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Dreamer (Summoner)


Round 2 - Top 32: Create an archetype

Qadira RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 aka Sect

Dreamer (Summoner)
Scholars and mystics claim that the strangest and most fantastical experiences can be found in one’s dreams. No one knows this better than the dreamer, whose guardian eidolon walks the earth while its master slumbers.
Eidolon: The dreamer’s eidolon functions as the summoner’s eidolon, except that it may only be summoned if the dreamer is asleep or unconscious; after the dreamer is asleep or unconscious for one minute, the eidolon may be summoned as a free action. If the dreamer wakes up or is killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
Wandering Dream (Su): At 4th level, the distance an eidolon may move away from its master extends to 500 feet. It may also move up to 5,000 feet at a cost of 50% of its current and maximum hit points, and 5 miles at a cost of 75% of its current and maximum hit points. As the dreamer gains levels, these distances continue to increase: at 8th level, the distances increase to 10,000 feet, 5 miles, and 20 miles, at 12th level to 5 miles, 20 miles, and 100 miles, and at 16th level to 20 miles, 100 miles, and 500 miles.
This is not without its cost: as a result of the dreamer’s losing himself to the dreaming world, he begins to accrue a penalty to Perception checks to awaken equal to ½ of his summoner level. This ability replaces transposition and merge forms.
Master’s Visage (Su): At 12th level, as a full round action, the dreamer can project his consciousness as a shadow conjuration of himself next to his eidolon for 10 minutes per summoner level. This projection is destroyed if it moves beyond 30 feet from the eidolon, and any creature that interacts with the image can make a Will save of DC 10 + ½ his summoner level + his Charisma modifier to recognize its true nature. The projection wears all items that the dreamer is wearing except for items with an extradimensional storage space, and is capable of using the dreamer’s feats, racial, and class abilities. Any consumable item used by the image is destroyed. The dreamer may use this ability once per day, plus an additional time per day at 18th level. This ability replaces aspect and greater aspect.
Eternal Dream (Su): At 20th level, dream becomes reality for the dreamer. The eidolon has no limit to how far away it can move away from its master, as long as it remains on the same plane as its master, and is unaffected by spells such as banishment. If it is sent back to its home plane due to death, it may be summoned back after twelve hours. This ability replaces twin eidolon.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

Really bad design decision here. Making it so that a summoner's eidolon can only be active while he sleeps creates an immediate camp guardian every night for an adventuring party. It also ensures the summoner never risks himself, while providing a far more potent long-range scout and no-risk combatant. Adventuring parties could simply cast sleep or deep slumber or symbol of sleep on the party summoner and have him run out this eidolon to weaken everything ahead of them before they have to face it and put themselves at risk. That's a big no-no in game design as far as I'm concerned. It sucks the life right out of what adventuring is meant to be. And it leaves a lot of bored players sitting around while the GM handles the one player's summoned eidolon.

Then, you further complicate the no-risk adventuring with the shadow conjuration of the dreamer so he can go alongside his eidolon. I don't what led you to believe this would make for a game-enhancing archetype for any class. This is a real disappointment after reviewing your smuggler's collapsible robe. We actually spent a lot of time cautioning against this type of effect during the auto-reject advice for the wondrous item round. And, after successfully avoiding that pitfall, it seemingly claims you straight away in Round Two.

Thus, I DO NOT RECOMMEND this archetype design to advance to the next round. I'd be surprised if the voters disagree, but best of luck in the voting.

CEO, Goblinworks

Total Points: 2.5 Points
Recommendation: Not recommended for advancement

Comments In Detail

Name & Theme (1 point)
Name matches the theme.

Mechanics (.5 point)
So it's basically a summoner with an eidolon who can roam further away but only works when the character sleeps?

Virtually no actual design here whatsoever.

Mechanically harmless I guess, but very very pointless.

Awesomeness (0 points)
Why is this better than a Summoner?

