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PaizoCon 2014!

Grave Robber (Rogue)


Round 2 - Top 32: Create an archetype

Taldor RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka primemover003

Grave Robber (Rogue)
Everyone knows it's unwise to linger near lonely roadside graveyards after the sun goes down. For a grave robber, it's all in a nights work. While many grave robbers are no better than petty thieves, fencing trinkets and baubles unearthed by lantern light, few can argue their skill at sneaking past undead guardians to pilfer the treasures they protect. Hours spent breaking into forgotten crypts and accursed barrows has taught these rogues much about the abilities of the walking dead. Grave robbers are frowned upon by goodly faiths for disturbing the peaceful rest of the dead and loathed by evil cults who share the same haunts. Grave robbers walk a fine line between finding their fortunes or their deaths in a shallow grave.
Class Skills:The grave robber's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha). These replace the standard rogue class skills.
Mortician's Guile (Ex): When using the Bluff, Disguise, or Stealth skills against an undead creature, a grave robber gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his rogue levels (minimum + 1). This ability replaces trapfinding.
Elude Death's Touch (Ex): At 3rd level a grave robber develops the ability to shrug off the debilitating touch of undead creatures, giving him a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves against disease and paralysis and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against incorporeal touch attacks. These bonuses increase by +1 every three rogue levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). This ability replaces trap sense.
Soiled Soul (Su): At 4th level a grave robber's long exposure to desecrated soil and unhallowed sites grants him a +2 profane bonus on saves against negative energy effects, including the save to avoid permanent negative levels. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Cheating the Reaper (Su): At 8th level a grave robber with ability damage, ability drain, or negative levels from attacks by an undead creature can attempt to steal a portion of that energy back using a special Bluff check to feint the creature. Success on the check and the attack deals damage normally, however the grave robber may forgo some or all of his sneak attack damage dice to regain a point of lost ability damage, ability drain, or a single negative level per 1d6 sacrificed. The undead creature loses any lingering special benefits such as temporary hit points. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

Another treasure-seeking rogue archetype, only this one is much more specialized on grave robbing and a suite of abilities that hinders or protects from the undead. As such, I think you've gone a bit too niche with this design. You've traded out all of the rogue's trap-oriented abilities, which is likely a mistake, as plenty of tombs include traps just as much as undead. Also, the uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge could prove quite useful against undead (whether corporeal or incorporeal). So, I'm not completely sold on some of the choices you've made for replacement abilities.

The Mortician's Guile ability is completely useless against anything other than undead. While that might be okay for a campaign centered in the nation of Geb on Golarion, I don't know that you'll get as much mileage out of it as you would with trapfinding.

I'm also not a fan of the escalating dodge bonuses against incorporeal undead via the Elude Death's Touch ability. Dodge bonuses stack. Use them sparingly. But yours has the grave robber gaining a +6 dodge bonus at the highest level...and a similar bonus against disease and paralysis (apparently all forms of those effects)...all in exchange for: trap sense? I can see how you're following the way trap sense is worded, but it only works against traps. You're granting a Fortitude bonus vs. paralysis and all forms of disease along with a dodge bonus in combat. It's not the same thing.

I'm okay with the Soiled Soul negative energy protection, but I really don't like the Cheating the Reaper to feint and strike to siphon back the ability damage lost to an undead creature. It should rely on the steal combat maneuver or something if you were realistically going to go that route. I don't think you have to define it as a sneak attack imposed by a feint. And this is kind of the crowning mechanic of your design.

So, I'm just not sold on this one. It was a bold choice, just a little too narrow. I don't imagine it would be all that inspiring or fun to play unless you were very specifically running a grave robbing campaign in Osirion or someplace.

Thus, I DO NOT RECOMMEND this archetype design to advance to the next round.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Interesting idea.
In your second sentence, it should be night's work not nights work. Dang those possible plural possessives, they trip me up to (like New Year's Day vs. New Years' Day, argh!).

I somewhat agree with Neil that the Bluff and Disguise aspects of Mortician's Guile won't be particularly useful because most campaigns don't have undead in a non-combat scenario, but Perc and the feint aspect of Bluff are definitely useful. Overall I think this ability is viable--the player who wants a character like this would like the ability, even though it's not a combat ability. I also agree with Neil that replacing trapfinding is an awkward choice for an archetype that assumes the character is sneaking around in tombs and crypts, which tend to have traps in fantasy RPGs.

