paizo.com Recent Posts in Still-Water Meditant (Monk)paizo.com Recent Posts in Still-Water Meditant (Monk)2012-11-15T23:09:51Z2012-11-15T23:09:51ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Sam Zeitlinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#472011-02-04T15:44:11Z2011-02-04T15:44:11Z<p>So, first off, I’d just like to reiterate that the level of insight in this thread is really high – several times, I would wish I could say something, only to realize that someone I’ve never met had figured out what I was trying to do with a particular mechanic or decision (to say nothing of the many fair and accurate criticisms).</p>
<p>The inspiration for this class was the Duneyin from R. Scott Bakker’s Prince of Nothing series, a terrifying, isolated order of manipulative monks. They seem more suited to villainous dark fantasy, but I loved how they used their understanding of other people and themselves to be dangerous both on and off the battlefield. I decided to make a monk who focused on Wisdom/Sense Motive, and traded supernatural perfection of the body for the perfection of his mind and his understanding of other people. </p>
<p>A lot of the discussion in this thread centered around whether or not the archetype is overpowered or underpowered, and several people argued each side. The glib answer would be for me to say that this disagreement means that the class is balanced, but I don’t think it’s that simple. The balance of the Still-Water Meditant was hard to gage because he gives up passive abilities for active ones, physical abilities for social ones, abilities that allow you to affect the combat mechanics for ones that affect the game’s fiction. </p>
<p>I’m fairly confident that Ride the Current and Flow Like Water are balanced. They’re high enough level to discourage dips from other classes. More importantly, however, they have a hidden drawback that balances them: as Azmahael pointed out, they take a move action, meaning you can’t use them in the same round as flurry of blows. This serves to restrict them to occasional use in situations where they’re crucial. Although there are some monk builds that would take further advantage of these abilities, those builds would essentially forsake using flurry of blows – and effectively trading flurry for those two abilities is more than fair.</p>
<p>Read the Ripples and Quench Suspicions are trickier, and depending on the kind of game you like to play/run, I could see them being more or less powerful than what they replace. I do think that trading a passive ability that only comes into play sometimes for an active ability you can use whenever is a significant upgrade, which is why I made River Changes Course weaker than the ability it replaces (to compensate for the earlier abilities).</p>
<p>Finally, I wanted to mention some critiques that are right on the money.</p>
<p>Read the ripples needed a duration – I would say it lasts for as long as you remain concentrating while looking at the target’s face. </p>
<p>Replacing Still Mind was unfortunate; I knew it, I did it anyway, and I deserved to get dinged for it. All the other low-level abilities scaled, though, which made them much stronger than Read the Ripples; I couldn’t find a cleaner solution in the end.</p>
<p>Nicholas Quimby and Matt Goodall's point about the DC on Quench Suspicions is well-taken, it should scale like a normal class ability.</p>
<p>In response to Quandry, the reason the charm effects are Sp instead of Su is so that they don’t ignore spell resistance. I agree that it reads oddly. The power bump is probably minor enough that it could be changed, though it makes the effect quite a bit better against high-level fighty types. </p>
<p>Lastly, I really like Neil’s suggestion for replacing River Changes Course. Using combat maneuvers instead of attacks of opportunity might be too strong, since some of the combat maneuvers then grant further attacks of opportunity themselves if you go far enough down the feat tree (trip). If that turns out to be unbalanced, maybe something like “a number of times/day equal to your wisdom modifier, after an opponent strikes at you and misses in melee combat, you may use a combat maneuver against that opponent as an attack of opportunity.”</p>
<p>Thanks again to everyone who took the time to read and comment!</p>So, first off, I’d just like to reiterate that the level of insight in this thread is really high – several times, I would wish I could say something, only to realize that someone I’ve never met had figured out what I was trying to do with a particular mechanic or decision (to say nothing of the many fair and accurate criticisms).
The inspiration for this class was the Duneyin from R. Scott Bakker’s Prince of Nothing series, a terrifying, isolated order of manipulative monks. They seem more...Sam Zeitlin2011-02-04T15:44:11ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Sam Zeitlinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#462011-02-01T22:44:15Z2011-02-01T22:44:15Z<p>Now that the gag order and voting is over, I just wanted to thank the posters in this thread for their kind words and also for the very well-thought-out criticisms. And, of course, everyone who voted for me!</p>
<p>If I have some time after I get a draft of my Round 3 entry together, I'll post a bit about my design decisions and some criticisms that hit home.</p>Now that the gag order and voting is over, I just wanted to thank the posters in this thread for their kind words and also for the very well-thought-out criticisms. And, of course, everyone who voted for me!
If I have some time after I get a draft of my Round 3 entry together, I'll post a bit about my design decisions and some criticisms that hit home.Sam Zeitlin2011-02-01T22:44:15ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Kenneth.T.Colehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#452011-01-31T22:17:25Z2011-01-31T22:17:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sam Zeitlin wrote:</div><blockquote> <b>Still-Water Meditant (Monk)</b> </blockquote><p>NOTE: I read all archetypes before voting, but didn't get all comments posted before voting. I'm now finishing my comments.
