Rogues should be able to take Ninja Tricks


Ninja Discussion: Round 1

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The Exchange

Almost all of the Ninja Tricks are just flat out better than the Rogue Tricks. With the exception of finding and disarming traps, anything a Rogue can do, a Ninja can do better.

Other than the Ki requirement, Rogues could still use most of these tricks once for free. Ya know, why not just make the Ki pool a Trick, and then have all Ki-dependent Ninja Tricks just require the Ki Trick?

I suppose it's a setting thing, but I'm a firm believer in giving classes the tools to fit any setting by expanding on their options. Making classes with names like Ninja, Samurai, and Monk, only make them less likely to be played.


I disagree. Rogues are not Ninjas, but Ninjas are also roguish.

Last thing I want to see is some cat burglar suddenly drawing power from his ki to break into someone's home. Unless he is multiclassed, of course.

Personally, I wish Paizo would stop pandering and just grow the cojones to make Ninja a base class. But that's just my opinion :D

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I support any idea to make rogues more powerful since they are grossly underpowered in my opinion.


The "Ninja" is nothing but a rogue archetype. I agree these new much more powerful rogue talents should be just that rogue talents as this class is simply a rogue.

No reason to not allow em, barbarians do not restrict rage powers so is there any reason other then "Your not Asian you can't be as cool as me?"


The name Ki pool for rogues doesn't make sense. Maybe they should add a rogue archtype with a "ki pool" like ability to rogue and give the ninja access to that ability. I figure the fact that reading the ninja write up would have every player want to play ninja instead of rogue, means that the traded in ability has to be bigger than evasion and trap finding.

The 3.5 ninja had sudden strike instead of sneak attack, which was sufficiently worse than sneak attack to make people still want to play the rogue. Alternatively, the "ki pool" rogue could get less sneak attack dice.


i will explain the ninja's balancing factors

there is nothing overpowered about the ninja. not only does it give up trapfinding and evasion but it gives up the ability to dump the universal dump stat due to it's monkish levels of multiple attribute dependancy. turns out the one stat that everyone wishes they could dump, the rogue can dump but the ninja cannot. in other words, charisma. and they are as greatly impacted in this regard as bards and paladins. extreme levels of multiple attribute dependancy alone is enough to justify giving seemingly more potent class abilities.

problem is, all these class abilities run off the same resource, the Ki pool. so it's not really a bunch of extra abilities but another thing. i would reccomend creating a rogue talent that gives access to the Ki pool if you feel disturbed by the assumed imbalance.

there is a design rule that states that any limited resource is to be more powerful than an unlimited resource by a favorable margin proportionate to the involved limitations. which is why wizard spells are the best spells in the game. the wizard only has so many slots per day, has the worst hit points and base attack progression and the lowest allowable amount of good saving throws. it also has the least amount of base skill points. it also has to prepare it's spells in advance, in exchange, the wizard gets most of the best arcane spells in the game and gets intellegence based spellcasting.

the ninja ki pool abilities are nowhere near as powerful as wizard spells. but they follow that same design philosophy. they are limited resources and are thus entitled to be stronger than Trapfinding/evasion because of the daily limit. trapfinding/evasion are unlimited use resources. and they require no action to activiate. the ninja also suffers from higher levels of multiple attribute dependancy. another excuse to give it seemingly more potent abilities. especially since that extra attribute they depend on is one ethat everybody wishes they could dump if they had a good mechanical reason to do so. a problem with a class designed to have charisma pull a sizable portion of the weight. these guys have one dumpstat less, but it was the ideal universal dumpstat they lost, which costs them a greater deal of attribute points than a normal rogue.

just as a ninja may look better than a rogue during the 15 minute adventuring day, so too does the barbarian look better than the fighter under such circumstances.

The Exchange

Razz wrote:
I disagree. Rogues are not Ninjas, but Ninjas are also roguish.
Ninjas are rogues, but not all rogues are ninjas.
Quote:


Last thing I want to see is some cat burglar suddenly drawing power from his ki to break into someone's home. Unless he is multiclassed, of course.

So you don't mind seeing a cat burglar using a form of magic as long as he has the ability to do so? A cat burglar is not a class, but a description of someone who, regardless or class, breaks into buildings with the stealth of a cat.

Quote:


Personally, I wish Paizo would stop pandering and just grow the cojones to make Ninja a base class. But that's just my opinion :D

Making a whole ninja class is pandering. Classes should be kept generic so that they get the most use. When people see classes that are called things like "ninja", they automatically relegate them to the rarely used category of oriental adventures.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:


problem is, all these class abilities run off the same resource, the Ki pool.

