I don't use it, because I don't compare people to furries. Not even 4E players.Furries have sex.... ;)
Yeah but its furry sex :P
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Alright, my apologies, I didn't mean for it to go there.
Suffice it to say that my area has pretty much abandoned 4e. And the direction it appears to be heading does not surprise any one of us. But, we are also a group that prefer to sit down at a table together and play a pen and paper game. 4e appears to be heading in a different direction. That's fine, its just not for us. Especially now that my daughter and her friends are starting to pick up on Pathfinder.
As a side note, if anyone is interested in purchasing some 4e books I have the first few that came out. PHB, DMG, MM and a couple of others for sale. Cheap. :-)
I have followed this Debate I belive the matter is settled but i would like to put my 2 cents in if thats ok if not don't read the rest of my post
Authors write for many reasons depending on these reasons and the type of environment they are in determines a lot on the final prouduct of any script and in the end they are all a expression of that person's current state of mind. Regardless if you like it hate it or just dont care one way or another it does not matter you as a reader have no input in anything the writer does unless asked and even then your opinion is normaly not worth much if anything at all.
I write and if 99.9% of the world flamed it literally or figuratively I as a creator as a god of my own mind, my own world and imagination i would continue. Sure I'm not going to get rich make movies or get any of those fancy awards but thats not what i was writing for to begin with and hopefuly i could inspire something somewhere if only in one person.
The point of Trash is to make something of it.
As a side note, if anyone is interested in purchasing some 4e books I have the first few that came out. PHB, DMG, MM and a couple of others for sale. Cheap. :-)
Unfortunaly those have been so heavily errata they are pretty much just worth the pretty picture in them.
I just ebayed mine away (PHB, MM, DMG, Screen) for the equivalent of 30 USD. So there is still someone interested.
Aren't the next ICv2 rankings due out any day now?
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I know they published the Q3 rankings on October 7, so the Q4 rankings *should* be out any day!
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Sigh. Their site says it ships February 14.
Shouldn't that Q4 report be out by now? I've been keeping an eye out for it, but haven't seen it yet. :P
Where on their site did you find that release date?
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Shouldn't that Q4 report be out by now? I've been keeping an eye out for it, but haven't seen it yet. :PTop 5 Roleplaying Games – Q4 2010
1 -- Dungeons & Dragons -- Wizards of the Coast
2 -- Pathfinder -- Paizo Publishing
3 -- Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch -- Fantasy Flight Games
4 -- Dragon Age -- Green Ronin Publishing
5 -- Mutants and Masterminds, inc. DC -- Green Ronin Publishing
From what I understand Gamma world sales counts towards D&D sales, I find it odd it is not the same for Green Ronin with M&M and Dragon age.
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From what I understand Gamma world sales counts towards D&D sales, I find it odd it is not the same for Green Ronin with M&M and Dragon age.Gamma World is part of the D&D line. It says so on the box, it's called "D&D Gamma World Roleplaying Game", and its rules are obviously a subset of D&D. DC Adventures is the same, using the M&M rules ("a complete super-hero RPG based on the award-winning Mutants & Masterminds system"). Dragon Age is its own game with its own system. DH, RT & DW are all games in the 40k system/line. Nothing odd about it.
That is a ploy by WotC to up their sales numbers/figures. To say that Gamma World is part of the D&D rule set is like saying that MOdern was part of it when it came out. (Yes I know they are from different companies but they also followed the same rules set at one point back in WotC's D20 days. Gamma World and D&D are no where near the same but having the same underlying rule set and slapping the name D&D on it makes it part of the D&D line?? does not make sense to me.
That is a ploy by WotC top up their sales numbers/figures. To say that Gamma World is part of the D&D rule set is like saying that MOdern was part of it when it came out. (Yes I know they are from different companies but they also followed the same rules set at one point back in WotC's D20 days. Gamma World and D&D are no where near the same but having the same underlying rule set and slapping the name D&D on it makes it part of the D&D line?? does not make sense to me.
Especially when Gamma World is specifically not considered a D&D setting, but a separate game compatible with 4E and the 4E SRD. Is every SRD compatible game part of the D&D line?