<p>It's probably not fair, but as I've had such little experience with Monks, I really just don't feel I can give this one a proper analysis. </p>
<p>I'm not keen on the idea that any character can read someone else's surface thoughts at will (30 seconds is short out of combat) without any limit to the number of times per day. I think that should have been limited more.</p>
<p>Ride the Current: I like that. This really would be a cool ability for any class. Would make a nice feat.</p>
<p>Ready an Action, by its nature, should always be stated ahead of time.</p>
<p>But, compared to other Monk abilities...I just don't know.</p>
<p>Good job otherwise,</p>
<p>Ken</p>Sam Zeitlin wrote:Still-Water Meditant (Monk)
NOTE: I read all archetypes before voting, but didn't get all comments posted before voting. I'm now finishing my comments. It's probably not fair, but as I've had such little experience with Monks, I really just don't feel I can give this one a proper analysis.
I'm not keen on the idea that any character can read someone else's surface thoughts at will (30 seconds is short out of combat) without any limit to the number of times per day. I think...Kenneth.T.Cole2011-01-31T22:17:25ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Ziv Witieshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#442011-01-30T21:47:04Z2011-01-30T21:47:04Z<p>Sam, I really like this concept. I'm not a big fan of monks in general, but they do seem very appropriate for archetypes, and I like that you've built up a distinct, individual discipline as your archetype. It's well-themed and well-written; that's a really great start.</p>
<p>My personal commentary rubric focuses mostly on concept and theme; I have less to say on mechanics and balance, and I leave those to wiser forumgoers than I.</p>
<p><b>Resonance</b>
<br />
<i>Is the concept a cohesive, identifiable archetype? Do I understand the concept? Is it colorful, interesting, innovative?</i></p>
<p>Yes; this grabbed me at once. I really liked the idea of a monk discipline that focused on understanding other people - very appropriate, definitely missing from the existing disciplines, and with exciting color and roleplay potential.</p>
<p><b>Implementation</b>
<br />
<i>Does the implementation of the archetype do justice to the concept? Can the archetype character do the type of things we'd expect him to? </i></p>
<p>Fairly well, I thought. Certainly you've given flavored justifications for the particular powers you've chosen (I was somewhat bemused by Neil's missing that slow fall isn't particularly appropriate for a monk who reads the people around him). You mix between combat abilities based on predicting others' attacks, and the enchantment spell-like effects. All fit the theme very nicely.</p>
<p><b>Playability</b>
<br />
<i>Would players want to play this archetype? Would this character archetype have a place in a game? Will the archetype's unique flavor be evident in actual gameplay?</i></p>
<p>That last question is the one I'm a bit concerned about. Though all your abilities have justifications in your described discipline, I'm not sure how many of them demonstrate it, making its flavor felt in the game itself. A lot of the combat abilities could as easily represent a monk who is extremely quick and flexible, for example. The spell-like abilities, I'm concerned, might not come into play early or often enough for the Meditant to be the go-to guy for charms and suggestions. </p>
<p>OTOH, the coolness of the concept and the solid abilities should be enough to ensure that this archetype is at least as good for playing this type of character as playing a regular monk would be. </p>
<p><b>All in all</b>, I like the concept a lot, and I think you've implemented it very nicely. I'm concerned that the flavor might not trickle into the game as much as might be liked, but that's a tough requirement, and you've at very least made some sturdy inroads even to that.</p>Sam, I really like this concept. I'm not a big fan of monks in general, but they do seem very appropriate for archetypes, and I like that you've built up a distinct, individual discipline as your archetype. It's well-themed and well-written; that's a really great start.
My personal commentary rubric focuses mostly on concept and theme; I have less to say on mechanics and balance, and I leave those to wiser forumgoers than I.
Resonance
Is the concept a cohesive, identifiable archetype? Do I...Ziv Wities2011-01-30T21:47:04ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Ian Eastmondhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#432011-01-30T01:27:19Z2011-01-30T01:27:19Z<p>This archetype has my vote, and out of the 5 archetypes that I voted for I think I enjoyed the way the mechanics and the flavor of this one "flowed" together most of all ;-). </p>
<p>Also, I think the name is cool, and there's all sorts of juicy campaign ideas that this archetype inspires. I really hope that you advance to Round 3 and that we get to see more of your designs!</p>This archetype has my vote, and out of the 5 archetypes that I voted for I think I enjoyed the way the mechanics and the flavor of this one "flowed" together most of all ;-).
