Pathfinder outselling D&D?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Interesting tidbit to run through the usual set of debate/qualifiers (e.g., does not include online revenue, sources may not be accurate, etc.), but, still, our good friend and RPG Superstar Judge casually dropped the following bomb in his ENWorld column:

Ryan Dancey wrote:


But there is a silver lining in every cloud. Pathfinder from Paizo couldn’t exist without the OGL and the D20 System Reference Document. And according to my industry sources, it’s outselling Dungeons & Dragons a feat (no pun intended) I would have considered almost impossible 10 years ago. Furthermore the older generation of tabletop RPG players have been asserting their own passion through the “Old School Renaissance”, essentially rebuilding a very frayed social network around a particular style of play that the industry hasn’t well served for nearly 25 years using the OGL and the various Reference Documents to reverse engineer games in the style of the 70’s and early 80s.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/columns/299860-4-hours-w-rsd-who-am-i.html

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Must we deal in hearsay? :)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Must we deal in hearsay? :)

I am providing it as...uh...evidence that Ryan Dancey said something in an article, not to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

It can be picked apart in the usual ways, but I thought it was interesting.

Also, hooray for Paizo.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Must we deal in hearsay? :)

It is the internet, what else would we deal in? ;D

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

ALE AND WHORES!


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Must we deal in hearsay? :)

Technically, we call this totem-pole hearsay. (Sebastian is quoting Ryan Dancey who is quoting "industry sources", who themselves probably lack a foundation.)

Still good for showing what Mr. Dancey believes, though, and that's good enough for me. :)

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Must we deal in hearsay? :)

I am providing it as...uh...evidence that Ryan Dancey said something in an article, not to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

It can be picked apart in the usual ways, but I thought it was interesting.

Also, hooray for Paizo.

As only a lawyer could wriggle! :P

Lets hope the news is true! (The outselling part more than the Ryan Dancey said something part.)


I could believe this with WOTC moving more and more to a Board game based game and releasing less and less role playing products


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Must we deal in hearsay? :)

I read that as, "Must we deal in heresy?" the first time. It made the whole conversation much funnier!

I've stuck with a number of games through multiple editions, and am rarely reluctant to upgrade with the times. As someone who had high hopes for D&D 4th edition, I was disappointed by the final publication. I t switched systems because Pathfinder is the superior product.

I sincerely hope that Paizo does well enough financially with the Pathfinder line that they make another version, with as much careful attention as they gave their first. I'm curious to see where D&D goes next, but I'm excited to see where Pathfinder goes next!


It doesn't surprise me, Ryan Dancey saying it only cements my suspicions into fact :D


I read it on the internet, but it was not on g4 so I am not certain its true


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Must we deal in hearsay? :)

EH? You say Paizo is coming out with a hairspray?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Aren't the next ICv2 rankings due out any day now?


Vic Wertz wrote:
Aren't the next ICv2 rankings due out any day now?

Know something you'd care to share, Vic?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Aren't the next ICv2 rankings due out any day now?
Know something you'd care to share, Vic?

I know they published the Q3 rankings on October 7, so the Q4 rankings *should* be out any day!


*You* know what I meant!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Vic Wertz wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Aren't the next ICv2 rankings due out any day now?
Know something you'd care to share, Vic?
I know they published the Q3 rankings on October 7, so the Q4 rankings *should* be out any day!

Sigh. Their site says it ships February 14.

Contributor

It's not hearsay (or heresy) - as of Q3 2010, it was tied for D&D.


Oh the pain...


THIS thread made me think of this thread.....

I liked how he referred to the OGL in the past tense....and "I think it served its purpose" wot wot.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

THIS thread made me think of this thread.....

I liked how he referred to the OGL in the past tense....and "I think it served its purpose" wot wot.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I should be eating some pie if Ryan's comments are true...


Sebastian wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

THIS thread made me think of this thread.....

I liked how he referred to the OGL in the past tense....and "I think it served its purpose" wot wot.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I should be eating some pie if Ryan's comments are true...

At least you can admit it. I think the worst is when they do this number: "oh. Did I say that? well....I'll just....uuuuh,,, disappear and pretend like the thread doesn't exist any more....yeah. It's virtually the same as being right..."

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
At least you can admit it. I think the worst is when they do this number: "oh. Did I say that? well....I'll just....uuuuh,,, disappear and pretend like the thread doesn't exist any more....yeah. It's virtually the same as being right..."