That is a ploy by WotC top up their sales numbers/figures. To say that Gamma World is part of the D&D rule set is like saying that MOdern was part of it when it came out. (Yes I know they are from different companies but they also followed the same rules set at one point back in WotC's D20 days. Gamma World and D&D are no where near the same but having the same underlying rule set and slapping the name D&D on it makes it part of the D&D line?? does not make sense to me.
it feels like part of the 4th edition landscape to me.
Does Gammaworld use the exact 4th edition rules or is a conversion like D20 modern compared to 3.x?
I think it is a ploy, but if the ruleset is the same they I would think it can be called 4th edition in the same sense the Ravenloth and Spelljammer were D&D. If it is close to 4th, but still different enough so you can't take a character from one and put it into the other then it is not the same game, no matter what label is applied to it.
Interesting tidbit to run through the usual set of debate/qualifiers (e.g., does not include online revenue, sources may not be accurate, etc.), but, still, our good friend and RPG Superstar Judge casually dropped the following bomb in his ENWorld column:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/columns/299860-4-hours-w-rsd-who-am-i.html
But there is a silver lining in every cloud. Pathfinder from Paizo couldn’t exist without the OGL and the D20 System Reference Document. And according to my industry sources, it’s outselling Dungeons & Dragons a feat (no pun intended) I would have considered almost impossible 10 years ago. Furthermore the older generation of tabletop RPG players have been asserting their own passion through the “Old School Renaissance”, essentially rebuilding a very frayed social network around a particular style of play that the industry hasn’t well served for nearly 25 years using the OGL and the various Reference Documents to reverse engineer games in the style of the 70’s and early 80s.
It would not surprise me if this were true. I'm a pretty mainstream D&D person.
I was the type of player that went with every new version of D&D since the Basic Red boxed set over the course of 20 plus years. I loved AD&D. I remember the old Unearthed Arcana which I loved. I enjoyed 2nd edition. I enjoyed 3rd edition. I loved Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. Played with Planescape.
I use modules over homemade adventures. I was a constant purchaser of D&D products, sometimes only for reading. I went from TSR to WotC to Hasbro.
Suffice it say I think I'm a pretty dedicated player who spent a great deal of money on D&D and followed it like a hawk. I'm probably the most dedicated to D&D in my group at this point save for perhaps one other guy. Most of my group follows my lead as far as the game goes.
I gave 4E a real try. I purchased the main book and a module or two. Even bought Martial Powers. 4E just wasn't right for me. At some point I the classic line from Network "I'm mad as hell. I'm not going to take it anymore" made me give up D&D and stopped gaming for a while. I utterly despised 4E and thought it took all the flavor and life out of D&D I had come to love. D&D had become its own fantasy world and I had come to love that comfortable fantasy world. 4E destroyed everything I loved about D&D and made it unfamiliar and uninteresting like a watery soup with no flavor.
If not for Pathfinder, I wouldn't be playing any version of D&D. I thank the gaming gods there were other people out there looking to preserve the traditions and tropes of D&D I had come to enjoy over the years.
I really thought that I would be stuck with no new books and no new version of D&D after 4E came out. It was the end of an era for me or so I thought. Here came Paizo with their old school thinking about adventures and new school tweaking of the rules. And I couldn't be happier. I hope they do outsell 4E. Maybe WotC would learn not to mess with tradition. It's like New Coke versus Classic Coke. New Coke lost out and finally they had to return to Classic Coke. Maybe the next version of D&D by WotC will realize that traditional D&D is the best and that new fangled 4E thing is only a fad.
Let Wizards keep their 4e as it is and the D&D brand name, too! That's their thing now! Classic D&D feel and tropes are in great hands with Paizo and Pathfinder!
I'm not too surprised at those figures. Essentials and Gamma World did well for WotC. I can see why those figures count together, they really are the same rules. You can run Gamma World with the Rules Compendium and barely notice a difference. In fact, Gamma World made me look at 4E again.
My prediction for Q1 2011 is Pathfinder will rise to the top, partly because of a lack of releases for 4E. So far their 2011 release schedule looks weak. Paizo has Bestiary 2 (while released late Q4, a fair number of sales will be early Q1) and the World Guide. Plus all the normal APs and modules.