Template (1 point)
Used the template well.

Context (0 points)
You lost all credit when this was restricted to a sleeping character. Other than tiny NPC corner cases that makes this archetype useless.

Paizo Employee Developer

Taking on a summoner archetype was a bold decision, as so much of the class is determined by its eidolon and there are no examples to look at in existing Pathfinder sourcebooks. So kudos for biting off such a meaty challenge for yourself.

I'm afraid my praise ends there, though. I think the concept you chose here lacks a place in the game and internal cohesion. So it's a summoner who just dreams his eidolon into existence? Limiting this to sleeping characters only kills this right out of the gate, as the summoner would need to sleep every battle, since he'd be almost completely useless in combat otherwise. It also makes it such that one can simply wake up the summoner (a move or free action depending on the circumstances) in order to eliminate what should be a challenging foe in his eidolon.

What this archetype really does is just let the summoner stay safely in town asleep while his eidolon goes adventuring with the rest of the party. Neat if you just want to play an eidolon, but lame if you really want to be a summoner using his eidolon on the battlefield along side you. It makes adventuring easy for the summoner and basically just lets him play a monster instead of a humanoid summoning a monster.

Smuggler's collapsible robe was one of my favorite wondrous items last round, so I had high hopes for you this round. Despite that, I DO NOT RECOMMEND this archetype design for advancement. You've clearly got a lot of creativity, Sean, but I think this particular design was a misstep. Best of luck in the vote nonetheless.

Contributor

As the other judges said:

1) This means the summoner sleeps and the eidolon guards the camp. Play a Small summoner, have your friends put you in a bag of holding except for your head, and your eidolon is an immortal combat monster.

2) This means the eidolon can go adventuring while the character stays at home. This is exactly the reason why we put the range limits in the standard summoner class--we didn't want the summoner to sit at home and relax while the eidolon did all the work.

You could have handled the sleeping thing in a different way--perhaps the eidolon has different powers when the summoner is asleep, perhaps the eidolon sticks around in a weaker form when the summoner sleeps, perhaps something relating to reshaping the eidolon according to your dreams, and so on. But as written, it gets rid of two of the major disadvantages of the summoner class.

RECOMMENDATION: I do NOT recommend this archetype design for advancement in the competition.

Shadow Lodge

This feels all around worse than a normal summoner, and far more of a plot hook gimmick than a real option for PCs

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm sorry but now I can't get the phrase, "Look, enemies, put the Summoner to sleep..." out of my head.

Which sucks, because this reminds me of some serious HP Lovecraft awesomeness right out of The Dreams of Unknown Kadath...


I think the judges are generally pretty spot-on in their commentary, so I was really surprised to see that none of them discussed what seems to me to be the elephant in the room here.

The entire signature schtick of the summoner class is that the summoner and the eidolon will be fighting in concert -- something this archetype can't do at all until the Master's Visage ability comes in at 12th. It's clear that almost every design choice for the summoner class -- from feats/spells/class abilities, everything -- was made with this implicit assumption.

If you want proof of that from a different angle, read some of the summoner threads here and get a feeling for the various ways people build summoners. None of them work at all for this archetype. Mounted combat summoner who uses his eidolon as a mount? Nope. Melee summoner meant to flank with his eidolon? Nope. Casterish or archer summoner with the eidolon tanking? Nope and nope. Maybe that casts some light on how all accumulated wisdom on how to play this class would be cast aside to play a Dreamer.

So to the good, I think the above means some of the judges have overstated the (pre-12th level, at least) combat or adventuring strength of this archetype. Okay, so you've got an eidolon standing watch while you sleep. Great. You had to give up a lot to get it, and I don't think it's a good trade.