Not all of them.

A number like Bombs, Wall Climber, and Deadly Range are free and several others are 1/day for free.

Quote:
the ninja ki pool abilities are nowhere near as powerful as wizard spells.

Good, because otherwise they would be really unbalanced. The comparison is to Monk or Rogue abilities. Period. They can do fancy stuff where they DO use the ki pool, but all of them don't. And they shouldn't be notably more awesome than Monk ki abilities.


IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.


Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.


Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.

Is not MAD at the level of the monk but is more MAD than the standard Rogue. This is my point.


Kaiyanwang wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.
Is not MAD at the level of the monk but is more MAD than the standard Rogue. This is my point.

Oh sure, more MAD than the Rogue, but not more so than something like the Paladin.


Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.
Is not MAD at the level of the monk but is more MAD than the standard Rogue. This is my point.
Oh sure, more MAD than the Rogue, but not more so than something like the Paladin.

Yeah, was the comparison with the Rogue my point.

Is more than that, maybe - paladin can pimp will save through charisma, as an example.


I personally believe that the primary thing that's making the ninja completely outclass the Rogue right now is the ninja trick Forgotten Trick.

Forgotten trick gives you every trick for 1 ki point per use.

Eighth level I have 4+ ki points and a bunch of tricks. Ki points fuel some of my abilities, and in the meantime, Forgotten Trick gives me... limited usage on every single rogue talent, combat feat and ninja trick.

Forgotten Trick -> Combat Trick -> Improved Trip/Disarm/Feint, or Combat Trick for other feats like Lunge or Step Up.

Just feels goofy.


i still find nothing wrong with it.

you are blowing ki points for a temporary combat feat.

similar stuff includes 8th level war domain clerics and the heroics spell in 3.5 spell compendium which did the exact same thing.

maintaining multiple attributes is hard. and by losing one of the only true dump stats you had hurts you. especially when searching for other dump stats comes with more signifficant penalties. you cannot just dump strength. you need it for carrying capacity and potentially power attack. you cannot dump wisdom, you need it for will saves and a variety of useful ninja skills, cannot dump int, you need the skill points, cannot dump con, too little hp to work with and you cannot dump dex either, ac and initiative are important as well. giving the ninja an ability keyed off of charisma is basically taking away points the class can ill afford in a point buy game. i would recommend instead keying it off of wisdom.


I'm not sure why people are so hung up on the names of class abilities and ... well classes in general. When I wanted to make a ninja I just took my rogue and played him like a ninja. When I wanted to make a pirate, I took my rogue, and played him like a pirate.
Saying who should be able to use what because of a class name or class ability seems counter-productive and frankly, silly to me.
So you don't like the name "Ki Pool". Well, take your "ninja" and give him a new spanking "Luck Pool" or "Skill Pool" or what ever you feel matches the theme you're trying to portray, use your imagination for goodness sakes!
Arcane Tricksters concepts have been out since day one and the thought of having your cat burglar draw on his "ki pool" to break into a home doesn't sit well with you, then perhaps you should reconsider refluffing it and/or just plain avoiding the class.

Personally, I like luck based characters and it'd be fun to play a guy who through sheer luck and circumstance manages to "infiltrate" a building by accidentally falling through the (now known) tilting window and landing silently on his feet completely stunned about the entire situation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.
Is not MAD at the level of the monk but is more MAD than the standard Rogue. This is my point.
Oh sure, more MAD than the Rogue, but not more so than something like the Paladin.

Beg pardon? The Paladin is one of the classes who successfully has been rid of MAD, IMO. STR/CON/CHA is doable, even with 15 points. Unless you are one of the people who thinks "18 or bust!", of course.


magnuskn wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.
Is not MAD at the level of the monk but is more MAD than the standard Rogue. This is my point.
Oh sure, more MAD than the Rogue, but not more so than something like the Paladin.
Beg pardon? The Paladin is one of the classes who successfully has been rid of MAD, IMO. STR/CON/CHA is doable, even with 15 points. Unless you are one of the people who thinks "18 or bust!", of course.

Apparently I forgot the change to Paladin spells.

Then yeah, they need to work on not creating MAD classes after the few attempts to get rid of MAD on old classes.


From a game balance point of view, I absolutely agree rogues should be allowed to choose ninja tricks that don't rely on a ki pool.

There's no argument I can think of, outside of a purely thematic one, that could suggest otherwise.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

IMHO, people seriously understimate the MADness of the Ninja.

