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Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Andoran

I know we don't know if anything is legal out of the Bestiary II yet, and I know I most likely won't get a definite answer out of this question, but I was wondering from Hyrum/Mark if there was any chance at anything out of there becoming legal to summon, such as the new elementals or anything like that?

Paizo Employee ** Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are no alternate or expanded summon lists in the book itself, and we have no intention to create those lists specifically for Pathfinder Society.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Netherlands—Leiden

Mark Moreland wrote:
There are no alternate or expanded summon lists in the book itself, and we have no intention to create those lists specifically for Pathfinder Society.

In this post several things are mentioned:

Applying Entropic or Resolute templates instead of Celestial or Fiendish to summons (Entropic p. 292, Resolute p. 293)
Summoning Bestiary 2 elementals (p.114-p.121) as there is no text in the spell limiting it to the 4 basic elements

It seems to be in accordance with regular Pathfinder rules, so it's just saying those are legal in Pathfinder Society to make them legal. No additional rules/lists required!

Andoran

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
There are no alternate or expanded summon lists in the book itself, and we have no intention to create those lists specifically for Pathfinder Society.

In this post several things are mentioned:

Applying Entropic or Resolute templates instead of Celestial or Fiendish to summons (Entropic p. 292, Resolute p. 293)
Summoning Bestiary 2 elementals (p.114-p.121) as there is no text in the spell limiting it to the 4 basic elements

It seems to be in accordance with regular Pathfinder rules, so it's just saying those are legal in Pathfinder Society to make them legal. No additional rules/lists required!

So, I would argue that part of that is correct...by my reading of the CRB, I should be able to summon Bestiary 2 Elementals, as it merely calls out "Elemental (version)".

I don't think I should be able to use Entropic or Resolute with the current rules, however (unfortunately), since the SM table says "this creature is summoned with the celestial...[or] fiendish template".

Pointing these specifics out, Mark, is it fair to assume that Bestiary 2 elementals can be summoned in PFS, since the CRB seems to allow for it?

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Netherlands—Leiden

Ricky Bobby wrote:
Pointing these specifics out, Mark, is it fair to assume that Bestiary 2 elementals can be summoned in PFS, since the CRB seems to allow for it?

As the book is not mentioned in Chapter 13:Additional Resources of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play it's currently impossible.

Andoran

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Ricky Bobby wrote:
Pointing these specifics out, Mark, is it fair to assume that Bestiary 2 elementals can be summoned in PFS, since the CRB seems to allow for it?
As the book is not mentioned in Chapter 13:Additional Resources of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play it's currently impossible.

I would argue against that line of reasoning. The Bestiary entry in the Guide has nothing about summoned creatures, yet we are allowed to summon them.

I merely argue then that a Mud Elemental is no different than an Air Elemental for purposes of summoning, per the rules in the CRB.

Shadow Lodge **

I would still wait for the Bestiary 2 to be added to the guide before summoning any elementals from it, though.

Andoran *

The core assumption includes the Core Rulebook and the Beastiary. The core assumption does not include Beastiary 2.

In the CRB, summon monster foo establishes that such creatures are summoned with the celestial or fiendish subtype. Resolute and Entropic are templates in Beastiary 2 that can be used in the summon spells, for games that include these rules elements. PFS currently does not include these rules elements; they cannot be used by PCs without their inclusion.

The core assumptions of the guide include the Beastiary, but does not include them for player use. The only elements of the Beastiary usable by players, according to the guide, are the elements listed in chapter 13. That list includes a list of animal companions and all familiars. It includes nothing else.

I think that it is clearly the intent that the creature descriptions from the Beastiary needed for players to cast permitted spells from the CRB (such as summon monster foo, summon nature's ally foo, etc.), or which are needed to describe a mount, such as a horse, are usable. If nothing else, the player invokes the creature, and the GM uses the Beastiary (which IS within his core assumptions even if not the player's) to explain to the player how to use that creature; that the player might bring the statblock in anticipation is merely a shorthand of that process. Essentially, the rules elements from the Beastiary are included by reference in the CRB.

Admittedly, this could be clearer. However, the attempt to extend the summon families to include the elementals from Beastiary 2 fails. It fails because, not only does Beastiary 2 not appear on the players list in chapater 13, but it doesn't appear on the GM's core assumption either.

