paizo.com Recent Posts in Dreamer (Summoner)paizo.com Recent Posts in Dreamer (Summoner)2012-11-15T23:09:48Z2012-11-15T23:09:48ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Steven Helthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#372011-03-31T03:40:35Z2011-03-31T03:40:35Z<p>Sean - </p>
<p>I wanted you to know I am challenging my PCs with a dreamer villain of sots in my ROkugan game. She's a loan Senpeti (Egyptian) merchant princess rescued from the desert years ago by the Unicorn clan and married to a <i>bonge</i> magistrate. However, she dreams darkly of mythical creatures, who come to remind her of her destiny and kill all who prevent the eidolon from transportig her sleeping form back to the ancient lands of her people. She thinks she is haunted, and the samurai think she prophecies the beasts, which strangely attracts them to her. Currently no one suspects the summonr/eidolon relationship.</p>
<p>It's fun. I have added my own twist on the class features that changed: she gains Eschew Materials and can cast spells on the combat subconsciously, since she can remotely view the eidolon. I allow summoned creatures to come into play with a certain level of spells already cast on them, which makes the summoner really powerful, and I allow her to completely re-arrange the eidolon, including base form, every night so it is someting completely different each time. They've fought summoned swarms in support of a giant scorpion-thing, a brutal mummy, and a massive sphinx-like creature. Monday, they get the sandworm with poison sting and lightning breath.</p>
<p>I struggled to support the archetype as a viable PC variant, but it's genius for villains. I thought you'f like to know some seasoned gamers are getting their butts handed to them and are having a good time.</p>Sean -
I wanted you to know I am challenging my PCs with a dreamer villain of sots in my ROkugan game. She's a loan Senpeti (Egyptian) merchant princess rescued from the desert years ago by the Unicorn clan and married to a bonge magistrate. However, she dreams darkly of mythical creatures, who come to remind her of her destiny and kill all who prevent the eidolon from transportig her sleeping form back to the ancient lands of her people. She thinks she is haunted, and the samurai think she...Steven Helt2011-03-31T03:40:35ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#362011-02-01T22:24:38Z2011-02-01T22:24:38Z<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Disclaimer:
<br />
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus; and in the language of the Abyss ‘sorry’ is what you make others after you’ve had a bad day, ‘commiserations’ is the concept whereby if you’ve had a <i>miserable</i> day you go out and make others at <i>least</i> as unhappy as you are, and ‘sympathy’ is military jargon for a popular model of half a mile high siege-tower with spiked wheels, ballistae and fireball hurling catapults. (By way of explanation for the latter it’s a demonic joke: ‘See, we have sympathy for your situation’.) </span>
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Obligatory End of Round 2 Results Post: [Spoiler omitted]
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See you around another year, perhaps. Or maybe sooner if you feel like sticking around to post for the duration of this year’s contest... <span class=messageboard-ooc>;) </span></p>Disclaimer:
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus; and in the language of the Abyss ‘sorry’ is what you make others after you’ve had a bad day, ‘commiserations’ is the concept whereby if you’ve had a miserable day you go out and make others at least as unhappy as you are, and ‘sympathy’ is military jargon for a popular model of half a mile high siege-tower with spiked wheels, ballistae and fireball hurling catapults. (By way of explanation for the...Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)2011-02-01T22:24:38ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Kenneth.T.Colehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#352011-01-31T22:24:15Z2011-01-31T22:24:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean Huguenard wrote:</div><blockquote> <b>Dreamer (Summoner)</b> </blockquote><p>This concept is intersting, but only playable as either an NPC or a loner character for a very specific storyline.