To the bad, I think the class breaks down in odd ways when the summoner and eidolon can't ever act together. For example, the summoner can't cast rejuvenate spells on his eidolon, and the eidolon doesn't recover hit points naturally. (There's a fast healing evolution, but it's not available until 11th level, almost the 12th necessary for the shadow conjuration summoner anyway.) That the summoner will never be able to cast his many eidolon-appropriate buff spells on the eidolon severely curtails its power. The summoner and party must choose between having the summoner awake and relying on his summon monster ability almost entirely, or having the eidolon in play with no summoner; either option feels like less than a full character to me.

Ultimately, I think this archetype is questionably balanced. I don't think I'd play it and I'm not sure if I'd allow it in a game I'm running -- in some ways it seems too strong, in many others, not nearly strong enough. However, I'm still leaning towards voting for it -- I don't think the entries in this round, overall, are as strong as the wondrous item round, and I really like that something clever, imaginative, unique, and memorable was attempted here, even if I also think that attempt fell short. It may have struck out, but it really did swing for the fences in a big way and that made a big impression on me.


I like this concept, but it's such a limiting choice for most games. This makes the player dis-involve himself to achieve the maximum effect of his eidolon. It creates problems for both the player and the GM, and it's not going to be a good match for many tables.

Which is sad, because it's cool. Just not very playable.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka primemover003

This really reminds me of a Decker or moreso a Rigger from Shadowrun. A remote operator for a done.

I think if you had some kind of sleepwalking, trance, or narcolepsy mechanic (like an oracles curse) that you functioned under while the eidolon was summoned it may have been more interesting and playable. Perhaps swapping your summon monster ability for shadow conjured creatures as half real nightmares plucked from your walking dream? The concept could still be salvaged in my mind.

--Vrock-a-bye baby


I definitely think this concept COULD be made to work,
the problem was just that is was SUCH a big change in how Summoners work, that it really needed more support-work to flesh out. A sleep-walk mechanic so you can at least follow the party around would be simple enough. The really serious changes feel just a bit cavalierly thrown out, without regard for every consequence - I mean, you`re supposed to Summon your Eidolon as a Free Action when asleep, when YOU CAN^T TAKE ANY ACTIONS when asleep. Is your Eidolon running around doing it`s own thing while you`re asleep, or what?

I think a radical change in play-style CAN be do-able via this type of Archetype format (though it probably falls on the Alt. Class die of the invisible line separating them), but it just needs more support. Scott`s idea of Shadow Summons is interesting to me... On the other hand, the Summons are what you will rely on when awake.

I think the bits about increasing distance could have chucked, forcing your sleeping body to be hauled around within closer distance (possibly with sleepwalking), and that would have freed alot of word-count for other stuff. I think that also would have dealt with Judge`s and other readers` mis-apprehension at the idea that the PC is going to be snoozing in a castle miles away from the action. A sleep-walker Summoner doesn`t disrupt game dynamics QUITE as much IMHO.

Basically, I really love the idea here, but I think you bit off a bit too much, and made a couple design choices that just didn`t help you at all. I honestly wasn`t that thrilled with your Wondrous Item, but the creativity in concept here really did draw me in... The execution just wasn`t quite worthy enough. Good luck if you make it thru to next round, or in future contests!!!

Osirion RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4 , Star Voter 2013 aka raidou

Sean, your Smuggler's Robe caught a lot of people's eyes as a really fun device that had tons of potential for fun. This round you've chosen to tackle an archetype for a class that has no other archetypes for comparison. It's a ballsy move, and I applaud your decision to go boldly into this design space. So let's see what you can do for us.

dreamer wrote:

Eidolon: The dreamer’s eidolon functions as the summoner’s eidolon, except that it may only be summoned if the dreamer is asleep or unconscious; after the dreamer is asleep or unconscious for one minute, the eidolon may be summoned as a free action. If the dreamer wakes up or is killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

Wandering Dream (Su): At 4th level, the distance an eidolon may move away from its master extends to 500 feet...