At the risk of invoking a bit of hyperbole, the argument presented above is "the listing for what I can use from the Beastiary is messed up, thus I can use any source I want." By that logic, elementals from "The Authoritive Guide to Elementals," written out in longhand and published by in a print run of one copy, currently residing in my back pocket, is likewise a reasonable source. For, would not the argument that TAGtE isn't in chapter 13 claim the same standing as Beastiary 2? (Disclaimer: this isn't an attack on Ricky Bobby, it is merely illustrating a logical gap, hopefully with a bit of humor.)

Personally, I wouldn't mind some additional diversity for summoning characters, but within PFS, that diversity isn't available at this time.

Paizo Employee ** Developer

See James Jacobs's post on the subject here.

If the available monsters and templates for summon X spells ever change beyond the elements presented in the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary, they will be called out specifically in our official list of additional legal material.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

I can see why JJ said what he said, but Ricky Bobby's comments about the elementals seems to be valid. When Bestiary II is added to the list of legal material, I think there needs to be a note regarding the other elemental types. If left up to the GM's/coordinators, I see some inconsistency will occur from table to table.

Paizo Employee ** Developer

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

But it's not left up to the GMs/coordinators, just as the inclusion of new feats, spells, and equipment isn't left up to them. Until we say these or any other summons can be used, the four classic elementals (air, earth, fire, and water) are the only four that can be summoned with summon spells. That said, I'll think it over, but I won't make any promises.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Sorry, to be nit-picky, and maybe this would bring some clarity to the development process, but since the spell just shows "Elemental(size)", if/when Bestiary II becomes approved for play, what would preclude the new elemental types from becoming available to summon? If they were a new creature sub-type, like maybe elemental-kin or something, it would not be an issue, but I can easily see that this would become a rules-argument, especially with the lawyers. Since we have identified it prior to becoming an in-game issue, seems like a good opportunity to clarify it in advance to prevent any problems. And a clear understanding with this ruling might be applied to similar, future situations.

Andoran *

Mark and TwilightKnight are talking past each other.

Mark is saying, "This is how it is." He's speaking as the voice of authority.

TwilightKnight is saying, "This is what the rules say." I personally disagree with Twilight, as outlined above.

However, the essential point is that the voice of authority is an insufficient communication tool, as the vast majority of players rely on the text of the guide. And, while I disagree with Twilight and other's perspective on this matter, the point is that the voice of authority needs to be consistant with the text of the guide. The campaign hasn't worked this out yet and needs to do so.

Osirion

TwilightKnight wrote:
Sorry, to be nit-picky, and maybe this would bring some clarity to the development process, but since the spell just shows "Elemental(size)", if/when Bestiary II becomes approved for play, what would preclude the new elemental types from becoming available to summon?

Because the creatures themselves appear in the bestiary 2. The core rule book spells are designed to only be used with the core books. Bestiary 2 isn't a core book, so without specific notation in the bestiary 2, or specific notation about adding them to the list of available summons, those creature types remain unconnected to the summon spells.

Another example? If a book, say the pathfinder players guide to deadly dance, added in the disco energy type, it doesn't mean that you can automatically enchant your weapons to deal disco energy damage without specific comments that allow you to do so.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Magicdealer wrote:
Because the creatures themselves appear in the bestiary 2. The core rule book spells are designed to only be used with the core books. Bestiary 2 isn't a core book, so without specific notation in the bestiary 2, or specific notation about adding them to the list of available summons, those creature types remain unconnected to the summon spells.

What?!? How can you make that assertion? Are you saying that because the Badger is listed in the Bestiary II and not in volume one, that it is not eligible to receive Magic Fang? How about a weapon, say Falcata from the APG. Since it was not part of "core" weapons, is it not eligible to receive weapon enhancements such as flaming? I don't see how this makes any sense.

Magicdealer wrote:
Another example? If a book, say the pathfinder players guide to deadly dance, added in the disco energy type, it doesn't mean that you can automatically enchant your weapons to deal disco energy damage without specific comments that allow you to do so.

If the pathfinder players guide to deadly dance was published, and the guide to organized play listed it as a legal book, unless there was language to the contrary, yes, disco would become a eligible enhancement, just like "corrosive" did when the APG was legalized for society play.

Point #1...The Core Rulebook lists "Elemental,size" as an acceptable creature when using Summon Monster #.
Point #2...There are creatures in the Bestiary II that are of the elemental subtype and therefore qualify under the spell's description.
Point #3...There is no rule that states material released in new books is non-compatible with older material unless it states otherwise. In fact, it is always assumed that material is backward compatible.