Yeah, I think I had a large number of "insightful" comments that were completely wrong. I'm pretty sure at some point I stated:

4e would be awesome and succeed.
No one would be able to successfully use the OGL to create a successor to 3e.
Even if someone did, it would still have the same problems with backwards compatibility as 4e.
No one would ever hire Mark Moreland for any job. Ever.*
Online tabletop would be the Best. Thing. Ever.
We should all support 4e because if D&D failed, so failed the hobby.

I'm sure there's other stuff, said with great specificity and gusto.

I think I'm going to predict Paizo's abrupt and titanic failure this year - that would practically guarantee them continued success.

Hmmm...crow...

But tastey crow. Never been so happy to be wrong.

*Okay, I may not have said that, but I'd have laughed at the idea of someone on the messageboards doing so much great work tracking Golarion, writing Society adventures, and dominating PaizoCon trivia contests that they'd be hired by Paizo. I'm still jaw-droppingly impressed.

Liberty's Edge

Amazon RPG Sales Rank

Core book still at #4 and Bestiary 2 is #2

#1 and #3 aren't even RPGs so really #1 and #2!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dancey is mean. Wizards of the Coast Community Hub ... errr, sorry, I mean EnWorld gives him a column and he drops an a-bomb.

Most Dangerous Man in Gaming, certainly.

Grand Lodge

So I looked it up and Pathfinder debuted at Position 2 in Q3 2009 and has stayed there until they tied in q3 2010 where they tied up with D&D.
WOOTWOOT


God, I love being right. This must be how Ryan Dancey feels! (And Sebastian eating crow has to make this one of the most perfect, non-Christmas days ever.)

Gorbacz: As in lean, mean, RPG machine?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

<puts cynic hat on>

Of course, this could also be due to WotC basically abandoning the print market since they are laughing all the way to the DDI bank.

Just sayin...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
"Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Gorbacz: As in lean, mean, RPG machine?

He's super cool and he knows kung fu!

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

(And Sebastian eating crow has to make this one of the most perfect, non-Christmas days ever.)

Did I type "crow"? Because I meant "cow," as in a steak.

I'd say it was a mistake, but I think it's much more likely that the PMG edited my post.

Also, I don't recall typing the post to which you are referring. You must be thinking of another Sebastian.


jreyst wrote:

<puts cynic hat on>

Of course, this could also be due to WotC basically abandoning the print market since they are laughing all the way to the DDI bank.

Just sayin...

Yeah...I don't see a business laughing all the way to the bank AND making erratic business decisions. That's more the behavior of lottery winners...


::Skates up to line, pirouettes, then skates away::

You guys crack me up.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

Removed a post. No reason to bring up people who aren't participating in the conversation.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gary Teter wrote:
Removed a post. No reason to bring up people who aren't participating in the conversation.

Killjoy. Are Jesus, Hitler and Gary Gygax out of question as well ? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Is it bad that I think I know who was mentioned?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Is it bad that I think I know who was mentioned?

Nah, it's not the dude, it's the other dude.

Sovereign Court

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Is it bad that I think I know who was mentioned?

I think I'm thinking of the same person. What baffles me is why he was mentioned in this context...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh, my mistake.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

jreyst wrote:

<puts cynic hat on>

Of course, this could also be due to WotC basically abandoning the print market since they are laughing all the way to the DDI bank.

Just sayin...

They haven't abandoned the print market *yet*, and Ryan's not talking about the future.

Shadow Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
ALE AND WHORES!

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean good job Pathfinders keep it up and now to the A&W. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I love root beer!

Silver Crusade

I see it happening. I haven't played 4E more than half a dozen times but I'm in a Pathfinder PBP and weekly game and a Bi-weekly OSR game. I'm not looking for an edition war here. I'm just seeing change in the gaming culture and it's certainly a surprising direction.

I get a vibe very much like the late 90's. D&D is in a weakening edition. Other games are coming into their own and changing the gaming culture. The question is, with the OGL, SRD and games like Pathfinder will D&D need saving this time, or has Dancey's plan already prevented another catastrophe like late 2E?


Well, Hasbros overall sales are lower than expected due to the decline of US and Canadian sales - from 1.5 billion to 1.3 billion US-$, more than 10%. link. I don´t say they are tanking, but down by more than 10% surely is not trivial.