<p>Ken</p>Sean Huguenard wrote:Dreamer (Summoner)
This concept is intersting, but only playable as either an NPC or a loner character for a very specific storyline. KenKenneth.T.Cole2011-01-31T22:24:15ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Curaighhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#342011-01-30T07:51:52Z2011-01-30T07:51:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Steven T. Helt wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Curaigh wrote:</div><blockquote> Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck. </blockquote>One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. I just think this presentation is not the way. </blockquote>nice :)<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicolas Quimby wrote:</div><blockquote> Mine was a powerful but hostile eidolon (a "bound demon") who wouldn't mind murdering his keeper. You plop him down into the middle of a group of enemies, let him cause as much havoc as you dare, and then unsummon him before he has time to reach you. </blockquote><p>also nice :)
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Matt Goodall wrote:</div><blockquote> You could even make the eidolon invisible (it’s an imaginary ‘friend’ that only the summoner can see :-). </blockquote><p>but this is my favorite... calvinball anyone:)Steven T. Helt wrote:Curaigh wrote: Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.
One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. I just think...Curaigh2011-01-30T07:51:52ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Joe Wellshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#332011-01-30T03:41:41Z2011-01-30T03:41:41Z<p>Oh my. What on Earth happened here? Am I missing something, or is this virtually unplayable for a PC?</p>
<p>Goodness, this is a big miss.</p>Oh my. What on Earth happened here? Am I missing something, or is this virtually unplayable for a PC?
Goodness, this is a big miss.Joe Wells2011-01-30T03:41:41ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Matt Banachhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#322011-01-29T18:24:31Z2011-01-29T18:24:31Z<p>I love the idea of this archetype. A 'dreamer' build for Summoner is a great idea. I'd love to play one, I think having one as an NPC in a game would be great, and it meshes perfectly with my favorite dreamy setting, <a href="http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/c/cubicle7/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8gph&source=search" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Coliseum Morpheuon</a>. So when I first glanced at the list of the 32, this was the entry that immediately drew my eye and made me say Oooh!</p>
<p>That said, the mechanics and playability are fundamentally flawed, for all the reasons already expressed. As written, a character under these rules would really only be suitable for a solo campaign, or as an NPC, and would have a lot of problems if included in your average party of adventurers.</p>
<p>So I give this entry an A+ for idea, but a much lower grade for mechanics and execution. I think that if the creator would take some of the advice in this thread and fix the identified flaws, a second draft of this idea would be fantastic.</p>
<p>I'm highly considering giving this entry one of my votes, because he dared to dare a dream that I would want to see made real, and he didn't try and play it safe.</p>I love the idea of this archetype. A 'dreamer' build for Summoner is a great idea. I'd love to play one, I think having one as an NPC in a game would be great, and it meshes perfectly with my favorite dreamy setting, Coliseum Morpheuon. So when I first glanced at the list of the 32, this was the entry that immediately drew my eye and made me say Oooh!
That said, the mechanics and playability are fundamentally flawed, for all the reasons already expressed. As written, a character under these...Matt Banach2011-01-29T18:24:31ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Matt Goodallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#312012-07-18T23:29:55Z2011-01-29T14:32:33Z<p>Dude! You almost had this, reading your flavor text I was sure you were going to make it so that the eidolon didn’t disappear when the summoner falls asleep. Sure you would have had to trade out abilities, but there are some people on these boards who really want that with their summoner. You could have the eidolon only appear after the summoner has 8 hours of rest, and that the eidolon heals when the summoner rests. Heck, maybe have the eidolon need sleep as well. :-) </p>
<p>You could even make the eidolon invisible (it’s an imaginary ‘friend’ that only the summoner can see :-).</p>
<p>The eidolon’s range limit isn’t a problem to me, as a summoner I want my eidolon close so it can protect me.</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope that you enjoy the RPG Superstar experience. Good luck.</p>Dude! You almost had this, reading your flavor text I was sure you were going to make it so that the eidolon didn’t disappear when the summoner falls asleep. Sure you would have had to trade out abilities, but there are some people on these boards who really want that with their summoner. You could have the eidolon only appear after the summoner has 8 hours of rest, and that the eidolon heals when the summoner rests. Heck, maybe have the eidolon need sleep as well. :-)
You could even make...Matt Goodall2011-01-29T14:32:33ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Azmahelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#302011-01-29T13:10:06Z2011-01-29T13:10:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean Huguenard wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <b>Dreamer (Summoner)</b>
</p>
</blockquote><p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Disclaimer: My ranking scheme for this round consists of given marks form 0 to 4 in the following three categories:
</p>
1.Is the Archetype conceptually interesting?