I was not attempting to argue with Mark. My point is that clearly Ricky Bobby's interpretation has merit and I happen to agree with it. Therefore, I think it needs to be clarified when the Bestiary II becomes legal for play. Failing to do that will certainly create a potential argument in rule interpretation. Whenever that happens, it becomes the table GM or event organizers responsibility to make a ruling. This would open it up for sometimes yes, sometime no. That is no good for anyone. Knowing that this will be a problem later is, IMO, a great opportunity to be pro-active and resolve it beforehand. Of course, until the Bestiary II becomes legal, this is a moot point.

Osirion

TwilightKnight wrote:


What?!? How can you make that assertion? Are you saying that because the Badger is listed in the Bestiary II and not in volume one, that it is not eligible to receive Magic Fang? How about a weapon, say Falcata from the APG. Since it was not part of "core" weapons, is it not eligible to receive weapon enhancements such as flaming? I don't see how this makes any sense.

Yep. If the badger, or the weapon, isn't approved for PFS play, then you can't do anything with it. And every animal is not automatically a familiar or animal companion unless they are explicitly denoted as one.

Quote:
If the pathfinder players guide to deadly dance was published, and the guide to organized play listed it as a legal book, unless there was language to the contrary, yes, disco would become a eligible enhancement, just like "corrosive" did when the APG was legalized for society play.

Nope. The apg contained specific text listing corrosive as an enchantment. Lacking that section in the magical items part of the APG, corrosive would NOT be a weapon enhancement. Instead, it would just be another energy type. Just because the book doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can. And yes, I know that it works in reverse as well :)

Quote:
Point #1...The Core Rulebook lists "Elemental,size" as an acceptable creature when using Summon Monster #.

Counterpoint #1... The core rulebook is intended to be used with the bestiary, and references to monsters in the core rulebook relate specifically to the bestiary.

Quote:
Point #2...There are creatures in the Bestiary II that are of the elemental subtype and therefore qualify under the spell's description.

Counterpoint #2...There are also 1hd creatures that could be used as pcs, but we don't assume that we can use them as such. The same logic applies. Non-approved monsters just can't be used. :/

Quote:
Point #3...There is no rule that states material released in new books is non-compatible with older material unless it states otherwise. In fact, it is always assumed that material is backward compatible.

Counterpoint #3 Pathfinder Society actually does have a rule like that. Can't use it until it's been approved and appears in the guide as such.

Quote:
I was not attempting to argue with Mark. My point is that clearly Ricky Bobby's interpretation has merit and I happen to agree with it. Therefore, I think it needs to be clarified when the Bestiary II becomes legal for play....

I think this needs clarification. Ricky Bobby argues that he should be able to summon elementals from the bestiary 2, and disagrees with someone (auke) who tells him that it's impossible at least until the bestiary 2 becomes legal for pfs play. This is in his third post.

Random observation: most mentions of creatures in the CRB - such as familiars, animal companions, and even a few spells like awaken, shambler, plant shape, and more - have direct references to the bestiary. The summon monster and summon nature's ally spells are conspicuously lacking this reference.

Random observation two: The average resting height of a cryptic moth is 8 feet, from a range of 4-12 feet.

Andoran ***

PFSOP page 34 wrote:

Pathfinder RPG Bestiary:

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat,
dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog,
goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon,
rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus;
Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131–133; Feats: none of the feats
are legal for play

From the above, the only things from the Bestiary legal for play are the above listed items, and the creatures explicitly allowed through the legal spells that summon monsters/nature's ally.

Bestiary 2, when and IF, will undoubtedly get an entry like the above, and only the things/creatures explicitly allowed will be legal, and, until it IS listed, NOTHING from the bestiary 2 is legal for PCs in Pathfinder Society play.

Heck, at present, nothing from the Halflings book is legal for PFS play...

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

The key focus here is that this is not currently an issue as the Bestiary II is not yet approved for society play. My entire argument is based on the expectation that it will be approved. Should that occur, this issue will become relevant. My comments are based on (1) the book becoming legalized, and (2) no language is added to clarify this issue.

Magicdealer wrote:
Yep. If the badger, or the weapon, isn't approved for PFS play, then you can't do anything with it. And every animal is not automatically a familiar or animal companion unless they are explicitly denoted as one.

I am not referring to animal companions or familiars. Those are specifically listed in their respective tables. I am referring specifically to the Summon Monster table. As I stated, if a book, such as the APG is listed in the PFS Guide as approved, the entire book is legal for play unless language is added to remove certain parts. This has been the case for all books since the beginning.