Also, I think the name is cool, and there's all sorts of juicy campaign ideas that this archetype inspires. I really hope that you advance to Round 3 and that we get to see more of your designs!Ian Eastmond2011-01-30T01:27:19ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Joe Wellshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#422011-01-30T01:21:00Z2011-01-30T01:21:00Z<p>I like this. The mechanics and what swaps for what probably need a second pass, but the flavor is delish and it's pretty solid overall.</p>I like this. The mechanics and what swaps for what probably need a second pass, but the flavor is delish and it's pretty solid overall.Joe Wells2011-01-30T01:21:00ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Nicolas Quimbyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#412011-01-29T20:42:37Z2011-01-29T20:42:37Z<p>I want to steal Flow like Water now and run it through some playtests (which will probably happen since I love oneshots anyway). My guess is that it's not as powerful as people think, but it certainly looks fascinating (and a little unpredictable) in its effects on the game.</p>I want to steal Flow like Water now and run it through some playtests (which will probably happen since I love oneshots anyway). My guess is that it's not as powerful as people think, but it certainly looks fascinating (and a little unpredictable) in its effects on the game.Nicolas Quimby2011-01-29T20:42:37ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Steven Helthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#402011-01-29T20:19:16Z2011-01-29T20:19:16Z<p>I don't think you should have an ability require '30 seconds'. A full round action seems sufficient. If it provokes attacks of opportunity. A minute if you really want to limit its combat use. How do you adjucate 30 seconds in combat? Five rounds? Who would choose that ability?</p>
<p>I agree with Neil that giving up still mind and not giving the class nondetection is a whiff. I think that read the ripples ought to allow a save instead. Too many monsters and characters don't have Bluff as a class skill. For most monsters, a Will save, even a sad one, is better than an opposed Bluff check. Reading surface thoughts is too powerful to nake so easy. Maybe as is, reading NPC attitudes is better.</p>
<p>Any ability named 'river changes course' ought to be just studly. But yours isn't. As Neil suggested turning provoked attacks of opportunity into combat maneuvers is a great idea: you attempt to read the ripple, and when someone charges, you, you interrupt your reading to reposition him. When you know you have a great, thematic ability name, meditate on that name and develop an ability that sings it. Like Ring the Golden Bell. The ability and the name are perfect together.</p>
<p>A lot of missed opportunity here, but still maybe worthy of my vote given the weakness of the round.</p>I don't think you should have an ability require '30 seconds'. A full round action seems sufficient. If it provokes attacks of opportunity. A minute if you really want to limit its combat use. How do you adjucate 30 seconds in combat? Five rounds? Who would choose that ability?
I agree with Neil that giving up still mind and not giving the class nondetection is a whiff. I think that read the ripples ought to allow a save instead. Too many monsters and characters don't have Bluff as a class...Steven Helt2011-01-29T20:19:16ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Matt Goodallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#392012-07-18T23:29:55Z2011-01-29T14:38:37Z<p>Formatting: I’m really not a fan of 20', it’s old school and not clear, also you are so close to the word count that this seems like a cheap way of losing a word. I know that Jim Groves said to use words if you need them last round, but being able to cut unnecessary words from a manuscript is something a superstar/freelancer has to be able to do.</p>
<p>Read the Ripples: not a big fan of unlimited detect thoughts at 3rd level, seems a bit better than still mind. Especially as an (Ex) ability!</p>
<p>Ride the Current: A funny feint action, but I get it where it is coming from.</p>
<p>Quench Suspicions: I really want this to have a scaling DC as you are giving up a lot of abilities (and good abilities) for it. 10 + ½ class level + Wisdom modifier is fine by me. That is uses <i>ki</i> is a good limiter.</p>
<p>Flow like Water: a bit too good because the PC can respond to anything. I actually like that you tried to make readying easier. This is what I don’t like about readying:</p>
<p>‘I ready to hit the wizard if he casts a spell’. </p>
<p>The wizard then withdraws, or attacks, or does something else and some GMs make the poor PC lose their readied action because the specific trigger didn’t occur.</p>
<p>I think a limit of readying to interrupt a maximum number of creatures (probably based on your Wisdom modifier) would have been a good limit. That way, if an enemy you can perceive does something, you can react, but if a hidden foe fires an arrow, you can’t interrupt that.</p>
<p>This archetype is fairly well balanced and has some interesting and innovative abilities. Your writing is good, good luck in the voting.</p>Formatting: I’m really not a fan of 20', it’s old school and not clear, also you are so close to the word count that this seems like a cheap way of losing a word. I know that Jim Groves said to use words if you need them last round, but being able to cut unnecessary words from a manuscript is something a superstar/freelancer has to be able to do.
Read the Ripples: not a big fan of unlimited detect thoughts at 3rd level, seems a bit better than still mind. Especially as an (Ex) ability!
Ride...Matt Goodall2011-01-29T14:38:37ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Khelekhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#382011-01-29T03:40:10Z2011-01-29T03:40:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Azmahel wrote:</div><blockquote><p> 3. Quench Suspicion
</p>
3.1
<br />
the ability to jump really far, immunity to diseases and poisons.
<br />
Simply that you give up 3 abilities shows that wahts coming is going to be powerful
<br />
3.2
<br />
Spend 1 Ki point to cast a 1st level spell ( Problem, DCs for Class abilities are normally 10+1/2level+Attribute, the 11+ is supposed to be another limiting factor.)