I'm a little sad Dresden Files dropped off the list, but they haven't actually released supplements so it doesn't surprise me. I'm happy to see Dragon Age is holding on strong. Can't wait for set 2.
I am not surprised to see D&D have more sales for Q4, especially with the new starter box on sale for the Christmas season, along with the new Gamma World. Just as I will not be surprised if PF has the most sales for Q1 going against very few releases for D&D.
From what I understand Gamma world sales counts towards D&D sales, I find it odd it is not the same for Green Ronin with M&M and Dragon age.Shouldn't that Q4 report be out by now? I've been keeping an eye out for it, but haven't seen it yet. :PTop 5 Roleplaying Games – Q4 2010
1 -- Dungeons & Dragons -- Wizards of the Coast
2 -- Pathfinder -- Paizo Publishing
3 -- Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch -- Fantasy Flight Games
4 -- Dragon Age -- Green Ronin Publishing
5 -- Mutants and Masterminds, inc. DC -- Green Ronin Publishing
If that's the case then I also wonder if the Boardgmes count toward those numbers as well...
Trying to remember when the Wrath was released?
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Gamma World being bearing the name of D&D is WotC pushing their numbers to make it look like they have better sales is all. Just because Gamma World has the same underlying rule set does not make them the same game. The settings and genre are both COMPLETELY different. I say that D&D is a fantasy type of genre and Gamma World being Science Fiction.
The underlying rules while are most certainly 4.0, I would not say they are D&D though. Like I said earlier While Modern had the D20 rules they would not bear the name of D&D because they were not (also they were not part of the same company obviously, but it makes my point).
In Gamma World half the fun is character creation, and a lot of PC death is to be expected (which is sort of good since Characters can become boring quickly otherwise).
That sounds so not interesting. RPGs should encourage players identifying with their characters, emotionally investing into them.
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Gamma World being bearing the name of D&D is WotC pushing their numbers to make it look like they have better sales is all.
Hardly, more like the want to capitalise on the D&D brand name to encourage sales of the Gamma World game - its good marketing if it doesn't back fire.
IMHO the sales numbers that WotC likely care about are not the ones reported anecdotally over the internet but the ones they present internally to Hasbro - and the decision of whether to include Gamma World in with D&D or not won't be down to whether the Gamma World box set bears the D&D logo or not.
People really want to see Pathfinder outsell D&D it seems.
On the Paizo forums? SHOCKING!
People really want to see Pathfinder outsell D&D it seems.
Well, that would make a more interesting story than vice versa. "Goliath beats David" or "dog bites man" isn't terribly exciting.
I expected as much for Q4. It contains christmas after all and its easy for someone that hasn't been paying attention for 10-ish years to buy their kids/niece/nephew/grandkids/etc the red box set.
What I am looking for is all 4 quarters of 2011. Pathfinder's expected list of products (without 3pp) is twice as longs as D&D's and D&D has few major products coming out. I wouldn't be surprised that if 2 quarters Pathfinder held #1 and D&D held #2 (possibly even 3 quarters). With Red Box basically going unsupported in 2011 and no clear way to get gamers going from red box to core 4E, I don't expect those sales to translate into long term growth.
...4E destroyed everything I loved about D&D...
...If not for Pathfinder, I wouldn't be playing any version of D&D...
...I thank the gaming gods there were other people out there looking to preserve the traditions and tropes of D&D...
...Maybe WotC would learn not to mess with tradition...
...traditional D&D is the best and that new fangled 4E thing is only a fad...
Sharpens dagger in gleeful anticipation...
Sharpens dagger in gleeful anticipation......4E destroyed everything I loved about D&D...
...If not for Pathfinder, I wouldn't be playing any version of D&D...
...I thank the gaming gods there were other people out there looking to preserve the traditions and tropes of D&D...
...Maybe WotC would learn not to mess with tradition...
...traditional D&D is the best and that new fangled 4E thing is only a fad...
Wow, I don't even have to read the whole post anymore! Sergeant, you provide a valuable public service. I salute you.
This thread still exists? If only we could harness the power of impotent nerd rage.
This thread still exists? If only we could harness the power of impotent nerd rage.