Interesting, but I think ultimately unworkable. In this scenario, you and your eidolon never interact. A sleeping character is unable to take actions, free or otherwise. So even if you switch this around to say that the eidolon is summoned automatically upon falling asleep, the summoner can't make use of MANY of his abilities (Bond Senses, Shield Ally, etc). This gives up some major summoner power, and I question the value of what it gets in return. I feel like this archetype is TRYING to make it so the eidolon can go adventuring and the summoner can stay in bed. I'm not on board with that, and there are too many mechanical hurdles here to make this a playable archetype.

dreamer wrote:
Master’s Visage (Su): At 12th level, as a full round action, the dreamer can project his consciousness as a shadow conjuration of himself next to his eidolon for 10 minutes per summoner level. This projection is destroyed if it moves beyond 30 feet from the eidolon, and any creature that interacts with the image can make a Will save of DC 10 + ½ his summoner level + his Charisma modifier to recognize its true nature. The projection wears all items that the dreamer is wearing except for items with an extradimensional storage space, and is capable of using the dreamer’s feats, racial, and class abilities. Any consumable item used by the image is destroyed. The dreamer may use this ability once per day, plus an additional time per day at 18th level. This ability replaces aspect and greater aspect.

Projecting a Shadow Conjuration of oneself is not something the basic spell of that name can do. As such, you need to define how exactly this works. I understand the intent, but as written this ability would require extensive ruling to figure out all the specifics.

dreamer wrote:
Eternal Dream (Su): At 20th level, dream becomes reality for the dreamer. The eidolon has no limit to how far away it can move away from its master, as long as it remains on the same plane as its master, and is unaffected by spells such as banishment. If it is sent back to its home plane due to death, it may be summoned back after twelve hours. This ability replaces twin eidolon.

So by 20th level you can finally, FINALLY just play the eidolon and leave the summoner behind in a pesh-induced coma.

Sean, from a thematic and narrative sense, this is a neat concept. Unfortunately, it's mechanically unplayable. Basing a concept on having one of your party members asleep half the time has some fundamental flaws. If you're not asleep, you're gimped because you can't use the cool class focus. If you are asleep, the rest of the party has to deal with carting your lazy self around or protecting you from getting coup de graced. As a result, I'm sorry to say this entry can't receive a vote from me.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16, Contributor

GMs take note. This concept has a lot of potential if you apply it to an NPC.

You thought the guy who didn't know he was a lycanthrope was an interesting NPC to drop into an adventure? Imagine the guy who doesn't realize that his nightmare is running amuck?

I don't know if I'd let a player take this but I'm going to use it for an adventure or campaign one of these days.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Hal Maclean wrote:

GMs take note. This concept has a lot of potential if you apply it to an NPC.

You thought the guy who didn't know he was a lycanthrope was an interesting NPC to drop into an adventure? Imagine the guy who doesn't realize that his nightmare is running amuck?

I don't know if I'd let a player take this but I'm going to use it for an adventure or campaign one of these days.

We call that a Phystic, or an Altairan creature from the Id :-)

Matt would agree that this is more a plot device than a Summoner. Throw summon spells while awake, let fido roam while you're asleep.

Unfortunately Matt fell asleep and his Eidolon is writing this post.

Neither of us can recommend this for advancment.


I think the theme is very interesting, but I don't like the implementation.

I think this may end up being a hassle for a GM if the character is effectively doing stuff at night while other characters are sleeping. Also, I'm not sure the other players will enjoy this.

Grand Lodge Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Name and concept: It's an intriguing idea, perhaps very narrow as the basis for a class (though I might say the same about the summoner itself).
Archetype mechanics, expression of the concept: Unconscious is not the same as asleep, as I've argued at length elsewhere. The one-minute delay before the eidolon appears at least seems to recognise the potential difficulties of this interpretation.
The distance limitation either doesn't affect game play or requires the GM to define facts about quite a wide area that could otherwise remain hazy. I doubt that the eidolon could reach the more distant limits using its normal movement rate without raising serious questions about the dreamer weakening or dying from starvation.
Increasing penalties to awaken by level could be an interesting reversion to some ideas of much earlier sword and sorcery.
Wider relationships: It taps into some really iconic fantasy themes.
I have to agree with others' concerns about its effect on game play. Inherently it requires the player to monopolise the GM's time once a game day and can't apply the character's major class ability in ordinary adventuring time (until 12th level, then the dreamer gets to adventure as normal while regaining spells).