<br />
normal uses for Ki include +4 AC vs 1 attack, there is a 1st level spell that gives +4 AC for 1 hour per level.
<br />
This lasts for 1 hour per level and for one day per level at later levels ( which means that you can have many, many instances of this abilities in effect at the same time and still have a full ki pool for adventuring.
<br />
also you can use your favorite stat instead of charisma and affect other types of creatures, approaching a 4th level spell for 1 Ki point.
<br />
—- </blockquote><p>Your break down seems good. I do, however, believe that you missed something in the section above:
<p>1. the S-WM can only have one charmed creature at a time. at least that was my read. </p>
<p>2. I figured the 11+ and 14+ were based on the equiv spell levels rather as limited factors. but either way... </p>
<p>So are these various abilities balanced? I would generally say yes. but you were right when you said: </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote> If you are playing this archetype in a pure H&S campaign you would have tough luck though, but even then you wouldn't have lost much). </blockquote><p>But that is true of sooo many of the published archetypes as well. that they have a time and place, or rather a campaign type.
<p>seems that people who think this is too powerful might commonly heavy social game, where those who think it is too weak might be playing exploration/hack and slash games. Supposition certainly, but maybe an interesting thought experiment. </p>
<p>Certainly in my current campaign the S-WM would have used their abilities more than a typical monk would have used theirs. on the other hand I have had a monk be the only one to survive a very long fall (never let the rogue lead the way). so. that's a thing.</p>Azmahel wrote:3. Quench Suspicion
3.1
the ability to jump really far, immunity to diseases and poisons.
Simply that you give up 3 abilities shows that wahts coming is going to be powerful
3.2
Spend 1 Ki point to cast a 1st level spell ( Problem, DCs for Class abilities are normally 10+1/2level+Attribute, the 11+ is supposed to be another limiting factor.)
normal uses for Ki include +4 AC vs 1 attack, there is a 1st level spell that gives +4 AC for 1 hour per level.
This lasts for 1 hour per...Khelek2011-01-29T03:40:10ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Azmahelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#372011-01-28T22:47:43Z2011-01-28T22:47:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Khelek wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Azmahel wrote:</div><blockquote>Mechanical Execution (ME): 2, Now the big thinking comes to bite you in the back. Detect thoughs quasi at will at level 1? hour or even day long charm effects? But at least you are trying to balnace it back in ( with giving up multiple abilities for those) </blockquote><p>Are you saying that these abilities are too strong for their level? It is curious since about XX%• of the post claim it is too powerful and XX%• seem to say it is too weak.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Of course they are circumstantial, but assuming a setting where you can actually use the abilities ( If you are playing this archetype in a pure H&S campaign you would have tough luck though, but even then you wouldn't have lost much).
<p>I'm gonna give this a bit more in-depth analysis, since you asked.</p>
<p>1. Read the ripples:
<br />
1.1 what you are giving up:
<br />
A +2 bonus on a certain sub-set of spells an effects ( which wouldn't see much use in a purely combat focused campaign)</p>
<p>1.2 what you are getting:
<br />
the ability to effectively emulate a 2nd level spell at will. There are some differences though:
<br />
- :this ability takes longer to set up ( 30 sec vs. 18 sec)
<br />
- :you get less information ( Int scores)
<br />
- :you only target one creature at a time.
<br />
+: The target doesn't get a save, only a skill check against your most important skill
<br />
+: it is more discreet than casting a spell
<br />
+: Anything that makes you immune to magical mind reading leaves you still vulnerable to this.
<br />
——
<br />
Is this an equal trade?</p>
<p>2. Ride the current:
<br />
2.1:
<br />
the ability to reduce falling damage, if there is a wall nearby. (helps with all kinds of pit traps)
<br />
2.2
<br />
Improved feint as a bonus feat + the ability to use your favorite skill instead of bluff, and the target is defending with bluff. (Normally Sense motive is a defense and bluff an attack skill, so this is switching stuff up again)
<br />
Not too valuable, because as a monk you will want to flurry as often as possible, but if combined with the weapon adept and perfect strike this becomes more powerful.
<br />
——
<br />
is this an equal trade?</p>
<p>3. Quench Suspicion
<br />
3.1
<br />
the ability to jump really far, immunity to diseases and poisons.
<br />
Simply that you give up 3 abilities shows that wahts coming is going to be powerful
<br />
3.2
<br />
Spend 1 Ki point to cast a 1st level spell ( Problem, DCs for Class abilities are normally 10+1/2level+Attribute, the 11+ is supposed to be another limiting factor.)
<br />
normal uses for Ki include +4 AC vs 1 attack, there is a 1st level spell that gives +4 AC for 1 hour per level.
<br />
This lasts for 1 hour per level and for one day per level at later levels ( which means that you can have many, many instances of this abilities in effect at the same time and still have a full ki pool for adventuring.