I would be most powerful man in the universe. ;-)
Gamma World being bearing the name of D&D is WotC pushing their numbers to make it look like they have better sales is all.Hardly, more like the want to capitalise on the D&D brand name to encourage sales of the Gamma World game - its good marketing if it doesn't back fire.
IMHO the sales numbers that WotC likely care about are not the ones reported anecdotally over the internet but the ones they present internally to Hasbro - and the decision of whether to include Gamma World in with D&D or not won't be down to whether the Gamma World box set bears the D&D logo or not.
Which is Funny, because I love Gamma World, but not the d20 version and definitely not the 4e version, in fact GW4e makes me avoid it more.
Uh oh, Scott Betts is in the thread...*casts protection from fire* (JK man, I know you love you 4e... heh)
See I am just an interested observer. Does it matter to me if PF outsells D&D? Not really. Would it be interesting to see PF outsell D&D? On one hand yes (that's cool in the same way I think it would be coo if VCU won the final four), on the other no (the largest force in the RPG industry not being it's bestseller isn't a good sign). Although to be honest I have a hard time seeing D&D outsell Paizo for the first half of 2011, just due to number of releases, not to mention Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic vs. the slim pickings coming form WotC. As I said interested observer.
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People really want to see Pathfinder outsell D&D it seems.On the Paizo forums? SHOCKING!
Even more shocking is the excuses they'll use to justify why their predictions end up wrong, like 'WotC included Gamma World in the D&D numbers so they should be lower'. It's like the people who claim the Rapture is coming on May 25th, and the last time was a fluke due to 'miscalculations'.
People really want to see Pathfinder outsell D&D it seems.
People like this guy?
I hope people will read the post and not just look at the pretty charts.
I found the BDG guy's blog informative. His arguments about being an RPG arms dealer rather than a cheerleader are sound.
See I am just an interested observer. Does it matter to me if PF outsells D&D? Not really. Would it be interesting to see PF outsell D&D? On one hand yes (that's cool in the same way I think it would be coo if VCU won the final four), on the other no (the largest force in the RPG industry not being it's bestseller isn't a good sign). Although to be honest I have a hard time seeing D&D outsell Paizo for the first half of 2011, just due to number of releases, not to mention Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic vs. the slim pickings coming form WotC. As I said interested observer.
This... like it or not D&D is the name everyone knows(outside of the industry anyway.) It crashing and burning (which I still don't buy) is not a good thing for the industry as a whole. I make no bones about it, I do buy both sets of products.
Now while I'm leaning to PF right now, I do have to say the new version of Gamma World is sooooo much fun for a one-off:)
on the other no (the largest force in the RPG industry not being it's bestseller isn't a good sign).
Why is this? I have heard it before....but I just don't see it. Actualy it might be the best thing for the industry if D&D dies.
What do people outside the industry see D&D as. Here is what I hear from non-RPG players.
1) D&D is what those 'geeks' played in HS...
2) D&D is a waste of time...it is timwe to grow up...stop making make believe.
3) D&D is Satan.
4) Is Not D&D some crappy movie?
5) Is it not some computer game? (and this was before there was any direct D&D computer game).
So how is it it will 'kill' the industry if it goes away?
Is Not D&D some crappy movie?
Sadly, yes. :P
Seriously, I think the argument goes that without something putting up "D&D-like" sales numbers, big booksellers wouldn't even bother carrying RPGs at all. I believe implicit in the argument is that it is D&D coming crashing, and not a competitor coming ascending. We really have no way of knowing, since rankings don't tell one anything about the size of the market.
I could be completely wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten.
on the other no (the largest force in the RPG industry not being it's bestseller isn't a good sign).Why is this? I have heard it before....but I just don't see it. Actualy it might be the best thing for the industry if D&D dies.
What do people outside the industry see D&D as. Here is what I hear from non-RPG players.
1) D&D is what those 'geeks' played in HS...
2) D&D is a waste of time...it is time we to grow up...stop making make believe.
3) D&D is Satan.
4) Is Not D&D some crappy movie?
5) Is it not some computer game? (and this was before there was any direct D&D computer game).
So how is it it will 'kill' the industry if it goes away?