This is a fantasy trope that I really like to see whenever designers find ways to bring it in. It's well executed in detail. However, this is an exercise of design for a game, not of abstract writing, and I don't think the author has thought through its implications in a game environment. That's an essential skill to write an adventure.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

I too immediately thought "it's the Decker for Pathfinder!" That isn't a good thing, as decking was widely derided for almost requiring most of a group to sit on their hands. I'll go ahead and disagree with Neil on having your allies putting you to sleep be an option, though. Too easier to wake up the summoner, or just whack him with a coup. Carrying around in a backpack, though...

I like the general idea, but like the decker, I see it as a game killer. And as Neil said, this resembles an item the judges warned against. Full disclosure: in my first Paizo turnover, I did a "act while sleeping" item. They're cool, they just don't work out.

I'm reluctantly putting this in my maybe pile for now, off the strength of your cloak.

Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Hydro

I'm a sucker for dream-magic, and I quite like the vision here, but it IS pretty bad for the game. I would enjoy reading a story about this character, and I'd love to use him as an NPC, but I don't think I would want to adventure with him.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Steven T. Helt

The whole point of the summoner is you get to play a mean combat monster designed by you, AND the spellcasting support that keeps it going. While thematically it's nat, this idea that the dreamer dreams a monstrous self and his self manifest to do justice/evil/mayhem in the real world, the entire flavor of the class is disrupted. There can now be no planar travel, the eidolon won't heal - it just blows.

Moreover, there really aren't any design choices. I can sleep while the dude I'd control anyway does the same stuff.

It's weird. Anyone who attempts an archetype for one of the new classes deserves at least a little credit, of course. But then the summoner and alchemist have the most actual class features to replace, presumably making them the easiest.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Steven T. Helt

Curaigh wrote:
Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.

One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. I just think this presentation is not the way.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Hydro

Steven T. Helt wrote:


One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering.

Mine was a powerful but hostile eidolon (a "bound demon") who wouldn't mind murdering his keeper. You plop him down into the middle of a group of enemies, let him cause as much havoc as you dare, and then unsummon him before he has time to reach you. I ran into trouble in that the eidolon's behavior was too hard to define and asked too much of the GM.

Fun to tinker with indeed, but also tricky. After all, getting the class right in the first place took a lot of trial and error.

On reflection I actually do respect the goal of making it so that the eidolon is the real adventurer (and then having a shadow-you to serve as the eidolon's eidolon; that's pretty cute). It just doesn't really account for the disposability of eidolons or the hassle of having a sleeping body around.

(I do like the 'riposted eidolon', by the way; almost tempted to just play it as a refluffing of the standard arrangement)

Andoran Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


... Play a Small summoner, have your friends put you in a bag of holding except for your head, and your eidolon is an immortal combat monster.

Or wear a helm of underwater action.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 , Marathon Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka Demiurge 1138

Yeah, this isn't doing it for me. The eidolon getting to run around with the caster miles away and asleep = bad game design, because there's no sense of danger. The eidolon and summoner never interacting because only one of them's on the board at once = bad game design, because so many class features fall by the wayside.

I agree that it's an interesting plot device and would make for an unusual and memorable character in a novel. But this isn't a novel; it's a game. I will not be voting for this entry.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

I really like the summoner class, and really tried to come up with an archetype of my own here. But it's pretty hard. I applaud your efforts with one of the toughest classes to archetype, but you really fell down on mechanics here. I didn't even think of safe adventuring when I first read this through, all I thought was "but now you only get one of them at a time." Having your eidolon only available when you are not removes all capacity for cooperative tactics. You can't buff or heal him. It also really screws with party dynamics, since you're effectively active 24 hours a day, which demands more attention be placed on you than on other party members.