Not being able to dump Cha could hurt.

You forget that the Rogue/Ninja doesn't really need Str.
Is not MAD at the level of the monk but is more MAD than the standard Rogue. This is my point.
Oh sure, more MAD than the Rogue, but not more so than something like the Paladin.
Beg pardon? The Paladin is one of the classes who successfully has been rid of MAD, IMO. STR/CON/CHA is doable, even with 15 points. Unless you are one of the people who thinks "18 or bust!", of course.

Apparently I forgot the change to Paladin spells.

Then yeah, they need to work on not creating MAD classes after the few attempts to get rid of MAD on old classes.

Yeah, the Monk stands out as the only class left in Core which has MAD issues. The new classes seem to be fine so far. As I said in another thread on this sub-forum, the Ninja is fine with Dex, Con, Cha as his main stats and doesn't need a fourth to be playable.


Though that pigeonholes the Ninja into finesse weapons where the Rogue is only benefited by it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Generic Villain wrote:

From a game balance point of view, I absolutely agree rogues should be allowed to choose ninja tricks that don't rely on a ki pool.

There's no argument I can think of, outside of a purely thematic one, that could suggest otherwise.

Thematics are what roleplaying is all about. The conceit about Ninja is that they DO come from different backgrounds, much more secretive ones. Without that sepration, the Ninja class might as well not exist at all.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

LazarX wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:

From a game balance point of view, I absolutely agree rogues should be allowed to choose ninja tricks that don't rely on a ki pool.

There's no argument I can think of, outside of a purely thematic one, that could suggest otherwise.

Thematics are what roleplaying is all about. The conceit about Ninja is that they DO come from different backgrounds, much more secretive ones. Without that sepration, the Ninja class might as well not exist at all.

So Ninja get cool stuff because they have an accent.

Why can't a western rogue come from the same backgrounds, being renouned as snipers, using alchemy to appear and disappear and other things?

I had a 2e rogue who came from a secretive community where psionics were common (by luck he had a couple Wild Talents). Does that make him a ninja?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I say call them rogue talents, but add a ki pool requirement for some of them (or if you are a rogue without a ki pool you can use it once per day). This has the added bonus of making the rogue/monk multiclass very interesting as well.


I remember somewhere James was saying its a good chance Rogues will be able to take some ninja tricks anyway.....so what is the issue is it you just don't like that there are more than one instance that the word "ninja" shows up?

Liberty's Edge

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havoc xiii wrote:
I remember somewhere James was saying its a good chance Rogues will be able to take some ninja tricks anyway.....so what is the issue is it you just don't like that there are more than one instance that the word "ninja" shows up?

No, it's that it makes support for the Ninja in future publications more problematic. If they're Rogue Talents, then ther's no problem but if some (but not all) Rogue Talents are also Ninja Tricks then every future Rogue Talent is going to have to specifty it's also a Ninja Trick. This means fewer Rogue talents as they'll also have to give the Ninjas something. For an overhyped archetype, that's too much additional work needed to support it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Paul Watson wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
I remember somewhere James was saying its a good chance Rogues will be able to take some ninja tricks anyway.....so what is the issue is it you just don't like that there are more than one instance that the word "ninja" shows up?
No, it's that it makes support for the Ninja in future publications more problematic. If they're Rogue Talents, then ther's no problem but if some (but not all) Rogue Talents are also Ninja Tricks then every future Rogue Talent is going to have to specifty it's also a Ninja Trick. This means fewer Rogue talents as they'll also have to give the Ninjas something. For an overhyped archetype, that's too much additional work needed to support it.

Exactly in all future releases that have rogue talents, you have to either also have ninja tricks, or define some of the rogue talents as also ninja tricks. Otherwise the ninja is a pretty stagnant class in the future. The Samurai got around it by saying that all Samurai orders are also Cavalier orders and that Samurai can take Cavalier orders.


Agreed there is simply no need to have what amount to two sets of rogue talents. Nothing is lost by making them rogue talents, but keeping them separate just to make the ninja feel more special is a bit much.

I will eat word count and take away from the rogue class for no reason. Then you get into "It this a ninja trick or a rogue talent" debates, a distinction that really should not matter at all.

The ninja is a rogue archetype, it should use rogue talents, just like barbarian archetypes do not have unique rage powers other barbarians can never take. It is just needlessly complex and messy.


So we should give rogues abilities it can't use because it requires the ki pool? Wouldn't it just be better to keep it separate?

Yes I like the ninja no I am not trying to get the ninja something special just because he is Asian actually curious on this subject.