Magicdealer wrote:
Nope. The apg contained specific text listing corrosive as an enchantment. Lacking that section in the magical items part of the APG, corrosive would NOT be a weapon enhancement. Instead, it would just be another energy type. Just because the book doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can. And yes, I know that it works in reverse as well :)

I don't follow your comment. The corrosive energy type is listed in the APG. Once the book was made legal for play, that enhancement also becomes legal to use unless the PFS Guidebook specifically exempts it.

Magicdealer wrote:
Counterpoint #1... The core rulebook is intended to be used with the bestiary, and references to monsters in the core rulebook relate specifically to the bestiary.

That smells like an interpretation. Can you site where the rules in the Core Book only apply to the Bestiary? What makes the Bestiary I any more "core" than the Bestiary II? IT's not a 3PP nor is it a campaign specific release. You could make such an argument for material from individual modules or Adventure Paths, but I do not believe that it would apply to "core" releases like the CRB, APG, BI, BII, or GMG.

Magicdealer wrote:
Counterpoint #2...There are also 1hd creatures that could be used as pcs, but we don't assume that we can use them as such. The same logic applies. Non-approved monsters just can't be used. :/

Not the same point (apples vs. oranges). I am not adding unlisted creatures to the summoning list nor am I trying to use a new race for a PC. Both of those situations are specifically outlawed. However, the elementals in the new book meet the exact same criteria as the ones in the Bestiary I. If the summoning table listed fire/earth/water/air as the creature type instead of just "elemental" than we would be attempting to add new creatures to the list to use the Bestiary II. The RAW in the Core Rulebook do not indicate they are specific to the Bestiary I.

Magicdealer wrote:
Random observation: most mentions of creatures in the CRB - such as familiars, animal companions, and even a few spells like awaken, shambler, plant shape, and more - have direct references to the bestiary. The summon monster and summon nature's ally spells are conspicuously lacking this reference.

And that is my point. There are specific tables listing acceptable familiars, companions, etc. And if a spell is intended to be used with a specific type or sub-type of creature, its description states as such. In this specific instance, the CRB, does not specifically state what elementals can be summoned. A Magma Elemental is the same as a Fire Elemental with respect to the summing spell. That is the point I am trying to make.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Callarek wrote:

From the above, the only things from the Bestiary legal for play are the above listed items, and the creatures explicitly allowed through the legal spells that summon monsters/nature's ally.

Bestiary 2, when and IF, will undoubtedly get an entry like the above, and only the things/creatures explicitly allowed will be legal, and, until it IS listed, NOTHING from the bestiary 2 is legal for PCs in Pathfinder Society play.

This will become a rules-lawyering issue. According to the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play there is nothing stating that it can be applied to summoning spells. However, we all know that is the intent. As I stated in my previous post, I am not implying that simply legalizing the Bestiary II will grant additional companions, etc. I expect there would be language similar to that of the Bestiary I listing you quoted. That does not stop the argument that the elementals from BII would be legal for summoning.

**

Howie23 wrote:
However, the essential point is that the voice of authority is an insufficient communication tool, as the vast majority of players rely on the text of the guide.

QFT. This is a weakness of the PFS organized play system at present.

Howie23 wrote:
And, while I disagree with Twilight and other's perspective on this matter, the point is that the voice of authority needs to be consistant with the text of the guide. The campaign hasn't worked this out yet and needs to do so.

Agreed. I also see ambiguity that will result in table discrepancies unless a rule clearer than Mark's "no" in this thread is promulgated.


WelbyBumpus wrote:


Howie23 wrote:
The campaign hasn't worked this out yet and needs to do so.
Agreed. I also see ambiguity that will result in table discrepancies unless a rule clearer than Mark's "no" in this thread is promulgated.

+1.

Worse you will have people say things along the lines 'I read it on the boards that _____ said _____'.

While it may or may not be true (or even somewhere in between), it leads to pure chaos for an 'organized' campaign and very inconsistent rulings from table to table.

I'd humbly suggest a scheduled and periodic FAQ system to back up a scheduled and periodic guide edition publishing schedule.