Sean Huguenard wrote:

Dreamer (Summoner)

Scholars and mystics claim that the strangest and most fantastical experiences can be found in one’s dreams. No one knows this better than the dreamer, whose guardian eidolon walks the earth while its master slumbers.
Eidolon: The dreamer’s eidolon functions as the summoner’s eidolon, except that it may only be summoned if the dreamer is asleep or unconscious; after the dreamer is asleep or unconscious for one minute, the eidolon may be summoned as a free action. If the dreamer wakes up or is killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

Disclaimer:

You should know the drill by now, but in case you missed it the first time round, Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus:
Spoiler:
Fairness is an adjective applicable to hair coloration, balance is what a couple of mortals rapidly losing it on opposite ends of a plank pivoted on a rocky spire a couple of hundred feet above a slowly rising pool of molten basalt try to do, and logic is one of those things which you could swear is there when you rattle the piggybank but if anyone other than a demon opens it the contents turn out to be a couple of dead moths and a three week old shopping list.
;)

Would you want this person sitting next to you as a guest at a formal evening dress dinner party?
Oh yes... I'm always extremely happy to meet any specialist practitioner of conjuration or summoning magic up at close quarters when they don't have a magic circle or binding charm to protect them.

How effective a flower-picker does this person seem likely to be?
Flower-picker? How about how many tooth picks does he make as a measure of effectiveness? Do you know how many tooth-picks you can make out of the average male or female humanoid adult?

Could you hire one person like this to do a better job than one other trained mercenary and/or to do the jobs of two (or more) other trained mercenaries?
Reining in my instinctive prejudice against this character and all his kind for a moment, I concede he probably does make a better night-watchmen than most. You might in fact say he's trained for one of the relatively few careers which requires regularly falling asleep on the job as part of the job description. Not only that but he's contributing 100% of the time, twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five (or whatever orbital/rotational cycle is appropriate to your world) days a year. If he's not up swinging his sword and firing his crossbow or spells at something, than his eidolon is on the prowl. He Never Stops Going. Let me repeat that. HE NEVER STOPS GOING.

Other comments?
The *GOOD* thing about the men and women who train as 'Summoners' from a succubus' point of view is that once they're asleep or unconscious that annoying guardian thing is *gone*. At that point a succubus can do whatever she wants to a summoner (and whilst there are a number of amusing options which present themselves, to be frank killing the summoner there and then with a minimum of trimmings is the safest option). Unfortunately, a Dreamer falling asleep is the point at which his or her annoying pet comes out to play...
I have had a number of friends seriously injured or indeed nearly killed by Dreamers - or to be more accurate by the eidolon companions of Dreamers. Whilst there are exquisite fates on the lower planes awaiting most conjuration or summoning specialists in their afterlives, something needs to be done about those who are still alive who train Dreamers.

Desirability:
Snack. With extreme prejudice. Or bodyguard. (But the latter said only very grudgingly and through gritted teeth.)

Further Disclaimer:
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (with half an eye on Lord Orcus) would like to clarify that mortal voters should probably rely on more than just her own (impeccable) assessments in making up their minds on how to vote. Thank You.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

The idea of inverting the summoner's schtick to only when he's asleep instead of only when he's awake has a neat symmetry to it... except then you remember the summoner is going to be part of a PARTY of adventurers, and being on an opposite sleep-wake cycle with either his party-mates or his pocket-monster is pretty much made of suck either way.

The dreaming himself into existence next to the pocket monster again makes sense if we were writing a novel, but turns adventuring into a virtual reality game that poses no risk to the real character. Which sucks.

Sorry, but I gotta say ixnay on isthay.

Congrats on making round 2, and best of luck!