<br />
also you can use your favorite stat instead of charisma and affect other types of creatures, approaching a 4th level spell for 1 Ki point.
<br />
—-
<br />
Is this an equal trade?</p>
<p>4. Flow Like Water.
<br />
4.1 the ability to spend ki to heal yourself a bit
<br />
4.2 The ability to bank a standard action to use it whenever you want for whatever you want, possibly interrupting other actions, like spellcasting, or even attacks (e.g. with disarming)
<br />
——
<br />
Is this an equal trade?</p>
<p>...
<br />
gonna stop here. I think you get where I'm coming from. But in the end you have to answer these questions for yourself. Sam surely tried to limit these effects in power and recognized their potential. And I'm glad he went with the idea , because otherwise he would have needed to dump a great concept.</p>
<p>This is why I chose my scoring scheme. it rewards high values more than it punishes mediocre ones. if Sam had ditched his idea for a 3/3/3 one he would have lost points. (3/3/3 would have been a score of 5.196)
<br />
Rpg Superstar is about taking risks and dealing with the consequences, and at least for me great ideas count more than mechanical balance. (the latter can be fixed with additional editing. try to edit a great idea into ok rules)</p>Khelek wrote:Azmahel wrote:Mechanical Execution (ME): 2, Now the big thinking comes to bite you in the back. Detect thoughs quasi at will at level 1? hour or even day long charm effects? But at least you are trying to balnace it back in ( with giving up multiple abilities for those)
Are you saying that these abilities are too strong for their level? It is curious since about XX%* of the post claim it is too powerful and XX%* seem to say it is too weak.
Of course they are circumstantial, but...Azmahel2011-01-28T22:47:43ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Khelekhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#362011-01-28T22:11:47Z2011-01-28T22:11:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Azmahel wrote:</div><blockquote>Mechanical Execution (ME): 2, Now the big thinking comes to bite you in the back. Detect thoughs quasi at will at level 1? hour or even day long charm effects? But at least you are trying to balnace it back in ( with giving up multiple abilities for those) </blockquote><p>Are you saying that these abilities are too strong for their level? It is curious since about XX%• of the post claim it is too powerful and XX%• seem to say it is too weak.
<p>•tried to count %'s but I guess I can not see all the posts while writing a post. so just say some go one way and some of the other! :)</p>
<p>It seems like these are circumstantial. powerful when not fighting, but you have to lead them around with only carrots. since asking them to do things too against their nature breaks charm. </p>
<p>How do suggestion and charm work together(from the spell perspective)? are the completely separate? do they feed on each other... I have never run into a combined effect before, so was not sure there was a rule.</p>Azmahel wrote:Mechanical Execution (ME): 2, Now the big thinking comes to bite you in the back. Detect thoughs quasi at will at level 1? hour or even day long charm effects? But at least you are trying to balnace it back in ( with giving up multiple abilities for those)
Are you saying that these abilities are too strong for their level? It is curious since about XX%* of the post claim it is too powerful and XX%* seem to say it is too weak. *tried to count %'s but I guess I can not see all...Khelek2011-01-28T22:11:47ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Azmahelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#352011-01-28T21:07:35Z2011-01-28T21:07:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sam Zeitlin wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <b>Still-Water Meditant (Monk)</b>
</p>
</blockquote><p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Disclaimer: My ranking scheme for this round consists of given marks form 0 to 4 in the following three categories:
</p>
1.Is the Archetype conceptually interesting?
<br />
2.Are the mechanics of the Archetype interesting?
<br />
3.Are the mechanics of the Archetype balanced and well executed?
<br />
But rather than simply adding up the marks for a final score I'm gonna interpret them as a point in 3-dimensional space and the final mark of your submission will be the length of the vector between the origin and this point.
<br />
Note that my ranking doesn't need to directly correspond with my votes, as other factors like: Strength of your item submission, mood, my horrorscope and other random stuff still factor in. Also note that this scheme is highly subjective and only mirrors my perception and opinion about your archetype submission.</span></p>
<p><b>Conceptual Mojo (CM):</b> 3, A social monk. In a very monk-y way. I like this, even if for me the name evokes something different and I have to focus on expecting social fu stuff.</p>
<p><b>Mechanical Mojo (MM):</b> 4, Reading Minds from faces, predicting movements, adapting to the flow of combat, Ki mind manipulation,... You are certainly thinking big with this one. And the abilities don't just fit the theme, they enhance it.
<br />
<b>Mechanical Execution (ME):</b> 2, Now the big thinking comes to bite you in the back. Detect thoughs quasi at will at level 1? hour or even day long charm effects? But at least you are trying to balnace it back in ( with giving up multiple abilities for those)</p>
<p>Final note: Maybe there is a better name for this archetype, because I keep thinking of stuff other than social fu when I read the name. Otherwise this is a great, superstar concept, that suffers from a bad case of hard to balance due to big ideas.</p>
<p>Total Score: 5.385</p>Sam Zeitlin wrote:Still-Water Meditant (Monk)
Disclaimer: My ranking scheme for this round consists of given marks form 0 to 4 in the following three categories:
1.Is the Archetype conceptually interesting?
