paladin worshipers and having a paladin order are two very different things. But i guess that some of these lesser deities and Empyreal Lords might have paladin orders but they are very minor and have very few members where it simply isn't worth the space in the book, i believe that's the reason why we didn't get oaths for Irori's paladin order in faiths of purity.
Oh fyi the paladin order of Abadar is the second smallest paladin order in Golarion iirc.