I'm fine with Elude Death's touch, it makes sense to me, and it would have been too weak of an ability if it only gave a bonus against undead-based diseases and undead-based paralysis.

The language on Cheating the Reaper is a little awkward and should be tuned up. It also should address what happens if the target undead is incorporeal and thus immune to sneak attack (in which case you'd "sacrifice" extra sneak attack damage at no cost). I also agree with Neil that this should be a steal maneuver rather than a feint (you could always say the Mortician's Guile bonus applies).

RECOMMENDATION: I DO recommend this archetype design for advancement in the competition.

CEO, Goblinworks

Total Points: 2 Points
Recommendation: Not recommended for advancement

Comments In Detail

Name & Theme (.5 point)
Name kind of matches the theme

Mechanics (.5 point)
If I was a grave robber there's no way I'd want to lose my trapsense or trapfinding features. That's just a horrible tradeoff.

The mechanics are basically sound and I really like the Cheating the Reaper mechanics (especially since they come so late and won't promote Lone Wolfing at the expense of the Cleric).

Awesomeness (0 points)
Not that awesome. Would rather play a Paladin, Cleric, or Rogue base class to do the same things.

Template (1 point)
Followed the template well.

Context (0 points)

You seem to assume that robbing graves implies a lot of contact with undead. However I would think that you'd want abilities like:

Finding hard to find graves
Deciphering inscriptions and Lore from headstones & tombs
Covering your tracks so nobody knows the bodies have been disturbed
Fencing the goods you loot without drawing undue attention

This archetype would be a better fit for a party charged with clearing out an area known to be infested with undead - something they're likely to do as a charge from a church or a town - they'll be heroes, not villains.

Paizo Employee Developer

An interesting choice, Scott. It's almost a rogue with favored enemy (undead). I'm intrigued.

The name is simple and evocative of what you're creating and there's no shortage of description in that opening paragraph. In fact, there's probably too much. It's all well written, but this is primarily a crunch assignment and you've used more words here than in any single alternate class feature, except maybe the laundry list of class skills. An archetype is not the place for prose; save that for fiction.

Like Sean and Neil, I would have kept in the trapfinding aspect of a rogue's cadre of abilities and found something else to swap out. I get the value of the benefits mortician's guile provides, but they come at too high a cost in this instance. Similarly with elude death's touch, this is clearly an applicable ability, but it continues the trend of nerfing the rogue's trap mastery, and I feel that there are better ways of getting these abilities in here.

Soiled soul is an interesting ability and I like it. Nice and simple. I would probably make it a bonus type other than profane, though.

And I must echo Sean's concern about cheating the reaper and creatures immune to sneak attack. Other than that, it's a fairly solid ability, though the three options for healing (ability drain, damage, and level drain) aren't even close to being equal. If the number of SA dice sacrificed scaled with the type of effect cured, maybe it'd be a little more balanced.

All things considered, though, this is a very strong entry, and one that would take minimal development time to polish into publishable quality. I RECOMMEND this archetype for advancement. Best of luck in the vote.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

I like the flavor text of it and I like the concept of the abilities. Cheating death should be a steal and it would be great. Dodge bonuses are tricky to give out, especially when you're trading up for something relatively uncommon (traps that attack AC/Reflex saves) vs. something relatively common (undead).

Ryan has it right, though, when he points out that grave robbing is about an awful lot more than just fighting undead. I like your theme, but I think your implementation is a bit too specialized in how it addresses that theme.

Congrats on making it into the contest, and best of luck!


I agree that removing Trap Sense doesn`t quite make sense,
ideally you could have kept that and found something else to switch out.
Cheating the Reaper was the only part that really didn`t work for me, but on the whole I think it works well and `knows it`s place` or `knows what it`s supposed to be doing` (as an Archetype).

Maybe not my #1 choice this round, but on the strength of your work last round, I have no problem voting for you to go into the next rounds... Good luck! You have my vote!

Star Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm torn on this one. When I first read the name, I thought- way too niche to be usable. But as I read the description and thought about it, I actually came around to the idea of this being a very workable and cool archetype- a step up from just a relic-hunter, because it recognizes the necessity for dealing with undead in the tombs it seeks to rob.