<br />
2.Are the mechanics of the Archetype interesting?
<br />
3.Are the mechanics of the Archetype balanced and well executed?
<br />
But rather than simply adding up the marks for a final score I'm gonna interpret them as a point in 3-dimensional space and the final mark of your submission will be the length of the vector between the origin and this point.
<br />
Note that my ranking doesn't need to directly correspond with my votes, as other factors like: Strength of your item submission, mood, my horrorscope and other random stuff still factor in. Also note that this scheme is highly subjective and only mirrors my perception and opinion about your archetype submission.</span></p>
<p><b>Conceptual Mojo (CM):</b> 2, I love the general idea of a dream focused summoner, but your execution is really dilutiong and splitting the idea. If he would have day-dreamed his summons into existence, making them half-real incorporeal figment stuff, I would have been totally sold, but a character concept that relies on snoozing away just make me sleepy.</p>
<p><b>Mechanical Mojo (MM):</b> 1, It goes downhill from here, still thinking about cool dream based abilites, animeate dreams form Bestiray 2 , shadow conjurations and JD like absent minded head-in-the-sky summoners, and reading abilites that allow eidolons to wander off alone ( safe adventuring!) and shadow conjurations of one self (it should be the other way around! I'm the real one!). And not more here. Suitable for a villain that continues to harrass the PCs, because they just kill the dream figments of him, but bleh for characters. And the abilities themselves aren't interesting at all.</p>
<p><b>Mechanical Execution (ME):</b> 1, Between Giving up cool in combat abilities for an eidolon that is only there when I'm asleep and that can move further away ( there is a low level spell that allows that), allowing safe adventuring, and splitting focus ( asleep/awake), I'm not sure if it is over or underpowered, But I'm sure I don't like it.</p>
<p>Final note: Sadly I was really excited about summoner Archetypes and a dream based summoner is a great idea (maybe one of the best of this round), but what you present dissappoints all those expectations.</p>
<p>Total Score: 2.449</p>Sean Huguenard wrote:Dreamer (Summoner)
Disclaimer: My ranking scheme for this round consists of given marks form 0 to 4 in the following three categories:
1.Is the Archetype conceptually interesting?
2.Are the mechanics of the Archetype interesting?
3.Are the mechanics of the Archetype balanced and well executed?
But rather than simply adding up the marks for a final score I'm gonna interpret them as a point in 3-dimensional space and the final mark of your submission will be the length of...Azmahel2011-01-29T13:10:06ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Dire Mongoosehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#292011-01-28T20:38:49Z2011-01-28T20:38:49Z<p>I have to try to pimp this one for votes one more time — it's unquestionably flawed, but I admire the eye for interesting inversions that says "Oh, the eidolon goes away when the summoner's unconscious? What if we do the opposite of that?" and I want to see what this guy cooks up for round 3.</p>I have to try to pimp this one for votes one more time -- it's unquestionably flawed, but I admire the eye for interesting inversions that says "Oh, the eidolon goes away when the summoner's unconscious? What if we do the opposite of that?" and I want to see what this guy cooks up for round 3.Dire Mongoose2011-01-28T20:38:49ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Jason Nelsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#282011-01-28T05:53:27Z2011-01-28T05:53:27Z<p>The idea of inverting the summoner's schtick to only when he's asleep instead of only when he's awake has a neat symmetry to it... except then you remember the summoner is going to be part of a PARTY of adventurers, and being on an opposite sleep-wake cycle with either his party-mates or his pocket-monster is pretty much made of suck either way.</p>
<p>The dreaming himself into existence next to the pocket monster again makes sense if we were writing a novel, but turns adventuring into a virtual reality game that poses no risk to the real character. Which sucks.</p>
<p>Sorry, but I gotta say ixnay on isthay.</p>
<p>Congrats on making round 2, and best of luck!</p>The idea of inverting the summoner's schtick to only when he's asleep instead of only when he's awake has a neat symmetry to it... except then you remember the summoner is going to be part of a PARTY of adventurers, and being on an opposite sleep-wake cycle with either his party-mates or his pocket-monster is pretty much made of suck either way.