I have to try to pimp this one for votes one more time -- it's unquestionably flawed, but I admire the eye for interesting inversions that says "Oh, the eidolon goes away when the summoner's unconscious? What if we do the opposite of that?" and I want to see what this guy cooks up for round 3.


Sean Huguenard wrote:

Dreamer (Summoner)

Disclaimer: My ranking scheme for this round consists of given marks form 0 to 4 in the following three categories:

1.Is the Archetype conceptually interesting?
2.Are the mechanics of the Archetype interesting?
3.Are the mechanics of the Archetype balanced and well executed?
But rather than simply adding up the marks for a final score I'm gonna interpret them as a point in 3-dimensional space and the final mark of your submission will be the length of the vector between the origin and this point.
Note that my ranking doesn't need to directly correspond with my votes, as other factors like: Strength of your item submission, mood, my horrorscope and other random stuff still factor in. Also note that this scheme is highly subjective and only mirrors my perception and opinion about your archetype submission.

Conceptual Mojo (CM): 2, I love the general idea of a dream focused summoner, but your execution is really dilutiong and splitting the idea. If he would have day-dreamed his summons into existence, making them half-real incorporeal figment stuff, I would have been totally sold, but a character concept that relies on snoozing away just make me sleepy.

Mechanical Mojo (MM): 1, It goes downhill from here, still thinking about cool dream based abilites, animeate dreams form Bestiray 2 , shadow conjurations and JD like absent minded head-in-the-sky summoners, and reading abilites that allow eidolons to wander off alone ( safe adventuring!) and shadow conjurations of one self (it should be the other way around! I'm the real one!). And not more here. Suitable for a villain that continues to harrass the PCs, because they just kill the dream figments of him, but bleh for characters. And the abilities themselves aren't interesting at all.

Mechanical Execution (ME): 1, Between Giving up cool in combat abilities for an eidolon that is only there when I'm asleep and that can move further away ( there is a low level spell that allows that), allowing safe adventuring, and splitting focus ( asleep/awake), I'm not sure if it is over or underpowered, But I'm sure I don't like it.

Final note: Sadly I was really excited about summoner Archetypes and a dream based summoner is a great idea (maybe one of the best of this round), but what you present dissappoints all those expectations.

Total Score: 2.449

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Dude! You almost had this, reading your flavor text I was sure you were going to make it so that the eidolon didn’t disappear when the summoner falls asleep. Sure you would have had to trade out abilities, but there are some people on these boards who really want that with their summoner. You could have the eidolon only appear after the summoner has 8 hours of rest, and that the eidolon heals when the summoner rests. Heck, maybe have the eidolon need sleep as well. :-)

You could even make the eidolon invisible (it’s an imaginary ‘friend’ that only the summoner can see :-).

The eidolon’s range limit isn’t a problem to me, as a summoner I want my eidolon close so it can protect me.

Anyway, I hope that you enjoy the RPG Superstar experience. Good luck.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Ezekiel Shanoax, the Stormchild

I love the idea of this archetype. A 'dreamer' build for Summoner is a great idea. I'd love to play one, I think having one as an NPC in a game would be great, and it meshes perfectly with my favorite dreamy setting, Coliseum Morpheuon. So when I first glanced at the list of the 32, this was the entry that immediately drew my eye and made me say Oooh!

That said, the mechanics and playability are fundamentally flawed, for all the reasons already expressed. As written, a character under these rules would really only be suitable for a solo campaign, or as an NPC, and would have a lot of problems if included in your average party of adventurers.

So I give this entry an A+ for idea, but a much lower grade for mechanics and execution. I think that if the creator would take some of the advice in this thread and fix the identified flaws, a second draft of this idea would be fantastic.

I'm highly considering giving this entry one of my votes, because he dared to dare a dream that I would want to see made real, and he didn't try and play it safe.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

Oh my. What on Earth happened here? Am I missing something, or is this virtually unplayable for a PC?