It lost me with trading out the trapfinding abilities, though, and the abilities get a little too focused on undead.

I still really love the concept, though.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka primemover003

Thank you judges for all the constructive criticism, I'm definitely taking it to heart. This round has been extremely challenging and I look forward to seeing everyone's impressions and comments. I also want to say good luck to my fellow contestants.


A cool concept for a horror game where abandoned crypts are the rule rather than the exception. I have the same beef with this one as the treasure seeker in some ways - you need to deliver something awesome if you're going to take away Uncanny Dodge. Cheating the Reaper isn't bad, though, and anyone who's fought dread wraiths or gotten ambushed by ghasts will tell you that Elude Death's Touch has definite value.

A narrow and focused concept, but well-executed for the most part.


I like the name and the idea of the theme.

I think there is too much introductory text.

I get that undead are associated with graveyards, but the overall effect of the abilities does not give me the feel of a graverobber.

While I lkie the name Cheating the Reaper, I don't like the effect of stealing back negative levels through a bluff action.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4 , Star Voter 2013 aka raidou

Scott, your Nightmare Boots were high-fashion in round 1. People really liked that concept. Your Grave Robber definitely looks to fill a niche not covered in depth by the APG; that of a delver who breaks into sealed tombs and makes his way past the walking dead to get to the prize.

grave robber wrote:
Mortician's Guile (Ex): When using the Bluff, Disguise, or Stealth skills against an undead creature, a grave robber gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his rogue levels (minimum + 1). This ability replaces trapfinding.

You've hit on an interesting theme for this archetype, and one that balances reasonably well. That said, in my opinion you can't be a tomb robber and give up trapfinding. This rogue archetype needs trapfinding more than most other rogue archetypes out there. Your whole deal is breaking into sealed, guarded crypts. You are not long for this world if you stink at the traps gig. If this archetype were more of an undead infiltrator (disguise yourself as undead, navigate through a zombie apocalypse to face down the lich-lord) I'd be happier with this ability.

grave robber wrote:
Elude Death's Touch (Ex): At 3rd level a grave robber develops the ability to shrug off the debilitating touch of undead creatures, giving him a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves against disease and paralysis and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against incorporeal touch attacks. These bonuses increase by +1 every three rogue levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). This ability replaces trap sense.

Good trade, and necessary. This I agree with more than the last ability. It balances well against trap sense and is a defensive ability very similar to what trap sense offers. Nicely done, and probably the ability with the best mix of theme and mechanics.

grave robber wrote:
Soiled Soul (Su): At 4th level a grave robber's long exposure to desecrated soil and unhallowed sites grants him a +2 profane bonus on saves against negative energy effects, including the save to avoid permanent negative levels. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

This is a little on the weak side. I think you could have added a negative level save bonus into Elude Death's Touch and still been balanced okay. Evocative name, however.

grave robber wrote:
Cheating the Reaper (Su): At 8th level a grave robber with ability damage, ability drain, or negative levels from attacks by an undead creature can attempt to steal a portion of that energy back using a special Bluff check to feint the creature. Success on the check and the attack deals damage normally, however the grave robber may forgo some or all of his sneak attack damage dice to regain a point of lost ability damage, ability drain, or a single negative level per 1d6 sacrificed. The undead creature loses any lingering special benefits such as temporary hit points. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

The name sells it. I like what this ability does mechanically and I like its name. I dislike the odd abstraction of ability damage into something transferable. But two out of three is okay. This is the thematic high point of the archetype. It's also the second entry I've read that specifically rides on a bluff/feint check instead of the more generic "when an undead opponent is denied its dexterity bonus to AC."

Scott, overall I feel this is a mid-tier entry. I think the grave/tomb robber archetype is a necessary one but the name itself isn't totally evocative. Your writing is solid; I found nothing jarring or difficult to understand here, but I don't think you mechanically fulfilled what this archetype should be capable of doing. It's sort of a grab bag of anti-undead defenses but doesn't take into account some of the other things rogues might need to do when specializing in crypt-cracking. I'll come back to this again before voting and give it another look to see if anything else stands out one way or the other.