The dreaming himself into existence next to the pocket monster again makes sense if we were writing a novel, but turns adventuring into a virtual...Jason Nelson2011-01-28T05:53:27ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#272011-01-28T02:10:50Z2011-01-28T02:10:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean Huguenard wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <b>Dreamer (Summoner)</b>
</p>
Scholars and mystics claim that the strangest and most fantastical experiences can be found in one’s dreams. No one knows this better than the dreamer, whose guardian eidolon walks the earth while its master slumbers.
<br />
<b>Eidolon</b>: The dreamer’s eidolon functions as the summoner’s eidolon, except that it may only be summoned if the dreamer is asleep or unconscious; after the dreamer is asleep or unconscious for one minute, the eidolon may be summoned as a free action. If the dreamer wakes up or is killed, his eidolon is immediately banished. </blockquote><p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Disclaimer:
</p>
You should know the drill by now, but in case you missed it the first time round, Ask A RPGSupersuccubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus: [Spoiler omitted] ;) </span> </p>
<p><b>Would you want this person sitting next to you as a guest at a formal evening dress dinner party? </b>
<br />
Oh yes... I'm always extremely happy to meet <i>any</i> specialist practitioner of conjuration or summoning magic up at close quarters when they don't have a magic circle or binding charm to protect them. </p>
<p><b>How effective a flower-picker does this person seem likely to be?</b>
<br />
Flower-picker? How about how many tooth picks does he make as a measure of effectiveness? Do you know how many tooth-picks you can make out of the average male or female humanoid adult? </p>
<p><b>Could you hire one person like this to do a better job than one other trained mercenary and/or to do the jobs of two (or more) other trained mercenaries?</b>
<br />
Reining in my instinctive prejudice against this character and all his kind for a moment, I concede he probably does make a better night-watchmen than most. You might in fact say he's trained for one of the relatively few careers which requires regularly falling asleep on the job as part of the job description. Not only that but he's contributing 100% of the time, twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five (or whatever orbital/rotational cycle is appropriate to your world) days a year. If he's not up swinging his sword and firing his crossbow or spells at something, than his eidolon is on the prowl. He Never Stops Going. Let me repeat that. <b>HE NEVER STOPS GOING.</b> </p>
<p><b>Other comments?</b>
<br />
The •GOOD• thing about the men and women who train as 'Summoners' from a succubus' point of view is that once they're asleep or unconscious that annoying guardian thing is •gone•. At that point a succubus can do whatever she wants to a summoner (and whilst there are a number of amusing options which present themselves, to be frank killing the summoner there and then with a minimum of trimmings is the safest option). Unfortunately, a Dreamer falling asleep is the point at which his or her annoying pet comes out to play...
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I have had a number of friends seriously injured or indeed nearly killed by Dreamers - or to be more accurate by the eidolon companions of Dreamers. Whilst there are exquisite fates on the lower planes awaiting most conjuration or summoning specialists in their afterlives, something needs to be done about those who are still alive who train Dreamers. </p>
<p><b>Desirability: </b>
<br />
Snack. With extreme prejudice. Or bodyguard. (But the latter said only very grudgingly and through gritted teeth.) </p>
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Further Disclaimer:
<br />
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (with half an eye on Lord Orcus) would like to clarify that mortal voters should probably rely on more than just her own (impeccable) assessments in making up their minds on how to vote. Thank You. </span></p>Sean Huguenard wrote:Dreamer (Summoner)
Scholars and mystics claim that the strangest and most fantastical experiences can be found in one’s dreams. No one knows this better than the dreamer, whose guardian eidolon walks the earth while its master slumbers.