Why shouldn't he be able to use them? He can mimic most of them anyhow, although the ninja's powers are outright better.And no it would not be better to keep an arbitrary wall between "cool mystic talent" and "less cool non mystic talents" They already barrow heavily from the rogue talent list, stealing a good portion anyhow.

Paul Watson covered some of the support issues and Justin Franklin already covered a very easy fix. This is indeed an unneeded completion that frankly comes off as the ninja must be cooler then anyone else, just because.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
havoc xiii wrote:

So we should give rogues abilities it can't use because it requires the ki pool? Wouldn't it just be better to keep it separate?

Yes I like the ninja no I am not trying to get the ninja something special just because he is Asian actually curious on this subject.

Nothing would stop the Rogue from multiclassing with Monk to get the Ki Pool, and then have access to those that require it. Also there are at least a few tricks that can be used once per day without the ki pool.


I forgot those pesky monks :) ok I could see that working. Also I suppose then ninja could choose any rouge talent as well correct?


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Cartigan wrote:
Though that pigeonholes the Ninja into finesse weapons where the Rogue is only benefited by it.

Well, there has been an argument made that you can make a perfectly viable Ninja with low dexterity and high strength, due to Shadow Clone and the invisibility trick. It certainly sounds feasible.

Also ( not directed at Cartigan ), am I the only one who perceives that there are 4-5 guys who absolutely hate that there will be oriental-themed classes and are responsislbe for the vast majority of the negative feedback for the class?


Yes, there would be only rogue talents. One list, not two. It is better for everyone.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Yes, there would be only rogue talents. One list, not two. It is better for everyone.

I agree that Ninja tricks should just be called what they are: Rogue Talents--and they should be available to all rogues, regardless of archetype/alternate class. Those talents that require ki would be limited to either ninjas, or rogues who gain ki through multi-classing. This would make the Ninja feel more an an alternate class (which it is supposed to be), and less like a new base class (which is appears to be). After all, Samurai can take Cavalier orders and vice-versa--the same versatility needs to be allowed for the Ninja/Rogue.


Really the ki based powers could be once a day with extra uses being allowed with the ki pool. This would allow everyone to use them, but allow the Ninja more use out of them.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Really the ki based powers could be once a day with extra uses being allowed with the ki pool. This would allow everyone to use them, but allow the Ninja more use out of them.

Sounds fair enough.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I also think that ninja tricks should just be rogue talents. I'm ok with the ones with Ki requirements being useless unless a rogue multi-classes into Monk. It does seem kind of pointless to reprint the basic rogue talents just because they've been given a new name (combat trick, weapon finesse, etc). Whatever they decide to do in Ultimate Combat, I will house rule my game to combine the abilities.

Certainly the abilities need to be balanced mechanically. Ki pool using ones can be slightly more powerful due to the resource cost.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Yes, there would be only rogue talents. One list, not two. It is better for everyone.

better for everyone but the ninja, all you've done is give rogues "ninja powers", so the actual class is barely different and entirely unnecessary.

If you want a western style ninja, then well... be a freaking ninja. You don't have to be a rogue to be western, be a ninja and fluff it differently. just because the class is called "ninja" doesn't automatically make every single one eastern.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Shadow_of_death wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Yes, there would be only rogue talents. One list, not two. It is better for everyone.

better for everyone but the ninja, all you've done is give rogues "ninja powers", so the actual class is barely different and entirely unnecessary.

If you want a western style ninja, then well... be a freaking ninja. You don't have to be a rogue to be western, be a ninja and fluff it differently. just because the class is called "ninja" doesn't automatically make every single one eastern.

That's what the Ki Pool is for. How many non-ninja rogues have a Ki Pool? Hint: only those with 4 levels of Monk. Or perhaps a feat. Why shouldn't a rogue be able to get a climb speed? I can see plenty of rogue types it would apply to.

By making them separate abilities we waste precious word count repeating the basic abilities that both will be getting either way.


deinol wrote:


That's what the Ki Pool is for. How many non-ninja rogues have a Ki Pool? Hint: only those with 4 levels of Monk. Or perhaps a feat. Why shouldn't a rogue be able to get a climb speed? I can see plenty of rogue types it would apply to.

By making them separate abilities we waste precious word count repeating the basic abilities that both will be getting either way.

if your only making one list then the rogue will be getting a ki pool, otherwise you still need two lists.