I think it would have been cool to add an ability like this:

Buried Alive (Su): When the Grave Robber is reduced to negative HP he is automatically assumed dead by any assailant.

Or some sort of disease immunity from being around corpses.
Anyway, you are definitely in my secondary vote list.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

I like the suite of powers, but agree Trapsense and its kin are more important. Maybe a gutsy move like reducing sneak attack instead.

It is a good concept, just I feel the flaws are enough to keep it out of my top eight. Vrock on Scott, and if you don't make it to the next round, you'd better be back in the top 32 next year.


I like the idea of this archetype, but as everyone else has said before, I really don't think the abilities are worth trading in the rogue's trapfinding abilities. (Maybe if you allowed the option to take trapfinding and its ilk as rogue talents?)

In any case, this one's got my vote.

Grand Lodge Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

edit: OK, I see I'll have to review this a bit further, but Cheating the Reaper is still a mess and likely to tip it for me.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka primemover003

Thanks for the comments and support all! This is an absolute blast.

--Vrock the Vote!

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Hydro

It's been said, but yea, most grave robbers will find that finding traps is a lot more important than negotiation with undead. Most of these abilities are just too straightforward to really impress me (usable and appropriate, but not exciting). The exception being Cheating the Reaper, which was my favorite part. "GIVE ME BACK MY LEVEL, DANGIT!"

Thematically this brings me back to Monte Cook's Ptolus, though I think it would fit into a lot of fantasy cities with graveyards or necropolises (huge city on one side of the wall, sprawling necropolis on the other, and a booming market for bodies that drives people to cross it).

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

I don't think there is any shortage or place for this archetype to be used, especially in Ptolus, Waterdeep, or any other city-centric campaign. It's a nice niche, though I do agree that the loss of trap related abilities may draw potential players away from what you have to offer. It is very well written (with the exception of cheap the reaper which could have been clearer), and features clever ability names and mechanically strong focused rules use.

Nice Job

Qadira RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

I like this one a fair bit. A nice twist on tomb robbing, and a better execution of the genera; concept than some past 3E/3.5E prestige classes. Not much I'd tinker with. Mainly, I'd probably drop evasion instead of trapfinding (adjusting the levels of the abilities appropriately), and I would have found a way to squeeze in a bit more offense. I like the dodge vs. incorporeals, they aren't that common a foe so for me it isn't too big a deal that it's a stackable AC bonus.

I'm likely to vote for this one.

Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Nice job Scott, you created a tight theme and a fairly unique niche. One would expect this from clerics, rangers (FE: undead), or necromancers. kudos for making it a rogue. As above, mostly balanced. I think the name grave robber is synonymous with treasure seeker in most people's head, detracting from the cool anti-undead rogue abilities. That name is going to be the first part we all read of course. Be careful with it on later rounds (I expect you will get to later rounds of course :)

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 , Marathon Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka Demiurge 1138

I'd rather keep trapfinding. Traps are also present in ancient tombs and lonely crypts. Beyond that, though, this archetype is awesome. Perhaps I'm biased, as I've played a dedicated grave robber before. Cheating the reaper maybe should have used the steal mechanic, but it's such a fantastic (and hilarious) idea that I'm enamored of it anyway. "GIVE ME BACK MY LEVELS!"

I will be voting for this entry. It's not mechanically perfect, but the flavor is so good I want to see what's coming up in Round 3.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would have preferred if instead of creating a custom skill list you had developed a longer list of special abilities.


Scott Fernandez wrote:

Grave Robber (Rogue)

Everyone knows it's unwise to linger near lonely roadside graveyards after the sun goes down. For a grave robber, it's all in a nights work. While many grave robbers are no better than petty thieves, fencing trinkets and baubles unearthed by lantern light, few can argue their skill at sneaking past undead guardians to pilfer the treasures they protect. Hours spent breaking into forgotten crypts and accursed barrows has taught these rogues much about the abilities of the walking dead. Grave robbers are frowned upon by goodly faiths for disturbing the peaceful rest of the dead and loathed by evil cults who share the same haunts. Grave robbers walk a fine line between finding their fortunes or their deaths in a shallow grave.