Eidolon: The dreamer’s eidolon functions as the summoner’s eidolon, except that it may only be summoned if the dreamer is asleep or unconscious; after the dreamer is asleep or unconscious for one minute, the eidolon may be summoned as a...Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)2011-01-28T02:10:50ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Nick Bolhuishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#252011-01-27T19:26:01Z2011-01-27T19:26:01Z<p>I really like the summoner class, and really tried to come up with an archetype of my own here. But it's pretty hard. I applaud your efforts with one of the toughest classes to archetype, but you really fell down on mechanics here. I didn't even think of safe adventuring when I first read this through, all I thought was "but now you only get one of them at a time." Having your eidolon only available when you are not removes all capacity for cooperative tactics. You can't buff or heal him. It also really screws with party dynamics, since you're effectively active 24 hours a day, which demands more attention be placed on you than on other party members.</p>I really like the summoner class, and really tried to come up with an archetype of my own here. But it's pretty hard. I applaud your efforts with one of the toughest classes to archetype, but you really fell down on mechanics here. I didn't even think of safe adventuring when I first read this through, all I thought was "but now you only get one of them at a time." Having your eidolon only available when you are not removes all capacity for cooperative tactics. You can't buff or heal him. It...Nick Bolhuis2011-01-27T19:26:01ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Nicholas Heroldhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#242011-01-27T17:45:09Z2011-01-27T17:45:09Z<p>Yeah, this isn't doing it for me. The eidolon getting to run around with the caster miles away and asleep = bad game design, because there's no sense of danger. The eidolon and summoner never interacting because only one of them's on the board at once = bad game design, because so many class features fall by the wayside.</p>
<p>I agree that it's an interesting plot device and would make for an unusual and memorable character in a novel. But this isn't a novel; it's a game. I will not be voting for this entry.</p>Yeah, this isn't doing it for me. The eidolon getting to run around with the caster miles away and asleep = bad game design, because there's no sense of danger. The eidolon and summoner never interacting because only one of them's on the board at once = bad game design, because so many class features fall by the wayside.
I agree that it's an interesting plot device and would make for an unusual and memorable character in a novel. But this isn't a novel; it's a game. I will not be voting for...Nicholas Herold2011-01-27T17:45:09ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Wolfboyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#232011-01-27T17:07:20Z2011-01-27T17:07:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
... Play a Small summoner, have your friends put you in a bag of holding except for your head, and your eidolon is an immortal combat monster.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Or wear a <i>helm of underwater action</i>.Sean K Reynolds wrote:... Play a Small summoner, have your friends put you in a bag of holding except for your head, and your eidolon is an immortal combat monster.
Or wear a helm of underwater action.Wolfboy2011-01-27T17:07:20ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Nicolas Quimbyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#222011-01-27T15:35:31Z2011-01-27T15:35:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Steven T. Helt wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. </blockquote><p>Mine was a powerful but hostile eidolon (a "bound demon") who wouldn't mind murdering his keeper. You plop him down into the middle of a group of enemies, let him cause as much havoc as you dare, and then unsummon him before he has time to reach you. I ran into trouble in that the eidolon's behavior was too hard to define and asked too much of the GM.
<p>Fun to tinker with indeed, but also tricky. After all, getting the class right in the first place took a lot of trial and error.</p>
<p>On reflection I actually do respect the goal of making it so that the eidolon is the real adventurer (and then having a shadow-you to serve as the eidolon's eidolon; that's pretty cute). It just doesn't really account for the disposability of eidolons or the hassle of having a sleeping body around. </p>
<p>(I do like the 'riposted eidolon', by the way; almost tempted to just play it as a refluffing of the standard arrangement)</p>Steven T. Helt wrote:One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering.
Mine was a powerful but hostile eidolon (a "bound demon") who wouldn't mind murdering his keeper. You plop him down into the middle of a group of enemies, let him cause as much havoc as you dare, and then unsummon...Nicolas Quimby2011-01-27T15:35:31ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Steven Helthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#212011-01-27T15:16:04Z2011-01-27T15:16:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Curaigh wrote:</div><blockquote> Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck. </blockquote><p>One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. I just think this presentation is not the way.Curaigh wrote:Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.