Stefan

EDIT: A shop owner complains about WotCs policy of not announcing the cancellation of the minis line and some books more directly, but rather burying the news in a lenghty article on their website. Announcing more digital products does nothing to help endearing WotC to this guy, and as a final statement, he is not looking forward to 2011. link. While all of this is just one more or less ranfom opinion, I think it is interesting to read. The less-than-stellar communication from WotC sounds awfully familiar, btw.


Shadewest wrote:
The question is, with the OGL, SRD and games like Pathfinder will D&D need saving this time, or has Dancey's plan already prevented another catastrophe like late 2E?

To say that D&D might need saving is reading in tea leaves ATM, I´d say. I rather see D&D morphing into some kind of board/tabletop game more than it is right now already and moving ever further away from the traditional RPG style, as this seems to be somewhat successful. Saving implies somebody asking for help, and I don´t see this happening with WotC/Hasbro - like pointed out elsewhere, they would probably rather shelf the brand for an indeterminate time than sell it or even licence it.

Stefan


It's not something I find surprising. Pathfinder adds value to my library, instead of tearing it up by the metaphorical roots. Who wouldn't go for a product that protects and enhances their investment, especially in these cash-poor days?

Contributor

Well, with a "return to the 80s" style games, he's right on the money. I've been running games since the 80s and we still do the same format, even if my games have twenty and thirty somethings in them as well as the old guard. The twenty and thirty somethings like the old style play, and the only difference is that most of my players have their characters on their laptops right now. Then again, that isn't as new as it sounds. Back in the 80's, I had a friend who kept her character on a luggable computer she brought to game (formatted in WordStar no less) and another DM who ran her games using an early Mac, complete with sound event files.

Honestly the transition at WotC more towards board games reminds me of Games Workshop when they decided to revamp the Talisman boardgame and remade it with less fun complexity and with more boring miniatures to pimp their miniatures line. I think someone at WotC went "Yay! Boardgames!" and everyone had to fall in line, regardless of whether the boardgames are what you'd want to play.

That said, I know some people who play 4e and are happy with it. I'm just not one of them.


Just to double check, this is the same Dancey that for the past several years said tabletop games were due to die tomorrow, right? The one who two years ago said WotC itself would be shutting down and 4e would choke and die tomorrow as well?

As yes, his "insider sources." That he's choosing not to name. Or his "numbers" that he won't quote or actually show.

See those quotation marks? Imagine I made them in real life. Only with those big novelty hands, to sort of reflect on how "genuine" I find this.

Edit: His support for Pathfinder is hilarious, as before Pathfinder came out he was preaching the death of tabletop games and how 3.x was terrible. Hey, whatever lets you snipe at WotC, eh, Dancey? Nothing personal though, right?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Between ICv2 report of PF equaling D&D in sales and recent news of Hasbro profits declining in q4 AND the fact that half of D&D product line got axed this month, I'd give Ryan's musing two thoughts.

Dark Archive

Sebastian wrote:

Yeah, I think I had a large number of "insightful" comments that were completely wrong. I'm pretty sure at some point I stated:

4e would be awesome and succeed.
No one would be able to successfully use the OGL to create a successor to 3e.
Even if someone did, it would still have the same problems with backwards compatibility as 4e.
No one would ever hire Mark Moreland for any job. Ever.*
Online tabletop would be the Best. Thing. Ever.
We should all support 4e because if D&D failed, so failed the hobby.

I'm sure there's other stuff, said with great specificity and gusto.

I think I'm going to predict Paizo's abrupt and titanic failure this year - that would practically guarantee them continued success.

Hmmm...crow...

But tastey crow. Never been so happy to be wrong.

*Okay, I may not have said that, but I'd have laughed at the idea of someone on the messageboards doing so much great work tracking Golarion, writing Society adventures, and dominating PaizoCon trivia contests that they'd be hired by Paizo. I'm still jaw-droppingly impressed.

Yup. I remember that in a thread about the 4E announcement (one of the two topics I actually posted in, before the flame wars went out of control) you promised a slice of crow pie to me and to everybody who wasn't 100% sure of the awesome onslaught about to be brought in by the new edition of the game.

The problem - to me, at least - was that "crow pie" was a completely new locution, English not being my primary language and all, and I didn't really get the whole thing until some time later.

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