Disclaimer:

You should know the drill by now, but in case you missed it the first time round, Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus:
Spoiler:
Fairness is an adjective applicable to hair coloration, balance is what a couple of mortals rapidly losing it on opposite ends of a plank pivoted on a rocky spire a couple of hundred feet above a slowly rising pool of molten basalt try to do, and logic is one of those things which you could swear is there when you rattle the piggybank but if anyone other than a demon opens it the contents turn out to be a couple of dead moths and a three week old shopping list.
;)

Would you want this person sitting next to you as a guest at a formal evening dress dinner party?
Are they the charming or the morose type? Did they remember to scrub the dirt out from under their fingernails? Are they appropriately attired and if they didn't buy the clothes, did they at least get them well-laundered to remove certain unmistakeable odours?
It depends from grave robber to grave robber whether you'd want one sitting next to you.
On the plus side though, they are often good fun for embarrassing any uptight types if certain topics of conversation come up...

How effective a flower-picker does this person seem likely to be?
It varies from individual to individual. The older they get, the more experienced with various furtive skills they get, but it becomes increasingly likely that any sense of romance or adventure has been crushed out of their souls by their chosen trade. And 'haunted' isn't always just a figurative term when it comes do describing the effects their work has had on them...

Could you hire one person like this to do a better job than one other trained mercenary and/or to do the jobs of two (or more) other trained mercenaries?
Probably not, no. My natural instincts regarding a situation with undead would be to get a paladin to carve a swathe of glorious destruction through them, ahead of paying someone to sneak around furtively. It's not as if grave robbers even have the specialised knowledge of dealing with traps which the more generally roguish type typically possesses.

Other comments?
Grave robbers can afford opportunities for providing distractions and diversions in some settings. Hire a couple of grave robbers to loot the tombs of half a dozen deceased former statesmen of a city and make themselves scarce, and the authorities may be so outraged at that that they don't notice or pursue the disappearance of a hunky noble knight for a month or two...

Desirability:
Ranges from snack to hireable depending on the personal qualities of individual grave robbers.

Further Disclaimer:
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (with half an eye on Lord Orcus) would like to clarify that mortal voters should probably rely on more than just her own (impeccable) assessments in making up their minds on how to vote. Thank You.


Scott Fernandez wrote:

Grave Robber (Rogue)

Disclaimer: My ranking scheme for this round consists of given marks form 0 to 4 in the following three categories:

1.Is the Archetype conceptually interesting?
2.Are the mechanics of the Archetype interesting?
3.Are the mechanics of the Archetype balanced and well executed?
But rather than simply adding up the marks for a final score I'm gonna interpret them as a point in 3-dimensional space and the final mark of your submission will be the length of the vector between the origin and this point.
Note that my ranking doesn't need to directly correspond with my votes, as other factors like: Strength of your item submission, mood, my horrorscope and other random stuff still factor in. Also note that this scheme is highly subjective and only mirrors my perception and opinion about your archetype submission.

Conceptual Mojo (CM): 3, first we had an Indy Jones rogue, now we have a lara croft rogue. Intriguing. But wait, it is not just a tomb raider, it is also an expert in dealing with undead. That integrates the real world trope very well into a fantasy setting. This really shows you put thought into the concept and have a feeling for the little details.

Mechanical Mojo (MM): 2, Bonuses on sneaking past undead (or faking being a Zombie), against incorporeals and negative energy all fit the bill very well and are reasonably flavorful, but at the same time you take other abilities away that are vital for a grave robber. So for everything cool you give, you take something that will be needed as much.

Mechanical Execution (ME): 3, here is the smart choice about taking away the trap related stuff and uncanny dodge: they are easily taken away without hurting the base rogue concept too much and are easily replaced by balanced abilities. Something you do well here, with the exception of cheating the reaper, this just feels wonky, and with it being the ability for which you did the most actual rulescrafting I'm not sure how comfortable you feel here. All the other abilities were pretty safe games.

Final note: Cool concept and fitting abilities, but sadly taking away from the (flavorwise) wrong parts of the rogue class.

Total Score: 4.690

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

A little too much flavor text, another ability might have been better than text that is probably going to get trimmed by an editor anyway.

Changing skills is fine, a grave robber needs Knowledge (religion).

I don’t like the name but Mortician’s Guile is a reasonable ability given 95% of the time it is going to be used with Stealth. I’d prefer a boost something to offset the ‘disable magical traps’ part of the trapfinding ability (but that’s a small thing).