One of my final four archetypes to submit had I advance was a riposted eidolon - an outsider that took control of the rookie dill weed that summoned him and bound him for life. I really like the idea of the summoner and agree it is ripe for some fun tinkering. I just think this presentation is...Steven Helt2011-01-27T15:16:04ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Steven Helthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#202011-01-27T15:12:10Z2011-01-27T15:12:10Z<p>The whole point of the summoner is you get to play a mean combat monster designed by you, AND the spellcasting support that keeps it going. While thematically it's nat, this idea that the dreamer dreams a monstrous self and his self manifest to do justice/evil/mayhem in the real world, the entire flavor of the class is disrupted. There can now be no planar travel, the eidolon won't heal - it just blows.</p>
<p>Moreover, there really aren't any design choices. I can sleep while the dude I'd control anyway does the same stuff.</p>
<p>It's weird. Anyone who attempts an archetype for one of the new classes deserves at least a little credit, of course. But then the summoner and alchemist have the most actual class features to replace, presumably making them the easiest.</p>The whole point of the summoner is you get to play a mean combat monster designed by you, AND the spellcasting support that keeps it going. While thematically it's nat, this idea that the dreamer dreams a monstrous self and his self manifest to do justice/evil/mayhem in the real world, the entire flavor of the class is disrupted. There can now be no planar travel, the eidolon won't heal - it just blows.
Moreover, there really aren't any design choices. I can sleep while the dude I'd control...Steven Helt2011-01-27T15:12:10ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Nicolas Quimbyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#192011-01-27T13:45:56Z2011-01-27T13:45:56Z<p>I'm a sucker for dream-magic, and I quite like the vision here, but it IS pretty bad for the game. I would enjoy reading a story about this character, and I'd love to use him as an NPC, but I don't think I would want to adventure with him.</p>I'm a sucker for dream-magic, and I quite like the vision here, but it IS pretty bad for the game. I would enjoy reading a story about this character, and I'd love to use him as an NPC, but I don't think I would want to adventure with him.Nicolas Quimby2011-01-27T13:45:56ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Curaighhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#182011-01-27T07:47:54Z2011-01-27T07:47:54Z<p>Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.</p>Summoner was a great choice, though I have to agree with Mark this is someone wanting to play an eidelon, not a summoner. Which would be an interesting twist on the class... good luck.Curaigh2011-01-27T07:47:54ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Russ Taylorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#172011-01-27T04:16:08Z2011-01-27T04:16:08Z<p>I too immediately thought "it's the Decker for Pathfinder!" That isn't a good thing, as decking was widely derided for almost requiring most of a group to sit on their hands. I'll go ahead and disagree with Neil on having your allies putting you to sleep be an option, though. Too easier to wake up the summoner, or just whack him with a coup. Carrying around in a backpack, though...</p>
<p>I like the general idea, but like the decker, I see it as a game killer. And as Neil said, this resembles an item the judges warned against. Full disclosure: in my first Paizo turnover, I did a "act while sleeping" item. They're cool, they just don't work out.</p>
<p>I'm reluctantly putting this in my maybe pile for now, off the strength of your cloak.</p>I too immediately thought "it's the Decker for Pathfinder!" That isn't a good thing, as decking was widely derided for almost requiring most of a group to sit on their hands. I'll go ahead and disagree with Neil on having your allies putting you to sleep be an option, though. Too easier to wake up the summoner, or just whack him with a coup. Carrying around in a backpack, though...
I like the general idea, but like the decker, I see it as a game killer. And as Neil said, this resembles an...Russ Taylor2011-01-27T04:16:08ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Starglimhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#162011-01-26T22:10:28Z2011-01-26T22:10:28Z<p><b>Name and concept:</b> It's an intriguing idea, perhaps very narrow as the basis for a class (though I might say the same about the summoner itself).
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<b>Archetype mechanics, expression of the concept:</b> Unconscious is not the same as asleep, as I've argued at length elsewhere. The one-minute delay before the eidolon appears at least seems to recognise the potential difficulties of this interpretation.
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The distance limitation either doesn't affect game play or requires the GM to define facts about quite a wide area that could otherwise remain hazy. I doubt that the eidolon could reach the more distant limits using its normal movement rate without raising serious questions about the dreamer weakening or dying from starvation.