Word count is easy to fix just by stating in their entry what is a trick and what is a talent and what is both (all repeats from original rogue list will just be listed in ninja class)


Shadow_of_death wrote:


better for everyone but the ninja, all you've done is give rogues "ninja powers", so the actual class is barely different and entirely unnecessary.

Stuff ninjas have that rogues don't: assorted weapon proficiencies, poison use, a ki pool, the no trace ability, the light steps ability, and the hidden master ability. That's a pretty huge difference right there.

Shadow_of_death wrote:

If you want a western style ninja, then well... be a freaking ninja. You don't have to be a rogue to be western, be a ninja and fluff it differently. just because the class is called "ninja" doesn't automatically make every single one eastern.

I agree, you don't have to be a rogue to be western, and not every ninja has to be eastern. That's why a ninja can pick up rogue talents - the two classes are similar in many ways, and so practice similar techniques. By the same turn, there's no reason why a rogue living in Tian Xia shouldn't be able to pick up a few ninja abilities.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
The "Ninja" is nothing but a rogue archetype.

That's pretty much my take on it. I also can't escape the thought the gunslinger is a fighter archetype, and the samurai is so obviously a cavalier archetype that it doesn't come close to meriting the full-class treatment.

Lantern Lodge

Also remember everyone that this is just the playtest, who is to say that their wont be a way for the rogue to pick up ninja stuff in the actual book. The playtest is just supposed to give us an idea of what some of the core pieces of the book are going to be, in this case the three alternative classes, and isn't everything that is going to be within the actual product.

Remember that the APG playtest only gave us access to the six classes and didn't show us any of the variant class abilities, new feats, etc. that were in the rest of the book.

So in the end I am pretty sure that they will be giving the rogue more love in the book than in this playtest, including ways to make your rogue more ninja like and vise versa.


Generic Villain wrote:


Stuff ninjas have that rogues don't: assorted weapon proficiencies, poison use, a ki pool, the no trace ability, the light steps ability, and the hidden master ability. That's a pretty huge difference right there.

I agree, you don't have to be a rogue to be western, and not every ninja has to be eastern. That's why a ninja can pick up rogue talents - the two classes are similar in many ways, and so practice similar techniques. By the same turn, there's no reason why a rogue living in Tian Xia shouldn't be able to pick up a few ninja abilities.

If you mix talents rogue gets a ki pool (otherwise it is still two lists) that's one difference gone. Poison use is in a rogue archtype so you dont need ninja for that (another difference gone). they both have assorted weapon proficiencies. so that leaves us with no trace, light steps, and a capstone ability.

That is barely an archtype, let alone an alternate class.

A rogue living in Tian Xia should not be able to pick up ninja tricks, because if they could they wouldn't be ninja tricks, in other words why did you specify Tian Xia? If they werent abilities associated with a certain training that is obviously only supposed to be given to the ninja class

Edit: +1 to the post above this


Shadow_of_death wrote:

[

better for everyone but the ninja, all you've done is give rogues "ninja powers", so the actual class is barely different and entirely unnecessary.

Where to start on this? The "class" is an archetype, paizo forced the ninja tricks in to try and make it not an archetype. As it is now the Ninja archetype is 799 words. The only thing that justifies it as anything but is trying to make Rogue tricks no longer rogue tricks.

It is still cool and will get more support if it does not have to fight the rogue for supplement space. And why should it be the one archetype ever to not allow other archetypes to use class talents? Not even the samurai does this. It is far from unnecessary. You just want it to not be what it is.

It has nothing to do with the class name and your argument is purely based off name alone. Show me a single reason other then "It is a ninja" why it should not use rogue tricks as it is a rogue?


Who is saying rogues will not get a ninja trick rogue talent, also Who is saying that some of the non Ki based abilities wont be rogue talents.


Actually, I'd like to see it go three ways.

Rouges get a "ninja trick" talent

There be a "extra ninja trick" feat for ninjas as there is an extra rouge talent feat for rouges

And there be a way that monks can obtain some of the ki based ninja talents. Since the ki pools stack, I think that the second point would do this.


Again, can anyone give me a reason other then ninja needs to be cooler, why these are anything but rogue talents?


First, I don't believe we need to make the ninja cooler.
For the rest that would depend on which talents we speak of.

For all those that don't use ki, yeah, they kinda are just like rouge talents. For all those that do use ki, they use a singular pool of occurances to dictate their frequecy and composition. That actually makes them closer to rage, lay on of hands, and (gasp) monk's ki abilities. Unlike some of those examples however, you don't get them all and have to select which ones you learn. If we wanted to make the rouge cooler and give it a "ki use" talent, that would work too.

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