I don’t mind the Elude Death’s Touch and the dodge bonus because it’s only against incorporeal touch attacks and they come up just as infrequently as traps, ok maybe slightly more frequently but this really only turns a ghost’s almost automatic touch attack, into something you now have a small chance to avoid. I would have liked a different approach to the disease and paralysis saves though, mostly because undead do a whole lot of other saving throw based things to you that I wouldn’t mind a bonus against.

Like others, I’m wary of losing trap sense/trapfinding but you have to trade something in an archetype. I do like the Cheating the Reaper ability as a concept.

There could be a better name for this archetype but a rogue that specializes against undead isn’t nearly as narrow a niche as many other archetypes in the Top 32.

Good luck, I’ve got a feeling that you have a reasonable chance of stealing into the Top 16 with your robber.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

I agree with everyone else about swapping trapfinding / sense, but what else are you going to swap? Evasion? I don't think so. You could start eating into the acquisition of rogue talents, I guess.

Anyway, I do like this. Pretty solid all around.


Good work... ON top of your awesome boots, I def. really want to see you in next round!

Osirion RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Steven T. Helt

You will definitely acquire some votes because it's a weak round and people like your wondrous item. Regarding this particular entry, it is really boring and doesn't have any new design in it. Some nonuses agaibnst undead, or a few of the things that undeas do., but then trading off other well-known risks. It's not a grave robber - graves haveother hazards. It's an undead fighter. But not a great one.

I recommend bigger ideas and something new. An archetype that simply replaced core class abiltiies with unimaginative abilties is not superstar.


Scott Fernandez wrote:
Grave Robber (Rogue)

Sorry, I just can't get past the concept on this one.

How does a Grave Robber fit into a campaign with other player characters?
How does a Grave Robber have varied adventures that continue to improve his grave robbing abilities at higher levels?
Why would a Grave Robber leave his lowly terrible job as a Grave Robber and still want to be a Grave Robber?

This concept just doesn't seem playable. It's an NPC concept.

A Crypt Thief? That's a good idea. Make it into an Archetype that combines your ideas above with those of the person who hunts out rare and valuable ancient artifacts and relics.

Just my thoughts,
Ken

Taldor RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka primemover003

Ok, so when I came up with the grave robber I consciously decided to stay away from your basic tomb raider, lara croft idea. The grave robber was aimed at rogues in horror based games, like the upcoming Carrion Crown AP. I thought more of an infiltrator, that would break into necropoli like Korvosa's Gray district or disguise themselves as mindless undead in places like Geb or Kaer Magas Ankar Te district. Losing trapfinding ended up being the wrong choice, but evasion was just too good to lose. A there were few rogue talents I saw my iconic grave robber taking it probably would have been a better choice. Changing the sneak attack progression could have worked too.

Looking back I would have left the skills unchanged as the rogue has more than enough skill points to pick up know (religion) even w/o the +3 class bonus. That would've saved me a ton of word count!

A minor ability I thought about throwing in was called Can't Take It With You (Ex): when selling treasure a grave robber's reputation proceeds him. Treat the settlement as one size smaller for base value and purchase limits. However the extra time spent looking for buyers grants the grave robber a bonus on Diplomacy checks to gather information equal to 1/2 their rogue level (minimum +1). In addition if the grave robber has ranks in Profession (gravedigger) he may roll twice on checks to earn weekly income and add the results together. This replaces the rogue talent gained at 2nd level. I ended up not loving this because Players would just send the face ahead to a town to sell loot and it wouldn't end up being a penalty at all. RP restrictions not being restrictions is one of my pet peeves.

Cheating the Reaper should have been the steal combat maneuver with bluff ranks replacing BAB. I tossed that idea around quite a bit, but went with feint because I tied it to sneak attack dice. As a combat maneuver I could have messed with sneak attack for elude death's touch and soiled soul.

Questions on how the grave robber would deal with incorporeal undead and cheating the reaper is pretty simple... Ghost touch weapon! Sometimes you just need the right gear to deal with things.

--Vrock the vote!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Thanks for the insight on your design, now wow us this round.

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Recent threads in Round 2 - Top 32: Create an archetype

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