2.Are the mechanics of the Archetype interesting?
3.Are the mechanics of the Archetype balanced and well executed?
But rather than simply adding up the marks for a final score I'm gonna interpret them as a point in 3-dimensional space and the final mark of your submission will be the...Azmahel2011-01-28T21:07:35ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Russ Taylorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#342011-01-28T08:37:32Z2011-01-28T08:37:32Z<p>I probably should like this one more than I do. I can't put my finger on it, but something just isn't gelling, perhaps the luck of the draw in being the 32nd archetype I've read in this contest. I'm on the fence as to whether or not to throw one of my extra two votes it, which does mean I'm rooting for you to go on in the contest.</p>
<p>I think part of it is that I feel like the water concept demands more reversals and the like.</p>I probably should like this one more than I do. I can't put my finger on it, but something just isn't gelling, perhaps the luck of the draw in being the 32nd archetype I've read in this contest. I'm on the fence as to whether or not to throw one of my extra two votes it, which does mean I'm rooting for you to go on in the contest.
I think part of it is that I feel like the water concept demands more reversals and the like.Russ Taylor2011-01-28T08:37:32ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Nicholas Heroldhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#332011-01-28T03:41:01Z2011-01-28T03:41:01Z<p>I like this one. The trade of defensive abilities for a suite of focused offensive ones works for me. Specifically, abilities that require the sacrifice of full attacks, the traditional monk's bread and butter. So it's definitely not a traditional monk, but it's an interesting one. The above comparison to Jedi knights is not a bad one.</p>
<p>This archetype has me wanting to play it, and not in a "oh, this is so broken I will rule all" sort of way. It will be getting my vote.</p>I like this one. The trade of defensive abilities for a suite of focused offensive ones works for me. Specifically, abilities that require the sacrifice of full attacks, the traditional monk's bread and butter. So it's definitely not a traditional monk, but it's an interesting one. The above comparison to Jedi knights is not a bad one.
This archetype has me wanting to play it, and not in a "oh, this is so broken I will rule all" sort of way. It will be getting my vote.Nicholas Herold2011-01-28T03:41:01ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Echo Vininghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#322015-05-05T20:16:23Z2011-01-27T22:19:22Z<p>I figured a bit more detailed comment would be ideal, so here you are.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p><b>Read the Ripples (Ex)</b>
</p>
At 3rd level, the Still-Water Meditant can read a humanoid or monstrous humanoid’s surface thoughts from up to 20' away by observing his face. This takes 30 seconds and requires an opposed Sense Motive check against the target’s Bluff. This ability replaces still mind.</blockquote><p>This seems a little weird. I don't really like the ability.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p><b>Quench Suspicions (Sp)</b>
</p>
At 5th level, the Still-Water Meditant can use <i>ki</i> to manipulate others, as if using the spell <i>charm person</i>.</blockquote><p>I didn't really like this one, either. I think I'd definitely prefer more water-themed martial arts abilities instead of these weird influencing options.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p><b>Flow Like Water (Ex)</b>
</p>
At 7th level, when the Still-Water Meditant readies an action, she need not specify what action she will take, or its trigger.</blockquote><p>This one is awesome. I think it's one of the best things here, and is indicative of how to make a monk that flows like water.I figured a bit more detailed comment would be ideal, so here you are.
Quote:Read the Ripples (Ex)
At 3rd level, the Still-Water Meditant can read a humanoid or monstrous humanoid’s surface thoughts from up to 20' away by observing his face. This takes 30 seconds and requires an opposed Sense Motive check against the target’s Bluff. This ability replaces still mind.
This seems a little weird. I don't really like the ability. Quote:Quench Suspicions (Sp)
At 5th level, the Still-Water...Echo Vining2011-01-27T22:19:22ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#312011-01-27T21:38:55Z2011-01-27T21:38:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sam Zeitlin wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <b>Still-Water Meditant (Monk)</b>
</p>
The Still-Water Meditant seeks enlightenment through studying human nature. The monk learns to discern a man’s true thoughts from his face and predict his movements from his body, while she herself strives to be like still waters: placid, remote, and unknowable. </blockquote><p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Disclaimer:
</p>
You should know the drill by now, but in case you missed it the first time round, Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus: [Spoiler omitted] ;) </span> </p>
<p><b>Would you want this person sitting next to you as a guest at a formal evening dress dinner party? </b>
<br />
Oh yes, precisely because this sort of smug, self-obsessed aesthetic needs taking down a peg or two.