I wouldn't say it will kill the industry if it goes away, but D&D has been the largest gateway to rpgs for a long time. Having that ended doesn't seem healthy for the industry as a whole. D&D has a lot more name recognition then any other RPG (that isn't just a TV/Movie tie in) out there. I bet at least 90% of the people in the US wouldn't know what Pathfinder is, but I bet at least 50% have some crazy idea what D&D is.
Is Not D&D some crappy movie?Sadly, yes. :P
Seriously, I think the argument goes that without something putting up "D&D-like" sales numbers, big booksellers wouldn't even bother carrying RPGs at all. I believe implicit in the argument is that it is D&D coming crashing, and not a competitor coming ascending. We really have no way of knowing, since rankings don't tell one anything about the size of the market.
I could be completely wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten.
+1 to this as well, although I have no idea if WotC's sales have slowed or Paizo's have increased, or both.
I wouldn't say it will kill the industry if it goes away, but D&D has been the largest gateway to rpgs for a long time. Having that ended doesn't seem healthy for the industry as a whole. D&D has a lot more name recognition then any other RPG (that isn't just a TV/Movie tie in) out there. I bet at least 90% of the people in the US wouldn't know what Pathfinder is, but I bet at least 50% have some crazy idea what D&D is.
Well, things change. Back in the day, the company name "Polaroid" was synonymous with instant photos. They stopped producing their instant cameras a while ago, because of digital cameras.
Legendary media like video cassettes, audio tapes and vinyl discs are mostly gone, too (vinyl is still around because some people like to tell themselves that music sounds better on inferior media and want to feel superior to others, but that's all).
D&D might be the synonym for P&P RPGs as far as general public is concerned, but I don't see why that couldn't change.
Some might say that the Big Name is important for the RPG industry, but I'm not so sure. Maybe it's holding it back. Social inertia preventing the hobby from growing.
Maybe it's not RPGs that are associated with nerds, satanism and a lack of maturity. Maybe that's D&D. Maybe if D&D crashed and burned, the old stigmata would burn with it.
+1 to this as well, although I have no idea if WotC's sales have slowed or Paizo's have increased, or both.Is Not D&D some crappy movie?Sadly, yes. :P
Seriously, I think the argument goes that without something putting up "D&D-like" sales numbers, big booksellers wouldn't even bother carrying RPGs at all. I believe implicit in the argument is that it is D&D coming crashing, and not a competitor coming ascending. We really have no way of knowing, since rankings don't tell one anything about the size of the market.
I could be completely wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten.
The big book sellers are not doing so well (Borders)... I think that the digital model will be the future and tablets/e-readers will force a re-think of the current text to consumer model. 15 years from now dead tree will be a niche market or primarily based in third world countries where tech will be too expensive...
Both WOTBro and Paizo have strong models to cope with the digital age but... Like VHS and BetaMax it will be support, price of the product, ease of use and good marketing.
My memory says D&D has crashed and burned once already in the past. The apocalypse won't come if it happens again...even if the crashing and burning is bigger and brighter. The days of it being the gaming industry passed long ago, even if it has been the biggest single game on the block most of that time.
Even more shocking is the excuses they'll use to justify why their predictions end up wrong, like 'WotC included Gamma World in the D&D numbers so they should be lower'. It's like the people who claim the Rapture is coming on May 25th, and the last time was a fluke due to 'miscalculations'.People really want to see Pathfinder outsell D&D it seems.On the Paizo forums? SHOCKING!
Restated:
Paizo fans on a Paizo forum championing the success of a Paizo product dominating a competitor's product?
Not really shocking at all.
I've participated in a number of edition-war-esque threads on this forum, but it really is, I don't know, tasteless? I suppose to lambaste those fans for their fandom on said forum.
Whatever. It's never going to end, from either side.
Bye.
Maybe it's not RPGs that are associated with nerds, satanism and a lack of maturity. Maybe that's D&D. Maybe if D&D crashed and burned, the old stigmata would burn with it.
Back in the late 80's, a player and friend of mine had to quit playing D&D with us because his parents thought it was satanic/occult/of the devil. They had absolutely no problem with all of us putting away the D&D and monster minis and taking out V&V/MSH and the superhero minis....