Goodness, this is a big miss.

Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Steven T. Helt wrote:
Curaigh wrote:
Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.
One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. I just think this presentation is not the way.
nice :)
Nicolas Quimby wrote:
Mine was a powerful but hostile eidolon (a "bound demon") who wouldn't mind murdering his keeper. You plop him down into the middle of a group of enemies, let him cause as much havoc as you dare, and then unsummon him before he has time to reach you.

also nice :)

Matt Goodall wrote:
You could even make the eidolon invisible (it’s an imaginary ‘friend’ that only the summoner can see :-).

but this is my favorite... calvinball anyone:)


Sean Huguenard wrote:
Dreamer (Summoner)

This concept is intersting, but only playable as either an NPC or a loner character for a very specific storyline.

Ken


Disclaimer:
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus; and in the language of the Abyss ‘sorry’ is what you make others after you’ve had a bad day, ‘commiserations’ is the concept whereby if you’ve had a miserable day you go out and make others at least as unhappy as you are, and ‘sympathy’ is military jargon for a popular model of half a mile high siege-tower with spiked wheels, ballistae and fireball hurling catapults. (By way of explanation for the latter it’s a demonic joke: ‘See, we have sympathy for your situation’.)

Obligatory End of Round 2 Results Post:

Spoiler:
In the ever-shifting chaos of Abyssal hierarchies and social-networks, Good Manners are naturally essential. One never knows when a powerful demon whom one once jostled at a dinner party and whom one never actually made sufficient reparations to for the inconvenience is going to be the new landlady of your own part of the Abyss and looking for some demons to make Very Sorry having just had a bad day herself.
Consequently a multitude of books of etiquette are in circulation with examples of ‘appropriate’ phrases to use in various situations. I shall take the liberty of quoting a few:
“Abyssal etiquette, Demon Lords” wrote:
…Greetings, your most puissant highness…
“Abyssal etiquette, Apparent Mortal Who Is Prospective Dinner” wrote:
…Why sirrah, it is a pleasure to meet you. May one inquire, is that an enchanted cold-iron dagger of demon-slaying in your pocket, or are you just pleased to see me?...
“Abyssal etiquette, Guests Whom There Is No Longer Any Room To Accommodate And Who Are About To Depart Through A Trapdoor Into A (Possibly) Snake Filled Pit” wrote:
…Goodbye Mr. Bond…

(The author of the work from which I derive the latter quote is incidentally a fiend with a curious affectation for monocles and white cats who happens to be a servant of Andirifkhu.)

See you around another year, perhaps. Or maybe sooner if you feel like sticking around to post for the duration of this year’s contest... ;)

Osirion RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Steven T. Helt

Sean -

I wanted you to know I am challenging my PCs with a dreamer villain of sots in my ROkugan game. She's a loan Senpeti (Egyptian) merchant princess rescued from the desert years ago by the Unicorn clan and married to a bonge magistrate. However, she dreams darkly of mythical creatures, who come to remind her of her destiny and kill all who prevent the eidolon from transportig her sleeping form back to the ancient lands of her people. She thinks she is haunted, and the samurai think she prophecies the beasts, which strangely attracts them to her. Currently no one suspects the summonr/eidolon relationship.

It's fun. I have added my own twist on the class features that changed: she gains Eschew Materials and can cast spells on the combat subconsciously, since she can remotely view the eidolon. I allow summoned creatures to come into play with a certain level of spells already cast on them, which makes the summoner really powerful, and I allow her to completely re-arrange the eidolon, including base form, every night so it is someting completely different each time. They've fought summoned swarms in support of a giant scorpion-thing, a brutal mummy, and a massive sphinx-like creature. Monday, they get the sandworm with poison sting and lightning breath.

I struggled to support the archetype as a viable PC variant, but it's genius for villains. I thought you'f like to know some seasoned gamers are getting their butts handed to them and are having a good time.

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