-James

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Hyrum/Mark have already stated that an FAQ system for PFS is in the works. Based on the wide range of players, it is probably a major undertaking, so we should be patient. However, in the mean time, when we identify a situation, especially with new release material like the Bestiary II, it shouldn't be too much effort to add a clarifying line to the legalization entry in Chapter 13. The Guide would be getting updated anyway and this would prevent a known potential issue from becoming a problem during game play. This was the point I was trying to make. Of course, they could just not make the Bestiary II legal, and this issue would be moot.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

casts thread resurrection

So, now that Bestiary II & III are considered core assumption and have legal listing in the additional resources that exactly follow the format of the Bestary I listing, there appears to be no "official" errata or FAQ (outside of a couple of posts from Mark) covering the fact that casters are only permitted to summon elementals from BI, excluding BII & III. Not to mention other similar spells like planar ally, etc.

Should we assume that you [b]can[/i] now select those options or do we need a rule listing in those entries specifically denying it?

*

Thanks for bring it back to life for a final vitals check. I have a high lvl Conjuration Wizard who awaits the final decision. From my point of view there are now no rules preventing the summoning of elementals from the Bestiary II and III as long as they fit the size conditions. I think until an actual ruling arrives or or they pass on the new FAQ request I will play it on a table by table basis.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Lab_Rat wrote:
From my point of view there are now no rules preventing the summoning of elementals from the Bestiary II and III as long as they fit the size conditions. I think until an actual ruling arrives or or they pass on the new FAQ request I will play it on a table by table basis.

Mark has stated in this thread that you cannot summon elementals from BII/III. You and I are aware of it by nature of having posted in this thread. To ignore the RAI, which is clear based on what Mark stated just because the ruling does not appear in an "official" location is, IMO, wrong. Granted, I hope he/they change the rule to allow additional summoning options, but in the meantime, everyone should restrict their actions to what Mark has stated is legal. If *you* run across someone who is summoning illegally, we have a responsibility to notify them.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Lab_Rat wrote:
Thanks for bring it back to life for a final vitals check. I have a high lvl Conjuration Wizard who awaits the final decision. From my point of view there are now no rules preventing the summoning of elementals from the Bestiary II and III as long as they fit the size conditions. I think until an actual ruling arrives or or they pass on the new FAQ request I will play it on a table by table basis.

You're looking at it wrong. It's not what the rules say you can't do. It's what the Campaign Guidelines including the Additional Resources say you can. Right now,what you want is not listed on the "YOU CAN DO This" list.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

LazarX wrote:
You're looking at it wrong. It's not what the rules say you can't do. It's what the Campaign Guidelines including the Additional Resources say you can. Right now,what you want is not listed on the "YOU CAN DO This" list.

Actually, if you review the entries in the Additional Resources, you'll see that the text for BI is presented exactly the same as BII/III. No where does it specifically state that you can summon monsters from BI. That info is only present in the spell description in the CRB and that entry does not specifically reference from where you get the stats of the summoned monsters. While it is quite specific on which monsters can be summoned, there is one exception. It merely lists elementals, [size] in the table. With BII/III being added to the core assumption, it is easy to argue that elementals from those books are legal. They do, in fact, fulfill all the requirements for summoning based on the text of the spell descriptions. This is not an issue of expanding a summoning list, it is an issue with a generalized entry in the existing list.

Personally, I see no issue at all to allow the elementals from BII/III to be summoned as those in BI. And the beauty is that you don't even have to make any changes to the rules that are already in print. Outside of Mark's comments in this forum, there is nothing that would indicate those elementals are not legal.

If we do not want those elementals to be legal, then we should make a modification to the BII/III entries to indicate as such. Or at least an FAQ entry.

*

JJ pointed out that the summon monster list wouldn't be expanded and that what was written was what we had to work with but he never tackled the issue of elemental ambiguity. You had obviously pointed out the issue of elementals and that by raw they would apply when the BII and BIII were added to the additional resources. I figured that if and when they added the BII and BIII to the additional resources list they would let us know how these worked within the campaign. I guess I just made the assumption that because they didn't go about specifically banning a piece of RAW or writting the BII/III sections differently that it was a legal choice.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Lab_Rat wrote:
I guess I just made the assumption that because they didn't go about specifically banning a piece of RAW or writting the BII/III sections differently that it was a legal choice.

And IMO, a legitimate perspective. We have to be aware that most player do not frequent the forums so making a ruling here, while helpful, is not ideal. The current appearance is that you can summon the expanded elementals. If we are going to ban that, we need to make an entry in one of the official locations such that the casual player and/or organizer is more likely to see it.

Personally, I keep a printed copy of the Guide, errata, Additional Resources, & FAQ with me for reference, but I do not keep forum posts.