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Increasing penalties to awaken by level <i>could</i> be an interesting reversion to some ideas of much earlier sword and sorcery.
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<b>Wider relationships:</b> It taps into some really iconic fantasy themes.
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I have to agree with others' concerns about its effect on game play. Inherently it requires the player to monopolise the GM's time once a game day and can't apply the character's major class ability in ordinary adventuring time (until 12th level, then the dreamer gets to adventure as normal while regaining spells).</p>
<p>This is a fantasy trope that I really like to see whenever designers find ways to bring it in. It's well executed in detail. However, this is an exercise of design for a game, not of abstract writing, and I don't think the author has thought through its implications in a game environment. That's an essential skill to write an adventure.</p>Name and concept: It's an intriguing idea, perhaps very narrow as the basis for a class (though I might say the same about the summoner itself).
Archetype mechanics, expression of the concept: Unconscious is not the same as asleep, as I've argued at length elsewhere. The one-minute delay before the eidolon appears at least seems to recognise the potential difficulties of this interpretation.
The distance limitation either doesn't affect game play or requires the GM to define facts about quite...Starglim2011-01-26T22:10:28ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Swamp Druidhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#152011-01-26T19:50:47Z2011-01-26T19:50:47Z<p>I think the theme is very interesting, but I don't like the implementation.</p>
<p>I think this may end up being a hassle for a GM if the character is effectively doing stuff at night while other characters are sleeping. Also, I'm not sure the other players will enjoy this.</p>I think the theme is very interesting, but I don't like the implementation.
I think this may end up being a hassle for a GM if the character is effectively doing stuff at night while other characters are sleeping. Also, I'm not sure the other players will enjoy this.Swamp Druid2011-01-26T19:50:47ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Matthew Morrishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#142011-01-26T16:17:37Z2011-01-26T16:17:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Hal Maclean wrote:</div><blockquote><p> GMs take note. This concept has a lot of potential if you apply it to an NPC.</p>
<p>You thought the guy who didn't know he was a lycanthrope was an interesting NPC to drop into an adventure? Imagine the guy who doesn't realize that his nightmare is running amuck? </p>
<p>I don't know if I'd let a player take this but I'm going to use it for an adventure or campaign one of these days. </blockquote><p>We call that a Phystic, or an Altairan creature from the Id :-)
<p>Matt would agree that this is more a plot device than a Summoner. Throw summon spells while awake, let fido roam while you're asleep.</p>
<p>Unfortunately Matt fell asleep and his Eidolon is writing this post.</p>
<p>Neither of us can recommend this for advancment.</p>Hal Maclean wrote:GMs take note. This concept has a lot of potential if you apply it to an NPC.
You thought the guy who didn't know he was a lycanthrope was an interesting NPC to drop into an adventure? Imagine the guy who doesn't realize that his nightmare is running amuck?
I don't know if I'd let a player take this but I'm going to use it for an adventure or campaign one of these days.
We call that a Phystic, or an Altairan creature from the Id :-) Matt would agree that this is more a...Matthew Morris2011-01-26T16:17:37ZRe: Forums: Round 2: Design an archetype: Dreamer (Summoner)Hal Macleanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqyi?Dreamer#132011-01-26T15:38:03Z2011-01-26T15:38:03Z<p>GMs take note. This concept has a lot of potential if you apply it to an NPC.</p>
<p>You thought the guy who didn't know he was a lycanthrope was an interesting NPC to drop into an adventure? Imagine the guy who doesn't realize that his nightmare is running amuck? </p>
<p>I don't know if I'd let a player take this but I'm going to use it for an adventure or campaign one of these days.</p>GMs take note. This concept has a lot of potential if you apply it to an NPC.
You thought the guy who didn't know he was a lycanthrope was an interesting NPC to drop into an adventure? Imagine the guy who doesn't realize that his nightmare is running amuck?
I don't know if I'd let a player take this but I'm going to use it for an adventure or campaign one of these days.Hal Maclean2011-01-26T15:38:03Z