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I love the idea of feinting attacks but it doesn't combine well with TWF. Sure, this could be intentional, but it's so bad (impossible) that I rarely see anyone ever feint. So here are three possibilities I can think of that would make it possible. All have further implications that I'd like some help exploring. Other suggestions are also welcome.
#1 - Regular Feint = move action (rather than an attack action), and Improved Feint = swift action (rather than a move action). Therefore, w/ Imp Feint, one could Feint swiftly, then TW attack as a full-round action.
#2 - Make a TW attack a single, simultaneous attack action rather than requiring a full-round action. Iterative TW attacks would still require a full round, just like other iteratives. This would also allow a single TW attack plus movement (and thus a regular RAW Improved Feint), but it would probably have LOTS of other repercussions. What would they be?
#3 - Make a feint a substitute attack, more like a combat maneuver. Instead of one of your attacks, you can feint to have opponents flat footed on the rest of your attacks. It would only work on attacks after the feinted attack, so you'd probably do it first, off your highest attack bonus. When you have only one attack, not much good. When you have 2 attacks or a TW attack, you'd feint and get one flat-footed attack. Once you get TW AND 2 attacks ( =3 attacks) or Imp TWF ( =4 attacks), sacrificing the first would be a pretty good deal. Still, it'd be your best attack, so there is a limiting factor.
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It's already possible with the core rules and the APG:
Fighter TWF Archetype:
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Greater Feint Feat
Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Feint the creature as a move action, than get two attacks as a standard action.
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I have trouble understanding how Greater Feint helps you; I've always thought of it as something you do for the rest of your party, especially if there is a rogue.
As far as Doublestrike, that's exactly what I'm suggesting for my #2 - only instead of making a 9th-level fighter ability, I was wondering what the ripples would be if that was just how regular TWF worked, for all classes and potentially at 1st level. The intended ones would be to allow TWF'ers a) to feint, and b) to move and use two weapons. But I also know there are a bunch of feats that can only be carried out as move or attack actions (and not full-round actions). TWF would now work with those, too. How bad would that be?
I love the idea of feinting attacks but it doesn't combine well with TWF. Sure, this could be intentional, but it's so bad (impossible) that I rarely see anyone ever feint. So here are three possibilities I can think of that would make it possible. All have further implications that I'd like some help exploring. Other suggestions are also welcome.
#1 - Regular Feint = move action (rather than an attack action), and Improved Feint = swift action (rather than a move action). Therefore, w/ Imp Feint, one could Feint swiftly, then TW attack as a full-round action.
#2 - Make a TW attack a single, simultaneous attack action rather than requiring a full-round action. Iterative TW attacks would still require a full round, just like other iteratives. This would also allow a single TW attack plus movement (and thus a regular RAW Improved Feint), but it would probably have LOTS of other repercussions. What would they be?
#3 - Make a feint a substitute attack, more like a combat maneuver. Instead of one of your attacks, you can feint to have opponents flat footed on the rest of your attacks. It would only work on attacks after the feinted attack, so you'd probably do it first, off your highest attack bonus. When you have only one attack, not much good. When you have 2 attacks or a TW attack, you'd feint and get one flat-footed attack. Once you get TW AND 2 attacks ( =3 attacks) or Imp TWF ( =4 attacks), sacrificing the first would be a pretty good deal. Still, it'd be your best attack, so there is a limiting factor.
I did create a `Pathfinderized` version of the old invisible blade prestige class that gave you the ability to feint as a swift action as its capstone. I can send it to you if you want it and maybe you can convince your DM.
I have trouble understanding how Greater Feint helps you; I've always thought of it as something you do for the rest of your party, especially if there is a rogue.
As written, feint and imp. feint only deny the target their dex against your next attack. Even if you could feint as a swift action, only the first attack of your full attack would benefit.
I have trouble understanding how Greater Feint helps you; I've always thought of it as something you do for the rest of your party, especially if there is a rogue.As written, feint and imp. feint only deny the target their dex against your next attack. Even if you could feint as a swift action, only the first attack of your full attack would benefit.
I think it is generally better to full attack both rounds barring special cases.
@ ThatEvilGuy
The whole intention behind the Invisible Blade (before that horrible, horrible errata) was to be able to feint once per attack. Why force somebody to take 5 levels of a class just to be able to feint once per turn slightly faster?
A better option (in my opinion) would be for the capstone to allow one free action feint as part of each attack made. (For quick play at the table, use two d20's of different colors, with one designated as the feint die. Compare the feint die to their CMB first, if successful take away their dex bonus to AC and apply sneak attack if it hit.)
This would be the case except that I basically built it to have something akin to Improved and Greater Feint with their weapons of choice BEFORE that ability. You've already mentioned what Greater Feint does so if you can feint as a swift action, it gives you the ability to feint once and, if successful, smack the crap out of your enemy.
Ahhhh, that is nice. Personally I don't really like the 'you feint once and your opponent loses dex for the whole turn' thing so much (personal quibble) but at least it's effective :)
It is, and it also removes the need to drop a dozen (or more) d20s on the table if you're a TWF who is full attacking some poor sod while hasted PLUS feinting every attack. You do it, or you don't, make yer rolls and move on.