Lab_Rat wrote:
JJ pointed out that the summon monster list wouldn't be expanded and that what was written was what we had to work with

Again, that only exists in the forums. There is also precedence for CRB lists to be expanded. Weapon groups for fighters is one of those.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

What JJ was talking about is not really relevant to what Bob is asking.

JJ was speaking to not add new Specific Monsters to the list that are in B II and III.

In other words instead of what is on the Summon list, new monsters that were not around when the lists were made.

This however does not address Elementals which can be any Elementals because it is not specific to the Elemental. So in a Normal game you can summon and Elemental from the Bestiaries, which does not require any kind of update to the list when they add Elementals in other books.

Bob just wants to know if B II and III are open for Summon spells for Elementals.

I would say yes. If your basis for saying no is because it does not state in additional resources they are authorized for summon spell, then you can't summon anything since it does not say Bestiary 1 is authorized for summoning.

*

Dragnmoon wrote:

What JJ was talking about is not really relevant to what Bob is asking.

JJ was speaking to not add new Specific Monsters to the list that are in B II and III.

In other words instead of what is on the Summon list, new monsters that were not around when the lists were made.

This however does not address Elementals which can be any Elementals because it is not specific to the Elemental. So in a Normal game you can summon and Elemental from the Bestiaries, which does not require any kind of update to the list when they add Elementals in other books.

Bob just wants to know if B II and III are open for Summon spells for Elementals.

I would say yes. If your basis for saying no is because it does not state in additional resources they are authorized for summon spell, then you can't summon anything since it does not say Bestiary 1 is authorized for summoning.

We are all in agreement here. The issue however, is that as written (looking at the Core, Bestiaries I II and III, and the additional resources document) we can summon elementals from BII and BIII. However, Mark earlier in this thread specifically said that we can only summon those elementals found in the BI. This was stated after Bob brought up the ambiguity of elementals. So on one hand we have RAW and on the other hand we have post from Mark law which we are supposed to follow until it is RAW.

Edit: Appropriate Mark quote that is causing this ambiguity.
"Until we say these or any other summons can be used, the four classic elementals (air, earth, fire, and water) are the only four that can be summoned with summon spells."

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Uggg, Missed the Mark Quote...

That is a bit annoying since it does not fit the current wording of everything.

Grand Lodge ****

Lab_Rat wrote:

Edit: Appropriate Mark quote that is causing this ambiguity.

"Until we say these or any other summons can be used, the four classic elementals (air, earth, fire, and water) are the only four that can be summoned with summon spells."

Wow OK, I thought that Lightning Elemental seemed a bit off as a summons.

Cheliax *

Y'know.

Having "X Monster from Bestiary II/III added to Y Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally List" would be a really sweet Chronicle Boon.

Just sayin'.

Taldor **

bdk86 wrote:

Y'know.

Having "X Monster from Bestiary II/III added to Y Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally List" would be a really sweet Chronicle Boon.

Just sayin'.

+1, but I am wee bit biased on the summoning angle :)

*

So, unless someone digs through the forums to find this post, any reasonable person would expect to be able to summon elementals from sources outside of the Bestiary.

Nice

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wouldn't mind seeing this added to the FAQ, because I really did have to dredge the forums to find this out.

*

Mergy wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing this added to the FAQ, because I really did have to dredge the forums to find this out.

Can we do this please. This is one of the biggest unpublished deviations from RAW in PFS, so if they really don't want people summoning the new elementals they should FAQ it because I suspect that most DMs who are unaware of this thread just go with RAW and let people use the elementals.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For those curious, Sean answered a question of mine about this.

*

I would love to see expanded summon lists to include Bestiary 2 & 3 at some point.

Grand Lodge

Hi,
is there any new Info about that topic ?
The last Dev Answer was from Mark Moreland in 2011, in a time, when (correct me if i'm wrong) the Bestiary II was not yet included in the Additional Ressources List.

Now it is.

The Bestiary II entry in the Additional Ressources also specifies a list of creatures which is now legal for one thing or another (Familiars, Beast Shape etc.), so, how about the Elementals/Mephits ?

I'm not talking about adding entirely new Monsters to the Summon Monster spell, just to clarify the entry which reads "Elementals", if other Elementals (specificially from the BII: Mud, Lightning, Magma, Ice) are balanced enough and legal for PFS.

Regards,
Calimar.

***** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

No change to that ruling has been made, so Mark's post still stands. The only elementals that can be summoned are the ones in Bestiary 1.

Outside of Animal Companions and Familiars, the newer Bestiaries only affect Polymorph subschool spells and Wild Shape form options.

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