<br />
His sort tend not to attend dinner parties though. They like to sit in remote mountain coves, staring at tarns. Whilst this does make them quite tricky to hunt down it also means (since they tend to do it in isolation) that once a demonic seductress <i>does</i> have one located she can round up some friends and go shatter their inner peace. </p>
<p><b>How effective a flower-picker does this person seem likely to be?</b>
<br />
Probably quite effective, but getting him to actually go and do it is likely to be a nightmare. If you're not an arch-deceiver, he's going to probably see right through any trickery a succubus initially tries to use which means he will then expect you to harass and annoy him for the traditional forty days and nights, before he will be prepared to fold and agree to go fetch flowers in exchange for some quiet. I've played it a couple of times, but the game isn't usually worth the candle. </p>
<p><b>Could you hire one person like this to do a better job than one other trained mercenary and/or to do the jobs of two (or more) other trained mercenaries?</b>
<br />
By the standards of narcissistic aesthetic recluses, this one is trained packs a meaner punch than most, at relatively little loss to his overall efficiency.
<br />
But trying to get one to do what you want is a problem. See my comments above regarding flower-picking. And forget any but the most perfunctory of attempts at recruitment if there's any kind of clock running on getting something done. </p>
<p><b>Other comments?</b>
<br />
Given their mind-bending powers some experienced still-water meditants are offered alliances by the Church of Asmodeus, who quite like having additional minions around able to enslave hapless innocents to their master's will. Any such alliances which do form tend to be volcanic and not to last though, given the fundamental philosophical incompatibilities between the church of Asmodeus (a deity of (<i>hell</i>)fire) and an order of monks who study water. </p>
<p><b>Desirability: </b>
<br />
Hireable, but seldom worth the bother. </p>
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Further Disclaimer:
<br />
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (with half an eye on Lord Orcus) would like to clarify that mortal voters should probably rely on more than just her own (impeccable) assessments in making up their minds on how to vote. Thank You. </span></p>Sam Zeitlin wrote:Still-Water Meditant (Monk)
The Still-Water Meditant seeks enlightenment through studying human nature. The monk learns to discern a man’s true thoughts from his face and predict his movements from his body, while she herself strives to be like still waters: placid, remote, and unknowable.
Disclaimer:
You should know the drill by now, but in case you missed it the first time round, Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus: [Spoiler...Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)2011-01-27T21:38:55ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Jason Nelsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#302011-01-27T20:11:44Z2011-01-27T20:11:44Z<p>I like the flavor of this one and your writing is evocative and descriptive. I was a little sketchy about the deny-Dex ability, especially since it seems like it would fulfill the criteria for Medusa's wrath, and the open-ended ready-action was a little more than I would like, but I don't think either went entirely out of bounds.</p>
<p>The charm/suggestion stuff is all right, and I can connect the dots enough to make them fit the theme, though I don't think they're as natural a fit as the rest. </p>
<p>Overall, I like it. </p>
<p>Congrats on making it to round 2, and best of luck!</p>I like the flavor of this one and your writing is evocative and descriptive. I was a little sketchy about the deny-Dex ability, especially since it seems like it would fulfill the criteria for Medusa's wrath, and the open-ended ready-action was a little more than I would like, but I don't think either went entirely out of bounds.
The charm/suggestion stuff is all right, and I can connect the dots enough to make them fit the theme, though I don't think they're as natural a fit as the rest.
...Jason Nelson2011-01-27T20:11:44ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Mark Thomashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#292011-01-27T04:24:10Z2011-01-27T04:24:10Z<p>An entire archetype built around a Bruce Lee quote? Nice.</p>
<p>Anyone who knows me knows I have a soft spot for the monk and this is both thematic and well written. I agree with Niel that some of the substitutions seem inappropriate with the loss of <b>still</b> mind being completely baffling.</p>
<p>Given those less than optimal substitution choices it is the inspired view that impressed me and ultimately garnered my vote.</p>
<p>Good work!</p>An entire archetype built around a Bruce Lee quote? Nice.
Anyone who knows me knows I have a soft spot for the monk and this is both thematic and well written. I agree with Niel that some of the substitutions seem inappropriate with the loss of still mind being completely baffling.
Given those less than optimal substitution choices it is the inspired view that impressed me and ultimately garnered my vote.
Good work!Mark Thomas2011-01-27T04:24:10ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Nick Bolhuishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#282011-01-27T04:11:32Z2011-01-27T04:11:32Z<p>This is great. Even if meditant is not word, it's clearly someone who meditates, I saw that right away. The flavour here is through the roof, and all the abilities have such great names. I like the idea of denying dex bonus, but having undeclared readied actions seems a little abuseable to me. I would be inclined to multiclass with something that can make huge use of this, like crippling ranged attack or targeting the right low level spell to rob boss monsters of their action every turn. I also think the charm and suggestion are not the best fit. That said I think this is excellent work, with amazing style which will make me fear you in future rounds.</p>This is great. Even if meditant is not word, it's clearly someone who meditates, I saw that right away. The flavour here is through the roof, and all the abilities have such great names. I like the idea of denying dex bonus, but having undeclared readied actions seems a little abuseable to me. I would be inclined to multiclass with something that can make huge use of this, like crippling ranged attack or targeting the right low level spell to rob boss monsters of their action every turn. I...Nick Bolhuis2011-01-27T04:11:32ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Starglimhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#272011-01-27T04:00:06Z2011-01-27T04:00:06Z<p>Lost a post. Only Submerge Spirit really works for me as a design. Otherwise, this shows a consistent pattern of trading varied defensive abilities for a single offensive concept, which makes me wonder whether the author really likes the monk as written at all. </p>
<p>Flow Like Water basically takes the meditant out of initiative and the action economy unless he wants to take a full attack. You just don't get to find out your enemy's intentions before taking your action every round.</p>
<p>It's too .. slippery. I can't support this sort of design to advance.</p>Lost a post. Only Submerge Spirit really works for me as a design. Otherwise, this shows a consistent pattern of trading varied defensive abilities for a single offensive concept, which makes me wonder whether the author really likes the monk as written at all.
Flow Like Water basically takes the meditant out of initiative and the action economy unless he wants to take a full attack. You just don't get to find out your enemy's intentions before taking your action every round.
It's too .....Starglim2011-01-27T04:00:06ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Cthulhudrewhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#262011-01-27T01:24:23Z2011-01-27T01:24:23Z<p>Don't like the name (and I question whether meditant is even an archaic term or if it is, as I suspect, just a newly coined common use term), but I really like the concept and the mechanics seem to fit very well with it. So it's got my vote.</p>Don't like the name (and I question whether meditant is even an archaic term or if it is, as I suspect, just a newly coined common use term), but I really like the concept and the mechanics seem to fit very well with it. So it's got my vote.Cthulhudrew2011-01-27T01:24:23ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Echo Vininghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#252015-05-05T20:16:23Z2011-01-27T00:39:43Z<p>I like your concept and some of the abilities granted. However, I think overall the mechanical execution was a little off. I'm going to give you a chance, though, because of how much I like your theme here. I hope you clean up your work a little for next round.</p>I like your concept and some of the abilities granted. However, I think overall the mechanical execution was a little off. I'm going to give you a chance, though, because of how much I like your theme here. I hope you clean up your work a little for next round.Echo Vining2011-01-27T00:39:43ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)Quandaryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#242011-01-26T23:17:47Z2011-01-26T23:17:47Z<p>I already said good job, great archetype here.
<br />
I disagree with comments saying this is `the mind control monk`, though I understand where that comes from.</p>
<p>Most of the abilities are based on Sense Motive, which isn`t `mind control` as much as Extraordinary extension of mundane senses, i.e. the Monk being in tune with the world so much; including others^ sentiments; that they can pull this type of stuff off. I see Quench SUspicions/Rivers Change Course in the same light, i.e. they ARE related/derived from the same focus as the Sense Motive powers... i.e. they work by the Monk being so attuned to his targets that he knows just what to say / how to manipulate them, which APPEARS as mind-control, but it`s really just finding the right bridge between the target`s mind and the monk`s intentions.</p>
<p>Of course, that clashes with QUench SUspicions/Rivers Change Course being (SP). I think they should either be (Ex) or (Su). I don`t see any reason in the archetype why they should start getting (Sp) powers rather than (Su) or (Ex)... And I don`t see any reason why Ex/Su abilities still can`t say `works like X spell` for convenience/balance sake, without relying on `magic` per se.</p>I already said good job, great archetype here.
I disagree with comments saying this is `the mind control monk`, though I understand where that comes from.
Most of the abilities are based on Sense Motive, which isn`t `mind control` as much as Extraordinary extension of mundane senses, i.e. the Monk being in tune with the world so much; including others^ sentiments; that they can pull this type of stuff off. I see Quench SUspicions/Rivers Change Course in the same light, i.e. they ARE...Quandary2011-01-26T23:17:47ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Still-Water Meditant (Monk)neonstormhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lr0v?StillWater-Meditant#232011-01-26T21:31:17Z2011-01-26T21:31:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryan Dancey wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<i>Name & Theme</i> (.5 point)
<br />
What's a "Meditant"? Did you mean "Mendicant"? Wikipedia says a Mediant is a musical notation. A Mendicant relies on others for donations. Neither seem to match the theme. I'm giving you half credit on the off chance that there's a common use word out there I don't recognize or you thought you were making up a word from scratch. Be careful!
<br />
</blockquote><p>Meditant is an uncommon and somewhat archaic word meaning 'one who meditates', but it has a clear derivation from the root word meditate or meditation, so I feel it will be easily intelligible.Ryan Dancey wrote:Name & Theme (.5 point)
What's a "Meditant"? Did you mean "Mendicant"? Wikipedia says a Mediant is a musical notation. A Mendicant relies on others for donations. Neither seem to match the theme. I'm giving you half credit on the off chance that there's a common use word out there I don't recognize or you thought you were making up a word from scratch. Be careful!
Meditant is an uncommon and somewhat archaic word meaning 'one who meditates', but it has a clear derivation...neonstorm2011-01-26T21:31:17Z